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What to Do When Your Security is Breached

ancientribe writes "When you've got a full-blown security breach on your hands, what do you do? If you've been smart, you'll already have a computer security incident response team — and a plan — in place. But many companies are too resource-strapped to have a full-blown, fully-tested incident response strategy. DarkReading has some tips on what to do — and what not to do."

177 comments

  1. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Next time, run OpenBSD. If you don't, expect to be pwn3d.

    1. Re:Well... by beckerist · · Score: 1

      Just so you all know, this is really only applicable to big business. Heck, their first suggestion:
      1. Assemble an incident response team
      suggests to "assemble a legal team." Personally, I'm not all for calling my lawyer for a few c1al15 and v14gr4 popups.

  2. Do what the government does. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    When your security is breached by a handful of thugs you must immediately run out and attack a random neighbor's house.

    1. Re:Do what the government does. by StewedSquirrel · · Score: 1

      Off topic, but funny.

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
  3. The problem is by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Insightful

    many IT managers decide to purchase Microsoft so when something happens, well, "we couldn't go wrong with Microsoft" or "it's Microsoft, not us". Unfortunately, that's the extent of their plan, after pulling the network cable, i.e. cover their asses.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    1. Re:The problem is by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bingo.

      I would further add, that they chose Microsoft because Microsoft promises lower TCO through lowered administrative (geek) needs.

      I suppose that most Microsoft shops wouldn't even know if they were breached, because most breaches don't actually desctroy data, they just steal it.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:The problem is by cptgrudge · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I suppose that most Microsoft shops wouldn't even know if they were breached, because most breaches don't actually desctroy data, they just steal it.

      It's so much worse than that.

      Back in my younger days at a summer tech job for a US school district, I found that an NT4 SQL server had been compromised a group of people. They were based out of France, I think, from what I could tell from the IP addresses, and had actually set themselves up quite nicely, with organized file structure and their own IRC and FTP server running on it. They were using it as a repository to store files and a few French movies. After I told the sysadmin in place at the time about it, I was stunned when he said, "Well, are they hurting anything?"

      After some persuasion on my part, he rebuilt the server. Three times. After it kept getting hacked by the same people.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    3. Re:The problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were based out of France...

      Hmm... you know who else is based out of France? Microsoft. They're based in Washington State, which is way out of France. Really makes you wonder, doesn't it!

    4. Re:The problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Back in my younger days at a summer tech job for a US school district, I found that an NT4 SQL server had been compromised a group of people. They were based out of France, I think, from what I could tell from the IP addresses, and had actually set themselves up quite nicely, with organized file structure and their own IRC and FTP server running on it. They were using it as a repository to store files and a few French movies. After I told the sysadmin in place at the time about it, I was stunned when he said, "Well, are they hurting anything?"

      After some persuasion on my part, he rebuilt the server. Three times. After it kept getting hacked by the same people.


      Seems to me the problem was an incompetent system administrator and not the OS.
    5. Re:The problem is by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1

      Seems to me the OS made it too easy to change the defaults to something less secure. At the very least, you should have to read a man page to figure out how to turn off your security so thoroughly. Or is it just that the OS was insecure by default?

    6. Re:The problem is by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      My boss hired that guy.

      In our case, the hackers were storing "Snakes on a Place" in various Nordic languages. Who compromises a server and uploads Snakes on a friggin' Plane????

    7. Re:The problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amed, I've sent out the details to the other cell members. The explosives just need to be transported.

      I'll see you in a few days, and then we can kill those infidel pigs!

    8. Re:The problem is by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It was probably neither.

      I know some IRC groups were the members get their company servers to provide dumps and bots. And of course non one ever knows it is going on.

      So I'm going to guess that if they went through the trouble of hacking it three more times, it was probably an inside job to some extent.

    9. Re:The problem is by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      I would further add, that they chose Microsoft because Microsoft promises lower TCO through lowered administrative (geek) needs.

      In defense of Microsoft (I usually bash them) I will say the OS does have many features that are rarely deployed that can dramatically improve security. But here in is the problem, you can take someone from McDonald's on Monday and be a senior administrator by Friday and not even know these features exist. Because you work for $25K less per year, management loves this. Which is really the issue, management is too cheap to do it right and gets what they paid for. If security really matered to management they would have administrators who knew these features and have them fully enabled and monitored.

      I suppose that most Microsoft shops wouldn't even know if they were breached, because most breaches don't actually desctroy data, they just steal it.

      You're very correct. I doubt most Microsoft shops even know they have been hacked unless the hacker does something that causes issues, like a warz site eating up the bandwidth. They might warz it on the way out after they got what they wanted. A hacker keeping a low profile selectively taking proprietary secrets, credit cards and other identity information is certain to go unnoticed. After all, who even looks at Windows log files? It isn't even centralized without an OS refit either compounding the management issues. Windows is a PC operating system, PC stands for personal computer, or public computer but certainly not easy to manage securely in large scale.

    10. Re:The problem is by cptgrudge · · Score: 1

      So I'm going to guess that if they went through the trouble of hacking it three more times, it was probably an inside job to some extent.

      I captured the traffic with a network sniffer. Specifically, the IRC traffic sent in cleartext, and they were all chatting in French. So unless they were local students routing traffic through French IP addresses and all speaking in French, I kinda assumed they were in France.

      But the incompetent admin is probably more to blame. This all happened when there was no firewall in place and every computer had a public IP. I had to explain why a firewall and NAT was necessary. It was a hacker/cracker playground.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    11. Re:The problem is by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      That they "laid off" (fired) the old admin, so that they could hire "someone with a more recent skillset" (younger, lower paid). And the new guy actually has a "degree" from a "technical school" so he must be more aware of security issues, right?

      Oops, the new admin has personal issues that are preventing him from fully concentrating on his job (ADHD), let's call in the "old guy" as a contractor for a while so he can fix this mess.

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
  4. What to Do When Your Security is Breached? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Complain! Call the help desk!

    1. Re: What to Do When Your Security is Breached? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Call helpdesk... hold it, I am the helpdesk, security and system administrator.

    2. Re: What to Do When Your Security is Breached? by martin_henry · · Score: 1

      ...and if they won't help, grab your stapler and run away.

      --
      www.purevolume.com/martyd
  5. What to do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Grab your ankles, and kiss your ass goodbye!

    That'll learn you not to use Microsoft again.

  6. Dispatch the Tie Fighters by klenwell · · Score: 5, Funny

    But since ours is a relatively small company, we went with the open-source Thai fighters.

    --
    Innovation makes enemies of all those who prospered under the old regime... -- Machiavelli
    1. Re:Dispatch the Tie Fighters by Thanster · · Score: 1

      So, is that the Empires finest or those deadly Bangkok Chickboys? *confused*

  7. How about... by had3l · · Score: 2, Funny

    Run from side to side?

    1. Re:How about... by FrostedChaos · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, you idiot! Reroute warp core power to the hull shields!

      Then reverse the polarity FTW!

      --
      "Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental." -Slashdot
  8. my plan by trybywrench · · Score: 5, Funny

    Kent Brockman: So, professor, would you say it's time for everyone to panic?
    Professor: Yes I would, Kent.

    --
    I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
  9. I love these content-free articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    what to do if you burn your hand:

    1. first, remove your hand from the burning stove.
    2. use ice to cool your hand
    3. seek medical attention.

    wow. Thanks. I never would have figured any of that out on my own.

    1. Re:I love these content-free articles by Kandenshi · · Score: 5, Funny

      eh? Your steps are a bit off :P Don't use ice to cool a burn, you're likely to cause further damage. Just use running cold water to cool things down. I'd also suggest tossing a bit of sterile gauze over it too, if things are more than mildly bad.

      "To treat a minor burn, run cool water over the area of the burn or soak it in a cool water bath (not ice water). Keep the area submerged for at least 5 minutes."
      http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/presentati ons/100213_1.htm

      "Flush the burn with cool running water or apply cold- water compresses (a wet towel or handkerchief) until the pain lessens. Do not use ice or ice water, which can cause more damage to the tissues."
      http://www.personalmd.com/healthtopics/crs/burn1.h tm

      *emphasis mine*

    2. Re:I love these content-free articles by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      You forgot

      4. ???
      5. Profit!

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    3. Re:I love these content-free articles by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Based on the other (correct) replies about not using ice to cool your burnt hand we can conclude 2 things:

      1) You apparently shouldn't rely on what you 'figured out on your own'.
      2) In addition to getting a plan for a security breach you should also look at getting some help with your first aid plan too.

    4. Re:I love these content-free articles by FMota91 · · Score: 1

      In fact, 4 is likely to be "Sue your employer for buying computers that are capable of burning you, especially when exposed to a security breach."

      Unless you live in other parts of the world where suing isn't so easy (i.e. Not America), in which case you were spot-on.
      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C1 bottles of beer on the wall. Take one down, pass it round... Oh, umm...
    5. Re:I love these content-free articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thoughts exactly.

    6. Re:I love these content-free articles by Joebert · · Score: 0, Troll

      Two questions.
      1) If sterile water is unavailable, will non-sterile water work well enough ?
      2) Is non-sterile gauze cheaper than sterile gauze, & if so, where can it be purchased ?

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    7. Re:I love these content-free articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      non-sterile gauze is any gauze that has had its packaging compromised (or opened). So, it was sterile until such time as you opened it. Now, if you really want to buy non-sterile gauze - open it before you pay for it. The price won't be any different though.

    8. Re:I love these content-free articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two questions.
      1) If sterile water is unavailable, will non-sterile water work well enough ?
      Sure, if you want an infection ;) (Chlorinated) Tap water is fine.

      2) Is non-sterile gauze cheaper than sterile gauze, & if so, where can it be purchased ?
      most likely, but see above

    9. Re:I love these content-free articles by Mikkeles · · Score: 1
      'If sterile water is unavailable, will non-sterile water work well enough ?'

      Yes in cooling the burn, but may cause infection if the skin is burnt off.

      'Is non-sterile gauze cheaper than sterile gauze, & if so, where can it be purchased ?'

      In grocery and kitchen supply stores under the name "cheesecloth".

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    10. Re:I love these content-free articles by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's nothing wrong with using ice, as long as you don't leave it on there long enough for your skin to freeze. Again, common sense.

