You may be suprised at what you get. Linux and Open Source can save a ton of money and hassle long term, especially when implemented from scratch, but you have to know what you're doing. If you don't know or aren't sure, get help. A company of 100 employees can easily justify having two admins, especially when combined with the savings Linux and OSS are capable of.
Y'know, I keep seeing this argument on Slashdot, and it's always with the caveat "almost as good" or "the savings that Linux provides".
I've yet to see somebody come up with a real cost savings - a TCO study - for a small business using a "cobbled together" Linux/OSS solution compared to a Windows-centric solution.
Firstly: The admins. Linux admins aren't plentiful. They might appear so here, but just because you've installed Gentoo, you're not a real admin. Your users and business owners will dictate to YOU how things will be. You can have influence, and you may steer things, but being a zealot doesn't pay the bills.
Let's say they hire you, and you implement OpenLDAP, perhaps Linux for Terminal Services on the desktops (you smart guy, you), and a snazzy Windows-like distro for the execs and upper dudes in your 100-seat organization. You've got the desktops all set up great, etc., and new machines go on the network with no problem.
Now, the company is acquiring another firm - and they use (Oh Noes!) Windows! (oops, sorry - M$ Windoze - did I do it right?) They've got a KillerApp(TM) that your suits decide they Must Have and Use Daily as it will Multiply Productivity!
So you test. Oops, no OSS equivalent. Damn. Ooops, doesn't work in Crossover Office. Or Wine. Damn again. The company has no plans for an OSS release. Damn again. So... you can install a couple Windows machines to satisfy the execs, right? Ooops, then they push it company-wide. Oh, sorry boss - you've gotta pony up for 100 seats of Windows XP Professional so we can run this app.
Second scenario: After this horrible mess, you decide to leave for purer, greener OSS pastures. what does the company do? Did you document all your work? Does *anybody* know what you've done? After all, you can't just 'pick up' Linux - it's not easy, like dumb old Windows! So how does the company hire to replace your knowledge? Oh, they can't? You're indespensible now?
These thoughts are what percolate through the minds of business owners. They're not uninformed about Linux. They've heard all the zealotry and pitfalls, and the risk to their business is NOT worth it. The cost of upkeep, finding workarounds to compatibility with their partners, vendors and customers, and the inability to just 'buy a program' is the hamstring for mainstream business adoption.
Good call on lifted bumpers. Yes, many times it makes things much worse for the impact recipient.
Thanks for the info on the Impreza, I'll check it out. But did you mean 3' (feet) or inches?:) I ask because snow around here is measured in feet after big storms.
Are you kidding me? Have you driven a high-profile Suburban or pickup in high crosswinds? If you come from a car to a tall vehicle, it can be unnerving at first.
Seriously, that line of thinking is straight market-speak. If 12" of ground clearance on your Jeep compared to 5" on your Accord saves your life, you waited too long. Plus, I imagine 10% of the people who own SUVs have ever driven them off road, or would have any idea what the "4L" selection on their "gearshifty thingy" is for.
For the record, I drive an older '95 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 - I live in an area that gets a lot of snow, and my longish gravel driveway regularly sees 2-3' of snow after a storm. I then have to drive 25 miles of snow-packed roads to work. I drive mine off-road (rocky paths, creek beds, hunting trails) pretty regularly.
Yes, I'm looking at moving closer to the city I work in. Yes, I wish my Jeep got better than 17mpg average. However, an Accord or a Cavalier won't make it in the snow around here. The cost of having two vehicles for my use - even if one got much better mileage - is pretty much negated by the added expense of insuring and titling said vehicle. I can accept and believe a lot of 'reasons' for an SUV, but please don't justify an SUV as 'insurance' for a disaster.
Parent said: "In your dream. Skype doesn't work on huge amount of platforms. Some of them quite popular like Linux/ppc. Skype is about money and they provide clients only for these platforms which can gain them profit. Nothing more."
So explain how all this technology makes for a better educational experience?
Without a solid grounding in the basics of education, application of any other method of teaching becomes pointless.
You don't *need* the computers to be a lawyer. Sure, it makes things much easier - like research, word processing, etc., but how can you use those skills if you don't understand the base process behind them?
Too many kids these days only know how to click on the button and recite the answers they've been given. They can't think critically, they can't think around corners, etc.
