I remember being the only female on several different BBSes -- and no one figuring this out for several months. I was quite amused.
same situation when I played Magic (remember, those cards that you (yes, you) used to play with all the time with every other geek in sight), especially at math tournaments. I was REALLY stared at. classic comment: "are you REALLY a girl?" (this is only funny if you've seen me, I guess. let's just say that I've never had anyone mistake me for a guy yet, and that it doesn't have to do with my long hair)
however, most people were very friendly, and only a few were patronizing. I find that I prefered it before, in some ways. back then, it would be inconcievable to make offers of cybersex, etc... (well, at least I never saw any!):)
"There's something happenin' here and what it is ain't exac-a-ly clear"
:)
actually, this won't encrypt your monitor, so people can still walk around with a big antenna and take a look at the radiation streaming off your monitor...
of course, it would probably protect against van eck phreaking, would it not? I believe the place where the bytes are snarfed from is the nice, big, transmitting cable to your monitor (or the nice single set of wires that serve the same purpose, in a laptop). if you integrate the display chip with the encryption chip in an LCD, you'd be SOL. probably the same thing for CRTs, but it would be harder...
um, actually, I believe that Linus has decreed that bianary-only drivers are ok -- I suppose a way of getting hardware to work that you can't get to work any other way...
and I think that they can keep everything that matters in hardware -- of course, it's going to cost us. lots.
I would argue that modern feminism is based on the idea that one should not be utterly DEPENDANT. there is a difference between not dependant and independant, I hope you realize. and in this sense, yes, careers are financial freedom in the same sense that not living with your parents is financial freedom.
I don't hate men, not do I distrust them. I am a feminist. perhaps in your world these things don't match up. perhaps you think of feminism through the filter of "feminazi". perhaps you should take another look.
When I have talked with Ms. Borg, she has never suggested that the technologial fields are unfair to women becasue there are fewer of them than men. I've never heard her even suggest that every profession should be 52/48 female/male. however, I have heard her advocate the removal of barriers to women (and anyone else) that have nothing to do with skill.
what could you possibly have against that? these barriers do exist. I personally can't see any reason for them.
I have trouble believing that you believe that capable women should be ENCOURAGED not to work -- that they should only reproduce. perhaps I have misunderstood you? I hope so.
suggesting that the most capable/smart/talented people should be reproduced is one thing (it's called eugenics), but suggesting that for one second that I, or any other woman, should be trapped by what I can do is utterly sexist and demeaning.
I'm hoping I've misunderstood you, but I'm afraid I haven't.
well, I'd rather be hacking robots than working on spanning-tree proofs (as interesting as I find it, there is a point where return on investment is extremely low -- that point being where the question makes bad assumptions):)
and I wouldn't be able to live with you anyways, because I'm guessing you're a guy... that's one of the problems with not having many girls in CS -- I don't know anyone who wants an apartment (besides guys)!
and you just wait. finish up, and you can do whatever you damn well please...
well, if those are all that are qualified and interested, you're right in your opinion. however, I have observed barriers to entry that have nothing to do with skill in many technical majors. there's nothing to lose and so much to gain by taking these down.
yes, I see semi-qualified female EECS/CS majors at berkeley. I see a LOT more unqualified guys. the girls stick out, whether good or bad, and there's a lot of attention paid to their performance because (get this) people have different expectations for them. personally I think that's a load of crap.
and I don't give a damn about you. now we're even:)
look, in my school, CS is in the college of engineering. it is an engineering major. you have to take a lot of engineering courses. and, oddly enough, many of these courses are very well taught.
oddly enough, I am a female comp sci major. I like the major. I'm banging my head on spanning-tree optimization proofs right now, but it's a good major. I also like robotics. even control theory. I also know many other people who like the major, at many different schools.
so just becasue the program at YOUR school doesn't fit YOUR needs and may be too difficult for YOU, that doesn't mean that even one other person shares that opinion. I think it goes both ways.
and btw, enrollment isn't down anywhere. there are more applicants than ever. there are just fewer of those of us of the female persuasion.
