Thank you. I hope people won't reply to you with "but of course 911 service works at Burning Man!" like they've been replying to me.... The point is that there's already an extremely good and tested system in place that doesn't depend on cellphones.
That is not what you were bitching about. Your complaint was that the local Sheriff's office wouldn't have a clue about the location of Burning Man, which was a flat out lie and you needed to be called out for fabricating that lie.
911's not really going to be all that useful at an event like this. Better to rely on the security mechanisms already available in meatspace, tuned over the past decade of burning man, that takes into account states of altered reality, drunken orgies and performance art.
My complaint had nothing to do with not knowing where Burning Man is. It had to do with not knowing how to deal with the call:
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man, I think. Unless they set up a local cell and all 911 calls got redirected to site security. Most likely, based on location data, any 911 call will just get a "911 is not available in your area" message.
Yes, of course you don't "need" to use a cell phone. Police and EMTs got to places and helped out well before cell phones were invented, heck even before telephones or radios were invented. I'm impressed that the Burning Man organizers realize that when you get 30k people together, sometimes shit happens and you need some help. Frankly the whole thing is amazing in terms of organizing any sort of event with that degree of logistics in one of the most inhospitable places in the world that might as well be on Mars. In fact, I think working out the logistics to set up a colony on Mars might even be easier.
Exactly. And 911 would be just as useful on Mars.
If you hate the cell phones, state that and be on your way. I think you are full of it to think that way, but I will let you have your opinion on the matter and not try to convince you otherwise other than to state I have come to another conclusion about the matter. The Open BTS guys think that way too and don't give a damn about what others think other than to stay out of their way at the Burning Man.
I have absolutely no problem with OpenBTS being at Burning Man; I'd actually give them kudos for handling 911, which someone mentioned that they do in response to one of my earlier comments.
To bring back perspective: the original comment I was responding to was
. I agree, people rely on their phones too much, but it is a good thing to have for 911 capabilities and such at an event like this.
Once again, the designed system works, works well, and doesn't rely on 911.
Well, it's directly under human control. You can train yourself to recognize what arises from each hemisphere, recognize which is being more active and switch or synchronize. The explanations and techniques for doing this have been around for millenia.
The market wasn't shut down because GS lost money, but because something was obviously systematically wrong.
What system went wrong? Not the exchange's systems. The systems within individual houses. That is their own fault. They deserve to take huge losses. They set up automatic systems with no human intervention. They rake in trillions by being able to respond faster than mere humans who can't afford such systems. Nobody stops the trading when those systems make a million dollars in a single hour. They should be allowed to lose money, too. You shouldn't have it only one way.
I already explained this earlier in the thread... no system went wrong... but the overall system behaviour looked odd, like something *might* have gone wrong. As I stated before, once they realized what it was, they should have brought everything back up, as it wasn't a glitch in the exchange's systems.
I can only think of a few reasons why they didn't, the predominant one being that trading had already closed for the day once they'd zeroed in on the abnormality, another being the "too big to fail" excuse.
Thank you. I hope people won't reply to you with "but of course 911 service works at Burning Man!" like they've been replying to me.... The point is that there's already an extremely good and tested system in place that doesn't depend on cellphones.
Explanations of that sort are, unfortunately, pseudo-explanations. The key terms are not defined (e.g. "surge", "signal", "overridden", "driving consciousness", etc) because we don't know what they actually stand for. So such explanations are, at best, a placeholder until we figure out what's really going on. Placeholders are fine, but its important to place minimal weight on them and not fall into the trap of believing them to be any sort of real explanation.
Very true; that's a dumbed down description of observed processes, not a theorem as to how the mechanism actually functions or precisely what cases the cognitive switch. Even the right/left bit is fuzzy, as no two brains function precisely the same, and men and women's brains actually function significantly differently.
Having experience with lucid dreaming, I did have an "aha!" moment when the original study came out (1999/2000) though. As an over-archiving description of what's going on, it holds together across multiple kinds of physical and chemical-based altering of conscious states..
Why are you making ad hominem attacks against Galileo, and throwing out your own "evidence-free" assertions that he made "evidence-free" assertions? What does someone thinking someone else is an asshole have anything to do with their actual science?
To answer the first question: it's pretty solidly researched and can be backed up with manuscripts. If he was that bad when things were written down, he was unlikely to be much better in person (especially considering the written accounts about in-person meetings reflect the other manuscripts).
To answer the second: Nothing -- but this "historical reflection" article doesn't have much to do with science; it's a "history" article, and as such, is open to ad hominem attacks.
