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Networking in the Danger Zone?
Croaker-bg asks: "I currently am an Information Security/ Network Engineer for a large government contract firm and have recently seen several solicitations come across email regarding gigs in the Middle East and surrounding regions, including both Iraq and Afghanistan. Understanding that the pay might be good for being willing to face the hazards, I continue to have my curiosity perked by these short-term jaunts. Lately however, the news of fellow contractors being abducted has put a new spin on the hazards of working abroad in these areas. Has anyone survived such a trip and lived to tell the tale with a fat wallet? If so, would you consider doing it again or is it just to dangerous?"
you cant spend money when your dead.
Seriously. Mods - hear me out before hitting "troll." Stand on the street and sell weed. You would make a lot of money. Yes, it's true that if things go badly you end up in jail. But if things go badly in Iraq, you end up dead. Death is permanent. With jail, you get out after a year or two, and you have a chance to put your life back together.
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I wouldn't go. When you are in the military at least you have a gun and can shoot back. As a contractor, your kind of on your own.
I'd go. How do I sign up? Monster doesn't really carry that kind of stuff, and some basic Google searches didn't turn up much. Do I email Halliburton or something?
You have to ask yourself the (deliberatley skewed left by me) question "Is the lure of money so great on me that I would leave my country to work somewhere where they are kidnapping people exactly like me?
This isn't an opportunity. You aren't "helping shape a newborn government" or whatever. Even if you're Christian, Iraq is the oldest place on earth. If you need the money, do it. Otherwise, don't.
--
The last digit of pi is four.
Your life is worth infintely more than any amount of money. People who do this must be crazy. Do you really want to be beheaded because you want a new Mercedes?
Might be of use to you on your trip.
but every time I start giving it some real thought someone else gets abducted and murdered. I don't know what the pay rate is, i'm more interested in just the experience but i dunno if i'm confotable with the risks.
..maybe northern Iraq with the Kurds, from what i understand things are pretty stable there.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
Ask this guy: http://www.savagenet.com/expat/viewforum.php?f=1
I don't know, i would not risk my life for money, you chance being abducted is probably higher than wining lottery jackpot. As you said you already have a stable job, i don't understand why you would want to leave all that behind?
This Sig is removed due to factual inaccuracy
That's all I have to say.
I don't think that they are ready for the geek brigades yet; let the Army communications officers handle it until it dies down. I'm sure they'll still pay handily in a few months.
OTOH, you'd probably be in the back someplace... but you never know...
"Thank you. Please spellcheck your genitalia references though.
Tellllnet into the danger zone!
Tom Cruise would be so proud of me.
Click here for a free picture of an iPod!
Before people were taken as hostages, now they are being taken as sacrifices (in a way). I don't think theres many ways we can apply old stories to Afganistan and Iraq.
Money is worth alot but it can't buy you back your life.
I like muppets.
While I have never been there, nor do I have a job in networking, or one at all, all I can say is that you should never travel or work alone. Find a way to get some protection. Get a gun, and some self-defence classes before you go. I have been in Middle East. I have lived in Israel for a few years and got an Israeli citizenship.
...they would get me to go: Arm me to the teeth, and train me in the proper use of the weapon(s). If I had to go over there as a civilian, I want to be an armed one. If, however, they want to put me in a military uniform to go, that's okay with me.
The al-Quaeda fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
Many of us in the military, especially the one's seperating from the military, are getting these same offers. Its definitely tempting to some of these guys but all of them passed on it. Who wants to go do their same job that they were doing in the military and not have at least some sort of self protection, ie. M16, M9 pistol, squad of Marines behind you......
Big props go to you guys who are not letting the terrorists scare you away. You are indeed pioneers! It's like the ole west over there with money to be made in the face of great danger.
If you can look at those pictures on drudge and still bring yourself to go... you deserve the big dollars for your brass balls.
Those people are living in a phucked up world right now... they need honest people over there to help them... and to let them know that the basic American is not the military that they fear.
AC
1u servers can be useful as weapons in the event of an attempted abduction.
Steps to avoid abduction.
1.) Yank server out of cabinet
2.) Lift server over head
3.) Strike assailent with server.
4.) Repeat as necessary
If you play the lottery, you are less likely to win than to be killed in those places, but if you win you will get a whole lot more money. Uhm... I'm going to bed.
you can't spend it if your head gets cut off
You can die anywhere you are at any time for any number of reasons. Like that Northen Exposure episode where the satellite falls on the guy... What's your likelihood of being abducted by terrorists in Saudi Arabia? Not very high. Even if you are there. Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die.
You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live.
If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die.
Myself, I don't spend any time worrying about it.
When you're fighting for broadband, it's always a WAR!
I had the chance to work in Johannesburg. At the time it was "the most dangerous city in the world outside of a war zone." I was there for 4 months, and it was one of the best experiences of my life. While there, my co-worker was on a contract on New York. This was around 9-11... He saw the towers fall in person. You can die anyplace. Be careful, take precautions, be aware, and you have a better chance. Do the math... How many people have been killed in New York in the last 6 months? The risks may be higher in the mid-east, but how much higher? Especially with you watching everything around you?
Its highly recommended to forget it, because you are on the list of targets (your type specifically), there is no money on earth that can give you your life back, nor do you take any money to the other side whatever you consider it be.
And be sure if it was my country that was in the situation of afghanistan, iraq or saudi, I would most probably be out hunting or helping hunters, and im quite an average joe.
NO NO No and more no.
You are not a target for some whack-job and their Whoopie-knife. Keep your head right where it belongs, atop your shoulders.
Greed, quite literally, KILLS these days.
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
Greed is a dangerous thing. And now, you can die for it. Make a risky business move, do something that hasn't been done before and see where that takes you. Don't risk risk your life.
Actually, do if you want. I wouldn't.
what is nailchipper?
see this gallery of a contractor's 1year stint in afghanistan.
http://www.darchiver.com/gallery/Vince
well, some personal pics in there as well. skip those.
Dump the IRS - http://www.fairtax.org
I know of several former coworkers who are there right now. You can chech out two of their websites here and here. I have been approached by these companies as well, and my expedited passport ($188.00) should be here next week. $120K/yr is too enticing for me to pass this up. Additionally, if you're doing IT work and are worried about danger, pick Kuwait as it is the safest environment. I'm married with two kids, and this certainly seems like a good option for mom to finally have a house. Keep in mind that the captured contractors mostly put themselves in danger by being in open public areas... IT guys are very well protected, probably because they are required to have an active secret clearance.
If I weren't so hard-of-hearing, and getting married in a month, and had the right technical skills, I'd go down there.
There's been what, two contractors killed/kidnapped? Out of how many thousands that are there? Those are pretty good odds. I face greater odds of death driving to work each day.
Definately. Give me a good life insurance policy, and good pay. in the end my family is OK either way. And for me...thats the bottom line. Right now-what if I get sick? my family would be destitute, what good would I be? A good insurance policy and good pay would guarentee my family a income. Yeah it would be nice for em to be around, but really....its all about the money.
Please consider the moral issues that derive from making money off a war and its reconstruction. Do you want to be part of the military-industrial complex, to join the likes of Haliburton or Kellog, Brown & Root? Do you want to be a war profiteer?
I'd recommend you listen to the 06/06/2004 episode of This American Life which devotes an entire hour to stories of civilian contractors and mercs in Iraq. I believe it would answer your questions and you should be able to download it for free from http://www.thislife.org/
if the position comes with an adequate arsenal,
;)
i'd go for it (the only problem with military i have is that they own your ass, so a contract is never as long as you thought)
BTW - yes, i am a geek, and yes I am a killer
First let me state that I personally have no first hand experience in a situation like this, except that when I was a kid growing up my father was a similar contractor and, since this was the seventies, my family was dragged along as well. That never happens anymore. But I was in Iraq in 1979 before the Iran-Iraq war and remember leaving just before the war broke out. Right now my father is in a similar situation about a job in Indonesia where the company is currently facing people leaving (ironically I was born at that same jobsite).
Okay. It depends upon the security arrangements. First of all working in a second or third world country is very cool. There's nothing like the culture shock while at the same time being an expert compared to most people around you. Second, there is a big difference between having to work outside a secure compound and working inside the compound. If your inside the compound, changes are you'll spend most of your time there is a pretty secure environment and the only time you'll leave is to go on vacation to Dubai or someplace like that and have a significantly better chance at meeting some rich heiress that if you worked in the states.
One the other hand, if you're working outside a secure compound (like for example as a civil or petrolium engineer), make sure your paid well. While you'll still be pretty secure, you never know what'll happen. That being said, when they say that contractors are being targetting, they really are talking about security contractors who are ex navy seal types.
-?-
Being a civilian contractor, I know several civilian government personell who have gone to Iraq for 2 weeks or so to do a specific job. From their reports, it isn't too terrible, as long as you say within the fortified military establishments that are designated for civilian contractors. The two Americans that have been kidnapped have been outside those areas for extended periods of time.
In the end, it's all up to you and what you think you are accomplishing. My personal choice is to not do it, but ultimately it is your choice.
I recently got back from Kosovo (though I was there with the Army, not a contractor unfortunately). It's safe enough to hang out in town during the days, and the pay is still pretty good. It was rumored that some Brown & Root employees were making $80k for sitting in a watch tower. I'm sure IT guys would bank better than that.
As far as the Middle East, I think you could remain pretty safe if you just kept to yourself and didn't do too much playing around outside of the base.
On a related note, I would like to see a comparison of the daily murder rate in Iraq compared to the daily murder rate for an inner-city such as, oh, let's say Detroit. Granted, beheading is a bit worse than a drive-by, but it's not like it's an every-day thing.
It's your life. If you feel comfortable about being in a situation where your chances of losing your life increase dramatically, and if you think that you're being adequately compensated for the risks that you're taking, then go ahead and take the assignment.
But if possibly becoming a target, or even being the unfortunate victim of a friendly fire incident, makes your stomach churn then don't do it.
These are warzones that you're talking about. Don't step into one because someone else says that they'd do it, step into one because you know that you're comfortable doing it. You only have one life, so don't lead it according to how someone else would lead their's.
Bottom line: is the job worth potentially dying for? Only you can answer that for yourself.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Or you have death wish.
I'm not sure if the 8 ball is trying to tell you to avoid Iraq or stop using Microsoft Outlook. Either is sound advice in my opinion. ;)
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
I wouldn't go, even if I had the bear proof suit.
(S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))
"A contractor's personal politics play heavily when choosing jobs."
funny, i was just wondering how id go about getting a job over there.
