They're completely different programs. Photoshop is the full blown graphics package aimed at professionals. I can barely get the damn thing to do anything. Paint Shop Pro is a very long running shareware program (recently purchased by Corel) that lets most people do all of the basics in terms of graphics. I use Paint Shop Pro on a daily basis. Photoshop costs $600+. Paint Shop Pro costs $60. Big difference.
In the case of a stuck keyboard the help desk script says "start a text editor (or BIOS) and see if it echoes". Not exactly rocket science and your argument, while somewhat valid, is highly exaggerated.
Not in the least. First off, most people, both help desk workers and consumers have no idea what "echo" means. Secondly, it's entirely possible that there is either A. a driver problem or B. a keylogger causing problems. So, I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. And once you get into that level of troubleshooting, you have inconsistency across the board in the help desk, and then you end up with a mess, with no consistent policies and procedures, and customers get pissed. You can't just run a massive multi-thousand person help desk with each person there doing their own thing. It's not possible. If it were, we'd see some 3rd party consumer-level support companies doing just that in the market, and by and large, we don't.
PC's are sold on such small margins, that HP and others simply can't risk taking back a perfectly functioning PC. If they did this on a large scale, prices would rise higher than Apple's! They have to be *sure* that they're taking back a non-functioning PC.
Using your logic, you can't provide tech support to anyone who has done anything at all with their computer. Installed a game? Oh, we don't know how that might affect the system - no support. Updated a driver? Oh, we don't know if thats compatible - no support. God forbid you installed one of the most common operating systems in existence...
You're right. That's the way it is. That's my point. The warranty stuff always says that in order to get warranty support, you have to jump through their hoops, otherwise they can't help you. They support the computer that they sent you, meaning every bit on that hard drive must be the same as it was when it left the factory. On consumer level machines, most companies mean it. I knew people at the help desk I worked at (one of the biggest manufacturers) that refused to do ANYTHING until the person calling wiped their entire hard drive, and restored from the image. And technically, that was not only fine as far as management was concerned, but it was preferred. That's why if I'm going to buy a machine that isn't going to be disposable (most workstations I buy are $200 refurbs, anyway), I'm going to buy a "Business" machine.
Of course, it still makes more sense to just ship a diagnostic CD with the system. It's cheap, it works with all operating systems, it's a good idea because it eliminates an entire test procedure for warranty support (the software can produce unique codes for problems by hashing unique problem codes with the serial number, and the resulting code can be verified by support personnel) and would likely save HP money.
You're right on that. You'd think that that would be a no-brainer. Hell, you could get rid of a LOT of help desk cost if the person could slap the disk in, tell HP what the error code was (or if they can get onto the Net, have the app send it itself), and HP would know what to do. I don't know why they don't do that, because even with a "script" (which in reality, they don't have... just a certain vague procedure), it can take LONG time to walk somebody through the steps needed to accurately diagnose what the problem is.
And yeah, business support is completely different. That's what usually makes an identical "business" machine so much more expensive. I just ran across this... I bought an old, off-lease Proliant a few years ago. I needed some help with parts (RAM, drive cages, etc.), and it was waaaay out of warranty. It was a long shot, but I was surprised as hell when they helped me with no questions asked.
Wow. OK. This isn't about them supporting the software. But it is a physical impossibility to do a thorough diagnostics without a standard software platform.
Maybe you should re-read that warranty of yours. And maybe get glasses.
While we're name calling, let me help you with your reading, Dipshit McGee. I can't exactly make this any clearer. I'll try to keep my summary as mono-syllabic as possible:
To get help, you must put on or not put on stuff (software) they say so that they can help you.
To enable HP to provide the best possible support and service during the Limited Warranty Period, you will be required to:
+ Verify configurations, load most recent firmware, install software patches, run HP diagnostics and utilities, and implement temporary procedures or workarounds provided by HP while HP works on permanent solutions.
In some cases, HP may require additional software such as drivers and agents to be loaded on your system in order to take advantage of these support solutions and capabilities.