Now if the original submission had been submitted under the headline of "new scientific finding proves some of Galileo's theories and disproves others" (and was backed up by research linked in the summary) you'd have a point.
We've had dupes on here... we've had old stuff, but this is a new low. Now we're getting a summary about a debate that happened centuries ago, and then having parts of it attributed to the wrong people (Galileo != Copernicus), history as to the person's character rewritten (Galileo was a muleheaded jerk who got some stuff right, some stuff wrong, but generally said the wrong things at the wrong time, and wouldn't back down -- generally fabricated proofs for other people's well-researched conclusions that stood up under a light glance, but often failed under examination, etc.), and then completely misunderstands the article the summary is linking to.
Oh well... we all come here for the comments anyway (which usually follow all of the above failures 80% of the time).
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man,
Modern cellphones that have GPS receivers transmit GPS coordinates when calling 911. This has been the law for quite some time now.
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man, I think. Unless they set up a local cell and all 911 calls got redirected to site security. Most likely, based on location data, any 911 call will just get a "911 is not available in your area" message.
I think that was already covered...?
the entire point of my post is that if the call actually made it to the closest 911 dispatch office based on location data, they'd have no clue how to respond other than "that's not in my area". When you're in the middle of nowhere, you aren't covered by anyone's 911 service. If the dispatcher didn't know about Burning Man, they might call out search & rescue I guess.
Err... NO. If Goldman had a computer glitch that caused erroneous trades, that's their fault and they should lose money for that and the market SHOULD go down, and trigger sell waves or whatever. Nobody else gets do-overs, neither should Goldman.
There's no do-over here; the system was halted, it wasn't reversed. All those trades went through, and can't be reverted. But they didn't know what caused it until they investigated, and they aren't going to let people continue trading when something fishy might be going on.
This is the way it's designed* to work
*albeit designed by those who profit from the system -- a circular thing, as anyone who profits under the current system becomes one of the "big guys" and has a vested interest in perpetuating the system that makes them money.
Oh, and as for this being an already known phenomenon -- what's really happening* is that your left cortex, which focuses on detail and anchors the "me" in the surge of signals your brain processes, gets overridden by the right cortex, which tends to ignore localities (like your body) and instead focus on piecing together the bigger picture. So if your right cortex takes over driving your consciousness, your body itself is no longer the predominant frame of reference, triggering OBE.
* best theory on what's really happening anyway -- one that's been posited and tested over the past decade by neuroscientists.
I didn't find this to be all that new either though; if you want an OBE, just hold someone's hand and feel their pulse. Then work with the other person to relax and synchronize your heartbeats. Works even better if they're both visualized for some visual feedback. Once your heart rates are in sync, you'll start feeling that out of body experience. You might feel like you're in their body, or might just feel "detached" -- results vary.
I agree, people rely on their phones too much, but it is a good thing to have for 911 capabilities and such at an event like this.
911's not really going to be all that useful at an event like this. Better to rely on the security mechanisms already available in meatspace, tuned over the past decade of burning man, that takes into account states of altered reality, drunken orgies and performance art.
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man, I think. Unless they set up a local cell and all 911 calls got redirected to site security. Most likely, based on location data, any 911 call will just get a "911 is not available in your area" message.
If you have tethering you should turn it on, so others can mooch off your service. That way you can lower the cell traffic, and use your cell phone as a hand warmer.
Just make sure you hook it up to a nice sized solar panel so you don't run out of juice during the day... and charge up a battery, as I'm sure actual cell service spikes at around dusk.
Some high profile companies/people fucked up and lost money, so the market shut down.
Why didn't it shut down when I lost money in the stock market? Oh right, $1500 isn't enough for me to matter.
I'm sure I'm wrong on this. Someone correct me!
When your loss can trigger a sell wave, they'll shut the market down to investigate. The market wasn't shut down because GS lost money, but because something was obviously systematically wrong, and they wanted to figure out what it was before allowing more trades. Once they found out what it was, they could have brought everything back up, as it was just a bad algorithm used by a single (large) trader.
it's kind of like if you get hit with a pebble vs hearing a loud rumbling sound and getting pelted with pebbles -- you're more likely to vacate the area and then investigate in the second instance, even if it's the same monkey hitting you with multiple pebbles.
I would rather have a true democracy where we the smelly common people could decide for ourselves who should rule us, and that includes changing our minds if the people we pick turn out to be stinkers in disguise.
The whole point of the government is to serve the public. Government ministers are in fact often called public servants. Shouldn't the public get to decide who best serves its interests?