I would hardly describe Anita Borg as a "man hating feminist". nor would I describe her as wanting to bend the world to her will.
I am not denying in the least people's right to choose their profession, but I see nothing wrong to removing barriers that have nothing to do with ability that are placed in the way of certain students. these do exist, mistake me not. of course, letting in a "disadvantaged" student with lower qualifications is never the way to go...
look, I've seen these same sorts of statistics before that say:
the percentage of women in cs programs is declining
this has been happening for quite a while. and I seriously doubt that Anita Borg would stoop to playing with figures like that. if she had to, she wouldn't be concerned about it any more. capiche?
OSes are not the end-all-be-all of Java, either. example: a modular reconfigurable robot from Xerox-PARC called Polybot. (if you were at comdex and caught John Seeley Brown's keynote speech, you saw it. there have also been lots of print, online, and TV pieces on it) it runs on PowerPC chips running compiled Java.
there are lots of embedded Java things coming out now that run embedded Java. remember that the original demo for the language (if I remember correctly) back when it was called Oak, was a bulky TV remote control.
Lea
Warning: the Polybot link will take you to a page that my Mozilla M13 will render and then turn blank grey. I have no idea why, but you might want to try Netscape instead. (or IE, if you're that sort of person)
karma whore (n) -- a poster on slashdot who pimps out his/her comments to the moderator majority simply to raise his/her karma (mostly the sum of moderation done to comments) and thus post by default at +2 instead of +1. these posts can be identified as follows
"Linux is the greatest thing on the planet! It's perfect doodz! I love penguins! I hate Bill Gates and the MPAA"
"I love MS products and you commie pinko Linux users are just not being logical and thoughtful, however I have a real view on the issue, but you aren't going to listen to me"
"I know the moderators are going to mark me down for this, but I just have to say it..."
Posting early in a discussion or as a reply to a high moderation comment with no real content, but including something that no one can really disagree with (except for in one of the cases above)
actually, you might want to take a closer look at the injunction. EVEN if the only purpose of DeCSS was to watch movies under Linux (this is a paraphrase of part of the injunction) it is still illegal becasue it circumvents barriers to access, which is illegal under the DMCA.
I go to a public university. my upper division classes are 200 people... (lower div? think about 2-3x that) there are about 2000 people in the EECS department.
can you imagine a 2000 person camping trip with EECS majors? and this doesn't even include the CS majors (~200) and the minors (too many to count)
the EECS honor society does it, but that's about the limit of people to take. logistics starts interferring in a BIG way after that.:P
I'm still stunned you have that many female CS majors. in the US, female CS admissions are actually DROPPING, according to a few studies I read. oh well... I'm used to hanging around guys anyways:)
although training those money/parent pressure types is (I suppose) good since they can be code gimps, but is a real pity in a way, since they're probably not going to get what they think they are -- most of that's reserved for those who love it!
in many places, I've found what you say to be true. unfortunately, there are also a good number of places where that is not at all true. as I said in another post, I don't tend to see the hackers doing this -- but flip side of this statement is that many people who are doing this have quite a bit of power over you.
oh, and about the school thing -- I had the same experience. (this happened in Massachusetts, never seen anything this bad in California, where I live now) My teacher was EXACTLY the same way, and this was accepted, because "girls weren't as good at science" which is why they never got any A's. I did pull off an A by beating him over the head with it all semester ("um. Jeff and I have the EXACT same answer. why did I get no credit while he got full credit?") but the real debacle came when big science project came around. let it suffice it to say that I worked several hundred hours on mine, it was well documented, and actually uncovered something that the department of public works wasn't so happy about but did acnowledge (them big guys that work there are scary!). I got a B-. the girl sitting 2 seats away got an A on the project (stil a C in the class) for washing cloths with jelly stains in detergent the night before. I was, to put it midly, annoyed. I asked him about the grade. he said, and this is an exact quote --
"you made your results up"
hmm. that would explain the electronic balance I borrowed, as well as all the glassware, the litmus paper, the sample bottles, etc (yes, I brought the stuff back). and of course I just MADE UP all that documentation over a course of months. of course! it all makes sense now!