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
If work can be so easily ousourced to other countries, then have those jobs your looking at 'outsourced' to you, without you having to be there physically.
the other guy was an Afghan POW, not Iraqi civilian.
/." question -- I think that the editors are either in very-long-latency mode or entirely detached from the rest of the world. The poor guy was killed today!
To contribute to the grandparent's discussion, as far as I know you are kind of supposed to know how to deal with a gun if you are a civilian contractor down there, or at least carry it. (Got the story from a lady working for one of the aerospace companies who was visiting Iraq briefly, and she told that you are given a gun to hold and at least pretend that you know how to use it).
As to the actual 'Ask
To answer the question, I guess that my wife would not let me go there...
Paul B.
Yes, the Middle East is a dangerous place right now. (Particularly for Westerners.) However, people do have a tendency of exaggerating the danger because of the context.
For example: just a few years ago, seven people were gunned down at a computer engineering firm in Massachusetts. But if I were offered a job in Massachusetts, I doubt that questions of personal safety would even enter my mind.
Of course I'm not saying the Middle East is safer than Massachusetts (though if it keeps you from eating at McDonald's too often, it may well be)! But don't let high profile shock stories bias your judgement too much.
The Washington Post - Faces of the Fallen
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
The problem with that arrangement is that if there are profits to be made from the teat of the US taxpayer (or local oil money), the Corps of Engineers cannot provide them.
If you have a wife/children, don't do it. No matter what happened to you - even if you came back after a few months with a great tan and a fat wallet - your time there would be hell for them. If you're on your own, then you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to risk it.
It's been outsourced . . .
I don't mean to be negative man, but if you're stupid enough to even consider going over there, then maybe you should go. You would be doing us all a favor by removing youself from the gene pool.
Nonetheless, there have been times in my life when I've risked all. Sometimes the pay was good, sometimes I was the one doing the paying.
You see, I did them because I wanted to, not for the money. The thing itself scratched my itch.
So there it is. If you got an email and instantly thought to yourself, "Hot Goddam Puppies! I'm going to Afghanistan. Martha, oil my AK-47. "Old Betsy" has got some work to do," well, what are you doing here asking questions for? You know you want to go. Take whatever deal they give you. Have fun. Keep your head down and wear a cup.
That doesn't appear to be you. You want to know if it might be worth the money, to which I have just one question of my own:
Are you frickin' NUTS???
KFG
Don't shoot, I'm Canadian!
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
This American Life (on NPR) ran a pretty good documentary on this subject a few weeks back. It's available in Realaudio format on the web. It's an hour long though. The archive page is Here. Or go to the audio directly.
Homer no function beer well without.
If so, I definitely think you should go for it...
Those contractors were hired mercenaries recruited from the ranks of our very own special forces ($$$$$), who are not subject to international laws of the Geneva convention.
They are flown into Kajikistan on commercial airlines such as Contenental (know one pilot) then escort their clients wherever they need to go in the region. From what I gather, one such client is Halliburton.
That's one reason they were slaughtered, butchered, and hung from bridges in Iraq when they are captured. Of course the news shows those dangling bodies and says "poor contractors" and we are left thinking, "oh no, those poor souls trying to restore services to the Iraqis."
You won't be any sort of contractor such as they, I wouldn't worry.
It should be obvious that it's not worth it.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Everyone is bitching about outsourcing of jobs to India, but this is one area where I'm sure us Indians would:
:)
1. Have a marked advantage (able to blend into the local population, and be less conspicuous than a white person)
2. Americans would actually WANT for others to take their place, so they don't have to put their asses themselves on the line.
So, how about it? Bring the business our way!
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
Sure they're offering you 6 digits, but for every bullet, building, and life that is spent over there, on the Bush family's pet war, makes these guys (see shadow government) a ton more wealthy (somewhere in the neighborhood of oh, 11 digits). The Bush family is profiting from this war at the expense of America and Americans.
Your life isn't worth it
Bush isn't worth it
I'm betting no as it's thousands per week (not a typo)
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Besides the money (which are great to get/have/spend) I think it would be a nice experience to have worked in a such situation. And to have it on your resume wouldn't hurt when looking for other work. As others have pointed out, you could get killed slipping in you own bathtub.
Never the less. If you go to an unstable region do see to it that you have a guide/guard with you and don't dess up like a tourist with clothes screaming "HI, EVERYBODY! I'M A FOREIGNER! PLEASE KILL ME!".
There's two sides to having a gun. One side is the obvious that you can defend yourself. But it also makes you a target to others with guns.
A relative of mine worked as a teacher in a high security prison. While he had his thoughts about the risks (the interns where killers, rapists and the like) he found that in the end the experience/money outweighted the risk. That's the same math you'll have to make.
I wouldn't go only for the money.
I have a friend (USAF retired ) in Saudi now, as a contractor associated with aircraft, and he's bailing.
Money fades. Bullet holes don't.
If the money is good enough, I'll take the risk.
This is my sig.
A smaller active duty force, with the same or more work, means more and more has to be outsourced.
We've been cutting back on the military for years.
Is it enough to fix your life? Buy a house for you and your SO and a family? Maybe enough to relocate to be with an SO somewhere far away? Enough to put your kids through college? Enough to support your parents as they get older?
It's not the money so much as what you can get with it. You're risking your life. People risk theirs every day by just crossing the street to work, the only difference here is the magnitude of the risk and payoff. As to whether the payoff is worth the risk, that really depends its size and your needs. People on here are going to scream no amount of money is enough but sometimes it is, if it ensures the things you really need in your life. But that's something unique to each person.
If it's really good pay I might be interested in going myself. I failed out of college, and I want a second chance. I love someone who's all but homeless in a 3rd world country. My car keeps falling apart and I'm too broke to fix it. I'm sick of living at home. I could find a good use for alot of money and my IT skills are pretty good. Anyone know where you inquire about this kinda thing?
Introducing the new Occam Fusion! Now with sqrt(-1) fewer blades!
Who truly hate their life, and might be quasi-suicidal, might look at it as an opportunity for drastic change, without a considerable downside.
I would go, but first I would do the following, 1) Make sure I was throughly trained in both armed and unarmed combat, 2) Learn Arabic 3) Grow a beard 4) Buy and wear clothing indicative to the area.
Seiriously, that way I could blend into my surrondings, and as long as I made an attempt at speaking Arabic in the local accent, I wouldn't stand out nearly as bad as other contracters in jeans and a t shirt, unsaven, speaking english. It would decrease the chances of me being captured tremenusly, as the terrorists would go for the consipicious types first.
All of you are cowards who have told him not to go. Where would the world be today if people have not taken some risks and go to a far off land. From Columbus to the Pioneers, all generations of people have taken risky and dangerous adventures to benift from. And t's not like everyone over there is getting abducted. There are thousands of foreign civilians over in Iraq today. If you stay away from alleyways and stay in groups, you should be fine. Not only is the pay good, but you will also being going over to one of the most historical and sifnificant regions of our world. Most of these people on here haven't even left their Mom's basement.
Computer stuff in the Army... is the Signals Branch. Not the Corps of Engineers.
.... don't know.
USAF are "Combat Communications Groups" or "Com" units suplimented with regular base level "com" people from "Communcations Squadrons" from various bases.
Navy and Marines
And of course there are some exceptions to what I just wrote.
Moderators, so only one person may send their thanks to those who put their lives in danger to help others?
BoldAC, sorry about the redundant from whoever. Dang if mod points are never around when you need them!
My subject is very forward but true.
A co-worker of mine is from India. We were talking about the the tension between India and Pakistan and the tragic incident of Paul Johnson when it changed to about doing contract work in the Middle East. She had mentioned how one her friends was recently offered a job in that region with pay of around $2,500 per day with a total stay of about a week.
My eyes widened at how high the pay was...then it sort of made sense. There's a risk to your life, a possibe fatal and brutal one. We both agreed that going to the Middle East in its current state is highly dangerous. You'd have to be needing the money real bad to make such a decision.
Imagine the feeling of a hand gripping your hair and pulling your head back. Imagine a dull, rusty knife sawing its way through the skin, tendon, and bone of your neck. Imagine your agonizing screams suddenly cut off as the blade penetrates your larynx. Imagine no longer being able to scream, but the agony continuing as the Muslim fanatic hacks off your head. Imagine your last sight being the video camera they're using to film your murder.
Imagine that stuff, and realize it could very well happen to you. If you're cool with that risk, then go.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
I'd go.
I've thought about working in Saudi Arabia before, but have never pursued it. Someone I knew years ago spent time there and loved it.
Of course, I'd try to be somewhat careful about my safety even at the best of times.
If they gave me a rifle and plenty of ammo - I'd do it.
(19D/11B MOUT Instructer in a previous life)
If they tried to take me - a lot of them would be dead, and I wouldn't be in custody - although I might be dead; no one is invincible. If the money was in the 7 digits, it might be worth the chance - take out a life insurance policy before you go - either way your family makes out like bandits. Your odds of being captured or killed is very low when you consider the total number of contractors working in the region - akin to being struck by lightning.
The key is to keep a low profile - don't advertise that you are an anglo technician - wear a baggy burkha to conceal your features and weapons (who gives a f*** if they think you are a woman when you move around - your rifle will make them think twice if they decide to get fresh).
However, I doubt they are paying over $1 million for technicians...
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
...that getting shot is painless.
it's not, i assure you.
I heard this on Canadian TV a few days ago.
Apparently, the American Military in Iraq decided to do a poll on the feelings of Iraqis towards Americans. The TV report claimed that the results were so negative that the poll was kept secret, unfortunately the results were leaked.
It didn't seem to differ too much whether the Americans were military, civilian or what!
I would conclude that any American in Iraq for any reason is a moving, potential disaster zone.
If you must go, appear as un-American as possible. Grow a beard, dye your hair dark, learn Arabic and convert to Islam. Memorize the phrase, translated into Arabic, "I am a Canadian, really I am!".
On the other hand, never, never claim, in any language to anybody on either side, "I am a friend of Ahmad Chalabi!".
...but if you get abducted and beheaded, don't expect me to shed a tear. I have little sympathy for the carpet-baggers currently over around Iraq's moribund corpse.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
What kind of name is phpBB anyway?
Well, it's a better name than pcpBB.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
6) Profit!
Getting tired of Slashdot... moving to Usenet comp.misc for a while.
it really is sad how true this is...well, not that some white guy that smells bad could be confused with a native...but well, you know.
Some of us enjoy doing dangerous things. MOST of us live to tell our grandchildren about it.
1 - Don't learn by experience. My employer spent a lot of money on survival training for me.