+ Cooperate with HP in attempting to resolve the problem over the telephone. This may involve performing routine diagnostic procedures, installing additional software updates or patches, removing third-party options, and/or substituting options.
+ Maintain a procedure to reconstruct your lost or altered files, data, or programs that is not dependent on the HP Hardware Product under warranty support.
+ Perform additional tasks as defined within each type of warranty service listed below and any other actions that HP may reasonably request in order to best perform the warranty support.
As a computer user for over 20 years now, this always hasn't been the case. It's only been within the last several years, as manufacturers have to deal with millions of users with viruses and spyware calling technical support thinking they have a hardware problem, that warranties have been changed so that only specific operating systems are covered.
Actually, I worked as a phone monkey in 1991, supporting consumer PC's. It was like that then. If somebody called up saying that they had put OS/2 on their machine, and they thought their hard drive was toast, there was literally nothing we could do to help them until they got back to the original pre-load. I had a few nutcases scream at me about that, but there was literally nothing I could do. I was very good at what I did, but I didn't know OS/2 well enough to be able to troubleshoot through that, AND I wasn't even allowed to, even if I could.
No, HP's the one with the sense of entitlement. They agreed to support the hardware. They said nothing about Linux.
I'm sorry. I haven't read the warranty agreement for this person's PC. Do you have a copy of it you could post where it says that they'll support the hardware, and troubleshoot it with any software?
But I believe that the Magnuson-Moss warranty act protects this action - it had better, because this is a three thousand dollar laptop.
Wow. You're telling me that you bought a $3000 laptop that doesn't support the OS you want to use? That's smart. Really smart.
From a business procedure standpoint, they can't just trust people to send their computers back when they think they're broken, and then charge them appropriately (because you'd have to pay a lot more than shipping... processing, testing, etc.). People would scream holy hell when they sent their $600 laptop back to HP, it turned out to be fine, and then HP charged them $400 for handling, shipping, testing and diagnostics.
And how do you suggest the company dealing with every moron shipping their PC back to the company that doesn't know that you have to plug the power cord into the computer (true)? How about those people who use a mouse as a foot pedal (true)? How about those people who think that their computer is broken because they didn't plug their modem into a phone jack (true)? How about the people who touch the screen and just can't make their computer work (true)? How about those people who can't get to a particular web site and think that their computer is broken (true)? How do your propose that HP deals with a flood of incoming, perfectly fine PC's after they implement their brilliant "trust the consumer" warranty policy?
I sure as hell hope you are not a tech because if you can't read the article and understand the basics of her problem, you are a useless. Learn how to troubleshoot moron.
And how do you, oh wizard of PC troubleshooting, know that it's not a driver/OS problem? Are you psychic? Are you like a Liger, and have magical abilities? Do you have super x-ray vision, and you can see the electrons traveling from the space bar and getting stuck somewhere along the way? Please, I'm very curious to know how you are so sure. I worked at various help desks for years, and I never attained the omnipotent powers to detect hardware problems.
The machine should be booted with a diagnostic LiveCD for testing. You cannot assume that hardware problems are actually real problems until you test with a known good software platform. This argument is complete nonsense.
Well, most companies choose not to ship a separate LiveCD for testing. They ship the original hard drive pre-load. This argument is NOT nonsense, but that's a nice way of avoiding the crux of the problem. If you can't run through the steps using a known good software platform (the one that they tested thoroughly at the factory), then they can't know if you have a hardware or software problem.
It's also not HP's fault if this dufus can't read the warranty. As with most things in life: you get what you pay for. If HP could support any and all software configurations on consumer-grade products, do you really think you'd be able to get a $600 laptop? If you want to get business-level support, I'm sure that they have a warranty program that won't require a format and reinstall for troubleshooting.
I don't have a warranty sitting here in front of me, but I'll bet money that it says something along the lines of "we can only troubleshoot your machine with the original software installed".
