Slashdot Mirror
Bioterrorism Charges Brought Against Professor
gnetwerker writes "Wired
and others are reporting about artist Steve Kurtz, professor at Univesity of Buffalo (NY), and member of the
Critical Art Ensemble will face a Grand Jury in two weeks on bioterrorism charges over artwork that used samples of harmless bacteria to make a statement about genetic engineering and food safety. He is charged with BioTerrorism under Section 817 of the PATRIOT Act. Apparently
John Ashcroft can't tell a weapons lab from an art installation. There is more info and a
Defense Fund on the CAE Defense Fund Site."
"Deconstructing and disrupting the growth of genetically modified foods" might be done as a piece of performance art, but it's still vandalism and destuction of somebody else's property.
I don't care if these people's intent is to improve the American government by teaching it something the hard way and to do their best not to harm anybody seriously in the process. They're still practicing terrorism in that releasing something genetically modified into the environment is likely to cause a scare even if it's found to be harmless later. And, in a worst case, these guys could botch it all up and cause the kind of environmental harm that they're so scared Monsanto will cause.
At least Monsanto does its best to follow the laws... these people seem to have no respect for the law at all.
But I think creating genetically-modified foods in the first place are terrorist activites!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The guy is being charged because his otherwise healthy wife in her 40s, mysteriously died.
He is not being held on the patriot act, but a much older late 80's U.S. Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989.
Good god. I'm not fond of Ashcroft or the PATRIOT Act, but not everything is a conspiracy, you know.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
This man is an activist! What the hell is our government smoking? The man's wife died, which probably had an effect on his life and goals. Since when is a political statement grounds for federal charges? What will be next - will I br imprisoned for life without trial in solitary for burning a flag?
Who else here thinks the government has gone too far? Is there no way to stop this insanity?
Ads? What ads?
This guy was arrested for things in his own home. The Police are treating this just like finding a huge cache of explosives or something, when in fact its what (he claims) is harmless bacteria.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Where did it mention anything about a security checkpoint? Where did it mention smuggling?
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
The FBI announced today that TCBY (The Country's Best Yogurt) has been shut down until further notice under section 817 of the PATRIOT Act.
Unknown host pong.
Frankly, I really should be up to a jury to decide. I mean, He wasn't out spraying crops or anything. He was simply tooling around in his house with "harmless" bacteria and writing crazed manifestos.
Was he "practicing" terrorism? No. But neither were the 9/11 hijackers untill that day.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"Apparently John Ashcroft can't tell a weapons lab from an art installation."
I believe that should read: "Apparently John Ashcroft can't tell his head from his ass."
...and you didn't even read the article. Not only is your comment stupid, it's completely irrelevant to the story.
...it's probably an illegal biotech lab by their definitions too. I really need to throw out that months-old foil-wrapped leftover something-or-other in there.
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I think that our ability to change our selves and the world around us for our own emprovement is what makes us homo sapiens sapiens - wise men (and women). People who try to stop this are dehumanizing modern society - "terrorists," since that's the word in style for describing evil.
Simon's Rock College
Why no ask John Ashcroft?
or mabey sign a petition?
Why don't we just write him a letter:
Attorney General John Ashcroft
950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20530
Fax: (202) 307-6777
Phone: (202) 353-1555
I didn't think it was that far off topic.
Huh? I'm so confused.
He didn't actually use the stuff on other people's crops, or do any of these things that he *could* have done. He advocated doing it.
I mean, there are plenty of organizations in America which advocate doing ridiculous things, none of which are called in to testify on charges of actually doing the things with no concrete evidence. I mean, being a member of a white supremacist group and owning a machine gun doesn't mean you're a murdering psycho and can be thrown away for it, even I'd wager most Americans are strongly against white supremacists and a good deal of them are against high-powered weapon ownership.
I read both linked articles. I've searched them for patriot as well as 817. No hits. It sounds like this guy is being charged with a law signed 15 years ago, brought to attention by a mysterious death of his wife. From the Wired writeup, I'd say he's done activities which would make me slightly suspicious. Enough to warrant an investigation at least.
So where's the PATRIOT act charges come from? Because Slashdot isn't showing it.
Bush's Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides By DOUG THOMPSON Publisher, Capitol Hill Blue Jun 4, 2004, 06:15
President George W. Bush's increasingly erratic behavior and wide mood swings has the halls of the West Wing buzzing lately as aides privately express growing concern over their leader's state of mind.
In meetings with top aides and administration officials, the President goes from quoting the Bible in one breath to obscene tantrums against the media, Democrats and others that he classifies as "enemies of the state."
Worried White House aides paint a portrait of a man on the edge, increasingly wary of those who disagree with him and paranoid of a public that no longer trusts his policies in Iraq or at home.
"It reminds me of the Nixon days," says a longtime GOP political consultant with contacts in the White House. "Everybody is an enemy; everybody is out to get him. That's the mood over there."
In interviews with a number of White House staffers who were willing to talk off the record, a picture of an administration under siege has emerged, led by a man who declares his decisions to be "God's will" and then tells aides to "fuck over" anyone they consider to be an opponent of the administration.
"We're at war, there's no doubt about it. What I don't know anymore is just who the enemy might be," says one troubled White House aide. "We seem to spend more time trying to destroy John Kerry than al Qaeda and our enemies list just keeps growing and growing."
Aides say the President gets "hung up on minor details," micromanaging to the extreme while ignoring the bigger picture. He will spend hours personally reviewing and approving every attack ad against his Democratic opponent and then kiss off a meeting on economic issues.
"This is what is killing us on Iraq," one aide says. "We lost focus. The President got hung up on the weapons of mass destruction and an unproven link to al Qaeda. We could have found other justifiable reasons for the war but the President insisted the focus stay on those two, tenuous items."
Aides who raise questions quickly find themselves shut out of access to the President or other top advisors. Among top officials, Bush's inner circle is shrinking. Secretary of State Colin Powell has fallen out of favor because of his growing doubts about the administration's war against Iraq.
The President's abrupt dismissal of CIA Directory George Tenet Wednesday night is, aides say, an example of how he works.
"Tenet wanted to quit last year but the President got his back up and wouldn't hear of it," says an aide. "That would have been the opportune time to make a change, not in the middle of an election campaign but when the director challenged the President during the meeting Wednesday, the President cut him off by saying 'that's it George. I cannot abide disloyalty. I want your resignation and I want it now."
Tenet was allowed to resign "voluntarily" and Bush informed his shocked staff of the decision Thursday morning. One aide says the President actually described the decision as "God's will."
God may also be the reason Attorney General John Ashcroft, the administration's lightning rod because of his questionable actions that critics argue threatens freedoms granted by the Constitution, remains part of the power elite. West Wing staffers call Bush and
@de_machina
With any luck they'll never see the vegetable bin in my refrigerator..
The Buffalo Five, the Buffalo Spammer, and now Steve Kurtz. Can't Buffalonians get a break? Any minute now, the Torontonians of Slashdot will probably start posting the usual Irv Weinstein references. "Blaze busters battle a five bell barn burner in Cheektowaga!" C'mon ... let's just get it over with already, okay?
CAE's latest project, included a mobile DNA extraction laboratory for testing food products for possible transgenic contamination. It was this equipment which triggered the Kafkaesque chain of events.
FBI field and laboratory tests have shown that Kurtz's equipment was not used for any illegal purpose. In fact, it is not even _possible_ to use this equipment for the production or weaponization of dangerous germs. Furthermore, any person in the US may legally obtain and possess such equipment.
If that's true (and the quote does come from the CAE defense fund page - obviously a biased source), it doesn't seem to me like anyone could have much of a case against him.
I think this is just a symptom of a more general problem - most people don't understand the biology of transgenic food, and ignorance breeds fear and suspicion. There's also the conflation of ideas between transgenic plants and bioterror organisms. Yes, some of the same lab techniques of gene manipulation might be used in both, but "transgenic" seems to get confused with "harmful".
I would be awfully surprised if this guy was growing something in his home that caused the death of his wife. And if he did, chances are it came in on whatever material he was studying - in which case that's who should be investigated.