2 - www.survivaliq.com/survival/introduction.htm I wouldn't rely on just reading this but it's better than nothing.
3 - Make sure you are totally backed up. If they want something bad enough, they will supply you with whatever you need to be safe. I'm sorry but working alone on a cellphone tower in hostile territory ain't going to happen.
4 - Make absolutely sure that you have transport out.
I spent a lot of time camped on the ice in the arctic. Every year there were 'adventurers' and 'explorers' who insisted on tackling a very hostile environment without enough resources behind them. We didn't admire their heroism, we scoffed at their stupidity. We were really serious about safety. Our camp had twice daily radio checks to our depot. Everybody out on the ice had hourly radio checks. Everybody had a gun in case of polar bears. We always wore survival suits when flying over water. We never went out alone. We always returned safely.
About a year ago, I purchased a grey market tractor from a man who makes his living off of international trade. He has spent much time on foreign soils wheeling and dealing heavy equipment. He has a physique like a green beret, was raised on a farm, and yet has a law degree with a specialty in international law. I recognized him as an expert in international affairs. Someone in the trenches, not the ivory towers. And I started asking him about his experiences.
Amongst the more interesting things he stated was that given the current world situation, even before the whole deal with Iraq started, he had decided to stay home for a while. He might consider a trip to Canada, but would not go to Mexico without a few of his ex-Ranger body guards and would under no circumstance venture to South America. He said that worldwide, it had become an accepted business to capture Americans and ransom them back or use them for political means. The authorities in the countries were of no help and usually on the bankroll themselves.
This was not your average everyday traveller, but a seasoned veteran with heavy duty protection.
After that discussion and listening to his accounts of how common this problem actually was, especially of friends and acquaintances he knew in the biz who had actually encountered troubles, I'm surprised that there hasn't been far more trouble in Iraq. In truth, it sounds as if the heavy protection being supplied to the contractors there is making them safer than if they were in South America. The only difference is that both the news media and the captors involved in the Iraq situation are motivated to amplify this microcosm of the overall story while they seem motivated to suppress the story of the true worldwide situation.
So, enjoy your trip to Iraq. But be very careful of Columbia, Peru, Brazil, Indonesia, etc.
"Where's outsourcing when you need it???"
The commision said " there was no link between 9/11 and Saddam "not there was no link between Saddam and al-Qaida." Source Lee Hamilton (democrat) co-chair of the 9/11 commission on 6-19-2004. There certainly were links between Saddam and al-qaida opertaves and other terrorsts he explained. There were no links to 9/11 and Saddam.
Despite being a total fuck tard Bush has never claimed Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. The press and Democrats claim he has but he never has. This is the "War on Terror" of which the invasion of Iraq is a part.
Don't repeat the lie that Bush or anyone in the current administration claimed Saddam was involved in 9/11. It makes people who know better discount anything else you may have to say which may be valid.
Don't blame me I didn't vote for him.
You can obtain a good discussion of this issue and it's pros and cons by watching the 1994 Kevin Smith film "Clerks". The two store clerks discuss and debate the fate of independant contractors that may have been on the second Death Star when it was destroyed. A convenient appearance by a roofing contractor closes the debate and puts it all into perspective for the viewer.
Personally, I wouldn't set foot over there right now, however I am eternally greatful to all the men and women who are currently serving this great nation. Now let's get the hell out of there.
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
Interesting that all you address is the risks to pay ratio. Without any further information, I'd have to say that you absolutely suck.
Do you feel that the US has a duty to Iraq now that we have unilaterally toppled their gov't against the will of the entire planet, and without good reason, thereby creating the largest tide of anti-americanism I have seen in my 28 years of life, and in doing so killed far more innocents than died on 9/11/2001 in the United States? Or hey, do you just want a quick buck?
I'd say off of your limited statement, you'd fall in to the later. If its pure money then I suspect you'll get exactly what's coming to you.
Here's to finally giving Bush his exit strategy in November
KBR (Kellog Brown & Root to you people who don't know) has a big location here in Houston. I heard from a friend that works their that they are the exclusive (or short list of exclusive) company that recruits people to go over to Iraq, Afgahnistan, or elsewhere and processes them here in Houston. I've been told that there is pay schedule as to what the normal salary is here in the US, plus 20% added on, plus another %20 added on for hazzard duty, all tax free. But, these numbers could be wrong. It just might be worth it, but my wife says NO WAY for me, otherwise I would go.
TAX FREE?? Where do I sign up!
"What's your likelihood of being abducted by terrorists in Saudi Arabia? Not very high. Even if you are there."
/. would something like that be mod'ed "Insightful".
Well, it's kind of hard to be kidnapped by terrorists in Saudi Arabia if you're NOT there.
But if you do go there AND you look like an American, then the chances go right up.
"Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die."
Stepped on by an elephant while having sex in Tacoma. Hmmm, statistically, that has NEVER HAPPENED.
Do you know what "relative" means?
"You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live."
False dichotomy there.
Either
Lock yourself in your house
or
Go someplace where lots of people who don't like you want to kill you and can recognize you easily.
Yeah. Whatever.
"If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die."
So, the terrorists can kill me or I can kill myself before the terrorists kill me.
Only on
How about he get a job at a small insurance company and die from a heart attack 60 years from now brought on by too many donuts for breakfast for 60 years?
Flamebait? I'm dead serious. If I wasn't nearly blind in my left eye, I'd be a Marine right now, in an infantry MOS just as my brother is. He spent his time in Iraq, I only wish I was alongside him helping the people get out from under 30 years of oppression. If I can do it by using my nerd skills, but being sane and having adequate protection (a nerd usually has the ability to think before entering a given situation: going into Iraq now unarmed is suicide, and not something a geek would fucking do), give me the chance.
I'm not in it for the money, I want to help people out. I'd lose money with my earlier statement of $100,000 / year.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
Iraq has more clean water and electricity today than it ever had under Saddam. How come so many "wedding parties" seem to get blown up in Afganistan and Iraq? Cause it's bull shit. It's like calling "police brutality" or saying "When did you quit beating your wife." Once it's said you can't counter it. Terrorists are not stupid they know how to manipulate the media.
So STFU and cower in your basement and rag on the US because you don't have a brain you can use to think for yourself. If the press dislikes a president he must be doing something right, if the French and BBC dislike him it's even better proof.
Don't blame me I didn't vote for him. But I doubt you are even a US citizen or resident.
I am not a computer professional; I do international development work and so I travel a fair bit. I was in Afghanistan and Pakistan last summer and Iraq last November and December.
I found Afghanistan pretty likeable, but it would be a hard place to live for an extended period. Outside of Kabul it gets very primitive very quickly. Additionally, the security situation outside of Kabul is very much worse than it is inside.
I found Iraqis (and most people, really) to be pretty nice, hospitable people, but the situation there is just all kinds of bad. The security situation is part of it, and this keeps you indoors and in very close quarters a lot of the time, and this gets old quick. And regardless of how you feel about the current administration or the war, being an American in Iraq is a mighty uncomfortable thing to be in 2004.
I presume the people paying big money for these services are military or military contractors. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, these guys live in shipping containers, often in the middle of nowhere. In the Green Zone, shipping containers are stacked everywhere and people are shoved into any space that will fit them. Many people --civilian contractors -- share their bunks in shifts.
If you are really considering this just for the money, I would think very carefully about what you are doing. How much is money really worth? Because especially in Iraq, you will be exposing yourself to physical danger and psychic stress that is considerable.
And if you are going for a travel experience, I can support that, but I would suggest that in a military environment you are unlikely to get much of a cultural experience. There are other, better ways to do this.
If you really believe in what you would be doing (as I did), then go, but do keep an open mind and remain observant and inquisitive; regardless of your position now, you will find things are quite different from how you thought they were.
-
Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
Insist on being given given an armored car (such as a BMW 760HS) and a highly trained driver to get around in. I see so many stories on the news of even high level diplomats that have been killed in there cars. I see the bullet holes and think to myself "why the fuck werent these people driving armored cars". If you can get this garantee then by all means do it. Other than that tell them to where to stick the job offer.
411 Y0UR 8453 4R3 8310NG 70 U5!! -NSA
"On a related note, I would like to see a comparison of the daily murder rate in Iraq compared to the daily murder rate for an inner-city such as, oh, let's say Detroit."
So, you're talking gang-related killings and such?
You do realize that, in the mid-east, you are the target for every "gang" out there, don't you?
In Detroit, the average, non-gang, person has a low probability of being shot. While the stats for gang-members are many times higher.
In the mid-east, the average person BORN AND RAISED THERE has a low chance of being shot. But a white American has a really big chance of being shot.
I tried to find something as a Sr-ish sysadmin over there for a while myself, and never saw anything. I myself would feel honored to go, for two reasons: 1) to be able to put forth a meaningful effort to show Iraqi's that there are Americans that do care about their welfare, and 2) same reason I joined the military back before Desert Storm - civic duty. I could easily get that money in Manhattan or something, and not need to worry (as much) about getting beheaded on the way home from work. There are better reasons to go over there than money.
I served in the Persian Gulf during my active duty years in the Navy. I am now retired fortunatley. These days however, there is no way I would go back to that region for any reason or any amount of money. There is widespread hatred of Americans in the region, and anyone western is a target. The situation was bad when I was there, and now it is so much worse, I can't even imagine. Having made it through my Gulf tour without incident, I consider myself lucky, but having got back here safely, I'll never ever go back, not for any reason, or any amount of money. Believe me whatever the're paying you it isn't worth it. Its not really fun in that part of the world, so a best case scenario in you won't have much fun, the worse is you could end up shipped backed in a plastic bag. I'd say do no go, what would it be like for you're family if you were killed over there just for a job? There are other jobs, no job is worth dying for. Obviously the political situation in the middle east is only deteriorating, stay home, don't be a statistic, don't risk putting yourself family through what could happen. You saw the news today, I'd think that would speak for itself. Mark
You can't use the money if you're dead.
go to the ghetto and find a really big guy as a bodyguard.
Since Iraq needs to be rebuilt....
Why not hire and train Iraqi citizens to rebuild it?
There, no moral questions about hourly pay rates for the citizens of the country that bombed them in the first place.
You need to talk to people who have been there. Not recruters. If it checks aout any your exposure to risk is minimal go for it, go. I had a friend who went to Viet Nam and ran a "Bank of America" Branch on a base. He made tons of money and also some good life expierence. He talks about maintaining the check reading machines that were in a quanset hut with a dirt floor (loads of fun.)