still makes me mad.
in any case, my point was that it does exist, and that in certain situations, you will probably be dinged for being female -- the only way to avoid this is being very good. thus, many of the not-so-good geek girls will not be around later. I've seen it happen.
where the heck do you go to school? (since we are not giving out our email address, I'm just posting here for you)
I go to UC Berkeley. the percentage of female EECS majors starts out at 17%. then it drops, which means that a. women drop out at a proportionally higher rate than men b. my classes are at least 80% guys c. not to mention the EECS honor society
now, this seems to be pretty average -- CMU averages less, MIT more, but most programs seem to have these sorts of numbers, except for (of course) Wellesley College:)
personally, most of my friends have been guys for a long time, so I'm used to it, though some girls aren't. however, this does make it VERY inconvenient when looking for a roomate. (psst -- Berkeley girls, I'm going to have a nice apartment next semester on Northside, and I'm looking for a roomate. very good rent, considering it's berkeley)
hmm... never tried that one... I don't think it would work on any of the guys I've worked for -- they know me too well, and the damn PARC building is too cold!
rule #1 of female hackers: if you actually stick around that long, you are good. not neccesary ubergeeken, but good.
of course there are always a few exceptions, perhaps even including myself, but most of the women engineers I've known have been more than competent, becasue if they weren't, they would have gotten fed up years ago. (the best defense against sexist bastards is being good -- they have less to complain about):)
oddly enough, most of the offensive comments I've gotten aren't from the hackers I know. they've instead come from educators, managers, and non-technical people. now I'm not going to say that they haven't hurt (despite my general disregard for the opinion of those I don't respect), but I live with it.
I've also never gotten the impression that I'm not wanted from a hacker. I have gotten it, however, from those same teachers who say "girls can't code" or "it's simply a fact that women aren't good at math. don't feel bad, it's a fact of life" or simply express their disapproval of me through grades that do not express the quality of my work, but rather the shape of my chromosones. I've met some real sexist bastards out there, at work, at conferences, in school, and in Real Life, but I've learned to ignore/avoid them, and concentrate on something else.
Not everyone can.
and that is the real pity -- I know girls who really had the hacker mentality, but either because they were simply not able to ignore those who don't (or shouldn't) matter, or becasue the disapproval came from people who should have known better, they went into other areas.
encouraging girls who aren't "the hacker type" won't do any good -- I have seen some of them in my CS classes, and they're struggling (along with the guys there simply becasue they heard CS majors all make a zillion dollars) becasue they simple don't get it. I suppose we will have to wait for the idiots to die off.
Lea
(OTOH, one larval hacker I knew gave me the highest compliment he could think of -- that I was "such a guy". gee. thanks.)
Marsokhod is also the name of the rover we bought from the Russians, which I worked on two summers ago at NASA/AMES. this one hasn't gone anywhere except for field testing -- except for in the nicely realistic 3d models of Mars on the nice SGI boxen.
in russian, Marsokhod just means "Mars rover," just like their lunar rovers, which were named "lunokhod" 1 and 2, so I'm not all that surprised it's not unique.
very simple -- more pictures... there are systems that are pretty good at inferring what they can't see, but for a high level of detail in spots you can't see from one angle, you really need to get them from another...
it's something you don't complain about in 2d... can't really complain about it in 3d either!
NASA does it too. the mars rover Marsokhod has steroscopic vision, and some very nice SGI's make 3d models out of it that you can move Sojourner and other rovers around in...
Slashdot Mirror
and where did you find one of those? just out of curiosity...
