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HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux
darkonc points us to a writeup on linux.com about a very Linux-unfriendly policy at HP. A woman bought a Compaq laptop and loaded Ubuntu on it. Some time later, still well inside the 1-year hardware warranty, the keyboard started acting up. An HP support rep told her, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation. (Linux.com and Slashdot are both part of OSTG.)
What does software have to do with a hardware waranty?
That's ok.
Linux vendors will dishonor warranties if it is run on computer hardware.
..the warranty on your car is invalid if you let someone smarter than you drive it.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation.
Translation: Gateway and Dell definitely won't honor the warranty and wish to remain free from bad press until they are forced to reveal the truth.
and surprising to me at the same time - HP always seemed to be "one of the good guys", fostering and supporting GNU/Linux and free software on many occassions (for instance, HP provides the quite powerful infrastructure for kernel.org).
I was going to go buy a HP notebook some time later this year, but as things turn out this way, I'll stick to Lenovo/IBM once more again...
:%s/Open Source/Free Software/g
YTARY!
If Linux probes your hardware (monitor) and selects the incorrect settings, could that not potentially harm your screen? I am not saying Windows is not capable or the same problem, but at least you are not trouble shooting an entire OS. How does the woman know that she has not messed up some keyboard setting on Ubuntu? I would not want to be the tech who must troubleshoot over the phone a system which has a different OS than that which is installed. I love Linux, but you have to draw the line on troubleshooting somewhere.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
No! That is an old myth about linux. Have you tried it recently ?
I had the keyboard start acting up as well on mine. In addition the hard drive crashed sometime later.
In order for them to do ANY service on it..
A) I had to replace the hard drive with one that worked.
B) Install windows on that hard drive
C) Submit laptop to HP to get the keyboard fixed.
D) Get Laptop back..
E) Put bad hard drive back in
F) Ship it back to HP in order for them to fix the bad drive.
I pretty told them to pound sand and bought a keyboard replacement on ebay.
I will NEVER own another HP again.
Oh well. Stop buying HP then. Fuck 'em.
As for your current problem, lie. Double fuck 'em. Tell the support rep you were mistaken, the machine having a keyboard problem has never had Linux. Any Slashdotter should be able to BS through a Windows troubleshooting session, and if they want you to run some app and send results, bite the bullet, tell them you'll have to call back later, backup, load Windows, get your hardware, and restore.
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
Gateway honoured their warrenty with me when my notebook's vidCard started acting up. I had Gentoo Linux dualed with XP on it at the time. I was actually past the 1 year warrenty by a few weeks too.
Why not reinstall XP, complain again, and then when it is fixed, reinstall ubuntu, they wont be able to tell, granted, it will take a while but i pressume you can use the license key that came wiht the machine
Isn't there a part of the uniform commerce code about warranties only being voided by what you do to the product is the reason for its failure?
I mean if I buy a car and replace the breaks and several months later the air conditioning goes out, they can't void the warranty for what I did to the breaks.
Seriously. If there is no exclusion in the warranty proper -- then tough. HP is avoiding their contractual obligations. And because it would be easy to prove more than a few people use a different OS on HP computers they are possibly in a world of hurt.
(Of course the settlement for the lawsuit will just be a coupon to HP buyers and fees to the attorneys, but that is another matter).
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
they also will not honor the support warranty if you switch XP versions.
I bought a laptop several years back at Best Buy, but it only had XP Home on it. I did the usual dump and reload, and installed XP Pro using one of my spare open licenses. I tried downloading the drivers like I do for every other brand, only to find they didnt exist.
I called support to find out how to get the windows drivers, and was told that they warrant the unit as a whole, and if ANY different OS is installed, they wouldnt talk to me. He did say that after running the restore utility to recover the factory load that it would be valid again.
Turns out that if anything ever happened to that laptop's software, the course of action would not be to fix the driver, etc, but to wipe and reload from scratch.
Thanks for nothing HP.
The next day I took it back to Best Buy and exchanged it for a Sony.
There are loads of them[1], they'd almost certainly love the business. Dell, HP etc don't really want Linux, they have to be forced, it's just extra hassle for them. So why buy from them?
Personally I think it's simple laziness. Dell and HP are easy, you just follow the marketing, no need to think at all.
[1] And they're on Google, so not exactly difficult to find.
Deleted
your average Linux user will put in the restore disc and say "Linux? What Linux? The keyboard is broken in Windows see! These are not the penguins you are looking for".
Oddly, Sony treated me quite kindly when my video card was having problems. It may have been because the tech support rep I had been forwarded to was a fellow Linux user, and understood that the problems I was having and the diags I had performed pointed very firmly to a hardware problem, not a software problem.