All these folks are using this as an advantage to express there political leanings and anti war sentiment not to give you reasonable advice. In short talking about shit they know nothing about. This is not a referundum on George Bush, al-Qaida, 9/11 or, war and peace. It's about a overseas job.
The last thing you should trust is the news media, If it's so fucking dangerous how come they are still over there?
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
stupid cheesedick liberals don't let me have one here legally in the US
Just out of curiousity, you call liberals cheesedicks, but you quote Bad Religion, one of the most liberal bands out there, in your sig?
Why?
I have given allot of thought to this. I have been tempted to "go over the hill" so many times. Hell, I've been thinking about it since I was there back in 1989-93. A gravy job, tax free money, (AFTER 3 YEARS !!!) a fat wallet. What more could you ask for? A nice villa some where, a boat, a car ? Sure, they'll give it to you. A nice big old life insurance policy, sure they'll give that to you too. As for the other things like: female companionship, i.e. YOUR wife, or your girlfriend, or some nice local girl...NO WAY....Heck when I was there they executed two Egyptian woman for "talking" to some marines. The GI's were deported overnight . We (the entire unit) were INVITED to attend the BEHEADING down at the soccer...errr...football???? field on Friday night and our Commander denied us permission to go, not that any of us wanted to attend anyway...
/. People all like to fantasize that this is "Bush's war" (your ALL wrong by the way) but we nor did he ask for 9/11, the Cole , Beirut , the Kobar Tower bombings (I was there, and saw 2 diff barracks building get it, two diff years, one right next to me!!! And still to this day NO Justice!!), Lockerbie, Mogadishu, US. Embassies, how many suicide bombers? and on and on until the two recent beheadings (at least this time it was carried out by terrorists.)
... money, adrenaline, the challenge of staying alive when you know they are out to get you, all the dime store novel intrigue and suspense........Yup, still tempted !! No sarcasm intended. BUT I am still firmly on home town soil USA ......
The dangers facing "contract workers" today are many times more dangerous than even 10 years ago, it's hard to describe the climate as anything other than "extremely hazardous". It's NEVER been rosy for Americans in the middle east nor Africa and it never will be. Having said that, I would still go to one of these Third World Countries and continue mission given a realistic chance of surviving AND coming home with the loot.
Now a true story of a "contract veteran" I last saw "somewhere" in the middle east:
I had a Warrant officer who retired right after Operation Desert Storm and went and worked for the Saudi National Guard as a supply tech. While he was over there I "stopped in" to see him and to find out how he liked his new employers. His response (which was very negative and remain the main reasons I haven't yet went for any of these jobs) was that:
A) He was treated very badly. Worse than the Third Country Nationals.
B) They wouldn't let him bring over any dependences even after being there a year (that was the deal, after 1 year he got his wife and kids)
C) The supply system was broke worse than ours (meaning the US Army's) and no one would allow him to fix it. (Sound familiar??)
After all was said and done he fulfilled his contract and returned in one piece to the states. The same cannot be said of a lot of workers there today.
And FWIW IMNSHO Bush is the ONLY reason why we are not all bowing 5 times a day to a rock and all trying to figure out what happened to church bells on Sunday. I Know
Yet, I'm still tempted
Rod F.
PFC
Dawn, n.: The time when men of reason go to bed.
Hurricane Island Outward Bound
OB
I scream like a little girl just playing Silent Hill 3. I imagine if I worked in a war zone, I'd have to wear a diaper and keep a pacifier handy. No thank you... I shit myself enough as it is.
(Sorry... had to lighten up this somber topic.)
Afghanistan: The Kabul/Bagram area are relatively safe. Occasional bombings and shootings sound worse in the media than is perceived locally. Locals don't see you as a target. Resist the temptation to see the rest of the country, and you'll be fine. Heroin use among foreign rear echelon motherfuckers is 'way up... do avoid that.
Kuwait: basically safe, but events in Iraq and SA will continue increase tensions. Do as you would in most poor nations (which Kuwait is not) and try not to stand out. Do a year or two and call it a day.
Bahrain: more of a disconnect between rulers and ruled than Kuwait. Looks good compared to SA, Iraq, Afghan.
Qatar & UAE: Looks good. Act conservatively, as has been the case in the Gulf all along. If SA goes down the shitter, there will be spill over, but at least you'll have plenty of warning.
Saudi: things are going to get worse before they get better. Do not take your family, as you'll be forced to live in a foreign compound. If at all posible, live in well off but Arab-heavy apartment complexes or developments. Make a habit of varying your routine outside of the office. Have in mind an alternate exit from said office.
Iraq: If you're lucky enough to work AND live strictly within the occupation authority's green zone in downtown Baghdad, knock yourself out. Keep in mind that that zone will be shrinking considerably over the next 12 months into a still huge US Embassy, so make sure you don't get stuck outside with a housing allowance and a pat on the back. For the less risk adverse, 24x7 at one of the bigger military bases is a consideration. Next down the list is Metro Basra as long as the Badr (as opposed to Sadr) militia and it's political front stay happy. Ditto with the Kurdish areas, which aren't much worse than eastern Turkey. Pass on Mosul, Kirkuk, and the whole rest of the country. If you're going to be driving anywhere, for God's sake opt for small, cheap sedans. Big sedans are begging to be car jacked, and SUVs broadcast "USA" like a HUMMV.
Iran: I throw this in for contrast. If a US citizen/resident alien, your biggest problem will be explaining yourself to Uncle Sam. Consult with an attorney to make darn sure you aren't in conflict with US economic restrictions on trade with Iran before you go. Don't hit on local women, bad mouth Islam or the government, or take pictures of any thing that even resembles a government or military installation. In fact, this is more of a normal overseas posting, so it's not nearly as lucrative. There are some up to date tourist guide books on the country, and good poop from the British and Australian Embassy web sites.
Luke, help me take this mask off
120,000 USD/year isn't anything to sneeze at.
Considering that most USA IT pro pay scale has
gone way down in the last 2 years, MOST of the
pay differential is hazardous duty pay. Very
recent events in the ME would indicate that the
pay differential is for REAL RISKS.
I understand that the pay is tax-free, so there
is more money to spend on health & life ins.,
ceramic body armour, and a folding AK-47.
Where do I sign up?
By working in the Middle-East, the chances of your death becoming national news increases dramatically. This is just like if you get shot in a school than your death will become national news. There was all the fuss over profiling likely school shooters when the profile or the classmate most likely to kill your child is one who is behind the wheel and drunk. The media is not a good informer of the real risks you face in life.
You make choices involving life and death, health, and other risks every day. The market does a good job of discovering and pricing the risk premiums of various hazardous activities. The Economist looked at some data and found that the price that Americans put on their life is around $7 million. The question is how much you value your life compared to the market?
A lot of people have chimed in with their own answers, so I'll instead pose the subject question. If it isn't Iraqis that penned the invite, I wouldn't suggest going. You're looking to go into a situation where "rebuilding" has begun though the war isn't over. They don't collectively want your help, and that should be enough to pass.
I lived in Bagh-town for 3 months this year on Camp Victory. It was awesome. But make no mistake, it is dangerous: I was attacked at least once a day by rocket fire, mortar fire, or gunfire. Everyday is a day on the edge. However, in exchange for the risk, you come back with a WAD of cash (I made $4000/m just for being a go-fer), a sense of survival (nothing really shakes my tree anymore.. except slamming doors and unexpected sounds.. what I meant was people don't scare me anymore), and a wonderful sense of culture. The arabs are WONDERFUL people. Very unselfish and friendly (except the ones that one to kill us). I made many friends, and now have a good understanding of arabic. If you want to talk to me, reply to this message. I would be happy to discuss it with you. -Dust
Tell the Iraqis you're Canadian.
Well said. It's refreshing to read a post from someone who looks beyond the simple money vs. security issues.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Since you are
/. FAQ and come back and ask me if I give a flying fuck about your opinion.
News for you if a US citizen falls down and scrapes his knee it's "being reported." There are no hidden "contractor" deaths. The US media would report them in a heart beat as it's anti war and anti Bush, just like you.
not
a US citizen please read the
I have my two best friends working on a contract to install a network on the Border of two of the countries mentioned above. The pay is great but in the light of events happening lately it makes me wonder if it is really worth it? Just because there being paid well and will have armed security doesn't mean that some extremist group won't pay more to have the oppertunity to kiddnap them. What we forget is that if you think the almighty dollars buy alot here, it's buy multiple times more an most countries in the world.
You would have thought they'd get the message by now, no one has a clue what these people want, since the media isn't interested in that there to bussy with pictures of the poor guys familly, and no one ever gives into hostage takers since otherwise hostage taking turns into a viable way of geting something and thus more common.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in groups.
Because I like Greg Graffin, he's a wonderful thinker. I don't happen to agree with some things he talks about, but I do own all of BR's albums, and I listen to 4 of them on a daily basis. The sig quote is one thing I absolutely agree with him on, namely that religion is a waste that humans have put up with for too fuckin long. In my "cheesedick liberal" line, I'm referring to the almost absolute stance on the abolishment of firearms by the liberal line, which is 100% foolish and is a cause of the situation in which we are in today. We're battling to raise the oppressed out of their plight because they have been trampled by religion and have no means to fight back against the dictators who take their arms. In this respect, Saddam == Hitler.
As you can see, I don't toe any party line, and can stand behind whatever side is correct.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
All you pussies who daydream about being Neo and kicking everyones ass in slow motion may as well stop reading this discussion now because it deals with real bullets and real death. Go finish your game of Tomb raider and wanking off over Lara Croft.
Plus, there are still hundreds of unaccounted-for surface-to-air missles hiding somewhere.
I'd at least wait until the SAM caches are found and the CPA misinformation stops.
Not a chance. Companies may be willing to pay double or triple your usual salary, but they cant buy you your life back. And even if you are not physically harmed, you would have to give up years of your life living in a society so restrictive that it would not be worthwhile.
I am in South America right now, more precisely in Argentina. There is a thriving expat community here, last night I attended a late dinner at a restaurant with a bunch of Americans. This city (Buenos Aires) is as safe as any US city if not safer. I know dozens of Americans here and never heard of anyone having any problems besides a few being victims of petty theft, just like in any other big city.
Obviously this person does not know what he's talking about. The world outside the US is not as frightening as some people want to make it sound. Warzones, of course, are a different matter.
See charts for twitter trends on Trendistic
At one time, teenagers did and they learned how to work. It's easy to see how the slacker generation came into being.
"...I only wish I was alongside him helping the people get out from under 30 years of oppression.."