On the one hand, I think Mr. Kurtz probably should have set up a lab in his university rather than doing it in his home. But to lose your wife (most likely to some freak of chance - an undetected heart problem, or whatever) and your livelihood as well, is a steep price to pay.
I took a shit today, and shit has loads of bacteria. I'm gonna be locked up and tortured in Iraq, help!
Table-ized A.I.
You poor saps in the States, through artwork and harmless economical(?) advocacy, you get slammed under some tyranical act.
So Kerry's actually more at fault for the Patriot act than Ashcroft or even GWB himself (on the theory that a 99-1 or so would override any attempt at a veto, not that W would have even thought of doing that...). Ashcroft's charged with enforcing the laws, not making them.
He should have incorporated under the guise of doing GMO development. Asscrap never would have touched him.
By that reasoning, if I have an unregistered physics lab, is that "grounds for nuclear terrorism"? (Answer: No.) There are a whole hell of a lot of things you can do with a biolab, most of which have nothing to do with bioterrorism. I'm not surprised the feds are investigating (hey, someone died; if someone died in my home physics lab, i'd expect them to investigate too), but calling this bio-terror is about the most absurd thing i've ever heard.
The CAE presents its performance arts pieces as satire. But the group's electronic books, with introductions featuring quotes from the likes of Malcolm X ("By any means necessary," is one of the quotes), may have the federal government suspecting that artists connected to the ensemble harbor sinister motives.
One of the ensemble's e-books advocates releasing mutant organisms into the environment to disrupt the work of biotech firms. Another proposes secretly releasing mutated flies into restaurants.
The CAE says this tactic, which it calls "fuzzy biological sabotage," would encourage "those who never would join a movement (to) become unknowing cohorts or willing allies" in the struggle against the biotech industry.
Let's not mention that his "healthy" wife was found dead in their home among all the bio-lab equipment. Just another example of the Man keeping an artist down! He's an artist and an activist - so they shouldn't even investigate the bio-lab in his house, or his views on releasing mutant organisms in the wild! It's his constitutional right!
The slant on this posting is reprehensible. If you want to stand up for this guy, I suggest you take a trip to his house, go inside and take a deep breath.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Is this news or is it just the expected Ashcroftian behaviour?
Move along
. . .charges over artwork that used samples of harmless bacteria to make a statement about . . .
. . . is so very different from:
Kurtz's work and his beliefs are more radical than those of many of his peers. He has written proposals for releasing mutant flies into restaurants, and demonstrated methods for destroying genetically modified crops.
Tests of the suspect materials at the Kurtzes' home could only have found nonpathogenic strains of E. coli, Serratia and Bacillus globigii, according to Da Costa, who contributed to the CAE's GenTerra piece.
But local and federal authorities are reacting appropriately to the discovery of a suspect biological and chemical laboratory in the Kurtzes' home, said a law enforcement analyst with the University of Maine who helped formulate protocols for responding to bioterrorism attacks in Maine's urban areas.
"Unless you know what the heck you're doing," said Richard Mears, assistant professor of criminal justice at the University of Maine at Augusta, "you can get hurt playing games with microbes."
Even harmless bacteria can become harmful under certain, but extremely rare, circumstances, said Richard Roberts, a leading DNA researcher.
Today's the day. It now appears that a judge and jury will ultimately decide whether and how artists will be allowed to work with the materials that scientists are trusted with daily inside biotech laboratories. \
Just now? Today? There aren't already regulations in place to limit who can run bio-labs or what qualifications the must have, or what safety protocols they must follow? Aaaaargh!
The Department of Justice this week took steps toward charging Steven Kurtz with running an illegal biotech laboratory in the Kurtzes' home in Buffalo, New York.
Bravo, I say. Art or not, some things are (or/and) should be regulated, restricted, subject to inspection and enforcement, etc. and f'ing biotech labs is one of them, IMHO.
everything in moderation
Used bacteria for art? Come on now, this euro-trash thing has gone WAY too far.
(1) You would discover, in both the Wired and USA Today pieces, that Mr. Kurtz is *not* being charged under the Patriot Act. If he is charged with anything, it will be an older act related to bioterrism. He is not being charged under the Patriot Act. He is NOT being charged under the Patriot Act (did it get through?)
(2) Mr. Kurtz hasn't been formally charged with anything. He is currently the subject of a investigation brought about by the death of his wife. This investigation may or may not result in an indictment. Take this fact into consideration before forking over $$ to this "defense fund" (for which there is a VERY convienient link).
From the Wired story: "The subpoenas cited Section 175 of the U.S. Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act of 1989, which prohibits the use of certain biological materials for anything other than a "prophylactic, protective, bona fide research, or other peaceful purpose."
Section 817 of the PATRIOT Act is not mentioned in either linked story.
Wow. Some people have been subpoenaed to get facts about this case. What an unheard of trampling of rights.
Someone needs to do some fact checking before posting.
"Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph
did you actually read the article? there are no "fake bioterror weapons".
Shit like this is only going to continue to happen more and more often...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again(I wasn't first to say this, mind you)...
if you want an unlimited source of free energy, just attach a turbine to George Orwell's body
Orwell's vision is coming true, little by little by little... and if the American people don't stand up and do something about it, pretty soon it will be too late (if it's not already).
There's an election coming up folks... think long and hard about whether the people you're voting for are FOR or AGAINST this kind of shit. My suspicion is that any major party candidate is FOR this shit, personally.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
As other posters point out, he didn't RTFA and just got modded up for FPing with proper grammer.
As others have alreadt pointed out, the police got suspecious when they were in his house investigating a death. So they had every reason in the world to be there, and since the spouse is always the first suspect, he had to get investigated until they were SURE the death was from natural causes. They were doing their job, by the book.
Next we get this paragraph in the story:
"Kurtz created a display of small soy, corn and canola plants growing under large incubating lamps. The exhibit said some of the plants had been treated with a compound that made them vulnerable to herbicide. A nearby computer screen explained that, if successful, the compound would be the newest weapon in the war on advanced agricultural technology."
Sounds like typical "Earth First!" ecoterrorism brewing to me. Combine this with a peek at this asshat's website and a mention of "critical theory" on the toplevel, which anyone who follows politics knows is code for "Marxist" in much the same way that "liberal" has been replaced with "progressive" in modern usage as the old terms become associated with failed policies, ruined economies and mass graves. So is this guy a terrorist? Perhaps not himself.... yet. Does he consort with them? Probably. Does he support their aims? By his own admission, an unqualified yes.
Democrat delenda est
I will try to give a clear view on the situation here, because not everyone is getting the full picture here.
This is a sensibilisation project around genetically modified food. They try to inform the public about the misjudgements and myths of gentechnology.
To express the commodoty of genetically modified food, you can bring some food you bought and let it be analysed in a mobile lab. The only thing they do there is perform some dna-test. It has little to do about hasardous materials. The charges are mainly related to some equipment used to extract dna. You can't do anything harmfull with them
- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
As other readers have pointed out, he isn't charged with the patriot act, but with a 1989 law. Also, reading the facts pointed out in the article and his wife's mysterious demise, I'd have to say, I am sure glad I live in a country were someone would investigate this!!!??!!! Geeze. A few snips below. Also, by the way, isn't this the area where someone was suspected might be behind the anthrax killings?
... ... ...
-----
The CAE presents its performance arts pieces as satire. But the group's electronic books, with introductions featuring quotes from the likes of Malcolm X ("By any means necessary," is one of the quotes), may have the federal government suspecting that artists connected to the ensemble harbor sinister motives.
One of the ensemble's e-books advocates releasing mutant organisms into the environment to disrupt the work of biotech firms. Another proposes secretly releasing mutated flies into restaurants.
The CAE says this tactic, which it calls "fuzzy biological sabotage," would encourage "those who never would join a movement (to) become unknowing cohorts or willing allies" in the struggle against the biotech industry.
Except you are using the toy gun to make threats to coerce money from the other person for your own purposes.
What!? Today it's the mad scientists, tomorrow it'll be the mad grad students. When will it end?
Not noteable, IMO a rubbish article.