Well, I can guarantee that every other major PC vendor does the same thing. IBM does. Dell does. Gateway does. Nobody selling cut-rate PC's is employing real trouble-shooting helpdesk people at $30+/hour that are familiar with every keyboard driver in existence. If you want to run Linux on a computer and don't want to have to format and re-install Windows to troubleshoot your hardware problems, then pay what you should pay, and buy one that comes with Linux and Linux support. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The expectation that anybody selling hardware can diagnose hardware issues regardless of the software is patently absurd.
So, how do you propose that HP handles a situation like this? Trust that the user is a Linux expert and trust them to say that their keyboard is fucked? Should they allow people to send back their hardware that they think is defective, and if it's not, bill the customer a fair rate for their trouble? That would work out really well, with every idiot on the planet who sends back their hardware because they fucked up a driver bitching about having to spend a few hundred bucks to have HP fix their problems.
Yes, you can install any softwre you'd like on your shiny new computer. Just don't expect somebody to try to troubleshoot your problem using custom software. As I have already said, you cannot accurately troubleshoot a hardware problem if the software is not consistent. It's impossible, because there's no telling how your special software is mucking with the hardware. It's a long shot, but as soon as you send that thing in, they've lost money on that sale. If they let every idiot ship back every computer they thought was "defective", then those $600 HP laptops would end up costing you more than an Apple would.
There's a possibility that Linux or whatever software you're using has screwed up hardware drivers. You can't accurately diagnose a problem if you have multiple things that have changed. That's like trying to run a scientific experiment with no control. It can't be done conclusively.
As somebody who worked at various helpdesks for a few years as a phone monkey, this is SOP with any company. You can't run through the troubleshooting scripts unless the software on the PC is exactly or very close to the initial load. Helpdesk people are not trained to solve problems, just go through the appropriate steps. So, if you want your warranty honored, suck it up and install Windows. You would have known this if you had read the fine print when you bought the damn thing. If you want a Linux notebook, then buy a Linux notebook. Talk about a sense of entitlement...
If you shop at Best Buy, you have no room to complain. How many of you Slashdotters bemoan the crappy service at places like Best Buy, but still shop there? Yeah, I thought so...
However, I don't think that most of the people are like that. I don't know about the USA, but I don't think that "price and price alone" would be true for say most of Europe.
In the US, I would have to say that most people can only think as far as price. Heck, we've got a Wal-Mart on every corner. If that alone doesn't say that this is a country full of stupid, stupid people, I don't know what does (OK, well, our fucked up government is more proof that the US is a country full of just plain dumb people). The US is all about bigger and cheaper, in all aspects of life, whether it's retail, housing, cars, food, etc.
So McSoft can make more money? No one but monopoly providers will benefit from this.
You couldn't be more wrong. The little guys would benefit from this. Right now, the stupid masses (Slashdotters included) tend to shop only based on price. Price and price alone. If you can get your widget for $0.01 cheaper online from Omni Mega Corp, you will. You wouldn't care if they were cheaper because they used children for labor. If this thing went through (it won't), people wouldn't be able to pay so much attention to price, and would shop based on convenience, service, and quality. I think it would make the country a much, much, much better place, but it'll never happen.
Why would Microsoft care? All of their stuff is already priced the same everywhere, anyway. Can you prove you're not a rabid anti-MS troll?
If you're working for a company too small for a "Security response team", and chances are, you are, then you've got to consider outsourcing. If a security breach happened, then obviously you don't have the expertise in house to handle security in house, and you're just putting out fires after they happen. It's time to start looking to outsource whatever it was that was broken. In this day and age, unless you're doing something very, very custom, there's really little value to having in house web serving, email, etc.
First thing to do is to pull the plug, and stop any further damage. After you're not connected to the Net, THEN you can figure out what happened and how to fix it
That's it! It's time to boycott Diebold by not using any of their products! Oh wait, then we can't vote... Nice "democracy" we have in place here, huh?