Lea
sorry. missed ya there? are you suggesting that half the people there were female? just trust me on this one...
Lea
I remember being the only female on several different BBSes -- and no one figuring this out for several months. I was quite amused.
:)
same situation when I played Magic (remember, those cards that you (yes, you) used to play with all the time with every other geek in sight), especially at math tournaments. I was REALLY stared at. classic comment: "are you REALLY a girl?" (this is only funny if you've seen me, I guess. let's just say that I've never had anyone mistake me for a guy yet, and that it doesn't have to do with my long hair)
however, most people were very friendly, and only a few were patronizing. I find that I prefered it before, in some ways. back then, it would be inconcievable to make offers of cybersex, etc... (well, at least I never saw any!)
Lea
she committed suicide. /. archives, there was >= 1 story one it.
go search the
and she's ALL the female characters on south park, so I have no idea who's going to do em now...
Lea
"There's something happenin' here
and what it is ain't exac-a-ly clear"
:)
actually, this won't encrypt your monitor, so people can still walk around with a big antenna and take a look at the radiation streaming off your monitor...
of course, it would probably protect against van eck phreaking, would it not? I believe the place where the bytes are snarfed from is the nice, big, transmitting cable to your monitor (or the nice single set of wires that serve the same purpose, in a laptop). if you integrate the display chip with the encryption chip in an LCD, you'd be SOL. probably the same thing for CRTs, but it would be harder...
Lea
Lea
um, actually, I believe that Linus has decreed that bianary-only drivers are ok -- I suppose a way of getting hardware to work that you can't get to work any other way...
and I think that they can keep everything that matters in hardware -- of course, it's going to cost us. lots.
Lea
I would argue that modern feminism is based on the idea that one should not be utterly DEPENDANT. there is a difference between not dependant and independant, I hope you realize. and in this sense, yes, careers are financial freedom in the same sense that not living with your parents is financial freedom.
I don't hate men, not do I distrust them. I am a feminist. perhaps in your world these things don't match up. perhaps you think of feminism through the filter of "feminazi". perhaps you should take another look.
When I have talked with Ms. Borg, she has never suggested that the technologial fields are unfair to women becasue there are fewer of them than men. I've never heard her even suggest that every profession should be 52/48 female/male. however, I have heard her advocate the removal of barriers to women (and anyone else) that have nothing to do with skill.
what could you possibly have against that? these barriers do exist. I personally can't see any reason for them.
I have trouble believing that you believe that capable women should be ENCOURAGED not to work -- that they should only reproduce. perhaps I have misunderstood you? I hope so.
suggesting that the most capable/smart/talented people should be reproduced is one thing (it's called eugenics), but suggesting that for one second that I, or any other woman, should be trapped by what I can do is utterly sexist and demeaning.
I'm hoping I've misunderstood you, but I'm afraid I haven't.
Lea
well, I'd rather be hacking robots than working on spanning-tree proofs (as interesting as I find it, there is a point where return on investment is extremely low -- that point being where the question makes bad assumptions) :)
and I wouldn't be able to live with you anyways, because I'm guessing you're a guy... that's one of the problems with not having many girls in CS -- I don't know anyone who wants an apartment (besides guys)!
and you just wait. finish up, and you can do whatever you damn well please...
Lea
well, if those are all that are qualified and interested, you're right in your opinion. however, I have observed barriers to entry that have nothing to do with skill in many technical majors. there's nothing to lose and so much to gain by taking these down.
yes, I see semi-qualified female EECS/CS majors at berkeley. I see a LOT more unqualified guys. the girls stick out, whether good or bad, and there's a lot of attention paid to their performance because (get this) people have different expectations for them. personally I think that's a load of crap.
Lea
and I don't give a damn about you. now we're even :)
look, in my school, CS is in the college of engineering. it is an engineering major. you have to take a lot of engineering courses. and, oddly enough, many of these courses are very well taught.
oddly enough, I am a female comp sci major. I like the major. I'm banging my head on spanning-tree optimization proofs right now, but it's a good major. I also like robotics. even control theory.