As a country, the United States is producing more and more ill-educated brats. We worry about 'computer skills' more than writing and speaking properly, history, physical fitness, and the classic components of education. I agree that computers and technology have a PLACE in today's curriculum, but everyone is so starry-eyed about it that we're skipping the real teaching.
I also would advocate longer class blocks - 3 hours in a certain subject per day. Alternate so each course receives equal time, but more time in a subject allows a teacher to create more engaging lessons.
You're avoiding answering my points by pointing out vague faults that you can't pin down. You're the worst type of zealot - "Blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you, I'm a user!"
*Sigh*
Comments like this are purely FUD on the part of the Linux/OSS crowd. Over 90% of the time, "broken windows" is due to faulty drivers or some obscure piece of hardware that was poorly supported to begin with.
Windows 2000 and XP have all but eliminated Windows well-known instability. I dual-boot Windows XP Professional and Fedora Core 4 on my primary machine and either of them will stay up for months at a time - basically, until I need something from the other side of the box (read: Windows for games, Photoshop; Linux for web, email, dev, most other stuff).
It was fun to pick on "Windoze95" for it's instability (and God how I hated Windows ME) but Win2K and XP are very stable, very solid platforms.
Maybe it's 'tyme' you looked at the root cause of your problem?
"No-one has any business carrying around 20 grand in cash."
So... I'd rather pay cash for a car, and not pay to get a money order for my own money? Or don't want to take out a loan? Or perhaps I don't like to use checking/debit cards?
WTF business is it of YOURS how anybody conducts their personal business?
Your comment about Orwell being 'just a fearmonger' is why the government has such unfettered power today. You and your ilk refuse to see the real corruption and problems inherent in today's government.
Pre-built, ready-to-run software that people want and use. Fuck all your endless variations on editors and mahjongg.
Let Bootsie buy Betty Crocker's recipes, and make it work.
Replace Photoshop with something that doesn't SO resemble its name (*cough*fucking Gimp*cough*).
Give users an easy way to buy a game/program and install it.
Mom, Joe Sixpack, and Bootsie NEVER want to see the command line. What if some new car company just decided that you'd use your left foot for the accelerator, and you'd use a motorcycle-style clutch "because studies show it's better"?
Christ. This site is becoming a blog for Linux cumguzzlers. Can't discuss shortcomings rationally.
Linux does some things WONDERFULLY. Windows does some things better. People like what they are USED to - don't fuck with it because "we say it's better!!1" - until people get that through their heads, desktop adoption will stagnate.
That list, while effective, is very restrictive.
Many companies use:
IM clients
VOIP Softphones
Vertical market apps with funky requirements
Proprietary plugins w/ funky requirements
Etc., etc....
This list will help, but may be hamstrung by specific requirements.
Sure, it might be the best thing for the country to prevent the hijacking of a plane like that - but the country and any victims in question are far away and poorly defined in our minds. The little girl with a razor blade to her throat standing in a pool of her fathers blood is right outside the door.
Sure, it's easy to present the 'horrific, blood-soaked image'. Now, how about this: what if, by downing the plane, you could prevent it hitting the office building where your spouse worked? Sure, you can't know beforehand... but again, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The pussy response we took on 9/11 only confirmed in the attackers' minds that we would do pretty much whatever was asked. A fucking box cutter? Bring it, motherfucker. Sure, you might get me in the throat, but holy shit - only one planeload of people had the testicular fortitude to realize "Hey, these pussies have knives. WTF am I doing cowering here?"
I'm not sure I'd want to be able to condem her to death to save the aircraft. I'm not sure I'd want someone with that level of detachment flying my plane.
Sorry, I *do*. It's that exact detachment that will help prevent hijackings. "We don't negotiate with 'terrorists'. Blow it up."
This is hard stuff - and no simple solution is going to solve it.
Err, no. It's only because you're letting the individuals play such a large role, that it becomes 'hard'. The US is the Society of Me; those who dislike us play upon that. We're afraid of dying, so we'll play along with the illusion that cooperation may get us out of the situation.
Sure, it's easy for me to *say* these things - but with all seriousness, in a life or death situation (and yes, I've been in more than one), if you can remember the bigger picture, you realize that YOUR little life won't impact the world in the grand scheme of things.
