Hello . . . I was just responding with your gross overstatement (assuming you are the original AC):
Perl while a fine language and very powerful, is completely unreadable, unmaintainable and un-reusable
In a inverse situation I write Perl and C professionally and not Java but I don't go around making statements like you have above about environments or languages that I may not fully understand. My only comment is that to Frenchman French is perfectly readable while english looks like a grabled mess.
Were I work I currently maintain a Perl app with 14k lines of Perl that monitors the health and safety of an underwater vehicle. It is a "real" application; it is a "complex" application and joy to maintain in comparison to an other package I maintain that is written in C and is horrible designed and coded.
Remember you share the same shame (say that a few dozen times) that Taco does for posting something inflammatory and unfairly baised. But then again the original intent was probably to generate 900+ posts.
Perl is for system administration tasks, not full blown "Applications".
And on what basis do you make this sweeping statement. Back it up, and don't resort to the lame excuse "because its butt ugly". List your reasons and experience and then sign your post or go away.
Perl while a fine language and very powerful, is completely unreadable, unmaintainable and un-reusable. Java on the other hand is totally reuseable, maintainable, and readable, because it's not written by HACKS.
Your trolling right ?
completely unreadable - Sure any language is unreadable if you are not familar with the syntax and symbols. I try reading a stretch of Java and I find it difficult because I do not program with it day to day. Does that make it an ugly ? No I am just unfamilar with it.
Unmaintainable, Unreusable - Ever hear of CPAN. There is a fine example of maintained software and is perhaps the best practical example of software reuse in the entire industry.
Written by HACKS. Is that compliment or an insult ?
I believe Perl is more understandable and maintianable then Java because the verbosity of Java. For a given set of requirements a Perl app will contain at least 1/3 less LOC then an equivalent Java app.
Great example . . .
With command line completion that command would take all of about 5 secs in enter. Now if i was on a windows machine it wound take that long just to find Windows Explorer.
I the hopes of saving bandwith and slashdot load lets preempt the inevitable exchange that is to follow:
Accusation: Perl is butt ugly
Response: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and btw you are butt ugly.
Accusation: Perl encourages to poor programming style.
Response: Guns dont't kill people; People kill people.
Accusation: Perl is slow.
Response: Perl is Fast.
Accusation: Perl object oriented interface is an afterthought and incomplete.
Response: Ya but it has the essentials and it is nice to use the design methodology that best fits the problem at hand.
I happen to work at the Navy too - in fact NAVSEA in their infinite wisdom required us to go exchange for compatibility reasons.
"heck of a lot of hardware" no kidding . . . We went form a single Sun box for e-mail and News to friggen wall of NT machines. In fact they recently installed exchange at a small detachement with serveral hundred uses and it required 2 $20K servers to handle the load.
Group ware. bla. The future to Groupware is http not some propietary protocol/solution. Our group used a Linux box together with Apache and Perl to provide a wide range of groupware functions that far surpass what Exchange provides. Things like Corporate memo document logs, Drawing repository, Corporate photo album, Online Operational logs, Resource schedulers, Phone books, System FAQs, etc.
Hey, perhaps you remember the I Love You virus and the copy cats after that. What did that cost . . .
Also, what about the others who like Macs, or Unix ?
Hey do you remember "I love U" was that a lot of fun.
100% recycled BS. I am the only one who tires of this complant. Perl is not hard ot maintain, bad programming and design structure is hard to maintain. I have been involved in 25K LOC projects with an established coding standard and naming convention and variable scoping rules. Ease of Maintainance exceeded any C project I have ever worked with and a 25K LOC Perl project is probably worth 35k of C or C++ code for equivalent functionality.
Hey, several the folks in that list are not technicians, I therefore propose the David Boies receive placement due to his major influence on the MS trial and now the pivotal Napster trial.
I also vote for Larry. He synthesized the "Unix way of doing things" and added a number of optimized commonly required library functions and wrapped it in package called Perl. Almost all early internet dynamic content was driven by Perl code. And Perl is still relevant to today and used by many large and small internet installations either for serving dynamic content or in the backend for content and source maintenance and prototyping.
Yes, now there are other options Python, php, asp, Java Servlets, etc. but Perl was the first and is still one of the best ways to develop applications for the web.
It would be nice to remove an application you simply blow the directory away. This would sorta make complicated install programs and package managers obsolete.