I typed "Anarchist's Cookbook" in Google.
I clicked a chapter. This is what I found:
Unstable Explosives by the Jolly Roger
Mix solid Nitric Iodine with househould ammonia. Wait overnight and then pour off the liquid. You will be left with a muddy substance. Let this dry till it hardens. Now throw it at something!!!!
Read the last sentence. What was your point, exactly?
Our justice department, using its overwhelming powers granted in the aptly named PATRIOT ACT, cannot make mistakes!! If the government says this man is a terrorist, then he is!
Question them, you're on the list next...
Love thy country, fear they government.
*DrugCheese rants*
Don't mean to repeat myself, but the critical importance of this IMO necessitates this...
Al Gore's speech last week touched on some of the issues here and I think he expressed them poignantly. Everyone should see this speech. video [c-span.org] or audio [rbn.com].
"President Bush is claiming the unilateral right to do that to any American citizen he believes is an "enemy combatant." Those are the magic words. If the President alone decides that those two words accurately describe someone, then that person can be immediately locked up and held incommunicado for as long as the President wants, with no court having the right to determine whether the facts actually justify his imprisonment.
Now if the President makes a mistake, or is given faulty information by somebody working for him, and locks up the wrong person, then it's almost impossible for that person to prove his innocence - because he can't talk to a lawyer or his family or anyone else and he doesn't even have the right to know what specific crime he is accused of committing. So a constitutional right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness that we used to think of in an old-fashioned way as "inalienable" can now be instantly stripped from any American by the President with no meaningful review by any other branch of government.
How do we feel about that? Is that OK?
Here's another recent change in our civil liberties: Now, if it wants to, the federal government has the right to monitor every website you go to on the internet, keep a list of everyone you send email to or receive email from and everyone who you call on the telephone or who calls you - and they don't even have to show probable cause that you've done anything wrong. Nor do they ever have to report to any court on what they're doing with the information. Moreover, there are precious few safeguards to keep them from reading the content of all your email.
Everybody fine with that?
If so, what about this next change?
For America's first 212 years, it used to be that if the police wanted to search your house, they had to be able to convince an independent judge to give them a search warrant and then (with rare exceptions) they had to go bang on your door and yell, "Open up!" Then, if you didn't quickly open up, they could knock the door down. Also, if they seized anything, they had to leave a list explaining what they had taken. That way, if it was all a terrible mistake (as it sometimes is) you could go and get your stuff back.
But that's all changed now. Starting two years ago, federal agents were given broad new statutory authority by the Patriot Act to "sneak and peak" in non-terrorism cases. They can secretly enter your home with no warning - whether you are there or not - and they can wait for months before telling you they were there. And it doesn't have to have any relationship to terrorism whatsoever. It applies to any garden-variety crime. And the new law makes it very easy to get around the need for a traditional warrant - simply by saying that searching your house might have some connection (even a remote one) to the investigation of some agent of a foreign power. Then they can go to another court, a secret court, that more or less has to give them a warrant whenever they ask.
Three weeks ago, in a speech at FBI Headquarters, President Bush went even further and formally proposed that the Attorney General be allowed to authorize subpoenas by administrative order, without the need for a warrant from any court.
What about the right to consult a lawyer if you're arrested? Is that important?
Attorney General Ashcroft has issued regulations authorizing the secret monitoring of attorney-client conversations on his say-so alone; bypassing procedures for obtaining prior judicial review for such monitoring in the rare instances when it was permitted in the past. Now, whoever is in custody has to assume that the government is always listening to consultations between them and their lawyers.
Does
The blog post linked in the summary (as John Aschroft) contains what appears to be an entire Vanity Fair article. While it's properly attributed, it will no doubt be removed via pressure from somewhere or other; most likely not at the request of Vanity Fair, but by someone else using the article's copyright as a straw man.
A tC 9SDv5lYw/Ashcroft.txt
The text has been mirrored for posterity in the Freenet network at:
CHK@~hhRclleaZhvLuTqszqG3ZuoGCsQAwI,u3nABqXhTmG
If the CHK@ is greek to you, please have a look at the Freenet project.
America has gone insane... we need more Moore, less Bush...
A corpse in the kitchen with an unknown cause of death and a stack of bacterial cultures ought to be cause for concern for the police and ought to prompt a police investigation. Furthermore, determining whether some genetically engineered bacteria are dangerous or not is far from trivial, so it's not like one can just look at the situation and determine that it is harmless. So, no, I don't think police overreacted in this case. Take away the corpse, and maybe one could say that they overreacted. Even then, dangerous and harmless kinds of experiments are difficult to tell apart, and the question of why this work isn't happening in a lab, with proper documentation and notification, is still valid.
Steven Kurtz sounds like a bit of a nutjob to me. Unless his 'proposal for the release of mutant flies in restaurants' is Johnathan Swift style satire.
Most biotech scientists would support labelling of GM foods. Only the Monsato's of the world oppose this. It's a reasonable, conservative viewpoint. When that doesn't occur, the crazies come out and want to release mutant flies, or do other insane things.
People with these type of radical viewpoints will continue to grow in the U.S., as the government becomes more disconnected from the people.
(eg. Because of congressional gerrymandering something like 80% of U.S. house representatives are in safe districts, and have almost no risk of party loss in an election.)
The consequence of this is that these politicians have less incentive to worry about the concerns of their electorate. Enter the lobbyists to fill this time on their hands.
Why is it that genetic manipulation to make more and better food is bad, but genetic manipulation (with intentional release into the wild) to protest something is good? Why is it that when Monsanto says they've tested the GM crops to be safe, they are disbelieved on general principles, but when some art professors say THEIR GM bacteria are safe, they must know absolutely what they are talking about?
I can't believe I just read that. Maybe this country is going down the tubes after all. I'm very frightened for the future of freedom if political activism and terrorism are now one and the same.
Well, if you were trying to build a small nuclear reactor to power your home while spouting anti-whatever propaganda and someone ended up dead in your house under questionable circumstances... yeah, you'd probably be up on some heavy charges.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
Rescue workers from the Buffalo Fire Department responded on the morning of May 11 to a 911 call from the Kurtzes' home, where they found Hope Kurtz, whom a fellow artist and Kurtz family friend described as healthy and in her 40s, dead.
The rescue workers attending to Hope Kurtz were alarmed by the presence of petri dishes and lab equipment in the home, and called in local and federal hazmat teams, who quickly sealed off the residence and removed bacteria samples for testing by the New York State Department of Health in Albany.
The Erie County Medical Examiner's Office was unable to determine the exact cause of Hope Kurtz's death after an autopsy and toxicology tests, and ruled that she died of natural causes, said the family friend, Beatriz da Costa.
Ummm yeah, let's all rally behind this shitbird.
But be sure to wear your foil lined cognitive dissonance helmet
People know very little about the patriot act, it is actually hard to use it, because you have to convince a federal judge to grant a warrent under the act. It doesn't give the government a be-all end all right of invastion of priviouy, it just consolidates many of the common requests for wire-tapping and other things, that would require seperate warrents. So in essesnse it speeds up a process doesn't change it or grant any more rights or take away any more. This is probably one of the biggest mist conseptions that has been spread by the anti-patriot act people, and most of those people just use it to bash the president, they aren't really concerned with the rights of the people, just more of gaining power back.
/. news post is totally off base and probably has a bias against Aschroft (i.e. Bush).
Also in the wired article it states: "But Kurtz's work and his beliefs are more radical than those of many of his peers. He has written proposals for releasing mutant flies into restaurants, and demonstrated methods for destroying genetically modified crops. And it is Kurtz's views, his supporters say, that have Kurtz on the wrong side of a federal investigation sparked by the death of his wife, Hope Kurtz."
This professor has talked about in papers of releasing genetically engineered flies into resurants, and destroying crops that have been genetically modified. These might be on the lower end of the terrorism totem-pole, but it is still a terroist act. And all of this was sparked by a pecular death of his wife, normally deaths are handled by local cops, unless something really weird is going on that requires the FBI.