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They're completely different programs. Photoshop is the full blown graphics package aimed at professionals. I can barely get the damn thing to do anything. Paint Shop Pro is a very long running shareware program (recently purchased by Corel) that lets most people do all of the basics in terms of graphics. I use Paint Shop Pro on a daily basis. Photoshop costs $600+. Paint Shop Pro costs $60. Big difference.
In the case of a stuck keyboard the help desk script says "start a text editor (or BIOS) and see if it echoes". Not exactly rocket science and your argument, while somewhat valid, is highly exaggerated.
Not in the least. First off, most people, both help desk workers and consumers have no idea what "echo" means. Secondly, it's entirely possible that there is either A. a driver problem or B. a keylogger causing problems. So, I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. And once you get into that level of troubleshooting, you have inconsistency across the board in the help desk, and then you end up with a mess, with no consistent policies and procedures, and customers get pissed. You can't just run a massive multi-thousand person help desk with each person there doing their own thing. It's not possible. If it were, we'd see some 3rd party consumer-level support companies doing just that in the market, and by and large, we don't.
PC's are sold on such small margins, that HP and others simply can't risk taking back a perfectly functioning PC. If they did this on a large scale, prices would rise higher than Apple's! They have to be *sure* that they're taking back a non-functioning PC.
Using your logic, you can't provide tech support to anyone who has done anything at all with their computer. Installed a game? Oh, we don't know how that might affect the system - no support. Updated a driver? Oh, we don't know if thats compatible - no support. God forbid you installed one of the most common operating systems in existence...
You're right. That's the way it is. That's my point. The warranty stuff always says that in order to get warranty support, you have to jump through their hoops, otherwise they can't help you. They support the computer that they sent you, meaning every bit on that hard drive must be the same as it was when it left the factory. On consumer level machines, most companies mean it. I knew people at the help desk I worked at (one of the biggest manufacturers) that refused to do ANYTHING until the person calling wiped their entire hard drive, and restored from the image. And technically, that was not only fine as far as management was concerned, but it was preferred. That's why if I'm going to buy a machine that isn't going to be disposable (most workstations I buy are $200 refurbs, anyway), I'm going to buy a "Business" machine.
Of course, it still makes more sense to just ship a diagnostic CD with the system. It's cheap, it works with all operating systems, it's a good idea because it eliminates an entire test procedure for warranty support (the software can produce unique codes for problems by hashing unique problem codes with the serial number, and the resulting code can be verified by support personnel) and would likely save HP money.
You're right on that. You'd think that that would be a no-brainer. Hell, you could get rid of a LOT of help desk cost if the person could slap the disk in, tell HP what the error code was (or if they can get onto the Net, have the app send it itself), and HP would know what to do. I don't know why they don't do that, because even with a "script" (which in reality, they don't have... just a certain vague procedure), it can take LONG time to walk somebody through the steps needed to accurately diagnose what the problem is.
And yeah, business support is completely different. That's what usually makes an identical "business" machine so much more expensive. I just ran across this... I bought an old, off-lease Proliant a few years ago. I needed some help with parts (RAM, drive cages, etc.), and it was waaaay out of warranty. It was a long shot, but I was surprised as hell when they helped me with no questions asked.
I wasn't aware that MySpace was "cool". I thought it was "lame".
Wow. OK. This isn't about them supporting the software. But it is a physical impossibility to do a thorough diagnostics without a standard software platform.
Maybe you should re-read that warranty of yours. And maybe get glasses.
While we're name calling, let me help you with your reading, Dipshit McGee. I can't exactly make this any clearer. I'll try to keep my summary as mono-syllabic as possible:
To get help, you must put on or not put on stuff (software) they say so that they can help you.
To enable HP to provide the best possible support and service during the Limited Warranty Period, you will be required to:
+ Verify configurations, load most recent firmware, install software patches, run HP diagnostics and utilities, and implement temporary procedures or workarounds provided by HP while HP works on permanent solutions.
In some cases, HP may require additional software such as drivers and agents to be loaded on your system in order to take advantage of these support solutions and capabilities.