Are you serious? Do you really want people who are putting their children in debt, have no fiscal responsibility, and don't care about anybody but themselves making decisions on a Federal level?
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. Democracy is also the lowest common denominator (meaning that instead of skimming the cream off the top, you're scraping the dregs off the bottom).
We do seem to be approaching the point where it wouldn't be much worse than what goes for a limited democratic republic these days though.
You have to have excellent grades, and it's a lot of extra work in university when all your classmates are goofing off.
Or you can be the son of somebody that was a friend of a friend of Deng Xiaoping, like most of the fourth-generation leadership.
No, you need both. It's just with such a large population, you're likely to find a significant number of people who got high grades AND are the son of a friend of a friend of Deng Xioping. After all, that's 3 degrees of separation, which is good enough for the NSA.
But the NSA isn't in the business of routing data; it's in the business of mirroring data. This means that you get something like: source
| router A
| router B --> NSA
| router C
| destination
So if router B is up to the task of sending the signal down a fixed path as well as whatever BGP indicates, there should be no slowdown. If it isn't, that's going to be a constant issue, not something that varies. It's either good enough for the volume of data it is exposed to, or it isn't. There's no analysis happening at the router, and the NSA isn't doing stateful inspection.
More likely a QoS issue by some stateful router in the hop chain, or even a corrupted BGP table.
Unfortunately, this is exactly what I imagine happening, unless the government gives the FCC some sort of mandate regarding car messh communications. I suppose it could also be handled by the transportation authority, for all cars doing it on public roadways....
This is trumped by hate speech laws, for example. It stands in all cases where it is not overridden for some reason thought reasonable by the legal system. So lawsuits can happen about anything, and will come to court as long as the plaintiff can convince the judge that the nullification of freedom of expression is reasonable in this instance.
Seems like in this case, they're trying to trump freedom of expression with libel/slander laws. Possible, but not likely in this case, and this is NOT the kind of publicity a hotel should be wanting to bring on itself.
Slashdot Mirror
Thank you. I hope people won't reply to you with "but of course 911 service works at Burning Man!" like they've been replying to me.... The point is that there's already an extremely good and tested system in place that doesn't depend on cellphones.
That is not what you were bitching about. Your complaint was that the local Sheriff's office wouldn't have a clue about the location of Burning Man, which was a flat out lie and you needed to be called out for fabricating that lie.
My complaint had nothing to do with not knowing where Burning Man is. It had to do with not knowing how to deal with the call:
Yes, of course you don't "need" to use a cell phone. Police and EMTs got to places and helped out well before cell phones were invented, heck even before telephones or radios were invented. I'm impressed that the Burning Man organizers realize that when you get 30k people together, sometimes shit happens and you need some help. Frankly the whole thing is amazing in terms of organizing any sort of event with that degree of logistics in one of the most inhospitable places in the world that might as well be on Mars. In fact, I think working out the logistics to set up a colony on Mars might even be easier.
Exactly. And 911 would be just as useful on Mars.
If you hate the cell phones, state that and be on your way. I think you are full of it to think that way, but I will let you have your opinion on the matter and not try to convince you otherwise other than to state I have come to another conclusion about the matter. The Open BTS guys think that way too and don't give a damn about what others think other than to stay out of their way at the Burning Man.
I have absolutely no problem with OpenBTS being at Burning Man; I'd actually give them kudos for handling 911, which someone mentioned that they do in response to one of my earlier comments.
To bring back perspective: the original comment I was responding to was
. I agree, people rely on their phones too much, but it is a good thing to have for 911 capabilities and such at an event like this.
Once again, the designed system works, works well, and doesn't rely on 911.
Really...? modded troll?
It was supposed to be thought provoking and on-topic.
Oh well, I've got karma to burn.
Bingo!
Well, it's directly under human control. You can train yourself to recognize what arises from each hemisphere, recognize which is being more active and switch or synchronize. The explanations and techniques for doing this have been around for millenia.
My point exactly.
The market wasn't shut down because GS lost money, but because something was obviously systematically wrong.
What system went wrong? Not the exchange's systems. The systems within individual houses. That is their own fault. They deserve to take huge losses. They set up automatic systems with no human intervention. They rake in trillions by being able to respond faster than mere humans who can't afford such systems. Nobody stops the trading when those systems make a million dollars in a single hour. They should be allowed to lose money, too. You shouldn't have it only one way.
I already explained this earlier in the thread... no system went wrong... but the overall system behaviour looked odd, like something *might* have gone wrong. As I stated before, once they realized what it was, they should have brought everything back up, as it wasn't a glitch in the exchange's systems.