I also know many other people who like the major, at many different schools.
so just becasue the program at YOUR school doesn't fit YOUR needs and may be too difficult for YOU, that doesn't mean that even one other person shares that opinion. I think it goes both ways.
and btw, enrollment isn't down anywhere. there are more applicants than ever. there are just fewer of those of us of the female persuasion.
Lea
I would hardly describe Anita Borg as a "man hating feminist". nor would I describe her as wanting to bend the world to her will.
I am not denying in the least people's right to choose their profession, but I see nothing wrong to removing barriers that have nothing to do with ability that are placed in the way of certain students. these do exist, mistake me not. of course, letting in a "disadvantaged" student with lower qualifications is never the way to go...
Lea
the percentage of women in cs programs is declining
this has been happening for quite a while. and I seriously doubt that Anita Borg would stoop to playing with figures like that. if she had to, she wouldn't be concerned about it any more. capiche?
Lea
there are lots of embedded Java things coming out now that run embedded Java. remember that the original demo for the language (if I remember correctly) back when it was called Oak, was a bulky TV remote control.
Lea
Warning: the Polybot link will take you to a page that my Mozilla M13 will render and then turn blank grey. I have no idea why, but you might want to try Netscape instead. (or IE, if you're that sort of person)
"Linux is the greatest thing on the planet! It's perfect doodz! I love penguins! I hate Bill Gates and the MPAA"
"I love MS products and you commie pinko Linux users are just not being logical and thoughtful, however I have a real view on the issue, but you aren't going to listen to me"
"I know the moderators are going to mark me down for this, but I just have to say it..."
Posting early in a discussion or as a reply to a high moderation comment with no real content, but including something that no one can really disagree with (except for in one of the cases above)
many replies with the title "Karma whore"
Lea
actually, you might want to take a closer look at the injunction. EVEN if the only purpose of DeCSS was to watch movies under Linux (this is a paraphrase of part of the injunction) it is still illegal becasue it circumvents barriers to access, which is illegal under the DMCA.
pity, ain't it?
Lea
I go to a public university. my upper division classes are 200 people... (lower div? think about 2-3x that) there are about 2000 people in the EECS department.
:P
:)
can you imagine a 2000 person camping trip with EECS majors? and this doesn't even include the CS majors (~200) and the minors (too many to count)
the EECS honor society does it, but that's about the limit of people to take. logistics starts interferring in a BIG way after that.
I'm still stunned you have that many female CS majors. in the US, female CS admissions are actually DROPPING, according to a few studies I read. oh well... I'm used to hanging around guys anyways
although training those money/parent pressure types is (I suppose) good since they can be code gimps, but is a real pity in a way, since they're probably not going to get what they think they are -- most of that's reserved for those who love it!
lea
in many places, I've found what you say to be true. unfortunately, there are also a good number of places where that is not at all true. as I said in another post, I don't tend to see the hackers doing this -- but flip side of this statement is that many people who are doing this have quite a bit of power over you.
oh, and about the school thing -- I had the same experience. (this happened in Massachusetts, never seen anything this bad in California, where I live now) My teacher was EXACTLY the same way, and this was accepted, because "girls weren't as good at science" which is why they never got any A's. I did pull off an A by beating him over the head with it all semester ("um. Jeff and I have the EXACT same answer. why did I get no credit while he got full credit?") but the real debacle came when big science project came around. let it suffice it to say that I worked several hundred hours on mine, it was well documented, and actually uncovered something that the department of public works wasn't so happy about but did acnowledge (them big guys that work there are scary!). I got a B-. the girl sitting 2 seats away got an A on the project (stil a C in the class) for washing cloths with jelly stains in detergent the night before. I was, to put it midly, annoyed. I asked him about the grade. he said, and this is an exact quote --
"you made your results up"
hmm. that would explain the electronic balance I borrowed, as well as all the glassware, the litmus paper, the sample bottles, etc (yes, I brought the stuff back). and of course I just MADE UP all that documentation over a course of months. of course! it all makes sense now!
still makes me mad.
in any case, my point was that it does exist, and that in certain situations, you will probably be dinged for being female -- the only way to avoid this is being very good. thus, many of the not-so-good geek girls will not be around later. I've seen it happen.