    11. Re:I love these content-free articles by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      It's worth mentioning that those are idiot-proof guides, for people who need to read about what to do when burned. There's nothing wrong with using ice as long as you avoid prolonged exposure. Since the definition of "prolonged" is inveresely proportional to tissue damage, it's simpler to just tell people not to do it, especially from a liability standpoint.

    12. Re:I love these content-free articles by stuboogie · · Score: 1

      You can get all the non-sterile gauze you want for FREE!!!

      Just go to the nearest hospital and look for the RED bins. There should be plenty!!! They also have free needles in case you need any of those.

    13. Re:I love these content-free articles by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      It would likely depend on how bad the burn is and were it is at and a couple of other things.

      I used to work the ovens and the char broiler when doing my restaurant tour coming out of high school. This is just personal observation but a lot of times when I would get burnt, the only the best thing I could do is just put some gauze around it to try and shield the heat of the broiler and ovens from it. When I used ice or running water it would blister and I would have two more stages of dealing with it. One were you had to protect the blister from popping (and it was sensitive to heat and pressure) then another when the blister popped and the skin peeled away exposing a real sensitive part of skin underneath that was just as bad as the initial burn. If I didn't use water or ice or any creams or ointments, the burn wouldn't blister slightly the fist day, go down the next and then I would be on the hurt like hell stage much less of the time i saw with using something.

      That being said, I have some noticeable scares from burns one my arms and hands that happened over 15 years ago. It's been too long to remember which one got water or ice or nothing. I distinctly remember that using nothing would leave you with issues for about a week and using something would drag it out to two or three weeks or longer. I avoid using anything if all possible.

      Of course after a few minutes when all the initial WTF pain went away, I would clean them and all. I just didn't run cold water or ice over them or use any creams if it could be helped.

    14. Re:I love these content-free articles by amcdiarmid · · Score: 1

      No, No,

      The voice of user experience has clearly told me that you should use Dry Ice to cool off your hand. This way, you don't have to worry about infections caused by something in the water...

    15. Re:I love these content-free articles by Hellkitten · · Score: 1

      1) If sterile water is unavailable, will non-sterile water work well enough ?

      Yes, for some definition of well enough. It's better than not cooling the wound. But in all cases the burn should be treated with some kind of antiseptic before beeing dressed. Any third degree burn, or second degree of significant size should be treated by a medical professional. If in doubt get help.

      2) Is non-sterile gauze cheaper than sterile gauze, & if so, where can it be purchased ?

      Yes it is. It is commonly only used for cleaning of wounds (after beeing soked in an antiseptic) or the outer dressing of a wound (keeping the sterile gauze in place). No idea where to buy unless they have it for sale if you can't find it at a drugstore wherever you live. The price difference isn't that big (here) so you might as well buy the sterile kind. Sterile gauze should be treated as non-sterile after beeing stored for some time (check the packaging for a "use by date")

      I am not a medical professional but I've had my share of cuts and burns without ever getting any dangerous infection.

      And finally whoever modded you troll should se if their gangrene has affected their brain.

      --
      - We are the slashdot. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be moderated -
  10. Wrong fish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Silly trout -- security is for blowfish!

    1. Re:Wrong fish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hootie, is that you?

  11. Pull the plug!! by DogDude · · Score: 1

    First thing to do is to pull the plug, and stop any further damage. After you're not connected to the Net, THEN you can figure out what happened and how to fix it

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Pull the plug!! by tygerstripes · · Score: 1
      For the most-part (ie where you're a company, and investigators from the police, FBI or insurance company will be involved), you're dead right. Just kill the power.

      After that: DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING.

      You'll preserve everything on the hard-drive exactly as-is (this server IS logging everything, right?) without any shut-down scripts or anything else. Then the drives can be imaged in such a way as to be permissible as evidence. Sadly it's often the case in serious breaches that well-meaning, talented and curious DBAs will try to compile the logs, do some sniffing on the drives or (god forbid) just plain wipe everything and reboot. Most of these actions will make an investigator's job harder and, if they do find anything useful for prosecution, will most likely render the evidence useless in a court.

      If someone with a doctorate in forensic criminal investigation (or whatever) discovers a body, he may be very tempted to do a bit of fiddling and such, but should know full well that doing so invalidates the evidence and ruins the investigative process. So should it be for system administrators.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
  12. A plan may not apply by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd note that even if your company has a response plan, you may find it either completely useless or so general that it doesn't provide any help. Look at the article's point #1: it's almost nothing but "If $X, you may need $Y.". And it's far from complete. That's going to be a flaw in any security response plan: it's likely to not address the actual problem you face. Problems that you've thought of tend to get caught earlier before they turn into full-blown incidents, it's the ones nobody thought of that are most likely to bite you badly and it's exactly those that a plan won't cover. About the only part of the plan that'll be guaranteed to be useful is the part explaining what parts of the system are responsible for what and how to lock them down to preserve the evidence while you figure out where the breach is and what you need to do next. Beyond that you're into a twisty maze of little possibilities, all almost but not quite completely unlike each other, and what you need most isn't a plan but someone with enough Clue to analyze the situation and formulate a plan to fit it on the fly.

  13. easy by mastershake_phd · · Score: 1

    Switch to a paper only office, and an air-tube network.

    1. Re:easy by DarkAxi0m · · Score: 1

      Tubes man... its always about the freaking tube with you man, isn't it !! ...

      i guess then you'll never have to fear a hacker... just your plumber?

    2. Re:easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would you detect a man in the middle attack?

      There could be a thousand speed reading monkeys whose sole task is to intercept letters, speed read them and copy them and put them into similar envelopes, sitting at the end of a little "junction" the "ventilation engineer" kindly installed.

  14. part of a larger contingency plan by davidwr · · Score: 5, Funny

    All businesses should have contingency plans for all disasters.

    For most disasters, whether it's an IT disaster, a natural disaster, a non-natural physical disaster like a fire, a real or frivolous patent lawsuit, employee or company malfeasance, or what not, you need a plan.

    For "terminal" disasters, like a nuclear blast that kills all employees and destroys all company assets, folding up shop may be the right business plan. For small businesses, extreme disasters like car wreck that kills all the employees might also be terminal in a slightly less catastrophic way. In these cases, at least you can plan to sell your business or its assets to another entity, so your customers have continuity.

    Basically, divide your disasters into categories, and plan and insure accordingly:
    0) end of the world, big asteroid or global thermonuclear war
    1) major catastrophe, we are dead, forget about the customer, nuclear detonation event
    2) end of the company, save the customer, Enron
    3) end of the management team, save the company, MCI
    4) we can recover from this but it's gonna hurt a lot, Vonage(?)
    5) it's a flesh wound, CEO dies of heart attack
    6) mosquito bite, SCO sues IBM
    7) what? something happened? I didn't even notice, {if I had an example it would be #6}

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      When we get nuked I think its ok to just screw the business and work on saving your own ass.

    2. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by crabpeople · · Score: 1

      "For "terminal" disasters, like a nuclear blast ... at least you can plan to sell your business or its assets to another entity, so your customers have continuity."
      Im gonna go out on a limb here and say if I have to deal with a nuclear blast, my customers are going to pretty low there on the list of things that im worried about the continuity of...

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    3. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by toadlife · · Score: 1

      For most companies, data breaches usually fall into the #7 slot.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    4. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by Tom · · Score: 1

      All businesses should have contingency plans for all disasters. When it comes to IT security, the most popular contingency plan is "pretend it didn't happen".

      More often than not, applied internally as well as externally.
      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    5. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, you know, when the IDS is a series of letters for excessive bandwidth usage and RIAA take down notices, you gotta be willing to ignore some stuff.

    6. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      7) what? something happened? I didn't even notice, {if I had an example it would be #6}

      How about "Geeks on SlashDot flamed our company"?

    7. Re:part of a larger contingency plan by curunir · · Score: 1

      Your last name isn't Bauer, is it?

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
  15. Outsource by DogDude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're working for a company too small for a "Security response team", and chances are, you are, then you've got to consider outsourcing. If a security breach happened, then obviously you don't have the expertise in house to handle security in house, and you're just putting out fires after they happen. It's time to start looking to outsource whatever it was that was broken. In this day and age, unless you're doing something very, very custom, there's really little value to having in house web serving, email, etc.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Outsource by crabpeople · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "you've got to consider outsourcing"
      Ah yes outsourcing. All the security of a 3rd world countries people and laws...

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    2. Re:Outsource by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 1

      Yes, because outsourcing is only to Indo-Afrikastan. You could never possibly outsource to a data center in St. Louis where they have a staff of say 90 really good administrators to handle about 700 machines.

  16. If you're smart... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

    You'll use this link. "Print buttons" are your friend, unless you really like 2 pages of content being spread over 10 pages.

    --
  17. Clearly by eviloverlordx · · Score: 5, Funny

    The appropriate response is to shoot the lieutenant responsible for security. Then promote another ambitious, yet expendable underling to his/her place. Come on - this is Evil Overlord 101-level stuff.

    --
    'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
  18. Disconnect and reinstall... by FirstTimeCaller · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's been a long time (thankfully) since I've had to deal with this. But I'd echo the article about disconnecting from the net to eliminate further attacks. Then I'd remove the drive and save it for forensics -- replacements are cheap (I'm assuming a small business doesn't have expensive RAID setups). Assume that everything has been compromised and restore from a backup prior to the intrusion (hopefully you can tell when that was).

    Oh, and keep your clocks synchronized. This will help if you need to trace intrusions across systems.

    --
    Wanted: witty unique signature. Must be willing to relocate.
  19. Insightful or Funny You Chose by mpapet · · Score: 1

    Right on.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Insightful or Funny You Chose by Bearhouse · · Score: 1

      Right. Kick it up guys.

  20. Sometimes yes sometimes no by davidwr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not sure if you meant the RJ45 or the AC plug.

    In some cases, you may NOT want to pull the plug.

    Sometimes proper forensic evaluation requires both plugs remain attached until the experts are done.

    As the article said though, sometimes you have to balance continuing harm with the need to preserve the crime scene.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Sometimes yes sometimes no by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Well after running 'netstat -pav' its reasonably safe to pull the R45 plug since you have a record of any connections incoming.
      After that logs of stuff like 'ps aux' and syslog along with a backup of the hard drives allows you to pull the AC plug.

    2. Re:Sometimes yes sometimes no by hurfy · · Score: 1

      Assuming, of course you are big enough for any experts to give a damn.

      But that was a given I suppose since we are assembling a team :(
      I would like to know what us cowboys should be doing....