So this is IMHO a perfectly good use of the Patriot act. Just remember, that a judge has to agree to sign the warrent inorder for the patriot act to be used. And many of the Federal judges in the past couple of months have rejected the use of the patriot act for stuff they didn't deam in the realm of what is required to warrent one. In addition Ashcroft has been rejected many times by Federal judges including a couple big ones in Chicago about doctors records. So the author of this
Take my comments at what you will, but if you want the real truth go read the patriot act on the U.S. Congress web site.
Terrorism charges were brought against all professors that used surprise exams against students.
Neither article claims that the man was charged.
They investigate. They indict or not after their investigation.
This is a perfect case for a grand jury. There was a lot of stuff going on. Some of it seems criminal at first, but may not be.
The grand jury is there to decide what to do.
How should they decide whether to indict? Coin flip? Slashdot poll?
Also: The FBI is involved because there's an investigation to determine whether a Federal law has been broken. I is for Investigation. F is for Federal.
I am only talking to the people in this forum that I called the PRESIDENT, Mr. Bush. It is PRESIDENT Bush, not Mr. Show a little respect, if not for the man, at least the position.
I think there are far worse offenders to this bioterroism act than mere artists!
Anyone who has stepped into an outhouse, public washroom or campground should know. There are far worse things to breathe and smell. Among the symptoms: disorientation, feelings of nauseousness, headache, sensation of vomiting.... Those capabable of producing such things should be isolated from society! I am much more scared of these people than artists!
wow, thats pretty vague.
If you're basing your vote around the patriot act, why should we give our vote to someone that helped write it?
I like the following quote from the article the best (emphasis mine):
Apparently John Ashcroft can't tell a weapons lab from an art installation.
Of course he can tell the difference --
* An artist is a dangerous subversive, who must be arrested to stop the spread of ideas.
* A bio-weapons specialist is a valuable national resource, who must be recruited to work for Homeland Security.
-kgj
-kgj
LMAO!!!
-- Note to liberals, yes please flee to Canada.
Kerry has been in government for a long time.
If he was going to make some kind of huge changes, wouldn't he already have been working on them?
Don't get me wrong, Bush stinks, but Kerry is just more of the same also.
I'm not voting for Kang or Kodos.
Actually, its "Univeristy at Buffalo" (short for State University of New York at Buffalo) not "University of Buffalo".
If you think anything will change with Kerry in office, think again. He comes from a very similar background (wealthy family, Skull and Bones) and will be just as easy to bribe as any Republican.
Do you know John Ashcroft lost an election against a dead man? The people said: "Sorry Ashcroft, but the dead man scares us less than you do."
Attorney General John Ashcroft had surgery to remove his gall bladder. Doctors say the surgery was difficult because Ashcroft refused to take his clothes off.
"The fact that he's being questioned by a grand jury is not alarming."
Really? I would get alarmed any time there is a chance I'll be put on trial and my life wrecked.
But perhaps someone like you who has been in court many times; this is not such a big deal to you?
The fact that he's being questioned by a grand jury is not alarming... if he's charged then we're all going to deserve to see more proof as to why, but so far I see nothing wrong with trying to find out if there's a link to the suspect materials that we just haven't discovered yet.
Getting questioned by a grand jury is pretty alarming because it means someone is seeking an indictment against you for a crime. Prosecutors get indictments at a high rate because the defendant does not have a chance to present evidence or cross-examine witnesses. It's all the prosecutor's show at that point.
So yeah, getting indicted for a crime such as murder is a bad thing. You get arrested and as such. It's more than the police or DA asking you questions or holding you as a witness.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Whether capable or not himself, this f**kwit is advocating not merely terrorism, but BIOTERRORISM, which is about as uncontrolled as you can get. I might give him credit for being an ignorant jackass, but he's still a jackass and he's still advocating actions which could be hugely destructive for a very long time. I say jail the f**ker for advocating acts of mass destruction and forget the art installation. It was probably pretty lame anyway.
"We are free to to whatever we want in the U.S.A., but there are consequences. If you infringe on other people's rights, you will be prosecuted.
Killing you wife, for instance, is a crime. "
Let me get this straight. You're saying we're free to kill anybody, but there are consequences?
Perhaps you misunderstand what "free" and "freedom" mean. Here's Encarta's definition:
FREEDOM - ability to act freely: a state in which somebody is able to act and live as he or she chooses, without being subject to any, or to any undue, restraints and restrictions
Wow. Sounds like you're mistaken. Freedom means that you can do something without restraints or restrictions.
So your example, if you'll pardon my phrase, is complete bullshit.
Oh, and Bush is probably the worst president of the last 100 years, and I even voted for the guy. Worst mistake I've made in a voting booth.
This administration has trouble making a great deal of distinctions. Let's see what this phrase brings to mind:
Nobody died, when Clinton lied.
OH wait, they found 2 old shells with trace residues!
Best of all this case will give more existing material to use to erase the Constitution. That is if there is no place else in the world to play Cowboys & Muslims.
http://toostupidtobepresident.com
Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing it's idiot...
John Ashcroft lost TO A DEAD GUY!
If you run for office, and the guy running against you isn't a guy, but a piece of rotting flesh, and yet the rotting flesh gets more votes for you, what does that tell us about the loser of that race?
How did bush think Ashcroft was a good idea for AG? OH right, a president who is a complete moron, a.k.a. GW Bush. A guy who can't even control his own daughters, much less a big complicated country.
This is up there with FBI's alert about people with maps and or almanacs.
And the FBIs' investigation of a book that contained 100yr old smallpox scabs and launched an investigation as to whether or not it was bioterrorism.
The fact is a woman died and the fact is the womans death was ruled "due to natural causes". So pardon me, but I do not see how a jury grand or not could be a better judge than a doctor trained to perform an autopsy and atoxicilogy lab. Perhaps if they ordered a few additional autopsies and toxicology tests... but a grand jury should not be concerned with a procedure so mundane as to have already been done by the police department.
That and the additional fact that no cultures have been found at said lab that pose any threat.
Overall, this does not add up.
It seems once again those who have brains and initiative should bee feared. Why doesn't Ashcroft just come out and say it? "All people with higher education than a highschool degree are a potential threat and should be watched closely".
Next thing you know the DoJ will be demanding the banning of home chemistry sets currently available at Toys 'R' Us and Walmart due to a "A very present and significant threat by educated youngsters against the free people of the world."
I mean really, people have been working microbes and selectively breeding organisms for thousands of years.
Modern industrial processes and practices have essentially supressed the knowledge in the general population of how our foodstuffs, beverages, drugs and other products are produced, and attempt to disguise as completely as possible the materials, and biological processes that are used in their production.
As a result, when sucking back a 6-pack of beer we don't think about the bacteria and biological reactions necessary to make it.
We don't think, when eating cheese, that maybe we're exposing ourselves to potentially fatal biological agents.
When you light up a cigarette, you don't really think about the centuries of genetic engineering that has resulted in the smooth taste of your laramie.
Bacteria is bad because some bacteria will kill us? Is this really the US government's message?
That learning for yourself and practicing the same techniques that are some of the foundations of modern civilisation is somehow wrong?
If its not in a can or a plastic package with pretty branding, it can't be right?
If its not part of a commercial process, it should be banned?
This is a massive over-reaction by the government - A corporation doing exactly the same thing is not in breach of the law.
When Jesus Christ turned water into wine, was he a frickin bio-terrorist?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
The agents asked the gallery director whether she believed Steven Kurtz holds anti-American sentiments
*cough* McCarthyism *cough*...
Whats next? 20-25 year old men with there fridges full of bioterrorism projects.
On a related note don't leave milk in a fridge for a month after it expires it gets so that the jug is about to explode.
The preceding was meant to be funny please mod as such.
After sending me money you too can learn how to make money from home by opposing the PATRIOT Act
As of today, two organizations utilizing "FUD" marketing principles are attempting to earn money from home to support their Brie & Strawberry addictions.
CAE Defense Fund
ACLU
... learn what these individuals have not yet learned.