I can only think of a few reasons why they didn't, the predominant one being that trading had already closed for the day once they'd zeroed in on the abnormality, another being the "too big to fail" excuse.
Thank you. I hope people won't reply to you with "but of course 911 service works at Burning Man!" like they've been replying to me.... The point is that there's already an extremely good and tested system in place that doesn't depend on cellphones.
Explanations of that sort are, unfortunately, pseudo-explanations. The key terms are not defined (e.g. "surge", "signal", "overridden", "driving consciousness", etc) because we don't know what they actually stand for. So such explanations are, at best, a placeholder until we figure out what's really going on. Placeholders are fine, but its important to place minimal weight on them and not fall into the trap of believing them to be any sort of real explanation.
Very true; that's a dumbed down description of observed processes, not a theorem as to how the mechanism actually functions or precisely what cases the cognitive switch. Even the right/left bit is fuzzy, as no two brains function precisely the same, and men and women's brains actually function significantly differently.
Having experience with lucid dreaming, I did have an "aha!" moment when the original study came out (1999/2000) though. As an over-archiving description of what's going on, it holds together across multiple kinds of physical and chemical-based altering of conscious states..
Why are you making ad hominem attacks against Galileo, and throwing out your own "evidence-free" assertions that he made "evidence-free" assertions? What does someone thinking someone else is an asshole have anything to do with their actual science?
To answer the first question: it's pretty solidly researched and can be backed up with manuscripts. If he was that bad when things were written down, he was unlikely to be much better in person (especially considering the written accounts about in-person meetings reflect the other manuscripts).
To answer the second: Nothing -- but this "historical reflection" article doesn't have much to do with science; it's a "history" article, and as such, is open to ad hominem attacks.
Now if the original submission had been submitted under the headline of "new scientific finding proves some of Galileo's theories and disproves others" (and was backed up by research linked in the summary) you'd have a point.
We've had dupes on here... we've had old stuff, but this is a new low. Now we're getting a summary about a debate that happened centuries ago, and then having parts of it attributed to the wrong people (Galileo != Copernicus), history as to the person's character rewritten (Galileo was a muleheaded jerk who got some stuff right, some stuff wrong, but generally said the wrong things at the wrong time, and wouldn't back down -- generally fabricated proofs for other people's well-researched conclusions that stood up under a light glance, but often failed under examination, etc.), and then completely misunderstands the article the summary is linking to.
Oh well... we all come here for the comments anyway (which usually follow all of the above failures 80% of the time).
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man,
Modern cellphones that have GPS receivers transmit GPS coordinates when calling 911. This has been the law for quite some time now.
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man, I think. Unless they set up a local cell and all 911 calls got redirected to site security. Most likely, based on location data, any 911 call will just get a "911 is not available in your area" message.
I think that was already covered...?
the entire point of my post is that if the call actually made it to the closest 911 dispatch office based on location data, they'd have no clue how to respond other than "that's not in my area". When you're in the middle of nowhere, you aren't covered by anyone's 911 service. If the dispatcher didn't know about Burning Man, they might call out search & rescue I guess.
Err... NO. If Goldman had a computer glitch that caused erroneous trades, that's their fault and they should lose money for that and the market SHOULD go down, and trigger sell waves or whatever. Nobody else gets do-overs, neither should Goldman.
There's no do-over here; the system was halted, it wasn't reversed. All those trades went through, and can't be reverted. But they didn't know what caused it until they investigated, and they aren't going to let people continue trading when something fishy might be going on.
This is the way it's designed* to work
*albeit designed by those who profit from the system -- a circular thing, as anyone who profits under the current system becomes one of the "big guys" and has a vested interest in perpetuating the system that makes them money.
Oh, and as for this being an already known phenomenon -- what's really happening* is that your left cortex, which focuses on detail and anchors the "me" in the surge of signals your brain processes, gets overridden by the right cortex, which tends to ignore localities (like your body) and instead focus on piecing together the bigger picture. So if your right cortex takes over driving your consciousness, your body itself is no longer the predominant frame of reference, triggering OBE.
* best theory on what's really happening anyway -- one that's been posited and tested over the past decade by neuroscientists.
I didn't find this to be all that new either though; if you want an OBE, just hold someone's hand and feel their pulse. Then work with the other person to relax and synchronize your heartbeats. Works even better if they're both visualized for some visual feedback. Once your heart rates are in sync, you'll start feeling that out of body experience. You might feel like you're in their body, or might just feel "detached" -- results vary.