      Preserve what? No one is gonna care who stole what from us. Hell, someone stole a few grand worth of actual merchendise and we had the who and the where and noone gave a damn then. Even if we decided to spend all our money to find out who...then what? Odds are they are offshore anyways and noone could do anything even if they wanted to for some reason.

    3. Re:Sometimes yes sometimes no by eli+pabst · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Preserve what? No one is gonna care who stole what from us.

      You can preserve the evidence of how you got owned, like the means of entry, how privilege elevation was performed, what was done on the system. It's not uncommon for crackers to upload a binary, execute it so that it's running in memory and then delete the binary file, so if the bash_history was wiped you may never find any evidence it was even there unless you looked at the system while it was running. Figuring out how you were compromised may help you prevent it from happening again.

  21. Don't panic! by mandelbr0t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've dealt with a couple security breaches in the past. It's never easy, and there's always that feeling of being violated as well. The important thing is to not lose your head about it, or you'll make mistakes that could lead to another or worse breach.

    First, find out the extent of the breach. Analyze your log files. Find out what time it happened. Find out who was logged in at the time, and find out any log messages from any system services that can help you figure out what the problem was. If you can't figure out what the scope of the breach was with a high level of confidence, then you have to assume the worst: the entire network is compromised.

    Second, salvage what you can. Again, be very careful about doing this. Hopefully you have a backup somewhere which would allow you to avoid or shorten this step as much as possible. In essence, do what you have to do to the compromised machine to avoid losing work, but always be concious of the fact that the machine is compromised, and may be transmitting or recording keylogs or other sensitive information. If possible, disconnect the compromised machines from the Internet and isolate it from the rest of your LAN.

    Third, plan for the future. How would this breach be avoided in the future? Was it an OS problem? If so, then maybe you need to install OpenBSD instead. Was it a problem with a particular package you were using? Choose a different package. Can you configure your firewall or server to prevent or limit the abuse that caused the problem in the first place (e.g. fail2ban to deal with SSH phishing attacks) or install monitoring software to alert you of a problem (e.g. an IDS like Snort)? Do your users need further training? Does your password policy allow weak passwords? Etc.

    Finally, take a deep breath. Unless you've been totally negligent in your job, there wasn't much you could do to prevent it. Don't worry about the fact that you don't have enough to go to the police; most Network Administrators don't have the hardware, training or certification to present evidence in a courtroom anyway. If you can go to the cops, then bully for you! Make that black-hat asshole pay!

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
  22. Script of comments to come... by FMota91 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Windows XP: What's security?
    Windows Vista: This wouldn't happen to me anyway, I'm the Most Secure OS (tm)!
    Mac OS X: I never get any viruses!
    GNU/Linux: Me neither!
    Windows Vista User Access Control: You are entering a conversation with flaming probability 89%. Cancel or Allow?
    Windows Vista: [to Vista UAC] Allow. [to the others] That's because nobody uses you!
    GNU/Linux: Oh yeah...
    Mac OS X: That's because only elite people use Mac OS X. Because you're not worth them.
    GNU/Linux: Wait! Windows Vista, you lie! Lot's of people from all around the world use me! In fact, they even improve me! That's because we believe that...
    Mac OS X and Windows Vista: [at the same time] Shut up Linux.
    Windows Vista: [to Mac OS X] But anyway, even if there were a "Security Breach", it's not like they'd be able to mess anything up!
    Mac OS X: That's because it's impossible to do anything in Vista.
    Windows Vista User Access Control: [to Vista] You are coming to a sad realization... Cancel or Allow?

    NB: the views or opinions expressed by any of the characters do not necessarily resemble the views or opinions of the author.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C1 bottles of beer on the wall. Take one down, pass it round... Oh, umm...
    1. Re:Script of comments to come... by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      NetWare walks into the room, looks at them flagelating themselves and proclaiming. Scratches its head, shakes it in dismay and walks out the door. Walks back to its happy server, happily serving its users needs and will run that way for the next 10 years, without a service pack.

      As I ponder life as I know it, I wonder why people do not see the simplicity and the power of NetWare. It does what it is designed to do, it does it very well and it does it very very fast.

      NetWare has never let me down, its never been hacked from the outside world, no one has ever stolen its password file or its data. It swims through the Internet sleek and shiny with barely a worry about being hacked. It's secure by design, it's secure by default, it's just secure.

      Idiots who couldn't find their ass with both hands if they didn't have a pretty picture of it and a mouse, is what were are reduced to deal with.

      I think its time to be a plumber, I will make more money and work less hours.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
  23. Congratulations, you just killed your forensics by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Maybe.

    Let's assume the bad guys never stored any forensically useful stuff on disk in clear text. Peter Gutmann has a few things to say about recovering useful information from RAM chips.

    The question for the real world is:
    Is it worth going this far just to catch the bad guys?

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  24. Got done.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 4, Informative

    I got done reading this, and it's pretty dumb.

    "If you're a big company, you already have a security team. If not, hire one." DOH!

    That smacks me of the same kind of response from slashdot about legal advice... "Im being sued by the RIAA, should I ignore it?"

    Still, why not gander around and see what the the real security experts and such say about such matters:

    The Coroners Toolkit Tools for Unix

    Nagios detection suite

    Honeypots for 'sticking hackers'

    And there's the wonderful tools in the Linux kernel for bridges and such that can be made to monitor data as if there was no computer there at all. Also, PF in FreeBSD can route and filter based on much more criteria than Linux netfilter can (like via OS).

    You should have a secure layout of your network along with a respectable sensor network. The Sensornet should be separate from the general network.

    If you already work in IT, these things should be obvious, as it is the similar measures required for data recovery on non-hack problems.

    --
    1. Re:Got done.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Filtering by OS doesn't make any sense because it's trivial to fake. What's the point exactly?

    2. Re:Got done.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      ---Filtering by OS doesn't make any sense because it's trivial to fake. What's the point exactly?

      Ok. I have a Windows network, a Linux network and a MacOS network. I can prevent machines from migrating networks. If they attempt to, they will be isolated via rather nasty tools (arp corruption tools).

      Also, it is NOT rather easy to fake network signatures from consistent data streams. It's easy to fake a NMAP scan though.

      The key is I can segregate networks and I have the technological means to do so without me actively watching.

      --
  25. not necessarily by davidwr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are 0wned, don't trust anything the box self-reports.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:not necessarily by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aye. Second part of that:

      If you are big enough to have an Incident Response Team worth talking about (ie, more than the single IT guy), you should have seperate security analysis/reporting ability beyond what the box will report.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    2. Re:not necessarily by dintech · · Score: 1

      Exactly. When you pull the plug the box might STILL BE ON! :O

  26. Experts say hire experts by TheLastUser · · Score: 1

    "external consultants or forensics experts -- should be selected prior to an event, experts say."

    What a shocker...

  27. er, don't do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    According to my first aid training, never ever use ice. It can cause further tissue damage. For small burns, run large amounts of cool but not cold water over the burn. Larger burns, soak a CLEAN towel in cool water.

    From personal experience (unfortunately the personal experience came before the Red Cross training), running cold water over a burn causes excruciating pain about 30 seconds after the cold source is removed. My theory is that the cold constricts blood flow, and after you remove the cold source, the blood starts coming back through the damaged tissue area and oh my god does it hurt.

  28. OpenBSD by davidwr · · Score: 4, Funny

    OpenBSD: [walks into room, looks around, walks out, shaking his head not understanding why everyone can't be as secure as he is]

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:OpenBSD by FMota91 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mac OS X: Not another Linux... the geeks are out-reproducing us!
      OpenBSD: [angry] I'm not Linux you freak! Why is everyone always mixing us up?! [leaves room in tantrum]

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C1 bottles of beer on the wall. Take one down, pass it round... Oh, umm...
    2. Re:OpenBSD by oyenstikker · · Score: 4, Funny

      Windows Vista: Hey, I thought that guy was dead.
      Mac OS X: No no, that was OS/2 that died. Remember? You got his kidneys.

      --
      The masses are the crack whores of religion.
    3. Re:OpenBSD by waldonova · · Score: 1

      Bullocks! OpenBSD would only hear a conversation on port 22.

      "No lookie for key, no audience for you."

  29. Ahhh... easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I call Microsoft support.

  30. Except that by winkydink · · Score: 1

    the article is only 2, not 10 pages long to begin with.

    --

    "I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey

    1. Re:Except that by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I found that out when I read it.

      Still, it's pointless to have people who are "supposed to be tech smart" here posting news sites and aggregators that have 5-10 pages of stuff that 1 page would suffice.

      --
  31. Huh? Reinstall ofcourse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It boggles me that so many people come up with so many "solutions" yet hardly anyone comes up with the really important step to take: you backup your data, wipe the HD clean and re-install your OS. No matter what you use; be it Linux, Solaris, BSD.

    1. Re:Huh? Reinstall ofcourse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they're referring to company-wide systems, rather than a single desktop machine. Desktop machines, servers, computers in local and remote offices, who knows how many are affected. How long can the business afford to be completely offline?

    2. Re:Huh? Reinstall ofcourse! by js290 · · Score: 1

      Not so far from the truth... Names have been removed to protect the guilty.

      ---------- Forwarded message ----------

      COMING SOON

      Linux admin position... As some of you may know, I was unceremoniously relieved
      of my duties at my department. It was completely my fault for misreading and
      misplaying the situation there. I didn't know how to pick my battles,
      and I didn't know how to keep my mouth shut. In that sense, I
      deserved what was coming.

      KATRINA/NEW ORLEANS

      Some of you may still be unclear what happened at my department back in July 2005.
      Simply, all the critical Windows servers were compromised by IRC bots. How did I
      know this? Shortly before the malicious hackers took them down, I noticed on one
      of my linux servers that iptables logs showed at least one of the Windows servers
      were doing port scans. I've seen such traffic at my previous job where I spent
      some time monitoring the wild, wild west of academic networks: dorm traffic.
      The Windows 2003 servers were left open to the internet without any type
      of firewall protection. DNS, DHCP, Exchange, File & Print, and AD Domain
      Controller all went down.

      About five days into the disaster, with none of the critical servers yet
      restored, the Windows admin unilaterally decreed that all 500+ computers in the
      department should be manually reformatted to verify they are clean -- not
      imaged or automated through some unattended install process, but manually
      reformatted. I guess the motivation was that nobody would complain about the
      servers being down if the clients were down as well. Better yet, the grad students
      would be doing the dirty work of destroying their own workstations. Some of these
      computers had specialized instruments connected to them with obscure drivers.
      Ultimately, the reformatting orgy caused more destruction and downtime than the initial
      compromise. Who needs malicious hackers when you have admins like this, eh? The
      department I worked for was left with very limited functionality for July and August.