After 9/11/2001, all you heard from the politicos and the people were "we won't let them change our way of living! We'll keep on with everything as we did before!"
I ask you now, almost 4 years later, to look around and see how little is left of that sentiment. We've given up so much for the illusion of safety, while giving nearly unbridled power to our government.
The 9/11 planes were allegedly taken over with fucking BOX CUTTERS. Basically, someone determined enough to take down a plane, bomb a facility, etc., WILL DO SO. What we're not asking ourselves is "why are these people supposedly targeting us?"
Somewhere else in this thread...I think this would go a long way in making our flights more secure, without having to resort to privacy encroachment methods.
Sorry, but I'm not all for the little screener monkeys looking at my wife - even in shitty false color 3d - in the nude (I'm jealous, sorry). Nor do I want them looking at me (cause nobody wants to see that).
This does NOTHING to promote security, just like the RealID thing does NOTHING to prevent 'more terrorism'.
Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ. All the government does is whisper "terror" (Sorry, 'terra' as GWB says it), and the majority of this country cries in fear, "remembrance", and "Never Forget 9-11!" cries.
Statistically, four times as many people are murdered each year in this country. Where's your hue and cry for 'more security' in our schools, government buildings, etc. in regards to our own people?
If you're an American, the privilege of living in a free country is the chance that not everyone will live like you. I, for one, would rather give up human lives instead of the original spirit behind this country.
Yes, that includes mine or my family's. The greater good - the society that COULD be the US, or the potential we have if we get this damned government straightened out - is worth some agony, bloodshed, and revolt.
Why are you all so willing to just bend over and ignore this? US Foreign Policy and the general American attitude towards the rest of the world is the largest reason we're reviled by the rest of the world. They only tolerate us because we're the rich quarterback - we'll bring the money and the chicks to the party, but don't piss us off, or we'll punch you.
Meh. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be born and raised in this country, when the attitude displayed by 90% of the people I encounter is the one you've displayed -- willful ignorance, and undeserved national arrogance.
I did go back and re-read it. And I read it backwards, as you say.
I will say it loud here:
I am a tool for flaming Craig Ringer, since I agree with him, but apparently I can't fucking read and comprehend.
That said, on the described situation - yuck. That's definitely weird. You usually have to either transfer (the nice way) or seize (the not-nice way) the FSMO roles, unless you've gone past the 90-day tombstone border; then you're doing a Directory Services Restore mode and some lovely ADSI Edit action. (Bleah)
You're right about some things - you can easily muck shit up, like you say. MS makes it very easy to *install* Active Directory - do a DC Promo, and you're done! Oops, you borked it, and you've got 500+ clients on the domain? Uh oh... time for some UGLY regedits and ADSIEdits.
Building most of the features of AD would involve lots of custom hacking though - for example, to do software auto-installs on log-in.
Wrong. Blatant FUD, or pure ignorance.
Look up Group Policy, Intellimirror, and Published Applications under Active Directory. If I say you can have Microsoft Word, you'll get it on *any* domain computer you sit at. If it's not already installed, it will be installed the first time you run it. I can distribute service packs, etc., to different departments or computers using Group Policy. Shit, I can install the entire OS using Remote Installation Services with a PXE-capable computer, if you'd like.
but once it works it stays working, unlike AD;-)
Again, pure shit. If you plan and deploy it poorly, you'll have a mess. If you do it right, on proper hardware, it will run for years with no problems whatsoever.
Delegated authority of OUs, users with specific rights (you can change/reset passwords, but can't add/remove users; YOU can add printers, etc.).
The whole Linux crowd crows "RTFM!" unless it's about Microsoft. Jesus, take the time to understand your enemy before just running your mouth.
So, you're advocating a different OS, but you want RedHat to do all the heavy lifting so your favorite OS can incorporate them?
A five-year life cycle on Linux? I can understand from a stability and 'known quantity' standpoint, but with the features you're asking for - PPTPd that works w/ Win2K/XP/2003, OpenWall/SmoothWall/Astaro/IPCop blah blah blah to PIX interface, etc. - you're talking at cross purposes.
Why did this get modded insightful, again? Oh, yeah - the same moderators that hate "teh Micro$haft Borg" hate Red Hat, as well.
I think that's how Windows admins usually do it...