Do these guys have a license to transmit in the cellular bands?
You've never been to Burning Man, have you?
Today's burning man is about as counter-culture as a midnight madness sale at Walmart. The only difference is Walmart doesn't charge admission.
But The Man's culture is counter to the counter-culture culture, man!
I agree, people rely on their phones too much, but it is a good thing to have for 911 capabilities and such at an event like this.
911's not really going to be all that useful at an event like this. Better to rely on the security mechanisms already available in meatspace, tuned over the past decade of burning man, that takes into account states of altered reality, drunken orgies and performance art.
Really... a 911 dispatcher would be completely at a loss as to what to do if they got a call from Burning Man, I think. Unless they set up a local cell and all 911 calls got redirected to site security. Most likely, based on location data, any 911 call will just get a "911 is not available in your area" message.
If you have tethering you should turn it on, so others can mooch off your service. That way you can lower the cell traffic, and use your cell phone as a hand warmer.
Just make sure you hook it up to a nice sized solar panel so you don't run out of juice during the day... and charge up a battery, as I'm sure actual cell service spikes at around dusk.
Actually, "The big hangups are cell phones" or "The big hangup is cell phone connectivity"
Nah; it's really "The big hangups are cell +++ATH0#$*(SD^F&*^ --NO CARRIER--
.
.
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.
.
.
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.
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I always heard that Burning Man was off the hook....
Some high profile companies/people fucked up and lost money, so the market shut down.
Why didn't it shut down when I lost money in the stock market? Oh right, $1500 isn't enough for me to matter.
I'm sure I'm wrong on this. Someone correct me!
When your loss can trigger a sell wave, they'll shut the market down to investigate. The market wasn't shut down because GS lost money, but because something was obviously systematically wrong, and they wanted to figure out what it was before allowing more trades. Once they found out what it was, they could have brought everything back up, as it was just a bad algorithm used by a single (large) trader.
it's kind of like if you get hit with a pebble vs hearing a loud rumbling sound and getting pelted with pebbles -- you're more likely to vacate the area and then investigate in the second instance, even if it's the same monkey hitting you with multiple pebbles.
I would rather have a true democracy where we the smelly common people could decide for ourselves who should rule us, and that includes changing our minds if the people we pick turn out to be stinkers in disguise.
The whole point of the government is to serve the public. Government ministers are in fact often called public servants. Shouldn't the public get to decide who best serves its interests?
Are you serious? Do you really want people who are putting their children in debt, have no fiscal responsibility, and don't care about anybody but themselves making decisions on a Federal level?
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. Democracy is also the lowest common denominator (meaning that instead of skimming the cream off the top, you're scraping the dregs off the bottom).
We do seem to be approaching the point where it wouldn't be much worse than what goes for a limited democratic republic these days though.
Or you can be the son of somebody that was a friend of a friend of Deng Xiaoping, like most of the fourth-generation leadership.
No, you need both. It's just with such a large population, you're likely to find a significant number of people who got high grades AND are the son of a friend of a friend of Deng Xioping. After all, that's 3 degrees of separation, which is good enough for the NSA.
It's dateline is 2023. It's fiction. NOT news.
Not only is it fiction, ,but
They've only committed to invest up to $375 million in 2023??? That's going to buy what, a fleet of 500 cars?
But the NSA isn't in the business of routing data; it's in the business of mirroring data. This means that you get something like:
source
|
router A
|
router B --> NSA
|
router C
|
destination
So if router B is up to the task of sending the signal down a fixed path as well as whatever BGP indicates, there should be no slowdown. If it isn't, that's going to be a constant issue, not something that varies. It's either good enough for the volume of data it is exposed to, or it isn't. There's no analysis happening at the router, and the NSA isn't doing stateful inspection.
More likely a QoS issue by some stateful router in the hop chain, or even a corrupted BGP table.
Unfortunately, this is exactly what I imagine happening, unless the government gives the FCC some sort of mandate regarding car messh communications. I suppose it could also be handled by the transportation authority, for all cars doing it on public roadways....
This is trumped by hate speech laws, for example. It stands in all cases where it is not overridden for some reason thought reasonable by the legal system. So lawsuits can happen about anything, and will come to court as long as the plaintiff can convince the judge that the nullification of freedom of expression is reasonable in this instance.
Seems like in this case, they're trying to trump freedom of expression with libel/slander laws. Possible, but not likely in this case, and this is NOT the kind of publicity a hotel should be wanting to bring on itself.