      BAIT & SWITCH

      That being said, I think that was a bait and switch position. My skills
      are explicitly stated in my resume. I was allowed to support the HPC
      Linux cluster, which I enjoyed. Interacting with students who needed to
      efficiently use the computers was a good time. However, during the
      disaster, I was not allowed to exercise my expertise with DHCP and DNS. The
      Windows admin didn't seem to realize that if the DNS server wasn't
      brought back up ASAP, the department was going to drop off the internet.
      Ultimately, I feel like I was judged on my inability to support Windows,
      which I never claimed I could do, along with the other reason I listed at
      the beginning of this story.

      The real purpose of this job is to prop up the Windows admin. If you can
      follow bad and unethical decisions, you will fare much better than I did.
      The upside is that inability to restore lost data, causing the department to
      drop off the internet, and "working from home" when no one in the building has
      connectivity are perfectly acceptable. Within six months, the department had
      lost three full time IT staff members.

      PARTING SHOTS

      Being highly motivated and self starting in a department that doesn't take
      its computing environment very seriously can cause you not to survive
      the six month probationary period. Staying until midnight with a Knoppix CD,
      helping students recover files for project due in two days because the Windows
      admin went home at 5PM buys you absolutely nothing.

      To paraphrase that funny Southern comedian, if you think campus
      IT hasn't put your network behind a firewall because your
      computers are "well behaved," you may very well be an incompetent Windows
      admin that missed the memo to contact campus IT to schedule a firewall
      deployment. I feel bad for the students and professors who have to put up with
      the daily headaches.

      Someone once said, "It's been real... sometimes it's been fun... it just hasn't
      been real fun."

      --
      "Tempers are wearing thin. Let's just hope some robot doesn't kill everybody." --Bender
  32. Let's assume you are a multi-city company by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Pretend you are a Wal-Mart or IBM. Suppose Bentonville or Armonk gets wiped off the map by a terrorist bomb.

    I hope both companies have some kind of continuity plan, even if it's just transferring their assets and customer lists to a competitor.

    On the other hand, the Bentonville Bed And Breakfast will probably just fold up shop.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Let's assume you are a multi-city company by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 1

      I presume the shareholders will elect a new board of directors (if they were killed in the blast, which is frankly unlikely) and that board will appoint a new CEO and high-ranking operating officers.

      It's all the mid-level bureaucrats who live at HQ who will be gone which will be problematic.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
  33. Try to cover it up to get out of the TPS reports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    5 - 6 page ones suck so we try to fix things with out tell PHB who will just make lock down thing that will get in the way of people doing there jobs.

  34. Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agencys? by bdigit · · Score: 1

    I am curious to how many people actually go the next step to get the bad guy caught and how successful they are with it? It seems like its a tough battle to get the identity of the person behind an IP.

  35. Running water, not ice by Foerstner · · Score: 1

    Ice will just make it worse.

    Only thing worse than a hollow article is a wrong one.

    --
    The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
    1. Re:Running water, not ice by maxume · · Score: 1

      That's just the advice problem though. If for some reason you have a big fire in the middle of a big field of snow and you end up having to stick you hand in the fire, by all means use the snow to cool your hand back down to normal temperatures. The 'don't use ice' thing comes from the part where cold 'soothes' the burn, but too much cold does damage; getting the flesh back down to normal temperature mitigates the inflammation response(which is short term) and stops the spread of the burn, and is the body's way of overriding the brain, things that are swollen are hard to move and painful, which makes you treat them nicely, and is a good thing, but is actually somewhat contrary to healing(which is long term). Cold water does all the making it feel better, but without the damage. There isn't any good way to convey that a little ice goes a long way, so the advice comes out as 'don't do that'(and it's right the vast majority of the time, but not 100% of the time).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  36. Patch a socket by Q-Branch · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just patch a socket. Problem solved. I learned that watching 24.

  37. We had a security breach once by thewils · · Score: 5, Funny

    It was an open FTP server. Some kind soul put about 14Gb of movies on one of our servers, then we noticed the hole (mainly because of the space) and shut down access to that server.

    So in our case the response was:

    1. Stop access.
    2. Buy beer and popcorn
    3. Watch movies.

    --
    Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    1. Re:We had a security breach once by GiovanniZero · · Score: 2, Funny

      ah, your response is eerily similar to cops with drug raids.

      --
      Mod me up, mod me down, do your worst you modding clown.
  38. "Serenity now!" by WoTG · · Score: 1

    Just close your eyes, count to ten, then start shouting "Serenity now" over and over again until the problem passes you by. :)

  39. Cry. by TheLoneWolf071 · · Score: 1

    Cry havoc And Let Slip The Dogs Of War.

  40. Re:Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agenc by mandelbr0t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've considered it, but there's a lot of barriers. First, you need enough evidence for a subpoena. That means that the chain of custody has to be preserved, and the crime scene needs to be secured by the police. Usually that means giving the compromised machines, relevant logs from monitoring equipment, etc. over to Law Enforcement for an indeterminate amount of time. I know I can't live without my servers for that long.

    You need to get the subpoena to identify the person behind the attack. That assumes that your evidence actually points to a specific suspect. Unless your attacker was a complete moron, or your network logs are incredibly voluminous, that's not very likely. Once the subpoena is served and you've got your suspect and laid charges, you need to present evidence. That requires an expert witness. If you're lucky, YOU are the expert witness, but there's training and certification involved in that process. Otherwise, you get to hire an expert witness, and that won't be cheap. Your opponent will probably hire an opposing expert, just to confuse everybody.

    Overall, I'd say that chances of success are incredibly low. Legal fees will be very high, and you have to turn over a fair chunk of your network assets to Law Enforcement. Basically, if you aren't really, really sure that you've got your man, it's really not worth the time and effort to find out who it was. That effort is much better spent allowing you to sleep at night knowing that people aren't getting in, IMO.

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
  41. Put your head between your legs by jhylkema · · Score: 1

    and kiss your ass goodbye!

  42. Game over, man by Dachannien · · Score: 1

    Lift off and nuke the site from orbit.

    It's the only way to be sure.

  43. panic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    panic!

  44. Re:Well...I'll give you some help by hguorbray · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just post your IP addresses and remote access logons and I'll be glad to help with your break-in! I promise I'll take the data and put it somewhere safe -and offshore No payment up front, but trust me -I will be getting back to you. -I'm just sayin'

  45. Easy... by andreMA · · Score: 5, Funny

    When in confusion
    or in doubt
    Run in circles
    scream and shout.

    And yeah, pull the ethernet cables out.

    1. Re:easy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome post/sig agreement!

  46. Printable page by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One-third content, two-thirds ads and links. Yeah, that's a good design.

    1 part content, nothing extra

  47. A good start, but... by IL-CSIXTY4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The most secure OS in the world wont protect you from a poorly-coded app. How many people are trying to crack your server at the OS level vs. the number of people looking for SQL injection vulnerabilities?

  48. I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know, their approach seems kinda... dangerous to me, but maybe that just shows that they're the big security gurus and I'm just a lowly coder. Maybe I can learn something from them. Or maybe they're talking out the ass, I dunno.

    For starters the advice to wait until the whole team is assembled, including the accountants, lawyers, etc, then holding meetings to determine your strategy, etc, before even unplugging the damn thing... dunno, it seems to me bordering on criminal. Yes, you don't want to let one lone cowboy handle it from end to end, but a trained admin could at the very least be able to unplug the computer from the network and isolate the damage before it goes any worse. Or know enough to decide if it has to be unplugged. But if he thinks it is, it should be step #1 not IIRC step #4 after you're done holding your meetings and informing the employees and having PR draft the vaguely worded announcement that tries to make it sound unimportant to your customers.

    Waiting for the designated accountant, and the designated lawyer, and the HR guy, and God knows who else to arrive at the middle of the night and hold their meeting while a breach is in progress and someone is downloading your productive database, seems to me dumb to the extreme. To reuse your example, it's like saying you should keep your hand in the stove until you talked to your lawyer and your doctor and a designated family member, make sure you have a strategy, and only then pull the hand out. By that time, it could be burned to a crisp.

    I mean, by the elder Gods, especially when you include such non-techies... surely you've seen these guys when they have to give you a spec for a program. If you wait for them to hold a meeting on such technical issues as "are we in aggreement that we need to unplug the server?", at least one goes into responsibility avoidance mode and refuses to be remembered as the one who took any decision, at least one goes into alpha-dog-pissing-on-everything-to-mark-his-territ ory mode, etc. It's a meeting that could well take hours without going anywhere.

    Frankly. I'd rather just trust the "cowboy" admin to know his job well enough, and know whether he needs to unplug the servers because of a serious breach, or just let it be if it's just a DDOS, while the non-techies deal with their own domain of competence. There is _nothing_ a non-techie can add that's meaningful to that kind of an inherently techie decision. Just like you don't have the admins tell the company lawyers what to do, have the decency to not have the admin hang around and wait for the lawyers to tell him what to do. It's not only a better use of the admins' time, it's also a better use of the lawyers' time, who could be doing something that's a better use of _their_ skills in that time.

    I'll aggree, though, that the advice at step 1 seems to be dangerously content free. It's something which, although it may sound otherwise, actually noone ever actually did as such. Even if one "cowboy" admin did offer to contain the incident, it's not like someone let him deal with the _whole_ affair, including the HR, legal and financial aspects. Which is the domains they mention that you need on that team. More likely the "cowboy" just dealt with the servers, while the lawyer did his own job, the HR guy did his own, etc. I don't think (m)any people let the admin draft the press release too, for example. So the whole "don't let one 'cowboy' deal with it all" advice is basically like saying "don't try to fly on a broomstick off a bridge": you weren't actually planning to do that anyway, and it's not really giving you any insight you didn't already have.