:-(:-(:-(]
... link for those who have never bothered to read the PATRIOT Act source documentation
Only by sending me money now to my Nigerian Bank Account will you move from the Ruby to Emerald Level of the "Earn Money From Home By Sowing Patriot Act FUD (EMFHBSPFUD)"
You must act now!!!!
You must act now!!!!
You must act now!!!!
[HUMOR OFF
I believe Juanita
I got some stuff in the fridge that has been there for mm.. a while.. It has some stuff growing in it... it may have mutated...
sshh did you hear something?
CHEEZE IT they are on to us!
I recently had the honor of assisting a "Bio Artist" set up a show. He was one of the most fascinating (and nicest) artist (or scientist for that matter) I've ever met. Ariel works with stem cell research and photographs some of the more beautiful things he has seen under the microscope. Please check out his website (Just don't /. the heck out of it!) http://ruizialtaba.com/ I had a very interesting talk with him about art and science restricitons and how they are very much alike.
This is a conspiracy.
Microsoft and SCO must have secretly funded this person's art, and Ashcroft is taking advice from RIAA and the MPAA in order to prosecute him. Clearly, it's because he distributed his artwork over a p2p network and his wife was really murdered by secret microsoft ninjas.
Oh yeah, and BSD is dying.
OK, now does that sound "right" to any of you? To me it sounds like he's trying to create havoc "against" genetic engineering rather, than using it as an art. Maybe people shouldn't be so quick to protect him. Unless Wired phrased that wrong, of course.
Actually you don't even need a gun, just say you have one and keep a hand in a pocket.
I don't think there was a fake bio-weapon or even the pretense of one though.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
It's a clear case of journalism at its worst (after iraqi war coverage).
Reporters who don;t know the technicalities of a crime must be outlawed from covering the crime. Having a Lab is CERTAINLY not a crime...er...i think so.
Hail John Ashcroft !!
God Bless America!
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
All you conservative-types who are in favour of stripping liberty at the expense of "security" and "war" on terrorism should re-consider your positions. This latest example is nothing more than the future. As long as you conservatives (and clueless liberals) keep supporting things like this, it is only the beginning.
I guess people who were laughing at others over the concern of things like the Patriot Act hope learned a lesson...
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
This is the single most insightful and clearly stated anti-FUD I've ever seen on slashdot, and most other places.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The USA Today article states "No charges were brought against Kurtz." Three of his colleagues were subpoenaed to testify, but again, NO charges.
I dare say that when they're investigating the death of a family member and they find bacteriological lab equipment, they a) have the right to, and b) SHOULD err conservative and investigate what the heck has been going on. The article further states that the health officials had declared the apartment safe, and the artist was staying in a HOTEL while they were checking the apartment.
The grand jury has been convened so that some answers can be gotten as to what has been going on. Nothing unreasonable there.
--I am Sun Tzu of the Borg. Resistance is feudal.
That's what grand juries do, they check the evidence before someone can be charged with big crimes. That is their reason to exist. Along those lines, they have actual power to investigate. Grand jury members (normal citizens) may subpoena evidence, witnesses, etc. They decide if there is sufficient evidence to indicite someone, and if so on what crime, which allows it to proceed to trial.
So what we have here is due process at work as it should be. The DoJ thinks this guy might have comitted a crime (capital, or otherwise infamous crime, specifically), and they think there is enough evidence for trial for that. Well, that's not for them to decide in this case, that's for the grand jury. They must decide there is legally sufficient evidence and reasonable cause to believe. If they do, they return an indictment, and they can go to trial.
So your example, if you'll pardon my phrase, is complete bullshit.
Wrong. Try goggling "Schenck v. U.S." and see what comes up.
Oh, and Bush is probably the worst president of the last 100 years, and I even voted for the guy. Worst mistake I've made in a voting booth.
Presidents are ultimately judged by historians 10 or 20 years down the road. Comparing a sitting president to any previous president over the last 100 years is just absurd. Wait to see what comes about because of his actions before you pre-judge him. You may not like him or where he's leading the country. In that case, don't vote for him. But such a broad, sweeping statement is naive at best. Contrary to what you may believe, Bush's presidency won't be judged by the day-to-day successes and failures of his decisions. The big picture is all that will eventually matter.
Now Ashcroft's thugs just bust in, take all the gear (note: NONE of his art supplies have been returned, even though the place was declared "not a hazard") and then vow to prosecute.
Next thing, Widower Kurtz will be breakin' rock till Kingdom Comes in Gitmo.
Face it, folks, it's fascism. Pure and simple. A new kind of fascism, a marginally democratic, largely free market, and prozac addled, but still - it's the steel toed boot of authority stomping on the face of humanity. Again. And Again. And Again.
We have always been at war with EastAsia.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Check out these two articles: This one and this one
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Bacteria are not a threat to politicians. A Kurtz's radicalism is.
What makes referenced Patriot Act section extremely practical for political reuse is simple fact, that any chemical or biological substance could be considered as toxic, either in certain condition or in certain quantity.
Expired yoghurt? Molded bread? Can of meat forgotten on sunlight? Either of that is highly biologically dangerous material...
There you are, staring at me again.
Actually yes they have, no matter how much you want to deny it. We now live in a world where a few pissed off people can, using something like a biological weapon, kill hundreds, maybe even thousands or millions of people. That was not possible just a hundred years ago. Technology has drastically changed our world. So as it relates to this particular article, yes, it makes perfect sense to keep people from developing illegal biotechnology programs.
Look, I believe the best government is a limited government. I believe that government action should be confined to a few limited purposes. I also believe that one of the most important of those purposes is to protect the lives of the people who live under it. That is in effect what government is. You give up a few freedoms to gain some safety. Its a constant balancing act. Allowing some psycho "artist" to play around with potentially dangerous technologies would tip that balance way over to the side of life being "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
But hey, if you disagree, go find yourself some cabin out in Montana.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
US is becomming worse than USSR ever was!
... there's only so much sailormongering one can prosecute whilst fighting a War on Terra.
-oZ
Am I a bioterrorist? I will have collected a dangerous biological material, harvested it in my body, and exposed the public to the substance knowing its potential to cause harm.
Guess that means the yogurt industry is screwed.
thehomeland(.org)
Nice straw man, tbase. I've yet to see anyone but you say such a thing.
How about remembering that the good professor is innocent until proven guilty? I'd like to see real planning and materials pinned to the artist himself. What's being presented is petri dishes full of mold and literature, perhaps fantasy, from an organization the professor is a member of. It's all flimsy stuff that exposes problems with the Patriot Act.
Quoting Malcom X does not make you a terrorist any more than reprinting, "Give me liberty or give me death." does. Actions are what laws forbid, not thoughts.
A lab in your living room does not make you a terrorist either, but it looks like that will now get you into trouble with the Patriot act. While it seems clear that the "biological agents" found in the apartment were not harmful and not the cause of Hope's death, the lab itself is being treated as a weapon.
Where do you draw the line? If you can't breed bugs for art, what can you breed them for? Do you want to have to convince Big Brother you are politically correct when you want to grow brewer's yeast?
If you really want to be convinced of how harmless this group is, go visit their website yourself. The thing is a joke. The only thing that's disgusting is how far some prosecutor's clerk had to dig to find anything that looks threatening.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
How dare those evil scientists! Trying to feed starving kids in third world countries... When will man ever learn?
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
If you combine the death of his wife, the goals (satirical or not) of the organization this guy is a part of, and the fact that he does all this stuff from a lab in a residential area, it seems pretty clear to me that at least *investigating* would be an extremely appropriate thing to do. It appears that's what happened and the fact that they are leveling charges makes me think something was discovered.
Throwing up a lot of quotes of disbelief by various people associated with the projects does little to discount that the whole situation surrounding this guy is more than a bit strange.
This is far from an invasion of personal rights as some of you knee-jerk types would like to paint it...
The refrigerator water line broke a valve. I just replaced a bad faucet in the kitchen. My sewer line sprung a leak last month. The freshwater line is leaking this month. I've got spare plumbing parts lying all over the house, just trying to keep up with it all.
So I'm into target shooting. Hey, geeks with guns, and all that... Ammo is expensive. Reloading cuts my costs in half. I've got top of the line ammo reloading gear. Liters of black powder. Hell, I've got boxes of fulminate based primers. (They come in lots of 1000 units.)