Beyond the Windows XP Home box you have at your house, in the real corporate world, Windows admins do a real job too. A properly-configured Active Directory, Group Policies, and well-planned system images will go MILES to help your Windows admin experience be easier on a day to day basis, so you can deal with the weird stuff that crops up.
I'm getting so sick of the zealotry on both sides - but the Linux/Unix side is so condescending. We're trying to learn Linux & Unix, and take some lessons, guys - but if you keep being dicks, we'll make sure to keep you out of our networks and off our desktops by telling the PHBs "ooh, dunno if I'd use an unsupported Open Source environment..." True or not, all I gotta do is create doubt in some minds.
But before you think I'm a complete prick -
Actually, I don't think either method is the way to support end users.
Hear, hear.
There are tools for each environment that help you to do your job. Just because you may or may not understand *how* the tools work, does not mean that "Windows guys just replace or reimage a PC when it's borked."
There are occasions when a rebuild/reimage is the most time-efficient way to get a user back up and running. If I've got time to dick with a machine, sure - then I understand what happened, so if my $vendorapp or OS borks up, I can fix it.
Same thing on Linux/Unix - after an apt-get (I use Debian Sarge, Fedora Core, and BeatrIX alongside Windows XP Professional, Windows 2000 Server, and Windows Server 2003), sometimes the box is so fucked that *in the interest of time*, it's simpler to rebuild.
Actually, it's the best tactic to take. If he comes off as paranoid and defensive about Linux, people may take notice of it.
When he classes them as just another competitor, the fervor and hype that some of the supporting crowd generates is seen as zealotry or just 'fighting the man'.
Slashdot Mirror
You may be suprised at what you get. Linux and Open Source can save a ton of money and hassle long term, especially when implemented from scratch, but you have to know what you're doing. If you don't know or aren't sure, get help. A company of 100 employees can easily justify having two admins, especially when combined with the savings Linux and OSS are capable of.
... you can install a couple Windows machines to satisfy the execs, right? Ooops, then they push it company-wide. Oh, sorry boss - you've gotta pony up for 100 seats of Windows XP Professional so we can run this app.
Y'know, I keep seeing this argument on Slashdot, and it's always with the caveat "almost as good" or "the savings that Linux provides".
I've yet to see somebody come up with a real cost savings - a TCO study - for a small business using a "cobbled together" Linux/OSS solution compared to a Windows-centric solution.
Firstly: The admins. Linux admins aren't plentiful. They might appear so here, but just because you've installed Gentoo, you're not a real admin. Your users and business owners will dictate to YOU how things will be. You can have influence, and you may steer things, but being a zealot doesn't pay the bills.
Let's say they hire you, and you implement OpenLDAP, perhaps Linux for Terminal Services on the desktops (you smart guy, you), and a snazzy Windows-like distro for the execs and upper dudes in your 100-seat organization. You've got the desktops all set up great, etc., and new machines go on the network with no problem.
Now, the company is acquiring another firm - and they use (Oh Noes!) Windows! (oops, sorry - M$ Windoze - did I do it right?) They've got a KillerApp(TM) that your suits decide they Must Have and Use Daily as it will Multiply Productivity!
So you test. Oops, no OSS equivalent. Damn. Ooops, doesn't work in Crossover Office. Or Wine. Damn again. The company has no plans for an OSS release. Damn again. So
Second scenario: After this horrible mess, you decide to leave for purer, greener OSS pastures. what does the company do? Did you document all your work? Does *anybody* know what you've done? After all, you can't just 'pick up' Linux - it's not easy, like dumb old Windows! So how does the company hire to replace your knowledge? Oh, they can't? You're indespensible now?
These thoughts are what percolate through the minds of business owners. They're not uninformed about Linux. They've heard all the zealotry and pitfalls, and the risk to their business is NOT worth it. The cost of upkeep, finding workarounds to compatibility with their partners, vendors and customers, and the inability to just 'buy a program' is the hamstring for mainstream business adoption.
Good call on lifted bumpers. Yes, many times it makes things much worse for the impact recipient. Thanks for the info on the Impreza, I'll check it out. But did you mean 3' (feet) or inches? :) I ask because snow around here is measured in feet after big storms.
Are you kidding me? Have you driven a high-profile Suburban or pickup in high crosswinds? If you come from a car to a tall vehicle, it can be unnerving at first.