    Finally, I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid by trade, but the whole thing looks more like PR and a bit of an IT-for-PHBs magazine than anything actually serious about security or IT. It reads like little more than an advertisment for the three companies they mention, with a bit of a scare theme to make you contact them ASAP, than anything else. I'm also a tad cir

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Depending on what you want to accomplish, pulling the plug or the network cable isn't something you want to do. If you want to catch the people who did it, instead of just minimize the damage, you need to approach this from a forensics POV. If you power-off the system, you lose everything that is stored in memory, which may be the only location where an important email, webpage or IP address is stored. Without this information it may not be possible to track-down the attacker. Yes, if they are communicating directly with the machine, you can get this info from a router or even the ISP but, if they are using some sort of anonymizer, you can't. Also, the rootkit (or whatever) may have a self-destruct built-in; can't communicate for 3 minutes, delete and overwrite everything. This would mean pulling the network cable will destroy any important information on your system. You might have backups for your data, but you don't for the attacker's information.

      Another important consideration is that powering down the system may prevent any information that's gathered from being admissible in court (U.S. jurisdiction). For example, can you guarantee that the email address on the disk is the attackers email, or is it from an email sent or received, or something else. Since you didn't shutdown properly, you may not be able to claim that the address is really attacker124@gmail.com, but might be attacker123, or attacker224, etc. - meaning no warrant and no charges. There are devices out there that you can plug into a USB port that will attempt to copy everything from RAM just so you have a complete record - then you can pull the plug, since that will prevent the hard drive from being written to. This preserves the information and it can be used as evidence. Whatever you do, don't do a normal shutdown.

      So, a reason you might want to wait for your lawyers and HR people is to determine if you need to worry about prosecution, or just make the problem go away. If they compromised an old desktop, or the web server in your DMZ, you might decide that it isn't worth it to pursue a conviction - lawyer's call - they know how expensive/difficult it will be. If the system holds personal information, the HR guy may need to help make the call. Ex. - Do you have to report a breach to all of your customers? Just employees? No reporting required, it isn't the info designated under the laws and/or regulations. Now, if it is a development server, you might want to leave it live if you suspect corporate espionage. You can bring in the feds and let them assess the situation. You might also want to buy time to work with you ISP to trace the attack. You actions should be done based on what the server contains and its value - which is why you have the CIO or CEO in the room.

      Now, a lot of this may not apply to your situation, but it isn't a black and white issue. There are a lot of things to consider. If you want some good information, I would recommend any of Brian Carrier's work - papers and his book. I have read a couple of his papers and they were really good and, while I haven't read his book, it has been recommended to me by others.

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    2. Re:I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For starters the advice to wait until the whole team is assembled, including the accountants, lawyers, etc, then holding meetings to determine your strategy, etc, before even unplugging the damn thing... dunno, it seems to me bordering on criminal. Yes, you don't want to let one lone cowboy handle it from end to end, but a trained admin could at the very least be able to unplug the computer from the network and isolate the damage before it goes any worse. Or know enough to decide if it has to be unplugged.

      Actually, we had senior people from legal, loss prevention, info security and top developers from the development teams on our breach almost instantly once it was discovered. The legal team got the meetings moving while the techies got moving on the research. Loss Prevention scored some of the affected hard disks as soon as they could for forensic analysis, info security was analyzing them, and development was driving the search for data. We met at least daily until the crisis was over, and we were on the phone and emailing to each other constantly with new theories and discoveries. The incident was kept strictly silent by the teams working on the problem until legal could figure out how much to release, and to whom. However, when I needed to pull in a few more developers to help shut down the problems, there was no problem in getting them on the new task, and no questions that I brought in others. (I had to swear them to secrecy, of course.)

      We each may be cowboys in our own areas, but everybody went to someone else to double check their facts before releasing them to the group.

      The entire incident was quickly and efficiently handled. Part of the speed was because nobody focused on blame; we were strictly concerned about finding the data and ensuring the full extent of the damage was uncovered. After the crisis period was over, we spent a long time making sure there would be no repeat.

      I've never worked with a team that was assembled so quickly yet worked so well together. Perhaps it was the common focus or drive to solve the immediate problem, or to protect the systems, or because each team sent only their best players, but we nailed the problem shut in a big hurry. I can't imagine it having worked any better given the circumstances.

      I really wish I could sign this note because I'd like nothing better than to take credit for my part in the recovery effort, but there's still no reason to inform the world that we had a problem.

    3. Re:I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by BVis · · Score: 1

      What color is the sky on your planet?

      I'm guessing you work either in a highly techno-centric company (on the scale of Yahoo, Google, Amazon, etc) or in a market sector that is so obscenely profitable that the higher-ups and/or the stockholders don't scream bloody murder every time someone from IT wants to spend money.

      Either way, I call BS. Your scenario is a pipedream.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    4. Re:I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree there may be times when reacting to an attack needs to be legal, rather then technological, those times are few.

      I work for a data company, we do digital document conversion from physical mediums. We handle alot of very sensitive information.

      As such, if my servers are comprimised, my first reaction is to pull the network. Not at the server, but at the hub. This affectively stops any data transfer to outside my building. Which is GOOD ENOUGH for any situtaion. And it only takes about 30 seconds.

      If I decided, that "evidence" was more important, I would be opening my compnay up for lawsuits, as I allowed data to leave the building in an effort to track down the bandits. Which may or may not pay off. I can't know if it will or won't. But as I don't know, I take the safe side and put a silk rope in the honeypot. You never know.

      What I can and DO know, is that if I protect my data, no one can sue me. I may have to deal with that same hacker again, but I won't have to deal with lawyers. And frankly, I'll take a malicious hacker over a friendly lawyer anyday. Hackers have limits, I've yet to meet a coprate lawyer that had any.

      Here is the layout for you. If your security is good, and your sys admin isn't stupid or lazy, then protecting your data is JOB ONE. Evidence will be in the log files. And log file copies you have your server making to a small P2 200 system thats stuffed into a closet somewhere (we all know the first thing hit on a compromised system is the "logs" directory, hence, live on the fly backups). But that evidence may or may not help you. While protecting your data WILL HELP YOU, NO MATTER WHAT.

      Breaking the connection is the first thing you should do, if you don't have any other plans in place. And legal evidence doesn't mean SHIT if you go out of business because your entire data set was copied and shared to your competition. Or because you leaked classified or otherwise private data.

      It is GROSS NEGLIGENCE for anyone related to IT to allow a "hack in progress" to continue if there is any chance data will be comprimised.

      Unless you have the hacker safely corraled, which is rare and indeed only possible by the best of admins, when being blessed by their diety on a fourth thursday under a blue moon with jupiter and saturn in wane position.

      I can understand there are greater issues sometimes. But I personally have never seen anything that trumps data security for private documents. Prosecuting the hacker (yeah, good luck) comes a distant 4th after 1) DATA SECURITY 2) DATA SECURITY 3) SYSTEM INTEGRITY ....................4) catch the hacker. 5) explain to managment what happened.

      I have a job, my job is sys admin. If my servers come under attack, I'm not waiting for ANYONE to do anything, I'm running for the net link.

      STOP, think, how long does it take to copy 1 million SSN and names from a database? You have that much time to get the connection broken, or you are breached. What do you do, call a meeting? Or pull the plug?

      My company stores YOUR name, SSN, address and medical/school records. Which would you rather I do?

    5. Re:I dunno, it's sorta... news to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm guessing you work either in a highly techno-centric company (on the scale of Yahoo, Google, Amazon, etc) or in a market sector that is so obscenely profitable that the higher-ups and/or the stockholders don't scream bloody murder every time someone from IT wants to spend money.

      The latter. We probably spent less than a couple hundred thousand dollars on the incident, which is so small around here it could be attributed to a rounding error. I do know that the lawyers working with us were reporting daily progress to the corporate general counsel, who was in turn reporting daily to the CEO.

      When one of the lawyers felt like she had to point that out to us, I could tell she was used to people for whom that "raised the motivation." She seemed almost disappointed that it didn't get a rise out of us. For me, I couldn't have cared less if the CEO was standing in my cube -- there was a breach, I took it very personally, and I focused 100% on fixing the problem. And I believe the other technical people on the response team felt the same way. The managers were much more panicked than we were, but they wisely kept it to themselves. Sure, on the inside I was wondering a little about my future employment status, but that really wasn't the motivator. Getting it done right, getting it done quickly, and closing the hole was seriously all I thought about until after it was over.

      My boss wasn't a part of the response team but he knew what was going on, so he mostly just ran interference for me and made sure I was left alone. I just wish all our projects could run that smoothly -- but not with that urgency!

      Either way, I call BS. Your scenario is a pipedream.

      Let's just say that it doesn't suck to work for a very successful company that can afford to do things right.

  49. Easy.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sigh, Get the install CD's locate your last few data backups and plan on a very VERY long week + weekend. Restoring the data is fine, restoring the OS+apps is NOT but you have a good snapshot of the apps when you last installed them right?

    When asked, make sure you mention how the CTO cancelled your project for security upgrades and audits and this would not have happened if security audits and upgrades were performed.

    Key CTO's car just to make sure.

  50. First you have to file a by Buddy_DoQ · · Score: 1

    27B Stroke 6

    I'm a stickler for paper work.

    --
    -Buddy of DoQ
    1. Re:First you have to file a by Angostura · · Score: 1

      ...and don't forget to get a receipt for your receipt.

  51. Get MyPW for your Linux Servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MyPW just released a PAM module that allows you to use their password token on as many different Linux servers you install it on. It's pretty cool, I just installed it last week on 5 servers.

  52. What any man would do in that situation. by kick_in_the_eye · · Score: 1

    Curl up in the fetal position and wait for tomorrow.

    Also works at performance reviews.

  53. easy... by trouser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Burn the place to the ground, kill everyone, start again.

    --
    Now wash your hands.
  54. Two Options by Shaltenn · · Score: 1

    1) If you have an IT team ready to go: Simply pick one, blame it on them, fire them, find some random script-kiddie hacker and blame them.

    2) If you don't have an IT team ready to go: Blame users / customers since it clearly must be their fault in some way, shape, or form.

    Remember kiddies, rules never apply if you're a corporation.

    --
    If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
  55. The REAL problem is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's a great idea: impliment a fleet of Lunix servers maintainted by a fleet of consultants. That way, when (not IF) you get hacked, nobody will really know it, and nobody will actually be accountable! It worked for Munich, it can work for you! Go go infinite billable hours!

    Lunix: the "cover your ass" alternative for spending other people's money!

    Got r00t?

  56. I'm not even a fanboy by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    If you've been smart, you'll already have a computer security incident response team -- and a plan -- in place. If you've been smart?

    The sysadmins are smart. It's their managers who make those decisions. 99% of managers simply don't have the brains to see the need for a disaster recovery team.