After the Oklahoma City Bombing back in '95, I began to doubt our various news sources' accuracy/truthfulness. They didn't seem to be sticking too closely to the facts. So I bought some books, old army manuals really, on how to blow shit up. Improvised explosives, and how to use them. Sifted through the news reports for facts that were there. Ignored the obvious rants. And drew my own conclusions.
(FYI: I concluded the second seismic disturbance occurred from lateral displacement of a supporting column in the structure. When it broke, the energy released would have been like a second bomb going off. Neatly accounting for the asymmetrical damage. Thank god Timothy McVeigh was a such an incompetent bomber. Oh, and the feds were almost certainly responsible for burning those Davidians alive. The wind patterns. The holes punched by their tear-gas tank created a chimney effect. The pattern to the holes appears deliberate.)
I've been a long-time critic of airport security. It's just nuts. (I can't take a pair of nail clippers on. What's the rational there? If you don't let me hijack the plane, I'll trim my toenails? Or forcing women to drink their own breast milk?)
On the other hand, even with all the extra post-911 security, its still damn trivial to slip guns/knives/bombs through. Obvious security lapses that just aren't being patched.
I'd like to get them to change. Preferably without getting myself arrested in the process...
I'm just doomed, aren't I? But imagine if they raided Sam Barros' place!
P.S. As long as we're playing gestapo here, I hope you won't be put out about coming down to the station for some hard questioning, not to mention paying for a lawyer, for conspiracy to rape that girl out in Timbuktu. After all, you've got the equipment! We need to investigate...
...Is this really anonymous? If you don't hear back from me, its not...
time to turn off Art Bell for a while....
coe back to earth EG
If Ashcroft gets wind of the toxic dust and nasty icky stuff that lives in everyday keyboards, we could all be in a world of hurt!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The dark secret is that right now, a smart person could end all life on this planet with some broth, agar, a blender and an electric drill. This fellow had a lot more that that on hand.
His goal was to draw attention to the dangers of commercial genetic modification. He hasn't accomplished that because most of you sheep don't seem to understand that his message was this: GM is dangerous precisely because of its unpredictability. Life adapts, evolves, and mutates. Genes are transferred horizontally and vertically as well.
An unexplained death in an otherwise healthy 40-something woman is strange as hell. When she dies in the vicinity of a PCR machine, a centrifuge and a pile of bacterial cultures and the coroner can't assign a precise cause of death, this is a major cause for concern.
Get this, and get it good: when you start messing with gene sequences (and yes, he WAS doing that) and replicating organisms, ANYTHING can happen, and it cannot necessarily be easily categorized or explained.
It may already be too late, but this should be a wake-up call to freeze all GM experimentation except in Level IV labs.
One way or another, this is probably the index case. Wait. You'll see.
Unless you really want your neighbors growing bacteria cultures in their homes. 999 out of 1000 will be harmless, and then one will escape, sicken a hundred people and kill an eldery woman with weak immune system. That would be some practice of art, huh?
(b) ADDITIONAL OFFENSE- Whoever knowingly possesses any biological agent, toxin, or delivery system of a type or in a quantity that, under the circumstances, is not reasonably justified by a prophylactic, protective, bona fide research, or other peaceful purpose , shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
====
It has been demonstrated that art can be a peaceful act of protest. Clearly this professor is not in violation of the law. He'll get off quite easily.
Homestarrunner.net -- It's Dot Com!
A quote from the Wired article:
One of the ensemble's e-books advocates releasing mutant organisms into the environment to disrupt the work of biotech firms. Another proposes secretly releasing mutated flies into restaurants.
They are advocating outright sabotage and scaring people by secretly releasing 'mutant flies' (which could be just as dangerous as any GMO produced by a biotech company according to themselves) into restaurants! - How is this different from blowing up these biotech retsaurants or biotech companies with explosives?
Art may be art but this is much more than that. Their motives are clearly political and their advocated methods firmly planted in the realm of terrorism.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
I live in Buffalo, and our local NPR affiliate (WBFO WBFO has been covering this story quite well. (Unfortunately, I can't find any link to their coverage through the site, but then the coverage mostly comes with daily news reports as part of the Morning Edition feed). The last report I heard was that none of the stuff found in his house was found to be harmful. Also, no charges have been filed against him. I am surprised to hear that the FBI is continuing to investigate. I had thought that we had heard the last of it.
I think the important thing to realize is that in our post-9/11 world, if you do something involving radical viewpoints AND dangerous/hazardous materials, you can expect to undergo a little more scrutiny than you otherwise might think is fair. The fact is, law enforcement is completely in the dark, and thus they completely overreact to everything, on the theory that false positives are not as bad as one false negative.
I hope that if Kurtz was simply creating harmless art, as his colleagues claim, then he will eventually be exonerated. But frankly, some of the things mentioned in the article (e.g., releasing mutated flies in a "battle against the biotech industry") smack of bioterrorism. If Kurtz was planning something similar, then he can hardly call his work art, and he shouldn't be surprised to be under investigation.
I don't know if this is -1 Troll, or -1 Complete Moron. In any event, it's FUD.
I mean, if some people are refusing all the "good" stuff that GM bring us, then so be it. This is all about choice. By avoiding flagging product as "used with GM food" then you are effectively REMOVING this choice and REMOVING THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE TO CHOOSE !!!!
Think of this : as a vegetarian you have a reasonable expectation to know if something is cooked with MEAT FAT. So why anti-GM people should not have a reasonable expectation to know what is build with GM food, directly or indirectly (after the GM food has been prepared and changed) ???
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
> Under the Patriot Act (and don't kid yourself into thinking parts of it
> are not classified) if I tried that now I personally would be charged
> with obstruction of justice.
I call bullshit. There are no 'secret' sections of the PATRIOT act. We can;t be expected to obey laws we can't possibly know anything about. I work in a public library and went through all this tinfoil hat stuff already when all the Nadorites went into a frenzy. (Think I'm being extreme? Well I was AT the Texas Library Assoc Convention a few months ago and watched Mr. Nader get more standing ovations than Kerry will likely get at the Democratic Convention next month.)
> I am literally not allowed to request a warrant if the Patriot Act is
> brought up.
Wrong. Our orders are that if a Fed asks for ANYTHING we respond that we aren't authorized to do ANYTHING and to pick up the phone for our boss. She will get in touch with the city attorney (our legal representation of record) and they will handle it from there. But while that happens we should begin collecting the information, but stall on any turnover until we hear from her.
And yes they do nead a warrant to actually take anything, but it is generally considered that a Fed on site will have little problem with that detail and to assume they either already have one or soon will so go ahead and start collecting the requested info. No sense being a total asshole about it.
> Nor am I allowed to tell anyone that the request happened.
Yes, this part IS true. Not sure how I personally come down on this one, but it does make a certain sense. But the more I ponder it the potential for misuse is just fscking huge so I guess I'd prefer to see that section of PATRIOT sunset.
Democrat delenda est
FINALLY!
/.'s general worthlessness and not even bother pointing out the same thing, but you've drawn me back out into the /world. Finally, some intelligence displayed around here. Why, why can't they all be like you?
The Bloodmoon has come back... (Dramatic Pause Here, as we stare out into the gazes of the thousands in attendance and the millions at home in front of their computers, and for a brief moment, we crack a smile as they hinge on our aforementioned Dramatic Pause)
To Slashot!
This is what we were missing before. I don't know where they all went, but it's good to see them returning. This is one of the few intelligent posts I've read recently.
I applaud you. You're actually able to read between the fucked up lines getting drawn in the United States right now. This is a skill virtually all other people seem to lack. Most just see the face value of the story (Ashcroft is a dumb ass and thinks art might be used for terror!) and assume we have morons running the country. You, my friend, see the bigger picture, that we have some seriously fucked up and manipulative people running the show.
I was going to continue my ongoing protest of
I cannot even think of the number of laws this administration has passed that have duel political uses like the example here. But look all up and down the board and you'll see them. Everything from the DMCA to CAPPS to the PATRIOT Act can be used in a way to curtail political descent.