Seriously, that line of thinking is straight market-speak. If 12" of ground clearance on your Jeep compared to 5" on your Accord saves your life, you waited too long. Plus, I imagine 10% of the people who own SUVs have ever driven them off road, or would have any idea what the "4L" selection on their "gearshifty thingy" is for.
For the record, I drive an older '95 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 - I live in an area that gets a lot of snow, and my longish gravel driveway regularly sees 2-3' of snow after a storm. I then have to drive 25 miles of snow-packed roads to work. I drive mine off-road (rocky paths, creek beds, hunting trails) pretty regularly.
Yes, I'm looking at moving closer to the city I work in. Yes, I wish my Jeep got better than 17mpg average. However, an Accord or a Cavalier won't make it in the snow around here. The cost of having two vehicles for my use - even if one got much better mileage - is pretty much negated by the added expense of insuring and titling said vehicle. I can accept and believe a lot of 'reasons' for an SUV, but please don't justify an SUV as 'insurance' for a disaster.
No.
Parent said: "In your dream. Skype doesn't work on huge amount of platforms. Some of them quite popular like Linux/ppc. Skype is about money and they provide clients only for these platforms which can gain them profit. Nothing more."
Emphasis mine. But my point stands.
Bzzt, sorry.
... ? Oh, no, you were just trolling.
Running Skype on Windows 2000, XP (Pro & Home), Fedora Core 3, Debian, Ubuntu, and Mac OS X.
Oh, sorry, no Amiga support yet.
But you were saying something
So explain how all this technology makes for a better educational experience?
Without a solid grounding in the basics of education, application of any other method of teaching becomes pointless.
You don't *need* the computers to be a lawyer. Sure, it makes things much easier - like research, word processing, etc., but how can you use those skills if you don't understand the base process behind them?
Too many kids these days only know how to click on the button and recite the answers they've been given. They can't think critically, they can't think around corners, etc.
As a country, the United States is producing more and more ill-educated brats. We worry about 'computer skills' more than writing and speaking properly, history, physical fitness, and the classic components of education. I agree that computers and technology have a PLACE in today's curriculum, but everyone is so starry-eyed about it that we're skipping the real teaching.
I also would advocate longer class blocks - 3 hours in a certain subject per day. Alternate so each course receives equal time, but more time in a subject allows a teacher to create more engaging lessons.
You're avoiding answering my points by pointing out vague faults that you can't pin down. You're the worst type of zealot - "Blah, blah, blah, I can't hear you, I'm a user!" *Sigh*
Comments like this are purely FUD on the part of the Linux/OSS crowd. Over 90% of the time, "broken windows" is due to faulty drivers or some obscure piece of hardware that was poorly supported to begin with.
Windows 2000 and XP have all but eliminated Windows well-known instability. I dual-boot Windows XP Professional and Fedora Core 4 on my primary machine and either of them will stay up for months at a time - basically, until I need something from the other side of the box (read: Windows for games, Photoshop; Linux for web, email, dev, most other stuff).
It was fun to pick on "Windoze95" for it's instability (and God how I hated Windows ME) but Win2K and XP are very stable, very solid platforms.
Maybe it's 'tyme' you looked at the root cause of your problem?
Ah, a true Notes user - use a real client to get your Domino mail... :)
Stupid Notes. I am SO glad I don't have to use it or admin it any longer.
Well said. If there was a "mandatory reading" on Slashdot, your quote would be part of it. Too bad moderation only goes to 5.
"No-one has any business carrying around 20 grand in cash."
... I'd rather pay cash for a car, and not pay to get a money order for my own money? Or don't want to take out a loan? Or perhaps I don't like to use checking/debit cards?
So
WTF business is it of YOURS how anybody conducts their personal business?
Your comment about Orwell being 'just a fearmonger' is why the government has such unfettered power today. You and your ilk refuse to see the real corruption and problems inherent in today's government.
Pre-built, ready-to-run software that people want and use. Fuck all your endless variations on editors and mahjongg.
Let Bootsie buy Betty Crocker's recipes, and make it work.
Replace Photoshop with something that doesn't SO resemble its name (*cough*fucking Gimp*cough*).
Give users an easy way to buy a game/program and install it.
Mom, Joe Sixpack, and Bootsie NEVER want to see the command line. What if some new car company just decided that you'd use your left foot for the accelerator, and you'd use a motorcycle-style clutch "because studies show it's better"?