...hmm... When Bush is finished installing his puppet government in Iraq and everything is all running smoothly, I wonder what oppressed nation the U.S.A will free next? After all their are quite a few... North Korea maybe? Or maybe not since they actually have WMD's... (and no oil to fund costly rebuilding projects to line the pockets of corporate America and the American economy.)
The sad thing about a democracy is that it has to be *formed* democratically, not be forced upon a people as part of a "new world order". The majority have to fight for it. Something which is quite hard when you have a government using physical and psychological force to control the people.
As a side note, it is amazing how easily a population can be controlled by fear. One year after 9/11 it seams everyone forgot about Osama and all that could be heard from the mainstream media was WMD's and Saddam.
And for all the history buffs out there here is a quote that echoes the above point.
"Of course the people don't want war... That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Goering, Adolf Hitler's Deputy Chief and Luftwaffe Commander, at the Nuremberg trials, 1946 from "Nuremberg Diary" by G M Gilbert (Signet, New York, 1947).
Which Iraquis? Or which Saudis, Afganies?
If you are a government worker/contractor "you may notice a strong smell of politics in the room."
If you're a private company worker, you're in the same boat. They get their money from a government agency.
This has probably all been chewed over some where in the depths of 0.
It's a War zone buddy. A distributed war. Pretty much covers the globe. The odds are different in different places don't ya know.
If you're young and you think you're invincable, or just want to try to play the odds,
Hey, be careful and good luck Dude
---
Ya, Stephenson quote.
We will have helped them if we succeed. If we fail, and someone else takes over the country we will have left the country worse off. It is becoming increasingly more likely that, at least with W at the helm, we will fail. We've allready pretty much lost Falluja. Reports from commanders on the front lines are almost allways dismal. Everyone there keeps telling the same story: we need more troops we need more money we need more everything. This just may be a nation building attempt we cannot afford from a funding standpoint.
And before I get a few 'free the Iraqis' high horse people saying what a noble cause it is, where've you been when Africa or South America needed help. The U.S. does not, and cannot intervene on soley humanitarian grounds. We have neither the money, and probably as a result of this, the interest in it. Iraq, as far as terrible places to be in 2000 go, was far from the worst place and easily not the place where we'd get the most humanitarian bang for our buck.
This war is nothing but the product of the idiotic neocons misguided policy. (notice how I didn't say conservatives, who were only steered out of their normally somewhat isolationist stance by said neocons).
Photos.
The front lines are everywhere! [Rage Against The Machine] /sorry, had to be said...
I know you're trolling, but try to separate the actions of the military, and the actions of civilian workers who went there afterwards to *help* build and rebuild.
Until I read this thread, I would have thought that civilians working on reconstruction over there would be acceptable and lauded by both sides of the political spectrum, both pro and anti-war.
The war already happened; theres nothing we can do about that. I'd consider it immoral to *not* have Americans there to help.
Or we could just have all the civilians leave; pull out the contractors, and leave the bombed out Iraqi people to their own devices.
-- My Sig is a P228.
get rid of almost half the Army's combat divisions along with lots of others and we wonder why we're stretched thin.
This American Life is not an NPR program.
And, here all this time, I thought I was the only one who hacked away on a keybaord while listening to the Top Gun soundtrack...
...can I have your stuff?
Hell fucking NO! I'd rather live in Iraq. At least I'd have a clue why someone was trying to kill me.
Yeah, we will all die someday; maybe tomorrow, maybe 50,60 or 70 years from now. Could die of a heart attack, could die of a disease, could die in car crash. So those arguments are pretty moot I feel.
The *important* thing is how you're going to die, and especially how it came about. I sure as hell don't want to die at the hands of someone that keeps me as a ransom for 3 days only to be beheaded in the end. And the last thing I want is for my family to live through such a thing.
I'd much rather die from a disease, car crash, or other more 'natural' things than to have someone else take my life in such a horrible way.
AC comments get piped to
Ihe Iraq linux user group story said that most of the people there are scared of being killed by bandits and other lowlife scum not to mention the news stories about lots of Iraqi's being killed & wounded by terrorists, much more so than Westerners. Sounds like everyone is a target
I overheard somebody say that and is partially true as everything in life, I just want to add a couple thoughts.
When you work at those locations you are on your TOTALLY own, nobody will help you and you are between the sword and the wall. If you kill someone on self defense the locals will always see you as the KILLER?GUILTY and if they kill/mutilate you then nobody will forsee justice for you.
On the other hand nobody would give you a job in your home town and your goverment would problably let you die poor in the most inhuman conditions. Apocalypse Now anyone?.
Although some people say that something bad might happen to them back at home you surely won't face a horrid death like being shooted while you burst in flames even crossing the NY Bronx with a $ 1.000.000 dollars in your backpack, you are most likely to get shooted and that's it.
A possible solution?, yes go there to work and hope for the best, if you see yourself at the end of the line get the balls to take a cianide pill or put a bullet in your head, or a more dramatic approach is to immolate yourself taking some bastards with you to the other side.
Those who hope to profit from the spoils of war deserve death.
Do yourself (And the people in the beaten nation) a favor, and stay at home.
...but I can't help but think that running off to carpetbag in a war zone might not be the best idea.
I mean, c'mon. People are killing and beheading people there. People just like you. This isn't some monty haul dungeon adventure, because they have the weapons and you don't.
I never have frustrations, the reason is, to wit:
If at first I don't succeed, I quit!
...tell everyone your Canadian.
You thought wrong. That's not what the Corps of Engineers is for. Try a little Googling before embarassing yourself. And moderators, you're on crack.
"(1) the idiot that authorized that kind of treatment should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
That would be Bush or Rumsfeld or whom?
"(2) those prisoners, although embarrassed, lived. they'll get over it."
Except for the ones that were killed. And there are photos that show that.
Not to mention the women that were raped. Seems Congress has access to pictures of THAT happening, too.
"Go find someone that's been to Viet Nam, and ask them if they had an easy time telling who the Enemy was."
So, it's okay to kill people who look different as long as they all look different in the same way?
WTF?
"In Iraq, most of the people are friendly enough. The few that are the problem cannot be picked out of a crowd based on their appearance."
That's correct. Irrelevant, but correct.
"Any time weapons are fired, they get nervous."
That is an understandable response.
"Given the nature of the environment, I'm actually more surprised that the people at this wedding party didn't have the sense to find another way to make noise, if they wanted to celebrate."
Why? They celebrated in that fashion while Saddam was in charge. Aren't we supposed to be BETTER than Saddam?
"I'll grant you that the RESPONSIBILITY ultimately falls on Bush (more on that in a second), but that does NOT mean that it was his call to do it."
Responsibility is Responsibility.
"When I served in the Navy, they taught us an important rule of leadership: You can delegate Authority, but you cannot delegate Responsibility. I think that speaks for itself."
But nothing is happening to Bush. If he was responsible, shouldn't he be doing jail time for the crime?
"I am sad that there are people that so hate President Bush that they are willing to blame him for every thing possible, all the while being completely blind to the facts at hand."
But you just said that they taught you in the Navy that you cannot delegate Responsibility. So Bush is Responsible.
So it isn't about people who "hate" Bush and "are willing to blame him for every thing possible".
It is a matter of Responsibility.
The question for YOU is "What does 'Responsibility' mean?"
When I was in the Army, if one of my troops fucked up, _I_ was the one explaining the situation to my commander and _I_ was the one who dealt with the situation and _I_ was the one who made sure it did not happen again.
Maybe it isn't people who "hate" Bush. Maybe it's just people who understand that "Responsibility" is not just a word.
Check out the photo of the chick next to the corpse.
The bloody corpse.
The bloody, bruised corpse.
He died of "humiliation"?
What? 5, Insightful? How about -1, Stoopid? Come on moderators, this asshat is making fools out of you! The whole "military-industrial complex" went out with Watergate. Sakusha is either living in the past or has been spending way too much time in Berkeley.
This American ponders how much money he can make and asks "is it safe?" Which epitomises a central aspect of the morally reprehensible nature of his society.
The American people will be ready to apply for readmission into the ranks of humanity when guys like this have the decency to say;
"Regardless of the personal benefits I might gain, I will not serve the cause of tyranny."
The rest of us are appalled by your behaviour. Change or be damned.
He didn't say that it was an NPR program - he said that it was on NPR. If you're going to be pedantic, at least do it correctly.
The CoE does mostly CIVIL engineering. Dams, flood control, and miscelaneous hydrology are their main contribution to infrastructure creation. They're mainly a construction corps. Anything requiring esoteric technical knowledge is generally contracted out to private companies that specialize in those sorts of things.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
What is the difference between the american push to the west where they drove the original inhabitants of their land and put them in camps and killed a large amount of the population and the german push east where they drove the original inhabitants of their lands and put them in camps and killed them? Answer: The germans never named militairy hardware after races/tribes they wiped out. (Look at the names of US combat helicopters)
And the guy is asking because he wants the money. I guess this will really be showing the true american to the iraq people. "Do anything in the name of the allmighty dollar".
If all this sounds really nasty/trollish/flamebait then it is time to wake up. America has become very much an object of hate. Partly because it is an easy target, hating say holland would require you first to find a really detailed map and a magnifying glass, but mostly because its activisties during its existence have made it very clear on whose side america is. Its own. Give america a choice between something that will benefit the entire world or only america and the choice so far has been entirely clear.
So taking this kinda job means working in an area where a tiny percentage will welcome you because they are directly benefitting from you. Where the fast majority just has a kinda low level hatred for you. They wouldn't do anything about it UNTIL the last group comes into play. The unknown percentage that hates you and blames you for everything. To whom you are the living devil. This has nothing to do with your race/color/religion. They bombed the U.N. killing people from every group.
And the majority can easily be swayed into action by this group or at least not act to help should you come under attack.
So the answer is. Sure go. The risk is not that great. Neither is the risk that great that if you put your finger in to a light socket you will really kill youreselve. Most of us still try to avoid doing so.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Getting killed by a satellite is a global risk. Same really with say tripping over something and breaking your neck. These are normal risks we all have. Go to a warzone and you ADD to these basic risks a whole new load of risks. One of the silly things about wars is that an awfull lot of soldiers end up getting wounded by just plain accidents. Driving their jeep of the road. Something falling on their head in a repair shop etc etc. Choppers are a good example. They crash constantly and there was even 1 report I remember wich said that during actual war the risk was less because everyone was more alert to the risk and the level of training was higher (you don't send troops still in training to a warzone).
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Well would you rather be doing what you love in a dangerous country and get shot/blown-up/beheaded or be forced to take a crappy job at a convenience store and shot in the head by a two bit thug for thirty bucks?
In all fairness I don't think I'd choose either. I'd rather get a job I like in a safe place.