Lea
ah! so THAT's how I'm going to pay for my DSL line! :)
it'll be just like the Palm ads, only with Thinkpads...
Lea
where the heck do you go to school? (since we are not giving out our email address, I'm just posting here for you)
:)
I go to UC Berkeley. the percentage of female EECS majors starts out at 17%. then it drops, which means that
a. women drop out at a proportionally higher rate than men
b. my classes are at least 80% guys
c. not to mention the EECS honor society
now, this seems to be pretty average -- CMU averages less, MIT more, but most programs seem to have these sorts of numbers, except for (of course) Wellesley College
personally, most of my friends have been guys for a long time, so I'm used to it, though some girls aren't. however, this does make it VERY inconvenient when looking for a roomate. (psst -- Berkeley girls, I'm going to have a nice apartment next semester on Northside, and I'm looking for a roomate. very good rent, considering it's berkeley)
Lea
hmm... never tried that one... I don't think it would work on any of the guys I've worked for -- they know me too well, and the damn PARC building is too cold!
and I believe the expression is "I'll buy that".
Lea
rule #1 of female hackers: if you actually stick around that long, you are good. not neccesary ubergeeken, but good.
:)
of course there are always a few exceptions, perhaps even including myself, but most of the women engineers I've known have been more than competent, becasue if they weren't, they would have gotten fed up years ago. (the best defense against sexist bastards is being good -- they have less to complain about)
Lea
oddly enough, most of the offensive comments I've gotten aren't from the hackers I know. they've instead come from educators, managers, and non-technical people. now I'm not going to say that they haven't hurt (despite my general disregard for the opinion of those I don't respect), but I live with it.
I've also never gotten the impression that I'm not wanted from a hacker. I have gotten it, however, from those same teachers who say "girls can't code" or "it's simply a fact that women aren't good at math. don't feel bad, it's a fact of life" or simply express their disapproval of me through grades that do not express the quality of my work, but rather the shape of my chromosones. I've met some real sexist bastards out there, at work, at conferences, in school, and in Real Life, but I've learned to ignore/avoid them, and concentrate on something else.
Not everyone can.
and that is the real pity -- I know girls who really had the hacker mentality, but either because they were simply not able to ignore those who don't (or shouldn't) matter, or becasue the disapproval came from people who should have known better, they went into other areas.
encouraging girls who aren't "the hacker type" won't do any good -- I have seen some of them in my CS classes, and they're struggling (along with the guys there simply becasue they heard CS majors all make a zillion dollars) becasue they simple don't get it. I suppose we will have to wait for the idiots to die off.
Lea
(OTOH, one larval hacker I knew gave me the highest compliment he could think of -- that I was "such a guy". gee. thanks.)
Marsokhod is also the name of the rover we bought from the Russians, which I worked on two summers ago at NASA/AMES. this one hasn't gone anywhere except for field testing -- except for in the nicely realistic 3d models of Mars on the nice SGI boxen.
in russian, Marsokhod just means "Mars rover," just like their lunar rovers, which were named "lunokhod" 1 and 2, so I'm not all that surprised it's not unique.
Lea
very simple -- more pictures... there are systems that are pretty good at inferring what they can't see, but for a high level of detail in spots you can't see from one angle, you really need to get them from another...
it's something you don't complain about in 2d... can't really complain about it in 3d either!
:)
Lea
NASA does it too. the mars rover Marsokhod has steroscopic vision, and some very nice SGI's make 3d models out of it that you can move Sojourner and other rovers around in...
Lea