Christ. This site is becoming a blog for Linux cumguzzlers. Can't discuss shortcomings rationally.
Linux does some things WONDERFULLY. Windows does some things better. People like what they are USED to - don't fuck with it because "we say it's better!!1" - until people get that through their heads, desktop adoption will stagnate.
That list, while effective, is very restrictive. Many companies use: IM clients VOIP Softphones Vertical market apps with funky requirements Proprietary plugins w/ funky requirements Etc., etc.... This list will help, but may be hamstrung by specific requirements.
Sure, it might be the best thing for the country to prevent the hijacking of a plane like that - but the country and any victims in question are far away and poorly defined in our minds. The little girl with a razor blade to her throat standing in a pool of her fathers blood is right outside the door.
... but again, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The pussy response we took on 9/11 only confirmed in the attackers' minds that we would do pretty much whatever was asked. A fucking box cutter? Bring it, motherfucker. Sure, you might get me in the throat, but holy shit - only one planeload of people had the testicular fortitude to realize "Hey, these pussies have knives. WTF am I doing cowering here?"
Sure, it's easy to present the 'horrific, blood-soaked image'. Now, how about this: what if, by downing the plane, you could prevent it hitting the office building where your spouse worked? Sure, you can't know beforehand
I'm not sure I'd want to be able to condem her to death to save the aircraft. I'm not sure I'd want someone with that level of detachment flying my plane.
Sorry, I *do*. It's that exact detachment that will help prevent hijackings. "We don't negotiate with 'terrorists'. Blow it up."
This is hard stuff - and no simple solution is going to solve it.
Err, no. It's only because you're letting the individuals play such a large role, that it becomes 'hard'. The US is the Society of Me; those who dislike us play upon that. We're afraid of dying, so we'll play along with the illusion that cooperation may get us out of the situation.
Sure, it's easy for me to *say* these things - but with all seriousness, in a life or death situation (and yes, I've been in more than one), if you can remember the bigger picture, you realize that YOUR little life won't impact the world in the grand scheme of things.
After 9/11/2001, all you heard from the politicos and the people were "we won't let them change our way of living! We'll keep on with everything as we did before!"
I ask you now, almost 4 years later, to look around and see how little is left of that sentiment. We've given up so much for the illusion of safety, while giving nearly unbridled power to our government.
The 9/11 planes were allegedly taken over with fucking BOX CUTTERS. Basically, someone determined enough to take down a plane, bomb a facility, etc., WILL DO SO. What we're not asking ourselves is "why are these people supposedly targeting us?"
...I think this would go a long way in making our flights more secure, without having to resort to privacy encroachment methods.
Somewhere else in this thread
Sorry, but I'm not all for the little screener monkeys looking at my wife - even in shitty false color 3d - in the nude (I'm jealous, sorry). Nor do I want them looking at me (cause nobody wants to see that).
This does NOTHING to promote security, just like the RealID thing does NOTHING to prevent 'more terrorism'.
Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ. All the government does is whisper "terror" (Sorry, 'terra' as GWB says it), and the majority of this country cries in fear, "remembrance", and "Never Forget 9-11!" cries.
Statistically, four times as many people are murdered each year in this country. Where's your hue and cry for 'more security' in our schools, government buildings, etc. in regards to our own people?
If you're an American, the privilege of living in a free country is the chance that not everyone will live like you. I, for one, would rather give up human lives instead of the original spirit behind this country.
Yes, that includes mine or my family's. The greater good - the society that COULD be the US, or the potential we have if we get this damned government straightened out - is worth some agony, bloodshed, and revolt.
Why are you all so willing to just bend over and ignore this? US Foreign Policy and the general American attitude towards the rest of the world is the largest reason we're reviled by the rest of the world. They only tolerate us because we're the rich quarterback - we'll bring the money and the chicks to the party, but don't piss us off, or we'll punch you.
Meh. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be born and raised in this country, when the attitude displayed by 90% of the people I encounter is the one you've displayed -- willful ignorance, and undeserved national arrogance.
And if you read my reply, I did apologize as I completely flipped his meaning.
I did go back and re-read it. And I read it backwards, as you say.
;0
I will say it loud here:
I am a tool for flaming Craig Ringer, since I agree with him, but apparently I can't fucking read and comprehend.