Yours Truly,
AC
that says "I am not an American" in English and Arabic.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
Losing your house and then paying the guy who wrecked it to help rebuild it is so much more intelligent than.....
hiring an exterminator?
The world (as a whole) is better off without Saddam's government.
Individual Iraqis are not. Some are dead. Some are maimed.
The US economy certainly isn't better off.
Suppose you have a brother and you give your brother $50 to bring back beer for you both for the weekend. He brings back 1 bottle. Would you think your brother was...
a.) a very shrewd shopper
or
b.) an idiot who just paid $50 for a bottle of beer
You can "solve" a "problem" in a completely idiotic fashion and spend way too much time and money and LIVES doing so.
I would just like to say that the rumor that there was a connection between Iraq and Alquada is true. There has been evidence found that there was a man that worked for Saddam whose name I forget who attended the meetings that planned not only the attacks on the World Trade center but also on the attack against the USS Cole in Yemen and some embassy in the sudan. Also I think it might be too dangerous for contractors in the Iraq right now. It is like help building the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. The worst of it is not over. The violence will go on for some time.
He was part of the occupation dude !! Does the Iraqi resistance need any other reason???
Those terrorists are barbaric savages.. the lowest form of life on Earth.
No f*cking way I'd go over there. Ever.
I am the maverick of Slashdot
Wow, the timing for such an article.
On the other hand, I hear they're hiring an Apache technician...
Problem with that type of position is the headhunters don't take no for an answer.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Actually, in Iraq, the Corps is working to: restore oil production, restore electricity, dispose of enemy munitions, build bases for the US military, and build bases for the Iraqi military.
Would you be ready to die for KBR/Halliburton to make money? Why not, is there no sin in making money, even if it demands the death of many people?
Be sure and practice up on your minesweeper skills.
I continue to have my curiosity perked
So why didn't he bother to have it PIQUED instead?
Spent a weekend in the house of a mil contractor, he asked if i could drive a truck - I said yes. He asked if I would like $250,000 tax free income, yes. He laughed, he said he liked me too much to give me a job. Be forewarned.
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
I lived & worked in Israel for 2 years, all up and down the country. The most frightening time I had was the first two weeks, during which every ride on a public bus was an adventure in paranoia. Then I started to relax. After all, you're surrounded by soldiers *who are on your side*. Yes, they could be a little rude. Yes, there is a bit of a culture shock. At the end of the day, if you are the kind of person who can adapt well to new environments and not let your loved ones back home make you stress out then I say go for it. The only thing I feel I should strongly reccomend is get to learn the local language. There's nothing worse than feeling alone in a crowd of friends when they all start speaking the local tongue.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Try as you might, "most" Americans can never blend in to a middle east country.
1: Your white and taller than the local population.
2: Your car or issued car is not what the locals drive.
3: You don't speak the language.
4: You don't dress like the locals.
5: You have more money than the locals.
So you can be identified while in public with ease. Do the wrong people take notice of you after you have been there for a few days/weeks? {of course}. Do they know who you work for and what you do? {of course, after a little intel gathering}. Those local friends you meet might be the one(s) gathering intel on you. If not then they might talk to their friends that are {weather they know it or not}
Are you a target? Well it depends on how easy a target you are, and how many targets they compair you to.
So why does the muslum factions hate Americans so much, well in short they hate isral more then they do us, and we are allied with isral and are infidels.
A quote:
The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:9798)
Now- heres the rub. You would think that kidnappings, hikackings, and detainment by rougue governments are things that you hear about on the news, yet dont generally happen very often
If you think this, then you are wrong
I can think of at least three things that have happened to people I know in these situations (NOTE: not things I have heard OF, or people I know OF- then we would be here all day). 1) a hijacking of an oil platform off of angola 2) kidnapping in colombia (lasted more than a year) 3) 2 year incarceration by corrupt government officials in nigeria.
However
As a former oil worker myself, I can safely say that the dangers posed by political instability are nothing compared to the health and safety hazards posed in these danger zones. Health and safty in the british sector of the north sea is bad, but health and safety in many parts of the world is basically non existant.
This is far more likely to kill you that political violence, even in a reletively sheltered job such as network engineer,
According to President Bush, President Bush has never made a mistake. Also, should a mistake be made, President Bush will be unable to recall the mistake or any events that happened before and after said mistake. President Bush also would like you to know that any fact brought forth must meet with President Bush's approval. Failure of the fact to be approved makes the fact false. Only President Bush approved facts will be considered truthful.
Currently I am working for a US company in Kuwait. I am doing system integration for a network management project at a telecom here. That's why I'm here. It is my experience that Kuwait is relatively safe. One hears reports in the local papers about threats, but the Kuwaiti security is fairly tight. I also go on weekend trips sometime to Bahrain as it is close and you can consume alcohol there (Kuwait is "officially" dry ;-). Bahrain is again relatively safe. Bahrain is where Saudis go to drink alcohol as well, as there is a 30 kilometer bridge that connects to two countries. So I've met and talked with a few Saudis and they were very friendly and said it is a small group that cause these problems.
That being said, I've met more than one westerner on his way out of Saudi. I would not go there, but Kuwait, Bahrain or Dubai (UAE) are probably safer than walking the streets of most major US cities. You definitely want to avoid places like Saudi and Iraq obviously, but also Yemen (from what I'm told by my Kuwaiti colleagues.). Some other places you may consider in the Middle East is Oman, Qatar and Lebanon. I've been told that Beirut is a very nice place these days (the war ended almost 15 years ago) and it has a European feel to the city. Personally if I had the opportunity (which I just might) I would choose either Dubai, UAE or Beirut, Lebanon.
Sorry if I rambled a bit, I just returned from a weekend in Bahrain 8)
You say that the 100 contractors ran up a $1m bill in 3 months? Yes, that is $10k per night, but not per person. That's $100/night for each person - not bad for 4 stars. Considering these are financial people who might have other credentials, they probably would not go there if they had to sleep in tents. I sure as hell would not.
I'm no fan of halliburton, especially the way it compensates cheney (bribery anyone?). But where is the waste here? Some things are just more expensive when you look at your costs.
hah hah.very good :)
It's got a head-off display.
Yea, Hitler was defending Germany when he invaded Poland as well. But his "evidence" was a bit more professionally forged compared to that bad piece of theatre you guys pulled this time.
I'm in Kuwait right now... Doing a UNIX admin gig.
:)
I live off base.. I survive... I've paid off all my debt.
Survivor,
ChiefArcher
I work for a US company that makes the process computers & networks that control a lot of the big oil refineries. There is a lot of money that can be made in Iraq/Kuwait/Saudi, but a the moment we are moving all people out of the area. Only a skeleton group of people is left behind in Dubai that will try to do some local support. All other support will be done by dialing into the systems via old fashioned phoneline. These days it is safer to hook your plant control network to a phone line than to send out an engineer to site.
Walking around in Iraq/Saudi is not worth the risk at this moment. The attack last month on the office in Saudi that killed 22 people, that was supposed to be a secure facility. Yes we had our people in there and yes they are dead now.
Yeah, I think that the risk to you would be much reduced if you weren't obviously US/Euro from the white skin. I'm willing to bet a man of color would blend in better, draw less attention, garner fewer death threats, and still make the same, great pay.
Put identity in the browser.
Whether you think the "state" argument applies here or not, realize it ain't just about the money. For $100k a year are you willing to become part of an occupying force? To the natives that's what you will represent, and all your income will be tainted with the blood both of the natives who died in the occupation and of the "allied" soldiers who died not for the money, but because they thought it their duty to be there when their country asked.
To quote Rick Blaine: I don't mind a parasite; I object to a cut-rate one.
Where can I possibly apply?
"The Department of Defense is seeking to hire highly skilled and deeply motivated U.S. citizens to work as civilians"
Any help is appreciated.
all we need is US government issue baseball bats with ``nigger beater'' engraved in them. that will show everyone.
"Has anyone survived such a trip and lived to tell the tale with a fat wallet?"
"Better to be tortured by a leash and a polaroid than have your friggin head cut off."
"You are indeed pioneers! It's like the ole west over there with money to be made in the face of great danger."
Im just starting to understand why they hate us so much. They have competent geeks themselves but their jobs are being out-sourced already, they don't all agree with the people who go around abducting everyone but yet they get equal blame. I know not everyone here agrees with bombing the crap out of everything they have to catch afew assholes but you have to see from their point of view - rebuilding Iraq means rebuilding it for them, thats why we're there right? to help a country get rid of a dictator and get back on its feet? not to make lots of money for ourselves? - your profit comes last in the equation, the world isnt all capitalism.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I think that most of the people who do these kind of "offshore ventures" are not doing it just for the money. There are a lot of other valuable things you can receive from a job besides money.
Statistically speaking, I think you have a better chance of getting killed in America through one of our favorites (heart disease, automobile, gunshot) then you do getting beheaded in the Middle East. However, if you are killed in the Middle East you will probably enable your loved ones a brighter future through public sympathy donations and potential gigs on television.
But the people who do this kind of work are doing it because they are trying to make a difference in the world and they believe that they are on the side of GOOD.
If you do this, do it not because of your wallet, but because of your conscience. Think who you might become as the result of this experience.
Hi. I was thinking about crossing the street, to get to the other side. But it seems what with people getting run over all the time, I just wonder, is it worth it? I mean more people die crossing the street than they do being contracters in Iraq, so I suspect its not worth trading my life in just to get to the other side. I am thinking it will be best to stay on this side of the street.
What do you all think?
Hello,
I've seen so much job like that in the security field, but the fact is that you need to be American, and you need to have an active security clearance.
So those jobs are only for Americans... I find it unfair because those jobs are not located in the US, and the bill will not be paid by Americans...
I am half french and half Algerian, I guess that it would be useless for me to send my resume to those companies...
- oil
:
- personal agenda
- personal vendeta
- media misdirection
summary
- money
- power
Are you stupid?
We all need money to live. More money means more comfortable life, usually. If you don't want the job, fine. Companies need to make money to keep investors - like me.
I doubt anyone in Halliburton or any other organization being paid is there for only 1 reason. That is an extremely simplistic way of thinking.
The USA has an all voluntee military, but they get paid. Does that make them in Iraq just for the money?
I do fine the idea of outsourcing techincal skills to foreign workers interesting, oh, but then the democratic congress will blame the republicans for not using US based companies. Geez, you can't win for being a company willing to accept a government contract in a war zone.
I ask again, "Are you stupid?"
