Theo thinks his personal information is like currency. It is.
But... but... I thought information wanted to be free!?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously, a better metaphor might be "a kilogram of ore." A database of personal information is like a mineral deposit. It might be rich and worth mining, though it depends on what you are looking for. Only valuable in volume. Really though, information is not much like any material object, including currency. Which incidentally is why filesharing is really not much like theft. I agree with your general attitude, but I think it helps everyone if we draw a bright line between information and material goods.
Well OpenBSD only exists because deRaadt couldn't play nice...
I've already read Wayner, but stop and think what you've just said here. That's the ONLY reason that OpenBSD exists? You mean OpenBSD and OpenSSH (which are both part of the same project) exist for no other reason? Concern for security, "true hacker" coding skillz, ability to coordinate and organize the efforts of many people... these count for nothing? I will remind you that there have been other people who disagreed with *BSD project members and other forks as well. You are failing to give Theo and his crew the credit they deserve. OpenBSD is much more than the offspring of a temper tantrum.
We could add a comment here about how we simultaneously need and despise the noisy idealists and visionaries in our midst, throw in some stuff about RMS, MLK, John Lennon, drink vodka toasts to Victor Tsoi and then lie in a besotted, weeping clump on the floor.
We aren't talking about exporting the technology, we are talking about exporting documents that talk about the technology. And if that is illegal, perhaps this thread is too, because it is talking about documents that talk about crypto technology. Turtles all the way down.
I know there are export controls on the chips, but I don't believe it would be illegal to give away the datasheets, for the reasons that I wrote about to a couple other guys. In short, they are only the freaking datasheets, not the crypto-goodies themselves. By the way, the last thing NSA would fuss about would be if the datasheets helped you hack the technology -- they worry about too-strong encryption, not too-weak encryption (with the exception of that time they silently fixed the differential cryptanalysis vulnerability in DES, before the world at large knew what differential cryptanalysis was). (By the way, hi to you guys in Fort Meade, if you're reading this.)
When you say "documentation," the word is too broad and too ambiguous here. We are talking about datasheets, not Verilog code. The latter would be subject to export control, but I don't think so for the datasheets -- and they were available for download a few years ago. I just can't believe the export controls would apply to the datasheets. Of course I don't know what is on them, and I know the export controls are fairly irrational, but I bet the datasheets have much less crypto-goodness in them than, say, Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography, which is OK to export. So, your statement is correct but I believe it is irrelevant.
whether hifn are indeed required by law to ask [for] personal information...
Almost unthinkable: why would it be illegal to show the chip DATASHEETS to people? There is no such law. Selling the chip is one thing, but sharing your datasheet is another indeed. It's just bs.
And to quote Charles Dickens, whose spirit you are invoking,
in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
It is still a problem. In general, the "justice system" is weak and beset by many diseases -- laws are enforced inconsistently, judges and prosecutors are susceptible to bribes, the rule of law is not very respected and its value not appreciated. Television detectives use unethical techniques like bugging or entrapment and the subtext is, this is fine. I don't know if real police do this often but it wouldn't come as a surprise. Sometimes police can even just act like brute thugs, and ask for "a token of respect" or some such just for doing their job. As a result, in the former soviet union it is hard for people here to understand why at least a small contingent of Americans are so upset over domestic spying. The attitude is, "Why would you American citizens expect any differently? Why do you act surprised?" And the answer, because it violates the Constitution of the USA, seems so naive.
I have been bullied by police, and apparently been wiretapped, within the last ten years. Around the same time, an anonymous person claiming to be police called a friend of mine and tried to intimidate him by demonstrating that he knew what we had talked about privately, in someone else's apartment. I don't know how they did that, but I suspect it was by a phone bug or maybe interferometry eavesdropping at the window. I don't think it was done legally, but it is hard to be sure, and like I said, who is to say what the laws are when people make up and forget about the laws at the drop of a hat?
Unfortunately this always happens. Homo sapiens the species does not really learn. America is rusting to bits just as all empires do. There is nothing new under the sun.
Look for the silver lining! Can you build a web site? Got some Perl-fu? Then let's automate our legislators: we'll start "LexBay" or "eBill" as the external interface to our "Polit-Bot," who can suck in graft and bribes thousands to millions of times faster than an antiquated, human politician. And we pass the savings on to you, *-lobby!
Click to insert title for your legislation
* Enter acronym based on online safety for retarded children, or use tag %AUTOACRONYM and one will be created for you
* Enter your initial bid
* Remember that other eBill users who bid higher get to change the text
And if you win, we'll notify you! Express implementation of the law costs extra, and ex-post-facto enforcement is possible but expensive.