    The solution is simple. Plan, Plan, Plan, Test, Plan, Test, Plan, and Test.

    Your Data has to live separately from your OS/Apps

    The easiest way is to use a VMWare ESX server and keep daily/weekly backups of the VMs.
    Your Data should live on a Large redundant Storage Array.

    The ideal situation for every IT group is a scalable redundant SAN and a scalable Blade center running VMWARE bare metal.

    The costs of such things don't seem worth it, but They really are.
    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:I'm not even a fanboy by LoztInSpace · · Score: 1

      Interesting - my experience is the opposite. It's the managers see the need for DRP and the admins sulk and whinge when we (the managers) increase their workload by asking them to implement more resilient systems, move stuff around, produce documentation, actually test the DRP etc. etc.
      Agree with your ideal solution. That's what we run here along with NLB & SQL Clusters (yeah - no Linux - gasp! Whatever...).

    2. Re:I'm not even a fanboy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fully agree Hats off and save a Penguin get rid of anything Linux and upgrade to Solaris.

  57. Re:Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agenc by dazed-amoeba · · Score: 1

    Careful with the subpoena. There was a reporter sitting in the court trolling for news when we asked for a subpoena. The resulting news story was worse than the incident ever was. CIO is gone now.

  58. Nobody??? OK, I'll do it by battery111 · · Score: 0, Troll

    the above comment would be correct, where it not for the fact that *BSD IS DYING!!!

    1. Re:Nobody??? OK, I'll do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here. BSD is already dead.

  59. My version: by Alex+Belits · · Score: 4, Informative

    1. Keep the suits and incompetent people the hell out!

    Once a compromise happened, there is no time to listen to lawyers or marketing executives. If they have anything to say, they would write a document where they list all recommendations they can care about -- for example, how "This site is pwn3d" web page is supposed to look like, whether it is a good thing to send all users a letter "please cancel your credit card", or what information can be released to authorities. If they didn't do that already, let them write those things while sysadmins are working.

    This, of course, means that if there is only one sysadmin competent enough to investigate and fix the problem, then he would have to work on it alone.

    2. Shut it down and investigate changes made by the attackers.

    Before doing any investigation or recovery, shut the compromised and potentially compromised devices down. No malicious code should remain running. Whatever services should remain, must run in the minimal mode on separate hardware. For example, keep email running on a newly installed box. All investigation should be done in a clean environment -- drives moved to dedicated "clean" machines, or original servers booted from clean images (CD, PXE, replacement drives) on a private subnet, not accessible to anyone but people involved in incident response. Make full images of compromised hosts' storage whenever possible.

    Backups are your friend. IDS logs are, too, but make sure that your IDS isn't compromised, and actually recorded something meaningful.

    3. Don't worry about the person who originated the the attack.

    Find its results and, if possible, method. Likely there will be at least one person within the company (malicious or more likely negligent) and at least one outside. Screw them both, they don't have access to your network anymore because it's off.

    4. Immediately restore known-clean backups, perform audit on potentially compromised data and update the systems.

    Backup is "known-clean" if investigation shown that it is from a state before the attack and does not contain vulnerable versions of software or compromised authentication information that allowed attack to happen. Usually some data has to be restored from a compromised system because it's more recent than backup (or because you are an idiot and forgot to back it up). Audits are supposed to be painful. Once data is in place, update software and configuration. Erase all compromised authentication keys and tokens.

    5. Document the process.

    I mean, technical details.

    6. Tell everyone that they are screwed.

    Explain to every office drone that they are going to get new passwords. They won't like it, so keep your LART ready.

    Oh, btw:
    http://abelits.livejournal.com/30214.html
    http://abelits.livejournal.com/30681.html
    http://abelits.livejournal.com/30872.html

    --
    Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    1. Re:My version: by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      You forgot a step just before number 6: Get your resume ready

      Remember, when it hits the fan, it's going to be propelled down the hierarchy, even if the real problem was that some executive wanted to cut security funds.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    2. Re:My version: by angus_rg · · Score: 1

      Couple things to keep in mind when shutting your system down:
      Aside from losing what is stored in physical memory and chancing your swap file being over written/purged, many root kits will remove themselves when the system is rebooted to avoid detection(why stay and leave evidence if I know I can hack it anytime I want). You are better off unplugging the network cable and making a exact duplicate of the file system/dumping memory if you can, and running some known good system binaries, such as process viewers to get a snap shot of what is running(screen captures are good to get, when applicable). If you can, have known good linked libraries available just incase it is corrupted on the current system.

      Even still the output may or may not be 100% trustable, but it can still provide useful information. If you make duplicates and manage to dump pertinent data, I would still store the hard drive in a safe place after making duplicates for forensic reasons once shut down. Aside from that information being the most trust worthy, comparing it to changes or missing information of the running computer may help you determine what is on there.

      P.S. Of course, if I were a h4x0r writing code, rather then just waiting for the system to shut down, I would test for a continual network connection and exit as soon as I lost access, I would clean the system evidence and exit. But I'm not, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    3. Re:My version: by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Aside from losing what is stored in physical memory

      I can't imagine a system that would actually preserve that without truly obscene cost. Also unless finding the source of attack is much more important than recovery (what is almost never the case in real life), it's usually worthless. The only exception to this is compromised virtual environment running on a clean physical host.

      and chancing your swap file being over written/purged, many root kits will remove themselves when the system is rebooted to avoid detection(why stay and leave evidence if I know I can hack it anytime I want). You are better off unplugging the network cable and making a exact duplicate of the file system/dumping memory if you can, and running some known good system binaries, such as process viewers to get a snap shot of what is running(screen captures are good to get, when applicable). If you can, have known good linked libraries available just incase it is corrupted on the current system.

      No. Nothing should ever be run by an admin on a compromised system, period. Most important, he shouldn't ever enter a password on it that gives any kind of privileged access. If the system has networked storage on a non-compromised server, storage should be cleanly disconnected. If it doesn't, system should go through the fastest shutdown procedure possible, and if it requires entering a password, network should be disconnected before that. If the local storage is likely to survive power-off, it the machine should be simply powered down, and all recovery procedures should run from a clean environment. If the host should be cleanly shut down, having a rootkit produce MORE changes if shut down is a negligible risk because rootkit was already there and could react on anything -- disappearing network connection, serial port activity, time of the day -- trying to affect those things is a distraction from the recovery work.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    4. Re:My version: by angus_rg · · Score: 1

      Aside from losing what is stored in physical memory

      I can't imagine a system that would actually preserve that without truly obscene cost.


      Many programs keep temporary files during the course of execution, files which frequently are never written to disk, but still accessible, or will be overwritten when the service stops, and anything being run at the console give the option to save the current sessions to a disk(we don't know where the hacker was doing their dirty work from). Much of this can easily be collected and written to removable media, so the cost is negligible.

      Also unless finding the source of attack is much more important than recovery

      Hence why I prefaced it with, things to keep in mind. ;)

      No. Nothing should ever be run by an admin on a compromised system, period.

      If you have unplugged the network connection(including disabling wireless cards), what does it matter? Any data you enter is going to go no where, except for the fireproof vault where you store the evidence, or back into production, which, provided you do a good job of blowing away contents before you rebuild it, no one would be able to get without physically removing the drive, if you're lucky enough to have a system that contains no sensitive information and can be simply rebuilt.

      By the logic of never do anything with a running system, our Antivirus research groups wouldn't make it very far, and in many cases, neither would many forensic teams.

      Bottom line, to do accurate forensics, if needed, you need to grab as much information about the system without ruining integrity of what is on the drive before you shut it down.

    5. Re:My version: by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Many programs keep temporary files during the course of execution, files which frequently are never written to disk, but still accessible, or will be overwritten when the service stops,

      This data is worthless.

      and anything being run at the console give the option to save the current sessions to a disk(we don't know where the hacker was doing their dirty work from).

      What console? What sessions? Compromised desktops are not worth messing with, and servers don't do that.

      Much of this can easily be collected and written to removable media, so the cost is negligible.

      It's just as likely to contain valid data as to be bullshit left by the attacker. There is no point in knowing it, all important data should be in remote logs.

      If you have unplugged the network connection(including disabling wireless cards), what does it matter? Any data you enter is going to go no where, except for the fireproof vault where you store the evidence, or back into production, which, provided you do a good job of blowing away contents before you rebuild it, no one would be able to get without physically removing the drive, if you're lucky enough to have a system that contains no sensitive information and can be simply rebuilt.

      The system might be not truly root-compromised at that point yet but have access to whatever device/service you use to log in. You can only be sure after you see storage in a clean environment.

      By the logic of never do anything with a running system, our Antivirus research groups wouldn't make it very far, and in many cases, neither would many forensic teams.

      Antiviruses are for Windows desktops. For me the default state of a Windows desktop is "compromised", and I always treat them that way.

      Bottom line, to do accurate forensics, if needed, you need to grab as much information about the system without ruining integrity of what is on the drive before you shut it down.

      Data forensics is something that should be assumed to be "nice thing to do if it will be possible". Bringing a production system up in a non-compromised state is usually mandatory and urgent.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    6. Re:My version: by angus_rg · · Score: 1

      I now understand how Galileo felt.....

    7. Re:My version: by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      My point is that when dealing with servers you can't apply the approach "Let's hope, it's something bit-by-bit identical to something we have already seen on tens of thousands other computers", the fundamental assumption of antiviruses' design. People who break into servers, be they skr1pt kiddies or advanced blackhats, produce a much wider variety of attacks, so signatures that are so precious for antivirus companies are worthless on servers. There are probably tens of thousands rootkit variants and exploits that no one ever seen, yet as long as vulnerabilities are fixed, those rootkits and exploits don't pose any threat.

      On the other hand, on Windows, where the main vulnerabilities is the user pressing "Yes", plus massive holes in IE and Outlook Express, "exploits" are as primitive as executable renamed to "message.pif", and plugging that would require a massive user education campaign, so malware evolves very slowly, and almost no one bothers manually attacking anything.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    8. Re:My version: by angus_rg · · Score: 1

      Interesting. My point, unplugging the systen may not be the best option IF you need a forensic investigatuion, is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with yours.

      Pass me a beer.

  60. story by 18769 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm just a grad student, and one day, I installed something (I think it might've been an nfs server) without firewalling it (I did some sort of thing which had the deamon reject connections from outside my subnet). I was hacked. Funny thing is, they went straight from my machine to my roommate's, an old 486 which was also a webserver. From my roommate's machine, the hacker served a rootkit (cleverly named "..." in the root html directory).