I'm not going to lie and say a job in Saudi Arabia or Iraq or anywhere in the middle east or central asia is going to be either easy or perfectly safe but then again neather is a job in LA or New York.
One thing is perfectly true however and that is the media has an agenda and is skewing the reports out of the region to fit that agenda (remember quagmire reports three days into the ground assault?)
One thing you can do to really get on top of the situation is to check out the Iraqi blogs, those tell the true story, the story filtered by people just like you and me, not somebody who's greatest ambition in life is to get President Bush out of office.
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
Have you considered going to a desolate place instead of a war zone?
I don't know if there's much chance of you getting a job there (I've known a guy who got an offer, but they wanted him for engineering duties), but it might be another option. The offer was from our government (Argentinian), about US100000. And he said that was cheap. Maybe there's some IT jobs to be done there. He didn't take it, though. Didn't like the mandatory appendix extraction.
You won't get that kind of money now here, but maybe some commonwealth government (the British have an importante presence there), or the Americans could make an offer.
It's going to be hard to get, networking stuff can be usually done remotely (I'm a netadmin myself), but there might be a chance.
GPG 0x1B479C78
...And if your wind up with a capinyaass, thanks in advance for the job opening.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
I haven't been in Baghdad, as a disclaimer. However, I am quite likely going to serve a 2-3 month stint there sometime in '05. The contract I'm working on (and this is tech geek computer stuff) has a continual Baghdad presence, so here's what I know.
:) You're unlikely, as a contractor, to get shot there (though we had a guy who was, but it was a freak occurrence and a very minor wound) or blown up if you're not hanging around the gates. But there are other bases, mentioned in the article. Are you going to need to travel between them? That, boys and girls, is where you're at most risk. Find out the details on how often, and by what means. There are convoys, and no they don't all get blown up, but yes some of them do. Armor on your humvees can protect against some things. You'll probably have a flak jacket. That won't help in the case of an IED (Improvised Explosive Device), though. Neither will a gun. There's also helicoptors but those are much less likely to be used. Personally, those are my preference.
First off, if you want to work in a tech geek capacity you're most likely going to need a security clearance. These aren't things you pick up overnight! The investigations usually take about 1-2 years (sometimes longer), require lots of paperwork, have personalized background checks (they'll talk to your coworkers and neighbors), and so on and so forth. Maybe there's a way to super expedite things. I know expediting it usually means '12-15 months' instead of '24 months'. There's interim clearances you can get quicker that might work. Also, you can't just walk down to NSA and ask for a clearance, you'll need a sponsor. In addition to time and resources these things are costing someone money. Maybe if you don't have a clearance you could work in an unclassified environment for a couple months while getting an interim, and I imagine there are some jobs that don't need it, but the folks I'm aware of in Baghdad and Afghanistan need one.
Second off, ask lots of questions. Figure out where you're going. Where you'll be living. How much travel you'll be doing. What the security arrangement is. Standard line is that you're unarmed as a contractor. Now, maybe some people get their hands on guns, I don't know, but I can't imagine the soldiers are going to like you toting one around a secured base if you're not supposed to have one. They don't want to risk friendly fire incidents, someone starting a huge flare-up because they aren't following Rules of Engagement, etc. That said, I plan on getting some experience at civilian equivalents of what's commonly used over there. It's not like I plan on shooting but if something really really bad happened, it'd be nice to know that I had the option. Probably if all hell breaks loose you can find a gun.
Now, travel. There are different things you can be doing over there. I'm familiar most with Baghdad. But if you check out this link and the section on 'Coalition Facilities' midway down you can see there's a lot of soldiers and bases large and small over there. Camp Victory North is the safest from what I hear. It's the biggest, it's the closest to the airport, it has a Burger King at the PX.
I could ramble on and on but I'll ony ramble a bit more. There's a lot of things to think about but why you're there is a big one. Sure, there's money, and that's a good draw for a lot of people. If you're risking your life (and you are) it helps if there's more than money motivating you. At the least, you don't want to be against the situation over there, or you will be miserable and so will those around you. If you're going over there to help build infrastructure for the country, fine. If you're going over there to help protect Coalition lives, great. If you're going over there to get a bunch of money and think the whole Iraq thing is a big screw-up that you in no way support except for the desire to make a buck, I'd seriously reconsider.
Oh, and one final note: Royal Air
I love the education programs from the same software houses that actually develop faulty software *AND INCLUDE* bug fixes and workarounds to current problems in their training criteria rather than actually fixing the problem at the software level so that a human wouldn't need to be expressly educated to deal with this exact problem.
This, in my opinion, is the fundamental flaw in all aspects of IT training, humans interfacing with computers add value by being flexible and intelligent in a way that a computer cannot be, I have seen my share of certified professionals who have been no more educated than the simple memorising of reams upon reams of troubleshooting and errata manuals, a simple google on a given problem instantly negates their advantages, whereas others that have trained long and hard to understand the underlying principles of development and administration, although they would be unlikely to bother with acquiring a certification in a given product, have skills which are quite simply put, priceless.
Give me one clever, wily hacker over a thousand MCSE monkeys and a hundred Ivy League accredited CS students.
And to hell with formal accreditation.
... for the CoE to develop some more capabilities. If you think hydrology and infrastructure are easy, you don't know much about them. The problems also gets exponetially harder when you are expected to be able to work in environments ranging from dessert to jungle.
If the CoE can handle civil, it can learn most IT tasks.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
In the worst case and they do behead you, please have the guts to die as a martyr. Just before the ax falls (or before they gag you, and hope the camera catches it) pull a Patric Henry. No it isn't the revolutionary war, and all that. Still you can spoil their tape by turning your dieing words into a heroes stance. Consider your words carefully. ("You will now see how an Italian dies" was apparently used, though I can't recall the story)
Odds are it won't happen to you. Pray and whatever else you do that you will be safe. But if you must die please don't turn it into a good PR move for bad guys.
I would personally go. The reasoning is that I was formally in the U.S. Army infantry and have some knowledge of the region. As for the risks, well their risks. I would recommend you do alot of reading on the region before you ever go. You need to understand the culture and people. It's a risky choice but the stories you could tell afterwards would live with you forever.
"Yes, and that would only take a couple of, what, DAYS, surely? CERTAINLY they could cope without infrastructure until THEN!"
0 94 117.html
While it would take longer than DAYS, it would still happen faster than the US rebuilding it.
Who do you think FIRST built the stuff we bombed? It was the Iraqis. They already know how to build the roads / schools / hospitals / etc.
"No, they couldn't. Come to think of it, though, training native people to build their infrastructure is probably why schools are being built, yes?"
If you take the long term (10 years) view, then that is an acceptable answer. So you view sending a kid to kindergarten as training someone to build a hospital?
"Just as the US had a responsibility to remove Saddam after they were the ones who put him in power, they are the ones who have the responsibility to begin forward momentum in rebuilding infrastructure in Iraq."
We removed him in a very IRRESPONSIBLE manner. We did NOT have a plan for stabilizing the country AFTER.
So our "responsibility to begin forward momentum in rebuilding infrastructure in Iraq" does NOT include huge salaries for US citizens.
Our responsibility is to get the Iraqis building and maintaining their own country NOW.
"Am I ticked about the probability of wrongdoing with Haliburton contracts? Yes."
While I just find the use of the term "wrongdoing" to be amusing. It sounds like something a 6 year old would say. Why not call it a "crime" or something?
"But that doesn't mean that my knee-jerk response is to say the US shouldn't be helping."
Nice try.
We also were "helping" when we funded Saddam's war against Iran.
We also were "helping" when we funded Saddam's chemical weapons program.
We also were "helping" when we rounded up and tortured those Iraqis.
Isn't about time we stopped "helping"? Isn't it about time we turned Iraq over to the Iraqis?
"And helping, they are. Many people in Iraq already now live much, much better than they ever have."
Anytime the government changes, some people move up and some move down. I'm not interested in a select sub-group. I want the AVERAGE Iraqi to be better off.
If we were doing so much good for the AVERAGE Iraqi, we would NOT have lost Fallujah, which, on 19 June 2004, we are STILL firing missles at.
http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_171
Almost every dictator has built schools. That is no accomplishment.
"Look, numbers don't lie. Plain facts don't lie. Last December, the story broke that the homicide rate in Baghdad had fallen to below the largest American cities. If you took the military casualties out of the equation, the Baghdad murder rate was lower than any American city."
:D
... ... "If we don't count people like you being killed, then the statistics for people like you being killed are very low."
:)
Check out the FIRST PARAGRAPH of that story.
"The latest crime statistics for Baghdad show its murder rate is lower than that of any major U.S. city -- if anti-coalition attacks are discounted."
IF ANTI-COALITION ATTACKS ARE DISCOUNTED.
IF ANTI-COALITION ATTACKS ARE DISCOUNTED.
IF ANTI-COALITION ATTACKS ARE DISCOUNTED.
So, if a US citizen went to Baghdad and was killed, would that death be counted in the story you referenced?
No (most likely).
Because someone killing that person would PROBABLY be counted as "anti-coalition".
So, what you are ACTUALLY saying is
Nice try. But I seem to understand statistics far better than you.
Muslim drag is easy: Wear a bourka. You're less likely to be a target for al-Qaeda execution if you're a woman, since the Koran dictates that the dog-does-not-bite-bitch rule is supposed to operate in jihad. Male enemies get killed and I think female ones are supposed to be captured and enslaved. Plus a bourka would relieve you of any worry about the naughty slogans on your favorite t-shirts offending the locals.
ac
...as a rule of thumb, you can figure that 1 in 5 people THERE want to bust your brain bucket...and maybe 1 in 100 people HERE want to. Therefore, the risk of being brained there is 20x risk of being brained HERE. Therefore the pay there should be 20x what it is here to account for the risk.
Is it?
Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that they only do flood control. I was just citing what, historically, has been their main contribution-- they "leveed up" the entire mississippi river, for example. As I stated in the above post, their main job is CONSTRUCTION. You know, bulldozers, concrete, backhoes, and the like. IT infrastructure is one thing they DON'T do. The United States Army Information Systems Engineering Command (USAISEC) does that.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
I was forward-deployed during the early phase of the Afghanistan war, and the KBR guys were great.
In case you were unaware, these contractors keep guys on the ground in those countries; some of them have been there for 20 years or more. These are local people who live there, speak the language, and are employed/paid by these companies to maintain caches of equipment, buildings, etc... these companies don't just fly in a bunch of pale-faces, rake in the cash, and fly out.
They subcontract with a lot of local people to cook food, do construction, and all manner of services for the military, and they do a fair job of it. They maintain a lot of relationships... It's probably a little unfair to simply characterize them as profiteering gluttons (and no, I don't work for them, never have, and don't plan to).