Looking at your government and your way of life makes me feel free, albeit poor.
Well said. I probably will someday have to live again in America (for complex reasons) but I am displeased by the idea, because the government is so anti-freedom.
I just wanted to encourage you, cp.tar, to pursue your student club idea. That is a great idea. You and your friends can really learn a lot, and many of the things that you start to study just "because it is interesting" will turn out later to be really useful. Lisp and Prolog might be the easiest to dig into because the software is free. Hardware hacking is more difficult -- it can require special, expensive equipment, which you might not have -- it also is fun and mind-expanding. With all the open source software around, now is a great time to be young and interested in informatika.
AC, you are getting Information Science and Information Systems confused. The former is sometimes called "informatika"; the latter has a much more pragmatic, applied flavor. Obviously cp.tar's curriculum is light on theory, but (as an example) a course in database backup and recovery is not one of the "missing vitamins" that his program would need to become a bit more welterweight. His plan for a student club, and learning Lisp, Prolog, different OSes, with some hardware hacking, however is the right sort of "supplement" he needs.
Just wanted to clarify the difference between Info. Science and MIS.
You are right, and this highlights a critical factor. As long as the website is working fine (commercial nor otherwise) the owner's attitude is usually, "Step right up and join in the fun" or "Get em while they're hot" or "Read my wisdom" and basically acts like he is standing in the center of the marketplace.
But the instant that anyone discovers, say, an account with username "user" and password "user" or a server vulnerable to putting ".." in the URL, suddenly the 'house' analogy gets whipped out: "OMG, this is like you just walked into my bedroom when I'm having sex with my wife and you started taking pictures and singing Old Lang Syne! How violated I am, you cad! My website is like my house."
But they can't have it both ways. This shows the serious schism in the averge site owner's understanding of just what a web site is -- what it means that millions of people can read the pages you are serving up, and often can affect things on your server. Both analogies are kind of weak, but the second is a lot weaker.
[The] summary makes it sound like they can circumvent state legislation. Um, my constitutional skills may be a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure that's what the 10th Amendment was all about.
This is pretty clearly regulation of interstate commerce -- and thus very much constitutional, so the 10th amendment does not apply. If it is constitutional, it trumps state law because of the Supremacy clause.
(FWIW, I agree with your first four paragraphs.)
LandruBek
It's worse than that. "Indifferent" means "unconcerned," but "disinterested" means something else. In fact the word is a complement. It's the opposite of Halliburton-style conflicts of interest.
Slashdot Mirror
But... but... I thought information wanted to be free!?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously, a better metaphor might be "a kilogram of ore." A database of personal information is like a mineral deposit. It might be rich and worth mining, though it depends on what you are looking for. Only valuable in volume. Really though, information is not much like any material object, including currency. Which incidentally is why filesharing is really not much like theft. I agree with your general attitude, but I think it helps everyone if we draw a bright line between information and material goods.
Well, for years I've been advising them to reverse the polarity whenever anything goes wrong, and as you can see, it worked. -- Geordi La Forge
I've already read Wayner, but stop and think what you've just said here. That's the ONLY reason that OpenBSD exists? You mean OpenBSD and OpenSSH (which are both part of the same project) exist for no other reason? Concern for security, "true hacker" coding skillz, ability to coordinate and organize the efforts of many people... these count for nothing? I will remind you that there have been other people who disagreed with *BSD project members and other forks as well. You are failing to give Theo and his crew the credit they deserve. OpenBSD is much more than the offspring of a temper tantrum.
We could add a comment here about how we simultaneously need and despise the noisy idealists and visionaries in our midst, throw in some stuff about RMS, MLK, John Lennon, drink vodka toasts to Victor Tsoi and then lie in a besotted, weeping clump on the floor.
I know there are export controls on the chips, but I don't believe it would be illegal to give away the datasheets, for the reasons that I wrote about to a couple other guys. In short, they are only the freaking datasheets, not the crypto-goodies themselves. By the way, the last thing NSA would fuss about would be if the datasheets helped you hack the technology -- they worry about too-strong encryption, not too-weak encryption (with the exception of that time they silently fixed the differential cryptanalysis vulnerability in DES, before the world at large knew what differential cryptanalysis was). (By the way, hi to you guys in Fort Meade, if you're reading this.)