Seriously, if you have a fairly open and shut case of hardware failure, then there is no need to tell the person on the other end that you're using Linux. If your machine has to go back to the shop for repair, then slap the "restore" copy of Windows on it (assuming it's not too hosed to even boot off of CD) and send it back more or less the way you got it. If you don't have backups, well, it sucks to be you because most of the times the RMA guys won't save your data either.
However, if in the process of reinstalling the backup copy of Windows everything starts working again, well, maybe it was a problem with Linux after all.
I read the internet for the articles.
Do you really find name of that OS in hardware warranty terms? As that seems very unlikely, person, that was speaking in the name of the company, must have got something wrong, and you could hope his management is more informed about those terms.
Servant of karma
Buy a separate extra hard drive for internal use (probably even larger capacity & higher RPM than stock), and install it yourself, and save the original hard drive with Windows in case you have to send it back for repair.
I do the same with MacBooks. It also offeres you the way to keep your private data from ever going back to the laptop mfgr during a repair.
If she squawked up the chain, she'd get a new keyboard.
They have that policy because once some guy installs "random distro", and the wifi, or some other device "stops working", there's no way to troubleshoot that over the phone.
I wind up with that problem myself. It's hard with linux to know if the hardware has failed, the drivers have a bug, if they're configured incorrectly - or simply don't work at all. Especially when you're talking about that NDIS-wrapper crap.
I have a machine taht will randomly freeze up X - you can still ssh in, but X freezes. I dunno - is this X, nvidia's drivers, or the card? I dunno. Works fine in windows, so at least I ruled out the last option. I found a thread somewhere pointing to it being a bug. Like I said, I dunno.
Solution? Have a windows partition, even if it's on an old 3 gig drive - to be able to prove it's hardware that failed.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I bought one of those desktop replacement laptops from HP a little under a year ago. It's one of those that supports two hard drives. I bought a second hard drive (locally) and put Fedora on that. Glad I did it that way - If I have some sort of hardware problem with the machine (keeping my fingers crossed that I don't), I'll be sure to pop the other hard drive before I send it in.
Still, it seems like HP is loop-holing here.
Why bother telling them which OS you run if it's anything *other* than what came pre-loaded on the system? If I had a hardware issue, big or small, and I called Tech Support for a place like Dell, HP/Compaq, etc, and they asked what I was running for an OS I'd happily lie to them and tell them it was Windows XP or whatever came pre-loaded.
It's the same thing dealing with Tech Support idiots in other countries who can't deviate from a script. They ask if I've done X, Y, Z and I gladly pretend as though I'm going through those exact steps until I reach the point in their script where they either need to escalate the issue or issue an RMA or pickup for repairs.
I'm not saying this lady is an idiot, but come on, have some common sense!!! If you call some PC manufacturer with a hardware issue, and they ask you what OS you're running, tell em' it's all stock. Same with cars. These companies work hard to fuck you out of your money and would love to dismiss your claim for support (however warranted), for any reason they can.
In short: "...If someone asks you if you're a God, you say YES!!!"
It's interesting to speculate as to the reason for this odd policy. The keyboard issues cited in TFA are clearly a purely hardware problem, unrelated to software. I've run some fairly iffy code, but I've yet to encounter something that would make my keyboard start sticking (some websites, however...). This policy's genesis would seem to lie in either ignorance or entanglement and I'm genuinely curious as to which one it is. Is it that HP's tech support folks are poorly adept with Linux and therefore officially eschew non-official installs? Or is there some sort of corporate pressure from Microsoft to make it less easy for Joe Blow to run Ubuntu and its ilk?
Given that HP (again, from TFA) sells laptops with Linux pre-installed, the former seems unlikely. The latter is indeed a fascinating can of worms.
P.P.S. I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
I would ask the rep to point out where in their warranty this is stated. If it's not in the warranty, they have to honor the request. If they refuse to honor the request, go to your state's Attorney General and file a complaint. After that, post your comments on every blog you can find related to computers. Nothing gets accomplished more quickly than when bad PR is involved.
As someone higher up said, what does what software one has loaded on your system have to do with malfunctioning hardware?
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
if noLinuxRule not in warranty.Terms:
lawsuit = sueSomebody(HP)
else:
companiesNotToBuyFrom.append('HP')
#(No, I don't know why I did that.)
No HP for me in the future if this is the case. If it was soemthing that actually affected the hardware then I could see the validity.
My wife is looking to purchase a laptop in the next week or so.
Thanks for taking yourselves out of the running.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
There's a warning in x86config when setting monitor refresh rates that warns you that your choice may destroy your monitor. Granted, thats not a necessary step in a lot of installs, and most people have moved to LCD screens that wouldn't explode, but I think they were thinking of something similar to that. Badly written drivers CAN destroy hardware, in rare cases.
Or, the higher level software may shorten the lifetime of hardware. Maybe Linux uses the hard disk more than Vista, which leads to higher usage frequency which causes it to reach its MTBF earlier.