Contractors provide a lot of services, and while they certainly do it for a profit, that's no different from 99% of people in a capitalist system. Doing things out of the goodness of your heart is very noble, but money's a powerful motivator, and people going out into a war zone to do a job (particularly if they're providing expertise that the Iraqis need) should get a fair wage... I'd say they're earning it.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
but since day one have always chosen destinations carefully. Even at that though, I've found myself in sticky situations from time to time as the company once having you overseas would press for side trips in the name of urgency or expediency. Generally, I find Europe and Asia to be my prefered destinations. I turned down Middle East assignments twenty years ago and every opportunity subsequent and that pretty much holds true for much of Latin America as well. Although I've never traveled to Russia I would, including some of the former Republics but not all. Some parts of Africa are do-able. Some not. You have to stay up to date on current events in the region and alot of extraneous factors are involved including your ability to function in fully autonomous mode which invariably happens. Even in the friendlier parts of the world a robust constitution is often required. Chose wisely.
That said, I've enjoyed my travels immensely and have made many valued friendships, seen alot, learned alot and have had minimal difficulties considering. Understanding and being respectful of foreign culture and tradition is a big plus. So is a Canadian Passport if your an American.
Sure, why not. Iraq is probably safer then any large American city.
I bet that at the end of this year (or end of last year) there were more murders in a few US cities than any deaths due to the war/terrorists.
Unemployed Tech Worker #494343
They said "anti-coalition".
... ... "If we don't count people like you being killed, then the statistics for people like you being killed are very low."
"If that US citizen was a member of the Coalition--that is, one of the 138,000 American or Coalition troops, or one of the few dozen remaining CGA personnel--then that citizen's death would be tallied as part of an "anti-Coalition attack." Otherwise, then it's just a homicide."
Contractors are also filed under "coalition". Hell, that was even covered in the SECOND paragraph.
"While daily reports of violence give the impression that chaos reigns, the U.S. Army's 1st Armour Division, which controls the Iraqi capital, says the number of "non-political" murder victims has declined dramatically over recent months."
NON-POLITICAL
NON-POLITICAL
NON-POLITICAL
So if someone killed him because he was an American, that would be...... POLITICAL.
So his death would not be counted.
So, once again what you are ACTUALLY saying is
Computers are not needed in all parts of the world. Technology creates weak mutants who cannot even move their legs or arms anymore. The people of afganistan are smarter than you are because they live in caves and non-toxic earth buildings instead of eyesores out of steel, arsenic/wood, and concrete. Do not help turn the world into a scrap heap or sell your soul to lucifer for $$$. Go smell some flowers and stop being a robot.
All the world needs is organic food, but damn machines.
Yeah, I've been but in Saudi and you have seen what is happening there. I got the bucks fine and returned to tell the tale. But even if they don't behead you or otherwise kill you for real, you die a different death there anyway - the death that in the eyes of the native population they would see you really have if they could. You're a dog there. You're the 'other'.
go here: http://www.whitewaterhealingcentre.com/healing.htm
I've worked in a lot of places in even small town america that weren't safe. Never got paid a hazard premium for bimbos in SUVs weaving all over the road while putting on lipstick, or trying to dodge a squirrel.
If you work in some area that's in the middle of a civil war, like northern ireland many years back, those who are likely targets usually get basic escape and evasion training for driving around.
If offered this by all means TAKE IT, if nothing else you get to do crazy stunts in the company car and learn skills that can be translated to your urban driving needs.
But for even a clerk working overnight in crappy neighborhood 7-11 up to someone working in some yugoslav free fire zone one basic rule applies. NEVER ESTABLISH A ROUTINE! A moving irregular taget it hard to hit. Be late, be early, use different routes around the work place, going to work. Its the ones who park themselves at the counter and zone out(in the 7-11 situation) that make prime targets to get robbed. Or the guy who picks up the other workers at checkpoint B at 9:14 every day on the dot for the last 3 months that get hit first.
And best of all, in a zone where people are getting shot at, you don't have 4 hours meetings 3 days a week about why productivity is taking a dive since the meetings started 6 months ago. You gotta love a work environment where getting the job done, and not getting shot at are pretty much the ONLY goals.
Theres also the perks of being paid insane sums, having quality foreign goods for dirt cheap prices, and spending money on only small high quality goods that can be shipped back easily. Rather than getting stupid and buring tons of money on cheap bulky K-mart grade throw away crap every week like when you are back home.
Funny you bring up Lagos. I'm on my way there next week to collect my share of a $50 MILLION USD by pretending to be from the family of the ousted ruler. A very friendly and religious Nigerian gentleman hand picked me as the best candidate for the role. As soon as they receive my passport copy & banking information I sent, they'll give me the OK to proceed. I'm on my way to living the good life!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/09/iraq/mai n577335.shtml
..or..
s tm
..or..
October 9, 2003. The same month that the report you cite says only 24 people were killed in Baghdad.
Yet 8 people died (not counting the 2 in the car) in that SINGLE attack. And those people were NOT Coalition or CGA. They were Iraqis.
Which means that either the numbers you're citing are NOT calculated the way you claim they are
Baghdad has almost ZERO violence with only 16 people being murdered there in October 2003.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3216539.
Seems that lots of Iraqis have died.
Again, either the numbers are not calculated the way you claim
well, there is no "or" now, is there?
I know you're trolling, but try to separate the actions of the military, and the actions of civilian workers who went there afterwards to *help* build and rebuild.
I'm not trolling. There are people here who are politicized heavily on both ends of the spectrum that apparently don't like looking at the situation over there from anyone else's point of view other than the extremely narrow, politically-correct vantage point.
Until I read this thread, I would have thought that civilians working on reconstruction over there would be acceptable and lauded by both sides of the political spectrum, both pro and anti-war.
It's a nice idea in theory and I appreciate that, but IMO, which seems to be backed up by an overwhelming majority of reports and actions (a great source of real perspective can be found watching MOSAIC, LinkTV's daily broadcasts of Middle Eastern news reports) indicate that not unlike how mainstream America seems to generalize that all Muslims are "evil-doers", the Muslims pretty much consider all Westerners the same. You can go over there with good intentions, but like most, these people base their impression on you off of actions, and most of the actions perpetrated in that region are not logical, nor moral.
This to me is analagous to going into a neighborhood from far away, announcing that the neighborhood is infested with termites and, without any discussion, burning the neighborhood to the ground and destroying peoples' homes. Then you want to come in and rebuild the neighborhood? Do you honestly think the people who have had their houses destroyed by this aggressive invader really want those that did the initial destruction to come in and rebuild?
That's really a ridiculous assumption.
Do you want the Dentist who screwed up your teeth to fix it? Do you call the plumber back in that messed up your pipes? No, you don't trust someone who comes into your home with one plan, then changes the plan and terribly inconsistent and hypocritical in terms of their actions & objectives.
The Americans came into Iraq with the idea of dethroning Saddam. Well he's long gone. They say they want to give Iraq back to the people, but they went into the country based on lies, and the things they promised have proven to not come to pass. Why should the Iraqis trust Americans? If the tables were turned, I doubt any Americans would want the invaders of their country sticking around to help rebuild it.
So if you want to go over there to make some money, you're taking a real big risk walking into a region where you are not wanted and not liked. What you think is irrelevant. It's what they think. It's their community.
The drug dealer analogy holds true in my opinion. I don't see much moral usefulness walking into that hornet's nest, at least not hand-in-hand with defense contractors and super large corporations who are profiting from all the death and destruction over there. If you want to help, I'd recommend donating resources and time to organizations that are outside of the military industrial complex, and those that are sanctioned by the Iraqis themselves.
Why do WE need to "qualify" them or "oversee" them?
They built the place before we bombed it.
well, *I* laughed.
What's the problem?
You had said:
"Look, numbers don't lie. Plain facts don't lie. Last December, the story broke that the homicide rate in Baghdad had fallen to below the largest American cities. If you took the military casualties out of the equation, the Baghdad murder rate was lower than any American city."
You cited a report that said that only TWENTY-FOUR people were killed in Baghdad in October 2003 (aside from the anti-coalition killings).
I said that those anti-coalition killings are exactly what a contractor over there would need to worry about.
You said that such was not the case. You said that those 24 killing INCLUDED all the killings not (and here I'll just quote you)...
"Um... yeah. That's what I said. I said that if you take out the military casualties, the Baghdad homicide rate is lower than any US city."
So I went back and pulled stories of Iraqis being killing, in October 2003, that were NOT in the military (or Coalition or CGA as you like to phrase it).
Strangely, the numbers I pulled from those stories EXCEEDED the 24 deaths in the story you cited.
So, is the story you cited incorrect?
Or did you not understand how they arrived at only 24 deaths in October 2003?
Awwwww..., did poor widdle baby fall for someone else's propoganda and fail to check the real facts himself?
Awwwww.....
I've started a website. geekiniraq
Answer: The germans never named militairy hardware after races/tribes they wiped out.
Actually, the Germans didn't wipe anyone out. They tried to, but they lost. Native Americans were a lot easier to fight than Russians armed with T-34s and supplied by American trucks. Americans got the Western USA for their efforst. Germans got Russian soldiers buggaring their wives and daughters in East Prussia.
Boy, Hitler was stupid.
This is my sig.
Actually, the conquest of the west was done in part by Germans coming from the old world to the new. So, the Germans good at conquering came over, and helped conquer the indians, but the rest stayed behind. Now if only we would have gotten the ones good at making cars.
This is my sig.
Listen guys...
I've had 3 friends go to Iraq for contract work. They said that they felt more safe in the streets of baghdad than in detroit. The american contractors are guarded 24/7 by contract mercs, and foreign special forces troops. One guy I talked to said that usually it's the stupid people that get abducted by being in places that their not supposed to be. He said that if you just use common sense, and do what you are told, it is very safe for an american contractor in iraq.
Say that others have survived such contract jobs and made a fortune doing it. What difference does it make? You still have to make up your own mind about whether it's worth the risk to you, and just how much you need the hazard pay.
It wouldn't be worth it to me, but I'm able to pay my rent right now. I'd guess it's more likely than not that you'd live through such a mission, but I'd rather take my risks on a motorcycle.
-Rich
This American Life is a PRI program. Many public radio stations that carry NPR programming also carry PRI programming, but it's not the same thing.
shut the fuck up. really, how do you manage to find the time to write up this inane shit? you're a fuckin fag, and your site sucks cock.
This is just some guy's karma whoring account. Mod him down when you can.