+ Cooperate with HP in attempting to resolve the problem over the telephone. This may involve performing routine diagnostic procedures, installing additional software updates or patches, removing third-party options, and/or substituting options.
+ Maintain a procedure to reconstruct your lost or altered files, data, or programs that is not dependent on the HP Hardware Product under warranty support.
+ Perform additional tasks as defined within each type of warranty service listed below and any other actions that HP may reasonably request in order to best perform the warranty support.
As a computer user for over 20 years now, this always hasn't been the case. It's only been within the last several years, as manufacturers have to deal with millions of users with viruses and spyware calling technical support thinking they have a hardware problem, that warranties have been changed so that only specific operating systems are covered.
Actually, I worked as a phone monkey in 1991, supporting consumer PC's. It was like that then. If somebody called up saying that they had put OS/2 on their machine, and they thought their hard drive was toast, there was literally nothing we could do to help them until they got back to the original pre-load. I had a few nutcases scream at me about that, but there was literally nothing I could do. I was very good at what I did, but I didn't know OS/2 well enough to be able to troubleshoot through that, AND I wasn't even allowed to, even if I could.
No, HP's the one with the sense of entitlement. They agreed to support the hardware. They said nothing about Linux.
I'm sorry. I haven't read the warranty agreement for this person's PC. Do you have a copy of it you could post where it says that they'll support the hardware, and troubleshoot it with any software?
But I believe that the Magnuson-Moss warranty act protects this action - it had better, because this is a three thousand dollar laptop.
Wow. You're telling me that you bought a $3000 laptop that doesn't support the OS you want to use? That's smart. Really smart.
From a business procedure standpoint, they can't just trust people to send their computers back when they think they're broken, and then charge them appropriately (because you'd have to pay a lot more than shipping... processing, testing, etc.). People would scream holy hell when they sent their $600 laptop back to HP, it turned out to be fine, and then HP charged them $400 for handling, shipping, testing and diagnostics.
And how do you suggest the company dealing with every moron shipping their PC back to the company that doesn't know that you have to plug the power cord into the computer (true)? How about those people who use a mouse as a foot pedal (true)? How about those people who think that their computer is broken because they didn't plug their modem into a phone jack (true)? How about the people who touch the screen and just can't make their computer work (true)? How about those people who can't get to a particular web site and think that their computer is broken (true)? How do your propose that HP deals with a flood of incoming, perfectly fine PC's after they implement their brilliant "trust the consumer" warranty policy?
I sure as hell hope you are not a tech because if you can't read the article and understand the basics of her problem, you are a useless. Learn how to troubleshoot moron.
And how do you, oh wizard of PC troubleshooting, know that it's not a driver/OS problem? Are you psychic? Are you like a Liger, and have magical abilities? Do you have super x-ray vision, and you can see the electrons traveling from the space bar and getting stuck somewhere along the way? Please, I'm very curious to know how you are so sure. I worked at various help desks for years, and I never attained the omnipotent powers to detect hardware problems.
The machine should be booted with a diagnostic LiveCD for testing. You cannot assume that hardware problems are actually real problems until you test with a known good software platform. This argument is complete nonsense.
Well, most companies choose not to ship a separate LiveCD for testing. They ship the original hard drive pre-load. This argument is NOT nonsense, but that's a nice way of avoiding the crux of the problem. If you can't run through the steps using a known good software platform (the one that they tested thoroughly at the factory), then they can't know if you have a hardware or software problem.
It's also not HP's fault if this dufus can't read the warranty. As with most things in life: you get what you pay for. If HP could support any and all software configurations on consumer-grade products, do you really think you'd be able to get a $600 laptop? If you want to get business-level support, I'm sure that they have a warranty program that won't require a format and reinstall for troubleshooting.
I don't have a warranty sitting here in front of me, but I'll bet money that it says something along the lines of "we can only troubleshoot your machine with the original software installed".