That said, on the described situation - yuck. That's definitely weird. You usually have to either transfer (the nice way) or seize (the not-nice way) the FSMO roles, unless you've gone past the 90-day tombstone border; then you're doing a Directory Services Restore mode and some lovely ADSI Edit action. (Bleah)
You're right about some things - you can easily muck shit up, like you say. MS makes it very easy to *install* Active Directory - do a DC Promo, and you're done! Oops, you borked it, and you've got 500+ clients on the domain? Uh oh... time for some UGLY regedits and ADSIEdits.
Thanks for catching me on my stupidity.
Building most of the features of AD would involve lots of custom hacking though - for example, to do software auto-installs on log-in.
;-)
Wrong. Blatant FUD, or pure ignorance.
Look up Group Policy, Intellimirror, and Published Applications under Active Directory. If I say you can have Microsoft Word, you'll get it on *any* domain computer you sit at. If it's not already installed, it will be installed the first time you run it. I can distribute service packs, etc., to different departments or computers using Group Policy. Shit, I can install the entire OS using Remote Installation Services with a PXE-capable computer, if you'd like.
but once it works it stays working, unlike AD
Again, pure shit. If you plan and deploy it poorly, you'll have a mess. If you do it right, on proper hardware, it will run for years with no problems whatsoever. Delegated authority of OUs, users with specific rights (you can change/reset passwords, but can't add/remove users; YOU can add printers, etc.). The whole Linux crowd crows "RTFM!" unless it's about Microsoft. Jesus, take the time to understand your enemy before just running your mouth.
So, you're advocating a different OS, but you want RedHat to do all the heavy lifting so your favorite OS can incorporate them?
A five-year life cycle on Linux? I can understand from a stability and 'known quantity' standpoint, but with the features you're asking for - PPTPd that works w/ Win2K/XP/2003, OpenWall/SmoothWall/Astaro/IPCop blah blah blah to PIX interface, etc. - you're talking at cross purposes.
Why did this get modded insightful, again? Oh, yeah - the same moderators that hate "teh Micro$haft Borg" hate Red Hat, as well.
I think that's how Windows admins usually do it...
Beyond the Windows XP Home box you have at your house, in the real corporate world, Windows admins do a real job too. A properly-configured Active Directory, Group Policies, and well-planned system images will go MILES to help your Windows admin experience be easier on a day to day basis, so you can deal with the weird stuff that crops up.
I'm getting so sick of the zealotry on both sides - but the Linux/Unix side is so condescending. We're trying to learn Linux & Unix, and take some lessons, guys - but if you keep being dicks, we'll make sure to keep you out of our networks and off our desktops by telling the PHBs "ooh, dunno if I'd use an unsupported Open Source environment..." True or not, all I gotta do is create doubt in some minds.
But before you think I'm a complete prick -
Actually, I don't think either method is the way to support end users.
Hear, hear.
There are tools for each environment that help you to do your job. Just because you may or may not understand *how* the tools work, does not mean that "Windows guys just replace or reimage a PC when it's borked."
There are occasions when a rebuild/reimage is the most time-efficient way to get a user back up and running. If I've got time to dick with a machine, sure - then I understand what happened, so if my $vendorapp or OS borks up, I can fix it.
Same thing on Linux/Unix - after an apt-get (I use Debian Sarge, Fedora Core, and BeatrIX alongside Windows XP Professional, Windows 2000 Server, and Windows Server 2003), sometimes the box is so fucked that *in the interest of time*, it's simpler to rebuild.
Sure, it's easier to say and read, but too many people will give you the blank gaze of "whafuck?"
And ... you're doing the same thing, albeit with a supposed technical claim.
Got proof? Not a flame, genuinely interested in your info.
Well, it's nice to see this has devolved into pointless name calling.
I'm glad your innate grasp of my lack of talent and the inability to see outside my realm help you feel superior.
I wish you well in your future, and I hope your team ends up with a new manager soon.
Actually, it's the best tactic to take. If he comes off as paranoid and defensive about Linux, people may take notice of it.
When he classes them as just another competitor, the fervor and hype that some of the supporting crowd generates is seen as zealotry or just 'fighting the man'.
Pull the space out of the link (thanks, Slashdot filter), and it will work.