Scrap the expensive and vendor lock stuff. Use FreeBSD (or Linux) use Perl, use DBI and any Database you want. Forget VB, which you will be left stranded and locked into an obsolete path when MS starts pushing C#. Open Source solutions will have significantly more longevity than most closed solutions and whatever closed propriety closed solution you choose you will find yourself in a continous upgrade for $$$ cycle. Oh yes, and Perl is Rapid Development compared to even VB.
Just as another testimony, my primary client is a large regional bank and over the last 2 years I have replaced most of their Lotus Notes intranet software with Perl CGI/Apache/OpenLDAP. They and we have a significant investment in Perl. A joke about Perl 6 would not be a joke and I doubt it very serously.
Now if your concerns are aestetic and are bothered by the overuse of symbols I doubt there will be any change in Perl 6 that will convince you.
For example the data type differentiators ($,%,@) are kinda central to the language. And like almost any unfamiliar language dialect, it looks odd at first glance. Symbols are symbols and all languages are built from symbols. Take an uninitiate and give them some C++ code, Perl code, Pascal Code and and maybe some Greek and ask them which is more intuitive and aestetic - to them it would all look like line noise.
You could look at this way Python enforces indention style with mandatory whitespaces. Perl enforces variable nameing style with a built in variable naming convention ( $ -> scalar data, @ -> arrays, % -> hashes).
BTW, your original complaint about Perl's loose typing is also true with Python. For alot of programming chores its a feature not a deficiency.
As IE becomes more dominate and web developers begin to more and more develop for IE only (especially for intranets where one can dictate the use of a browsers), MS will undoubtable tie the enhanced features to IIS. I think when that happens Apache market share will drop like a rock. This is the scenerio that concerns me and it is the obvious busness plan.
But what to do about it ? But MS stock ? Cheer Mozilla ?
Slashdot Mirror
Where do you want to crash today.
Hello . . . I was just responding with your gross overstatement (assuming you are the original AC):
Perl while a fine language and very powerful, is completely unreadable, unmaintainable and un-reusable
In a inverse situation I write Perl and C professionally and not Java but I don't go around making statements like you have above about environments or languages that I may not fully understand. My only comment is that to Frenchman French is perfectly readable while english looks like a grabled mess.
Were I work I currently maintain a Perl app with 14k lines of Perl that monitors the health and safety of an underwater vehicle. It is a "real" application; it is a "complex" application and joy to maintain in comparison to an other package I maintain that is written in C and is horrible designed and coded.
Remember you share the same shame (say that a few dozen times) that Taco does for posting something inflammatory and unfairly baised. But then again the original intent was probably to generate 900+ posts.
Perl is for system administration tasks, not full blown "Applications".
And on what basis do you make this sweeping statement. Back it up, and don't resort to the lame excuse "because its butt ugly". List your reasons and experience and then sign your post or go away.
Perl while a fine language and very powerful, is completely unreadable, unmaintainable and un-reusable. Java on the other hand is totally reuseable, maintainable, and readable, because it's not written by HACKS.
Your trolling right ?
completely unreadable - Sure any language is unreadable if you are not familar with the syntax and symbols. I try reading a stretch of Java and I find it difficult because I do not program with it day to day. Does that make it an ugly ? No I am just unfamilar with it.
Unmaintainable, Unreusable - Ever hear of CPAN. There is a fine example of maintained software and is perhaps the best practical example of software reuse in the entire industry.
Written by HACKS. Is that compliment or an insult ?
I believe Perl is more understandable and maintianable then Java because the verbosity of Java. For a given set of requirements a Perl app will contain at least 1/3 less LOC then an equivalent Java app.
Great example . . . With command line completion that command would take all of about 5 secs in enter. Now if i was on a windows machine it wound take that long just to find Windows Explorer.
I the hopes of saving bandwith and slashdot load lets preempt the inevitable exchange that is to follow:
Accusation: Perl is butt ugly
Response: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and btw you are butt ugly.
Accusation: Perl encourages to poor programming style.
Response: Guns dont't kill people; People kill people.
Accusation: Perl is slow.
Response: Perl is Fast.
Accusation: Perl object oriented interface is an afterthought and incomplete.
Response: Ya but it has the essentials and it is nice to use the design methodology that best fits the problem at hand.
Did i miss any ?
Could someone be so kind to explain what is an iCal capable client ?
Were talking about a Sparc 10 with no service agreement. Original cost ~12k.
I happen to work at the Navy too - in fact NAVSEA in their infinite wisdom required us to go exchange for compatibility reasons.