Well, I can guarantee that every other major PC vendor does the same thing. IBM does. Dell does. Gateway does. Nobody selling cut-rate PC's is employing real trouble-shooting helpdesk people at $30+/hour that are familiar with every keyboard driver in existence. If you want to run Linux on a computer and don't want to have to format and re-install Windows to troubleshoot your hardware problems, then pay what you should pay, and buy one that comes with Linux and Linux support. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The expectation that anybody selling hardware can diagnose hardware issues regardless of the software is patently absurd.
So, how do you propose that HP handles a situation like this? Trust that the user is a Linux expert and trust them to say that their keyboard is fucked? Should they allow people to send back their hardware that they think is defective, and if it's not, bill the customer a fair rate for their trouble? That would work out really well, with every idiot on the planet who sends back their hardware because they fucked up a driver bitching about having to spend a few hundred bucks to have HP fix their problems.
Yes, you can install any softwre you'd like on your shiny new computer. Just don't expect somebody to try to troubleshoot your problem using custom software. As I have already said, you cannot accurately troubleshoot a hardware problem if the software is not consistent. It's impossible, because there's no telling how your special software is mucking with the hardware. It's a long shot, but as soon as you send that thing in, they've lost money on that sale. If they let every idiot ship back every computer they thought was "defective", then those $600 HP laptops would end up costing you more than an Apple would.
There's a possibility that Linux or whatever software you're using has screwed up hardware drivers. You can't accurately diagnose a problem if you have multiple things that have changed. That's like trying to run a scientific experiment with no control. It can't be done conclusively.
As somebody who worked at various helpdesks for a few years as a phone monkey, this is SOP with any company. You can't run through the troubleshooting scripts unless the software on the PC is exactly or very close to the initial load. Helpdesk people are not trained to solve problems, just go through the appropriate steps. So, if you want your warranty honored, suck it up and install Windows. You would have known this if you had read the fine print when you bought the damn thing. If you want a Linux notebook, then buy a Linux notebook. Talk about a sense of entitlement...
If you shop at Best Buy, you have no room to complain. How many of you Slashdotters bemoan the crappy service at places like Best Buy, but still shop there? Yeah, I thought so...
You're completely right.
However, I don't think that most of the people are like that. I don't know about the USA, but I don't think that "price and price alone" would be true for say most of Europe.
In the US, I would have to say that most people can only think as far as price. Heck, we've got a Wal-Mart on every corner. If that alone doesn't say that this is a country full of stupid, stupid people, I don't know what does (OK, well, our fucked up government is more proof that the US is a country full of just plain dumb people). The US is all about bigger and cheaper, in all aspects of life, whether it's retail, housing, cars, food, etc.
Windows right now is working just fine. It runs many, many, many businesses, and 90% of the desktops on the planet. What is Windows not "delivering"?
So McSoft can make more money? No one but monopoly providers will benefit from this.
You couldn't be more wrong. The little guys would benefit from this. Right now, the stupid masses (Slashdotters included) tend to shop only based on price. Price and price alone. If you can get your widget for $0.01 cheaper online from Omni Mega Corp, you will. You wouldn't care if they were cheaper because they used children for labor. If this thing went through (it won't), people wouldn't be able to pay so much attention to price, and would shop based on convenience, service, and quality. I think it would make the country a much, much, much better place, but it'll never happen.
Why would Microsoft care? All of their stuff is already priced the same everywhere, anyway. Can you prove you're not a rabid anti-MS troll?
If you're working for a company too small for a "Security response team", and chances are, you are, then you've got to consider outsourcing. If a security breach happened, then obviously you don't have the expertise in house to handle security in house, and you're just putting out fires after they happen. It's time to start looking to outsource whatever it was that was broken. In this day and age, unless you're doing something very, very custom, there's really little value to having in house web serving, email, etc.
First thing to do is to pull the plug, and stop any further damage. After you're not connected to the Net, THEN you can figure out what happened and how to fix it
That's it! It's time to boycott Diebold by not using any of their products! Oh wait, then we can't vote... Nice "democracy" we have in place here, huh?