Just a thought, tying back to my most recent journal entry. The last president I can think of (and it's 0400 here, so I'm really not thinking to clearly, but still) that suspended Habeas Corpus (See: Guantanamo Bay) was Lincoln, and that was in the middle of the Civil War. Or maybe I should start referring to it as Civil War 1...
So, in short, to you, Maljin, thank you. To the rest of you sheeple, wake the fuck up, and do it before it is to late.
Request: ECM unit, 1000 km fullerene cable, 1 tactical nuclear weapon. Reason: Birthday party for foreign dignitary.
... in this country.
"It takes a lot more than a simple little gene to make something pathogenic. But you could teach these skills to a high-school student, and you could probably teach them to an artist."
Thank you for providing us with your opinion on the matter of homeland security. Your name will be added to a list, and you will be contacted by your nearest federal law enforcement office as soon as more information becomes available [read: " when we have enough evidence to make you dissapear"].
Hey, you have to EARN a foil hat!
JUST SO YOU KNOW: I'M JOKING.... I DON'T REALLY WANT THE FOLLOWING TO HAPPEN....
;-)
Do you know what this means?! Ban chemistry and biology from our schools! Ban physics and math! Ban art! Leave only English and American History. There's no harm in speaking English, and American History can instill patriotism in young Americans!
Oh, yeah: ban PE too; we don't want strong terrorists!
Mod up please.
;)
;) - oppression only works if all people have the *impression* that public dissent is considered insane from a "majority" and may even be outright dangerous.
Try posting your comment not anon and I'd have added you to my friends list for this classic civil liberty embracing post. Thank you anyway.
If you are afraid of what you say and hide your name deliberately "then the _censors_ will have already won"
If you can't criticize "the ruling party" without fearing crippling ridicule from others (even if it's the "Freepers" et al.) or incarceration by the authorities, it's only a matter of time before real dictatorship is established. Just because it shows no swastika it can be fascism anyway.
And in commemoration of "D-Day" tomorrow, I need to say as a German: thank you for the liberation *but* please make sure your nation does never transform into a fascism. The media cartels and its almost obvious manipulations are making me nervous and the military-industrial complex is already elected vice-president. Please, Americans, learn from German history on what NOT to do and when NOT to remain silent. If the totalitarian trend apparent in all branches of the US government continues I think it could soon be worse than we realize yet.
The state I live in had a catch all piece of legislation known as the "drugs misuse act", which gave "Patriot" style powers. No warrents, prisoners could be held for some time without charge etc - it was abused a great deal by members of the local police force until it was repealed, such a thing will be abused by some even if it is set up with the best intentions. Removing the checks and balances unleases all kinds of actions. Alarm bells should have run the second it was called the "patriot" act - vote against something with a name like that and you'll look bad, no matter what the contents of the bill are, since you would obviously not be a patriot.
As for the bioweapon shadow jumping, what really happened with the anthax? There's been a lot of sideshows and distractions since then.
Also, could someone in the USA fill me in on this: would the assistant professor be second in charge of criminal justice at the University of Maine (the meaning of the title in most parts of the world) or are things really like the movies where even high school science teachers get to call themselves professor?
Yea I agree, I was just really thinking of getting rid of ASScroft. That guy is really really bad. I don't think Bush is that bad but I really hate ASScroft.
I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!
Mike
Why do you equate CAE's mission, which seems to me to be encouraging the public to educate itself about GMO, with white supremacism? Education = racism? All this guy was doing was testing food to see if it had been modified by one or more of the most common methods. What is wrong with doing that (or advocating that others do it)?
Can I mod something +1 Scary if it's true but I wish it weren't?
point 1. The Constitution requirement applies when the U.S. initiates the war, not when someone else initiates war against us.
point 2. Congress has passed TWO resoultions which, while not labeled "delaration of war", contain all the elements of such. So it comes down to wether or nor the phrase "declaration of war" is magically required.
A guy who ignored his own agencies telling him there was going to be a big deal from Al Queda.
So gets us involved in Iraq, which had nothing to do with the attack, which has cost us half a trillion dollars and ruined our influence in the middle east as well as western europe.
Which he did by claiming WMD were in Iraq, but guess what, they weren't.
Oh, but the Vice-President's company Haliburton (no, he didn't sell all his stock), got a multi-billion no-bid contract to "help" the troops.
All the while giving tax breaks to rich people, which didn't help the economy.
All the while crushing our civil liberties and going after boobies on TV and radio to cover the fact that they're trying to allow media consolidation to occur.
Oh, and I mention the guy can produce a single sentence that makes sense unless it comes off a teleprompter.
Name one president worse in the last 100 years. Carter at least was honest.
Be honest. I'm a republican, lifelong (I've been voting for 30 years), never voted for anything but a republican, this will be the first time I don't. He's that bad. I mean... REALLY bad.
"Also one could argue that Saddams failure to honor the terms of the cease fire effectively re-instated the state of conflict that existed after he invaded Kuwait."
Oh please. You go to war when it suits a purpose. Its not about treaties, words, this or that.
What purpose did we serve going to war in Iraq? How did it help us?
This thing is nam-viet all over again. I was alive then, and I'm telling you its so the same that its scary.
At first I'm like, DAMN that dude has no life, I mean all he does is post to slashdot. So I was like dude, don't post to slashdot so much. But now I am like, SHIT this is the ultimate troll account, used by no less than four different people. Mr. Cluster(s), you got greedy in the last few days. You flew to close to the sun.
That's it. I'm going to report my local supermarkets for terrorism. I mean, anybody who stocks yogurt is just asking for trouble, you know?
This sig no verb.
When I read the summary, I thought of Scott Kurtz of PVP fame. Instinctively, instead of RTA, I went to his website and saw:
"Home again
Posted on Wednesday, June 2, 2004
We're back! KC was a blast. The wife and I had a great time....
I was like, wtf! When did his wife die? Yesterday?
Gotta at least open one link in the summary.
Er... he is innocent until proven guilty, that's why they're taking it to a jury. What is it about the whole court proccess that has people so confused?
The Patriot Act is confused. It has made non harmful activities criminal and subjects anyone who owns "biologic agents" to the whims of a jury trial and national infamy. The presumption of guilt inherent in the Patriot act makes a mockery of the presumption of innocence. There is potential for abuse beyond shutting up an artist, though that is bad enough.
By the letter of the Patriot Act, he IS guilty. He did have a lab with "biologic agents" removed from their natural setting. He can spend years in prison for that. He will have to spend years of his life fighting off the charges and his reputation has been irrevocably damaged. Yet it seems clear that his artwork was not a threat to anyone. The patriot act presumes guilt for innocent activities and forces people to prove that innocence.
The potential for abuse is huge. Once upon a time, you could found a company like HP in your garage. Today, the Patriot act stands in the way of anyone who would do the same with "biologic agents". The basic tools of research have been outlawed for an entire field. The same kinds of bogus arguments can be made about compilers and printed circuit board making equipment.
The Patriot Act is a truly unAmerican set of laws that will continue to harm us all.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They have already won. They can come in, at the drop of a hat, any hat, and confiscate all my hardware and software. Even the backups.
Can you imagine a plumber losing all his tools? Or an electrician? My tools are on my computers. My contacts. My contracts. All work in progress. Everything.
All gone, in a heartbeat. On some powermonger's whim. No defense available. I'm unemployed. I'm unemployable. Blacklisted. I lose my life savings. My house. If I'm damn lucky, I won't be jailed, trying to come up with money for an attorney.
And what becomes of my wife? My kids?
Yeah. They've won. I've lost. I'm not trying to save the world. I'm just trying to survive.
In some areas of the good o'l U.S.of.A., the government can force the local population to be inoculated against disease.
Adult, functioning, sane, supposedly "free" individuals.
Against the desires of the individual.
Against the recommendations of the individual's doctors.
Knowing full well that said inoculation will kill the individual.
It is suspected as being a mechanism for removing chronically ill people from the health care system.
You can do that in some places. My state has concealed-carry. Most of the population has guns. Good luck trying it here.