    Enter the FBI, who showed up in my roomate's lab asking about his computer (amoung other things). Picture yourself a grad student answering his lab door to find men in suits (an uncommon experience) who say they're part of the FBI (also uncommon), and mean it (still less common). After some questions, it was hesitantly established that my roomate was not the hacker serving root kits from his home computer.

    From there, the FBI (with our permission) bugged our appartment. They put a "tap" in our appartment, which consistend of a special switch and a *very* loud windows machine that sat on our internet connection listening for hacker activity. The installation of the tap involved 7 FBI agents, none of which new nearly as much as my roomate about networking (that the broadcast ping couldn't get through their special switch with the word "tap" on it was a real mystery). Neadless to say, I didn't fool around with bittorrent or the like durring that time.

    After a month or two, they caught the hacker (who was sweedish, apparently), and eventaully prosecuted him successfully.

    Point is: sometimes it is useful to not reinstall immediately when hacked -- it can result in a good story :)

  61. Darn! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My grandmother would just offer to patch my socks. I tried to convince her once I was wearing V5 SOCKS, but she called balderdash and kicked me from the channel!

  62. Officer Ripley Says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

    1. Re:Officer Ripley Says... by kir · · Score: 1

      F*ckin' A.

      --
      3cx.org - A truly bad website.
  63. Ask yourself... by Seraphnote · · Score: 1

    "What would MacGyver do?"

  64. Secrecy is not the way to ensure security. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    [NetWare] It's secure by design, it's secure by default, it's just secure.

    NetWare is proprietary (perhaps built on some FLOSS, but with proprietary software mixed in) so you can't completely know how well the implementation you're running follows a design you favor. No proprietary software's security can be verified as completely as FLOSS. It's never wise to conclude that any proprietary software is "secure by default".

    1. Re:Secrecy is not the way to ensure security. by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      I am thinking your somewhat young, NetWare was born long before FLOSS.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    2. Re:Secrecy is not the way to ensure security. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

      And that is an ahistorical non sequitur. Neither my age nor the first distribution date of NetWare matter. The freedoms to inspect, share, modify, and run the software anytime for any reason are necessary freedoms in and of themselves, particularly for assessing security and reaching the conclusion that you did about NetWare. So long as you use proprietary software, you can't fully assess the security of your software.

      Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, "the first versions of NetWare were designed" in 1983. Even if we take that year to be the first year of distribution, NetWare started the same year as the GNU Project was first announced.

  65. I was assuming a serious breach by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    1. I was assuming a serious breach. If it's a development server, frankly, it has no excuse to have any real data on it, or be accessible from the internet at all. So it would hardly qualify as a security breach, or be possible to breach.

    2. Depending on the zone where a server is, leaving it happily running without isolating it, can be an invitation for the problem to magnify. E.g., for most companies there is more than one server in a DMZ: if one is pwned, it can be used as a proxy to attack the others. E.g., that server has access to a database. Don't be surprised if the same database server or cluster hosts more than one database. Just because the compromised server may host, say, some public informational pages about the company's products, don't assume it can't possibly also have access to the online shop database.

    3. I still say that a qualified admin should be able to tell that kind of a difference. Unless the company's IT is a a chaotic (evil) disaster, the admin should already know which is the development server and which is the production server. I don't think he has to wait for the CEO to tell him which server is which, or that most CEOs will even know. That's not saying that the CEO is (necessarily) dumb, just that it's not his job. It's like waiting for the general to come tell you who's the designated marksman in each squad: it's just not his job to worry about details at that level.

    4. Sad to say, getting a prosecution and a conviction is nowadays 99% pipe dream and fairy tale. Between containing some damage which you know _will_ expand if given enough time, and the off chance that you'll bring a hacker to justice, I dunno, I know what I'd choose. I'd love to see justice served, but at some point you have to be realistic and realize that there's no point in being the martyr (even as a whole company) for a lost cause.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:I was assuming a serious breach by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 1

      I was referring to a software development server instead of a web development server, but we can discuss any generic, internal server that has important information. I agree that they shouldn't be accessible from the Internet, but there are always ways in - if there were cost effective ways to 100% prevent it, everyone would use them. Maybe someone's home PC got compromised and the attacker can come in on a VPN - nothing "internal" is compromised, but everything is accesible.

      A qualified admin MAY be able to tell the difference, but that would be an exception rather than a rule. Why? Admins may be smart people and used to dealing with a lot of complexity, but that doesn't make them qualified to make legal or other decisions outside their baliwick. Admins are specialists. So are lawyers. So are the HR people. So are salespersons. So is the CEO. A CEO might not be able to tell you what data server-04 contains, but if you tell him it holds the data for "Project X" he might know that they are using that server remotely to pitch the project to the Department of Defense so as long as the server is running, it shouldn't be touched. A bad presentation will cost the company billions and force them to layoff thousands of people.

      Also, an admin doesn't know what everyone is doing with the systems. They might know what the accounting server is and what software is installed on it, but not know how vital that information is. Maybe there is an SEC deadline coming up and having that server down even for a few hours will cause that deadline to be missed and fines being levied. Same goes for legal deadlines. If you are given 7 days to respond to something the judge isn't going to give you a break because a server was shut down. I know these are extreme examples, but I want to illustrate the point that admins know a lot, but you can't assume they know everything. Worrying about what you don't know should keep you up at night.

      Unforutnately, the standard response to an attack is to immediately end the problem clean the system and reinstall as necessary. All evidence is gone, making prosecution impossible. As long as this is the SOP, prosecutions will remain rare. Yes, there is the risk that the problem might magnify, but trying to monitor the attacker and limiting what they can do might be a better approach - or maybe not. It all depends on what they are doing, and what is at risk.

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
    2. Re:I was assuming a serious breach by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      1. I wasn't talking about formatting and reinstalling. I was talking about pulling the network cable. There's a difference. Wiping away all evidence _is_ stupid, but containing the attack isn't.

      2. No offense, but your examples illustrate precisely what scares me.

      So basically a compromised server, where there's a breach in progress, should be left untouched because the boss's powerpoint presentation in on it? I.e., actual confidential data may be leaked, the problem can magnify, the company can open itself to lawsuits in the process, but, hey, his precious presentation is safe. Or isn't, since there's nothing to keep an attacker from messing with that data too. No offense, but that's worth a Dilbert strip, if any manager actually requests something _that_ stupid.

      How about just installing a backup on a different machine, if he needs a presentation? I mean, frankly, that server should have been backed up, and anyway you can rebuild a demo system from scratch too if you had to. It's not like a demo actually has productive data or anything. (And if it has, now that's irresponsible. But I digress.) So leaving a hacker claw away at the DMZ from that pwned server just to save the couple of hours worth building a new demo server is... irresponsible.

      Ditto for the court order. Courts are not some inflexible arbitrary thing. You can get a deadline extended if you show up with a signed slip of paper from the data forensics firm saying that your financials server had a breech in progress and had to be taken out. God knows SCO got their deadlines extended for years with nothing more than hot air.

      In fact, if you _do_ have to submit some data to SEC or to a court, I'd be more worried about that data being tainted by an attack. How do you know it still holds anything even resembling the real data any more, or if maybe it's been defaced to include stuff like a couple million spent on prostitutes for the board members? Keeping the server up for forensics is one thing, but keeping it up because the boss wants to generate a report on a compromised server... well, as I was saying, now _that's_ worth a Dilbert strip.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    3. Re:I was assuming a serious breach by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 1

      1. It may have a self-destruct. A common tactic is to wipe/overwrite the drive after an attack. So, if it loses communication, it might assume it was discovered and kill your data.

      So, which is more important: Blowing a presentation or leaking private company information? Depends on what the presentation means and what the information is. The presentation may be backed-up but what if the server has special hardware or software on it? How do you have backups of that? If you have a single license for something, you can't have a backup. For a lot of things, you get one shot - an hour with senior executives to make your case. If you can't deliver a flawless presentation, you can kiss that client good-bye. Sometimes, that is worth a LOT of money. If the presentation starts in 2 hours do you take the chance that you can rebuild everything or accept your business plans for the Zune-killer get leaked? Maybe you lose the source code to Super Application 2010. If the market for that is a few million, maybe you don't care and you let the presentation go on.

      This isn't a black and white situation. If it was medical or financial records, fine. What if it your outgoing mail server? A PC in a conference room? The fact is, there is no answer that is always right. That's why you want the company "experts" to get together to make a decision. If the system has been compromised for hours, then you can assume that the data is already leaked. Is the next best thing to track the attacker? Maybe. It depends on the situation.

      Another note, the courts aren't always flexible. If there is a timeline in the law, you are out of luck. For example, if you must register objections or complaints 30 days before $FOO, It doesn't matter what your personal problems are - the timeline is set and you missed the deadline.

      My whole point is that there is no RIGHT THING that you always do. That's what the article was trying to get across - you need input from your area experts when things go wrong. Sometimes the right thing to do is pull the plug. Sometimes it isn't. Making calls like that is why the CEO gets paid a lot of money. If they blow the call, they have to deal with the consequences. (Or at least hope the company is big enough to pay a few million in fines to avoid any prosecution.) What's really needed is a policy, created by those experts that can be applied in "generic" cases such as website defacement or a PC acting as a spam relay. For more important items, you get those experts together and handle the situation.

      --
      Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
  66. Re:Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agenc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they always ask if more than $500,000 was lost, if not then no feds

    --unless you are selling booze, drugs, or cigars online

    or

    serving kiddie porn (maybe in an encrypted file one of your "users" uploaded?)

  67. a copy of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I always keep an up to date copy of my resume.

    Just kidding... mostly

  68. Perfect Timing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is great timing. Just this morning I had a client site visit to install our (financial) software. I couldn't get it to run and the reason turned out to be every single port (all 65k of them) was in use by a variant of Sasser. It took 2 hours to convince the client that it was even possible that they could get infected with a worm (this was a Windows server, direct atatched to the internet with no patching *at all* and AV software which had expired last year).

    In the end the client still doesn't really believe me and thinks it's just "our buggy software" which must be the problem.

    So what do you do when your security is breached, but no one (who can make a decision) cares or believes?

  69. What to do next ? by BlueTrin · · Score: 3, Funny

    Create an account on this website ?