Is it fair, no, not really. I'm sure you could wear out your hardware just even faster with certain applications.
They can't possible start rejecting the waranty, depending upon3rd party apps installed could they? I'm sure Something like Maya or Blender could put a lot of use on a hard disk, especially on a low end system without much RAM.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
I know we don't traditionally rtfa before commenting, but for some reason I was compelled to do so.
This sounds like some underpaid and undertrained phone support guy misinterpreting the general "we don't provide support for Linux users" type rule and taking it a bit too far, to the point where Linux clearly wasn't the problem. The fact that the PR person has pointed out that it's pretty clear that the problem was not caused by Linux and should be considered an exception to the rule andmake that pretty obvious.
As somebody who worked at various helpdesks for a few years as a phone monkey, this is SOP with any company. You can't run through the troubleshooting scripts unless the software on the PC is exactly or very close to the initial load. Helpdesk people are not trained to solve problems, just go through the appropriate steps. So, if you want your warranty honored, suck it up and install Windows. You would have known this if you had read the fine print when you bought the damn thing. If you want a Linux notebook, then buy a Linux notebook. Talk about a sense of entitlement...
I don't respond to AC's.
I break my laptops at least once a year (It seems they aren't really done to be brought everywhere and be on 24/7). Pretty much every time I send it in I have a pretty good grasp at what is wrong and as long as it isn't the HD in particular I always send the laptop in without it so I know that no over eager rep working a script will reformat it without any reason. So far I've never had any problems with that. Just ask if it is ok if you send it in without the HD and they will never know you are running Linux on it.
So, if you're using Linux, they can't work off the script (and HP isn't going to do a script for every flavor of Linux). So it's easier for them to just tell you "You've voided your warranty" than to say "Sorry, I'm just a poorly paid flunky in Calcutta. I don't know jack about Linux or how to help you."
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
The support people use Windows tools to diagnose the problem remotely. It's difficult to do this when the system is not running Windows. Therefore the support people cannot diagnose the system to determine how to fix it under warranty. They simply do not have the process in place to diagnose this for Linux for "normal" customers.
end of line
Laura Breeden bought a new Compaq Presario C304NR notebook in January. She bought it because she wanted to get rid of Windows and all the malware that surrounds it and move to Linux, and her old laptop lacked the memory and power to run Ubuntu Edgy. The salespeople assured her that the C304NR was "Linux ready." But they didn't tell her that running Linux would void her warranty. - this does not say whether she bought the laptop with MS Windows preinstalled. Not like it matters much, just a question.
Until recently, she's been happy with it, and with Ubuntu Edgy. But a couple of weeks ago she began having keyboard problems. The keyboard is misbehaving when she begins to type quickly: keys are sticking and the space bar does not always respond when pressed. - they don't build them like they used to.
When she called Compaq -- the unit comes with a one-year warranty on the hardware -- they asked what operating system she was running. When she told them Linux, they said, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." In order to get warranty service, she was told, she would have to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS. - now this is trully evil (thus my question, was MS Windows preinstalled on the laptop? From the CSR it sounds like it was.) In any case what do sticky keys on a keyboard have to do with the OS?
Laura is not a software engineer, but she failed to see how her choice of operating system could damage the keyboard. Furthermore, there isn't a word about the subject on the Compaq C304NR Web page -- nothing to alert consumers to the fact that if they chose a reliable, secure operating system like Linux instead of Windows, they would lose their rights to service under warranty. - Laura is not a software engineer, but she is at least 10 times smarter than those Compaq representatives, but she is not evil enough.
She bought the notebook from Best Buy, and they did their best to sell her a maintenance contract ($200 for three years). But since the notebook only cost $549, she thought that was a lot of money to add to the purchase price, and she also thought that she could depend on the Compaq warranty. - or maybe she IS EVIL? What? Not paying for the obligatory extra warranty from Best Buy? Evil I tell you.
I've been tracking this story for a couple of weeks with a PR rep from Hewlett-Packard Customer Service, who has been trying to "do the right thing" by Laura. There has been some discussion of swapping her unit with an HP notebook which is available with Linux preinstalled, but after a couple of weeks of back and forth, nothing has changed. - normally 'do the right thing' in large corporations means either doing nothing (best case) or doing something trully evil, like suing the customer for their choice of product.
The PR rep told me, after wading through all the terms and conditions attached to the notebook's warranty, that "it is impossible to anticipate every single issue that a customer can face, so the terms and conditions of warranties can't list every possible scenario. Usually if a customer installs a different OS, it has a big impact on the PC and will void the warranty. - BS. Evil BS. Usually the OS does not do anything intrinsically bad to the hardware it is running, except for using it of-course.