"heck of a lot of hardware" no kidding . . . We went form a single Sun box for e-mail and News to friggen wall of NT machines. In fact they recently installed exchange at a small detachement with serveral hundred uses and it required 2 $20K servers to handle the load.
Group ware. bla. The future to Groupware is http not some propietary protocol/solution. Our group used a Linux box together with Apache and Perl to provide a wide range of groupware functions that far surpass what Exchange provides. Things like Corporate memo document logs, Drawing repository, Corporate photo album, Online Operational logs, Resource schedulers, Phone books, System FAQs, etc.
Hey, perhaps you remember the I Love You virus and the copy cats after that. What did that cost . . .
Also, what about the others who like Macs, or Unix ?
Hey do you remember "I love U" was that a lot of fun.
Number 2 is reason enough.! At work every month or 2 I end up recieving several hundred virus generated e-mails from our 1000+ address book.
be part of the purchase price.
"and it is very difficult to maintain"
100% recycled BS. I am the only one who tires of this complant. Perl is not hard ot maintain, bad programming and design structure is hard to maintain. I have been involved in 25K LOC projects with an established coding standard and naming convention and variable scoping rules. Ease of Maintainance exceeded any C project I have ever worked with and a 25K LOC Perl project is probably worth 35k of C or C++ code for equivalent functionality.
Hey, several the folks in that list are not technicians, I therefore propose the David Boies receive placement due to his major influence on the MS trial and now the pivotal Napster trial.
I also vote for Larry. He synthesized the "Unix way of doing things" and added a number of optimized commonly required library functions and wrapped it in package called Perl. Almost all early internet dynamic content was driven by Perl code. And Perl is still relevant to today and used by many large and small internet installations either for serving dynamic content or in the backend for content and source maintenance and prototyping.
Yes, now there are other options Python, php, asp, Java Servlets, etc. but Perl was the first and is still one of the best ways to develop applications for the web.
I would need that too.
Antimony also expands upon freezing. Which i think is why it was originally used for making typeset.
It would be nice to remove an application you simply blow the directory away. This would sorta make complicated install programs and package managers obsolete.
There is power in simplicity.
News for Nerds - my $#@!
Lets start a petition to keep SlashDot politics free. Granted such discussions generate lots of heat and lots of Banner Ad exposures.
Scrap the expensive and vendor lock stuff. Use FreeBSD (or Linux) use Perl, use DBI and any Database you want. Forget VB, which you will be left stranded and locked into an obsolete path when MS starts pushing C#. Open Source solutions will have significantly more longevity than most closed solutions and whatever closed propriety closed solution you choose you will find yourself in a continous upgrade for $$$ cycle. Oh yes, and Perl is Rapid Development compared to even VB.
Just as another testimony, my primary client is a large regional bank and over the last 2 years I have replaced most of their Lotus Notes intranet software with Perl CGI/Apache/OpenLDAP. They and we have a significant investment in Perl. A joke about Perl 6 would not be a joke and I doubt it very serously.
/. over reaction.
This looks like another
O.K. a Perl anti-zealot
Now if your concerns are aestetic and are bothered by the overuse of symbols I doubt there will be any change in Perl 6 that will convince you.
For example the data type differentiators ($,%,@) are kinda central to the language. And like almost any unfamiliar language dialect, it looks odd at first glance. Symbols are symbols and all languages are built from symbols. Take an uninitiate and give them some C++ code, Perl code, Pascal Code and and maybe some Greek and ask them which is more intuitive and aestetic - to them it would all look like line noise.
You could look at this way Python enforces indention style with mandatory whitespaces. Perl enforces variable nameing style with a built in variable naming convention ( $ -> scalar data, @ -> arrays, % -> hashes).
BTW, your original complaint about Perl's loose typing is also true with Python. For alot of programming chores its a feature not a deficiency.
"Perl is never going to become a strongly-typed language"
Yikes I hope not! However, Python is not strongly-typed either.
Keep in mind that the parent post to this discussion is the obligatory First-Python-Zealot-Post-in-a-Perl-Thread post and is designed to create heat.
As IE becomes more dominate and web developers begin to more and more develop for IE only (especially for intranets where one can dictate the use of a browsers), MS will undoubtable tie the enhanced features to IIS. I think when that happens Apache market share will drop like a rock. This is the scenerio that concerns me and it is the obvious busness plan.
But what to do about it ? But MS stock ? Cheer Mozilla ?
I wish I had not already commented on this thread or I would moderate your post up.
"make" is one util that needs replacing. The use of \t as deliminator has cost countless hours of troubleshooting.