    --
    Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
  70. Unplug the AC! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure if you meant the RJ45 or the AC plug. In some cases, you may NOT want to pull the plug.

    I've always understood that it's best to *physically* yank power, *then* network.

    Rationale? Power down may corrupt the filesystem, but still preserves state (ie. log files, etc), while yanking network or performing a #shutdown -h now may trigger coverup or malicious scripts added by the intruder.

    Next step is, of course, dd the disks to a DVD or something (evidence, analysis), format, then start to recover executables from clean install discs, config and data from backups.

    Oh, and at work, I tail the security log files to an old dot matrix printer; it's pretty hard for a remote intruder to upset that. (Could also tail by one-way serial cable to a separate machine with no network connectivity.)

    Call me paranoid, but discussing my logging and other security stuff freaks me out. That's why I've checked "Post Anonymously".

    1. Re:Unplug the AC! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and at work, I tail the security log files to an old dot matrix printer; it's pretty hard for a remote intruder to upset that. (Could also tail by one-way serial cable to a separate machine with no network connectivity.) You aren't the only one in the industry who does this.

      I once knew a guy who had his log-printer print a few characters every quarter hour. If the printer stopped for more than 15 minutes he knew something was amiss.
  71. #1 advise by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Disclaimer: I've actually written the security policy in place at my company, and I used to be the guy responsible for security before my last career move.

    My advise to sysadmins who notice a breach is this:
    Take your hands off the damn keyboard. Don't do anything unless you are 150% certain that you can see all possible consequences of your action. Call the IRT if you have one.
    If there's nobody to call and you have to act right now, pull the power plug on the machine, then call the experts. Don't power the machine up again under any circumstances. If you want to look at the harddrive, make a copy first and mount it read-only in a different machine.

    Why? Because back in the days when I was, err... looking around inside machines not my own, one of the things everyone I knew did was put in some scripts, tools, something, that'd wipe the logs or even the machine if my shell gets killed or the machine shut down or rebooted.

    TFA assumes that you learn of the incident long after it has happened. Many incidents in real life are being noticed while they are going on, no matter if it's a remote access or your machine running an FTP server that wasn't there last month. That FTP server is almost certainly patched, and one of the things it might do is destroy evidence if you kill it. There might be an invisible process watching it to wipe evidence if you kill -9 it. Heck, /sbin/kill could've been replaced by a trojan and not do what you expect it to do. Even /sbin/init is suspect. Your kernel, boot record, on some machines even your BIOS has possibly been manipulated.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  72. Re:Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agenc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually yes. (And you will excuse me for being anon for this). A while back I was working for a streaming media company. We had about 40 Win2k boxes (shut up; you couldn't stream WMA from *nix; and not a single one was hacked, god bless IISLockdown). As we were a small company I split my time between looking after the devs and looking after the network team. Unknown to me we had a couple of linux boxes which were no longer used; but were still active. The network person who was supposed to look after them hadn't documented them or updated them and they got owned. Badly.

    The attackers started using them to share files (good call, as a streaming network we had fat bandwidth). When I discovered it (by looking at the weekly bandwidth stats and going "What the hell is that IP") they had started distributing child porn from them. So I rang the UK Computer Crimes Unit. They told me to shut down the boxes. So I did, and pulled them from the data centre; bringing them back to the office and waited for the police to turn up. And waited. And waited. These were big expensive boxes for a small company to have offline; £6k a pop. And the police never followed up. When the company ran out of cash 3 years later those boxes were still sitting in a corner waiting to be picked up by the police and examined.

  73. The American solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When in doubt, or have a security breach, assault an other country!

  74. So you did the right thing! by remmelt · · Score: 2, Funny

    Let's assess your response step by step.

    1. Assemble an incident response team.
    Gather the buddies round the terminal, see what we got here.

    2. Assess the initial damage and the risk for more.
    You measured the damage, all 14GB of it. In assessing the risk for more of this damage, you noted that no ftp write access had been tried in a while, concluding that the risk was relatively low.

    3. Develop a notification plan.
    You sent an email-to-all that there's going to be a movie night, cancel your dates, postpone dinner, it's going to be a long one!

    4. Begin remediating the problem.
    You closed off ftp access.

    5. Document everything.
    I guess watching the movies, I mean damage, would fall under the documentation stage.

    6. Develop a strategy for stopping the next attack.
    Contemplate re-opening the ftp server to encourage more damage.

  75. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  76. Mostly old news by neilbaby · · Score: 2, Informative

    At the risk of tooting my own horn, I blogged about similar material about a week before the Dark Reading publication. My blog focused more on the PR foul-ups that companies tend to make and ways to prevent those foul-ups rather than the technical response. It was based off of a recent Google vulnerability that got publicly posted as ?revenge? by the vulnerability discover who was unhappy about having not gotten enough credit for previously reported Google vulnerabilities. Neil Smithline BEA WebLogic Security Architect

    --
    Neil Smithline http://www.neilsmithline.com
  77. You can have more fun than that by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    If you're not ultra concerned about the server, you can have some fun. One technique is replace the executables with similarly sized programs which do something slightly malicious, such as alter their internet settings to take them offline until they figure out how to fix it. Or corrupt a couple bytes in the file with a hex editor. Usually it seems like people just run irc bots on compromised systems. What they don't realize is that this gives you a method of determining channel passwords, bot passwords (which are probably their passwords on other compromised machines), and if you feel like it, you can use this information to take over their irc channel.

  78. Re:Anyone ever followup with law enforcement agenc by surprise_audit · · Score: 1

    First, you need enough evidence for a subpoena.

    No, first you need to figure out a way to make the RIAA/MPAA think your attacker is hosting vast amounts of pirated music and movies. Let *them* get the subpoenas and harass your attacker with frivolous lawsuits...

  79. Not so insightful, in the Real World [tm] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It boggles me that so many people come up with so many "solutions" yet hardly anyone comes up with the really important step to take: you backup your data, wipe the HD clean and re-install your OS. No matter what you use; be it Linux, Solaris, BSD.
    Unfortunately, that's frequently not the best choice in real business situations.

    Take, for example, any modern large financial services business: you get 20 GB of encrypted file transfers a day, which your sources delete immediately after sending. You process the data and then your 5000+ telephone'n'cubicle staff work the data from your 50 TB SAN-based data sink. Every day you retire 18 GB or so into archival media and do your backups from a snapshot (since your db runs 365/24 except for scheduled patching and the 5-minute sthudowns for snapping).

    You figure out you are compromised due to IDS or firewall alarming. Initial analysis shows you've been infected for an indeterminate amount of time, because with modern staffing practices nobody can watch the IDS all the time. You don't know which of your backups are infected, and restoring completely from backup is easy for the desktops (you ghost multicast all 10,000 of them simultaneously, because you have a reasonably intelligently engineered infrastructure that allows that) but extremely difficult for the servers and data - because you have 20 GB incoming daily, and the further back you go the more you have to re-integrate intervening days' files, and the more of the constantly changes implemented by staff you will lose.

    (Look, ma! I spelled "lose" correctly!)

    Better option is stealthily tracing the intrusion to its source, breaking down the door of the criminal, and shoving lit bamboo slivers under his toenails until he agrees to help you remove his rootkits etc. Once the systems have been sanitized, kill him quickly and humanely; there's no need to be a dick about it.
  80. "Common sense" can be sometimes be VERY wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The parent demonstrates a huge flaw in Anonymous Coward's logic the post before it:

    Sometime what seems like "common sense" is just plain wrong and even damaging.

    AC said in step 2 "use ice to cool your hand" and then added with sarcasm that they never would have figured that out on their own. However, if the burn was severe, that step could lead to the loss of skin (or limb!) Cooling a burn may seem logical, but its not the whole picture. In common cases, you probably do not need to worry about thermal shock, but it sometimes makes every difference. This is why we have professionals who know these things; that's why step 3 "seek medical attention" actually comes second.

    Two examples. If you work outside in very cold whether, your exposed skin may freeze (i.e. frost bite). You will probably not notice the dying of the skin due the numbing the cold has on the nerves. However, go back into a warm area and, as the nerves return to normal, the pain will hit. The solution to save as much of the exposed skin/limb as possible is to return heat to it slowly-- place it in COLD water and let the water gradually come to room temperature. If you place those frozen fingers of yours until a hot tap, you will probably find 2 things: (1) you will suddenly be in extreme pain as your nervous system goes into overdrive; (2) your fingers will begin dying further and faster and probably have to be amputated as a result. Again, this is why you would consult a medical professional, in this case an ER or 911 (as I would consider this an emergency) and ask for advice rather before trying ANY fixes.

    The other example (a non-emergency one). If you get blood on a garment, you may think that since hot water absorbs better, than you should put the garment in hot water. However, at temperatures just about the human body, blood "cooks". Put the garment in hot water and the blood will cook and probably never come out. Bleach? Bleach causes a chemical reaction that reduces blood to a green residue. Put the garment in bleach and you will end up with a green stain that will probably never come out. The solution here is to place the garment in cold or ice water and let the blood diffuse out. Then its safe to clean normally.

    I'm sure there are hundreds or thousands of such gotchas out there, but this should prove a point: when something is really important, it is best not to assume things. Consult experts-- multiple if possible (as even experts make mistakes). Nothing covers bases like an open dialogue. Ultimately, consult because the price of being wrong may be too high.

    Peace out.
    --Dave

  81. Story's author writes back by darkreadingman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As the guy who wrote this story, just wanted to say thanks to all posters for some excellent discussion. Most of the criticism has been both valid and useful, and we'll try to keep some of these comments in mind for future stories. I also offer a special note of thanks to those who offered extra insight -- I'm the first to concede that a short story like this doesn't cover all the angles on a complex subject like this. Also a really big thanks to those who flamed the critics on the story's behalf.:) If you go through this entire thread, as I have, you'll find a fascinating array of opinions on what to do in the event of a breach, including some that are diametrically opposed. I think the spectrum of views on this proves that it's not all "common sense" stuff that everybody knows. There are some real questions on how to proceed after a breach is detected. I've done my best to summarize some of the comments and offer a few thoughts of my own in today's blog http://www.darkreading.com/blog.asp?blog_sectionid =327&WT.svl=blogger1_1. Hope we can continue the discussion.

    1. Re:Story's author writes back by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      The fact that a bunch of people on a message boards both supported and opposed you does not make you any less wrong and unqualified to give advice about incident response.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  82. TROLL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mod troll