However, Grand Juries are often presented with 'cases' when an ambitious prosecutor or a federal agency has an agenda.
Info here
(I know, I know, obviously just another commie, pinco, left-wing liberal FUD site.)
In another article
Article here
Oh, thats just Opinion?
How about this
Case eventially dismissed/dropped: Info Here
More info on Grand Jury abuse Here
Perhaps it has something to do with this particular company having a long unpleasant history of attempting to cover up and deny the illness and death some of their products have caused.
"Questionable circumstances" = heart failure, according to the police.
And this is hardly comparable to having a small nuclear reactor; they had some basic lab equipment that you can find in any college freshman genetics class. This is more comparable to the feds confiscating your son's petri dishes that he was using for his science fair project.
The fact that they spout "anti-whatever propaganda" should have absolutely nothing to do with anything.
Only the prosecutor gets to ask questions? Yipes! That doesn't sound fair! I thought the USA was supposed to be a democratic Country? Seriously, why have them? How often do you have them? Are the jurors for Grand Juries drawn from the same pool as jurors for regular trials? Is the prosecutor on his own, or does a judge preside?
There is a dead woman who died of undiscerned causes; and a grand jury will decide. Surely that is a bit different from the Hatfill case.
B I
Jerry Pournelle
see http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/view312.html#F
We aren't talking about fiddling with genes and bacteria, we're talking about THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE TO IT. We don't like Monsanto for their patents and their lawsuits against farmers or their "terminator" seeds, but if their labs were raided by and their employees arrested by counter-terrorist teams, we would object too.
Hypocracy is only when you're talking about the SAME ISSUE, moron. By (wrongly) rushing to call Slashdot a bunch of hypocrites, you are no better than what you are accusing them of being.
I've read about fifty comments here, and no one has expressed any sympathy for the guy who has just lost his wife. She was an artist herself, and they worked together on their projects. I am going to assume he loved her.
Put yourself in his shoes. You lose your wife and you get your life turned upside down, at the same time, by the Justice department?
This reminds me of that Oregon lawyer. He had defended someone suspected of terrorist ties. He had converted to Islam. The FBI said there was a match between him and a fingerprint found at the Madrid bombing. But they were wildly wrong. They were told they were wrong.
What is the point of patting yourself on the back for having a "free Country" if you let paranoia around security make you act like a Police State?'Apparently John Ashcroft can't tell a weapons lab from an art installation. ' What else would one expect from John Ashcroft: He can't tell art ( bare breasted statue of Justice ) from porn -- put a blue blanket over her!.
This morning, I happened to take a good look at the Classics building (Burton Hall) @ the University of Minnesota. Classic-style building, big Greek pillars, stone friezes, etc.
One of the friezes depicts various academic virtues -- Science, Architecture, Painting, Literature, etc. -- each with several people (and sometimes cherubs). Some of the people were scientists, architects etc., all men; accompanied by stately women wearing togas, in various states of revealing one or both breasts.
Now that's my kind of academia -- men sit around, surrounded by cool toys and looking important, while stately half-naked women admire them (admire the men, not the cool toys).
And I have to observe: Science gets the best chicks.
-kgj
-kgj
> In other words, why worry about a warrant at all? Just trust the feds,
> they're your friends. And they never lie.
Please. Did you even read the post? Or perhaps I just wasn't being clear enough. If a Fed is going to bother driving at least fifty miles to show up at our door, we figure that it is reasonable they will either have a warrent already or will be able to get one so fast as not to matter so we have decided that we won't be an asshole about it and go ahead and start data collection. But had you actually READ my post, you would know our policy is NOT to release without one. The reason for this is that I live in Louisiana and we have had a law on the books for decades requiring a warrant for the release of patron records from a public library.
We might be backwards ass country folk with a screwed up legal system based on French instead of English laws, but we do get a few things right down here in the swamps.
Democrat delenda est
> The obvious response is "well, duh, if they are secret you wouldn't
> know about them, would you?"
Well a Fed had better not be dumb enough to try that trick on us. Because I'd be asshat enough to reply something along the lines of:
"Well we developed our policy on PATRIOT based on the published law so if you have any addendums you can bring them up at the next scheduled meeting of the Beauregard Parish Library Board of Control and they can reevaluate our policy. This is a government instituition operating under the control of the Soverign State of Louisiana's chain of command and is not directly subject to Federal control. We are required to submit to warrants lawfully issued by a court of competent jurisdiction, but since you lack one of those and are now becoming irrational and disruptive I must insist that you leave this facility. Should you fail to do so I shall call the Sheriff's Office and ask for their assistance in removing you and authenticating your credentials."
The last bit is because the odds of a real FBI agent being dumb enough to try "well it is a secret law" crap is pretty low, but a CIA or NSA agent posing as FBI might, but certainly wouldn't want a Sheriff checking his fake papers.
Democrat delenda est
Except in certain African tribes. When I majored in anthropology, I learned about some cultures that believed every death was caused by witchcraft. It wasn't that they were ignorant of natural causes...my professor related one case in which an elevated hut collapsed on a person sitting under it. Witchcraft! He pointed out that everybody knew the supports were rotting...the Africans said "Sure, we know that, but that still doesn't explain why it collapsed while Joe was sitting under it." Then they went witchhunting.
Nice to know we're heading down the same road.
"The fact that they spout "anti-whatever propaganda" should have absolutely nothing to do with anything."
It has quite a lot to do with it. A person who is known to be an activist and has proposed ways of destroying GM crops is found with a dead wife and a basement full of lab cultures? Any combination of two isn't cause for alarm. But mix them all together and you have a problem.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
He was a pretty good guy... our class was in 'tactical media', where we'd put together public demonstrations against stuff, so he definitely was an activist type. But I had a lot of fun in his class and he gave me an A.
No, he broke the law by doing that.
No, the Patriot act outlaws labs not for "bona-fida" research. Let me quote the second paragraph of the linked code:
Whoever knowingly possesses any biological agent, toxin, or delivery system of a type or in a quantity that, under the circumstances, is not reasonably justified by a prophylactic, protective, bona fide research, or other peaceful purpose, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
And just like that, guilt is presumed. The good professor must now prove that his artwork was for a "reasonably justified" "peaceful purpose".
The same kinds of laws and language are applied to special nuclear materials. You can't own them, period. If you listen to what the prosecutors are saying, the same logic is guiding the above ban. While the careful licensing of nuclear materials may be justified, banning people from collecting and breeding common bacteria is absurd.
This case would never have gotten as far as it had without the massive ignorance and presumption of the Patriot Act. The man's displays have been deemed safe enough for public exhibition by experts. His wife's autopsy exonerated the artwork. Yet, here he is going to trial for running a lab based on a few snips of satirical literature published by a group he belongs to. Before the Patriot Act, this case would have been laughed out of court because there was nothing wrong with a collection of moldy petri dishes and there's no evidence of any other wrongdoing. The Patriot act forces the accused to prove their innocence as if NO ONE BUT A TERRORIST WOULD RUN A LAB.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
it is probabley all teh m$ faults right twit??!!
M$ would like to do the same for compilers and "unsigned" code. They would love to have more government support to stamp out any and all competition, especially free competition. They have come a long way towards having DRM inbeded in hardware and having trade secrets enforced by government under the DMCA. They will justify the next steps by the poor quality of their code and the damage malware does to their customers because of it. If owning a few petri dishes and ROM programmers can get you arrested and people don't question it, one day M$ may have it's way with basic software tools as well.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Ah. Good to have an expert.
You have probably heard this old aphorism: "Why is academic politics so vicious? Because the stakes are so low." Is it possible that a professor, or department, that normally had a policy of allowing members of the University community to sign up for open lab time would prohibit someone who might cost them research grants from Monsanto?
Or maybe Dr Kurtz didn't think his dignity was consistent with sharing a lab with undergrads?
E. coli can be fatal in a wound? I didn't know that. I thought that meat contaminated with e. coli was a problem because it could cause food poisoning -- nausea and diarhea. What does e. coli do to your mouth?
I've got some serious biotech going on in my fridge...