When you say "documentation," the word is too broad and too ambiguous here. We are talking about datasheets, not Verilog code. The latter would be subject to export control, but I don't think so for the datasheets -- and they were available for download a few years ago. I just can't believe the export controls would apply to the datasheets. Of course I don't know what is on them, and I know the export controls are fairly irrational, but I bet the datasheets have much less crypto-goodness in them than, say, Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography, which is OK to export. So, your statement is correct but I believe it is irrelevant.
Almost unthinkable: why would it be illegal to show the chip DATASHEETS to people? There is no such law. Selling the chip is one thing, but sharing your datasheet is another indeed. It's just bs.
[[Space for obligatory "copyright infringement is not theft" comment]] <-- Probably you know how that one goes.
"You have been served."
Yeesh, does this make me a BASIC nazi? (Shudder.)
in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
(found here)
I have been bullied by police, and apparently been wiretapped, within the last ten years. Around the same time, an anonymous person claiming to be police called a friend of mine and tried to intimidate him by demonstrating that he knew what we had talked about privately, in someone else's apartment. I don't know how they did that, but I suspect it was by a phone bug or maybe interferometry eavesdropping at the window. I don't think it was done legally, but it is hard to be sure, and like I said, who is to say what the laws are when people make up and forget about the laws at the drop of a hat?
But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Eivind, "And who is my neighbor?"
Can't he do both? Maybe he is doing both!
Unfortunately this always happens. Homo sapiens the species does not really learn. America is rusting to bits just as all empires do. There is nothing new under the sun.
I'm not a doctor, but I am hungry, and my shirt has blue stripes.
Click to insert title for your legislation
* Enter acronym based on online safety for retarded children, or use tag %AUTOACRONYM and one will be created for you
* Enter your initial bid
* Remember that other eBill users who bid higher get to change the text
And if you win, we'll notify you! Express implementation of the law costs extra, and ex-post-facto enforcement is possible but expensive.
Henry: shot first!
Looking at your government and your way of life makes me feel free, albeit poor.
Well said. I probably will someday have to live again in America (for complex reasons) but I am displeased by the idea, because the government is so anti-freedom.
I just wanted to encourage you, cp.tar, to pursue your student club idea. That is a great idea. You and your friends can really learn a lot, and many of the things that you start to study just "because it is interesting" will turn out later to be really useful. Lisp and Prolog might be the easiest to dig into because the software is free. Hardware hacking is more difficult -- it can require special, expensive equipment, which you might not have -- it also is fun and mind-expanding. With all the open source software around, now is a great time to be young and interested in informatika.
AC, you are getting Information Science and Information Systems confused. The former is sometimes called "informatika"; the latter has a much more pragmatic, applied flavor. Obviously cp.tar's curriculum is light on theory, but (as an example) a course in database backup and recovery is not one of the "missing vitamins" that his program would need to become a bit more welterweight. His plan for a student club, and learning Lisp, Prolog, different OSes, with some hardware hacking, however is the right sort of "supplement" he needs.
Just wanted to clarify the difference between Info. Science and MIS.
Whoosh! (JWOYH)
How do you suppose the regional prosecutors afford their new Benzes? On their government salaries? Heh.
UNFUNNY's not funny .. uh, no, nevermind, yeesh.
I guess you're right.
You are right, and this highlights a critical factor. As long as the website is working fine (commercial nor otherwise) the owner's attitude is usually, "Step right up and join in the fun" or "Get em while they're hot" or "Read my wisdom" and basically acts like he is standing in the center of the marketplace.
."
But the instant that anyone discovers, say, an account with username "user" and password "user" or a server vulnerable to putting ".." in the URL, suddenly the 'house' analogy gets whipped out: "OMG, this is like you just walked into my bedroom when I'm having sex with my wife and you started taking pictures and singing Old Lang Syne! How violated I am, you cad! My website is like my house
But they can't have it both ways. This shows the serious schism in the averge site owner's understanding of just what a web site is -- what it means that millions of people can read the pages you are serving up, and often can affect things on your server. Both analogies are kind of weak, but the second is a lot weaker.
the time I spent learning that
:-)
What, like, three, three-and-a-half minutes?
But you try telling that to the laid-off roughnecks from the Baby Get Well Card factory!
[The] summary makes it sound like they can circumvent state legislation. Um, my constitutional skills may be a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure that's what the 10th Amendment was all about.
This is pretty clearly regulation of interstate commerce -- and thus very much constitutional, so the 10th amendment does not apply. If it is constitutional, it trumps state law because of the Supremacy clause.
(FWIW, I agree with your first four paragraphs.)
LandruBek
It's worse than that. "Indifferent" means "unconcerned," but "disinterested" means something else. In fact the word is a complement. It's the opposite of Halliburton-style conflicts of interest.