However, since the OS couldn't have been responsible for keys sticking on a notebook keyboard, I think this is an exception to the rule." She also asserts that Compaq's "warranty terms and conditions are in line with the rest of the industry." - yeah, it is in line with the industry of Evil. Sticking keys on a product must be a new evil way that a customer is trying to undermine the innocent distributor.
I have a feeling that she is correct about that. Gateway and Dell have both declined to respond to queries about their own warranty coverage in a similar scenario. Tier one manufacturers like Dell and HP are locked up in double-blind secrecy about their marketing deal
You can't handle the truth.
..a system recovery in order to get a PC returned. As I suspect is the case with most other companies, this eliminates the possibility of it being software. Thing was, though, the place I worked at required a system code that was given when you did a restore. If the customer couldn't provide this you didn't get a return. So anyone who runs Linux on a PC bought from them will have to erase it all just to get a PC returned.
I am pretty sure that the aforementioned woman can sue HP back and get a LOT more than just a new notebook. Any lawyers among us?
I've been using HP laptops for 10 years, home, business, etc. Always seemed like the best bang for the buck. Maybe I wouldn't have cared 5 years ago. However, now, so long as linux voids the warranty, I won't be purchasing another one.
I know it's a paltry sum, maybe 15 total in 10 years.
Linux is actually a supported OS on some Thinkpads.
Vote with your $$$. If HP is screwing you, screw them. Give someone else your money that values your business.
FTFA
" "When she called Compaq -- the unit comes with a one-year warranty on the hardware -- they asked what operating system she was running. When she told them Linux, they said, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." In order to get warranty service, she was told, she would have to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS."
HP didn't refuse warranty coverage, they told he she needed to remove Linux and reinstall the original OS to get warranty service.
That is completely reasonable. The script readers doing the trouble shooting at HP wouldn't be able to trouble shoot a system that didn't have the OS on it that HP originally installed.
Unless the whole thing is staged to generate nerd-rage on slashdot.
/. and linux.com in general.
What proof is there that this event ever happened? I know that HP is pretty hated around
Here's a story: I called novell support, the guy called me a "faggot" and told me to "go fuck myself". I called Apple to order an iPhone and they told me the same thing. They also said the holocaust was a lie! Boycott Apple please.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Immediately after buying a system, take out the factory drive and store it away. Put in a new drive, load whatever OS you want, have fun. When the system breaks, take out your drive, put back the factory drive, and send them the system. This also solves any issue of improper handling of personal/confidential data.
Dave K. Mt. Laurel, NJ USA
Then why not just uninstall Ubuntu and put windows back on before proceeding with tech support. And what about Dual Booting a Windows and Linux distro?
Then putting cooking oil into your diesel powered car and then going to the car dealer for warranty repairs because it not running properly all the time. Yes the car will run on cooking oil but this is not what the cars hardware was tested for and designed to run on.
HP should have a clause on theri warranty card too, although most people would be too smart to follow the rules and yet expect the manufacturer to pony up.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 says HP can't do what they're doing. This law is rather well know among tuners and rodders.
Anyone tried getting a MacBook fixed while it is running Linux?
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
I bought an old Dell laptop for my wife; after a while she discovered the left caps key didn't appear to work. The simplest way to decide if this was a hardware or software problem was to boot with a live Linux CD...
I used to do tech support for Dell. We could not honor the warranty unless the system is in the original factory state. So we would instruct the customer to put the original operating system on the computer. Once that is done we could then troubleshoot the system and replace the part. So what the tech Rep meant to say was we will not honor the warranty with Linux on the system because we can not properly troubleshoot it. So put windows back on it so we can troubleshoot the problem and replace the broken part. I think the customer just misunderstood or the rep did not know how to explain this policy to the customer.
It seems like it would make sense for the manufacturers to make sure the systems supported Linux, if for no other reason than troubleshooting.
If you want to track down a problem on an installed OS, there's always the possibility that the user has done something/installed something that is causing the problem. If they shipped the system with a pre-built live CD (that was known to work with the system components) - when a user called tech support, they could have the user reboot with the live CD. If the problem persists: hardware problem. If the problem goes away: software/user configuration problem.
It seems that would be a quicker way to get through the first cut. If its a software problem, you can then offer to elevate them to the "paid" support to help them through the problem. Otherwise, you can issue the RMA without having to spend the time required to walk the person through the steps of reinstalling drivers and what else.
My guess is that this policy exists solely because a CSR can't figure out how to diagnose even a broken keyboard without their windows only diagnostics. Given that the policy only alienates the occasional customer it kinda makes sense given that the alternative would be somehow getting sane competent intelligent people to answer tech support calls. I can't think of any way to get such a person to do such a job for more than a month without paying them some kind of ridiculous salary. Which would make the whole endeavor fairly unprofitable.
in short this article sums up to
....to void your warranty.
HP computers are Linux ready
I had this problem too when a harddrive failed. I ran badblocks and smartctl against the drive, both reported failures. However, they refused to replace it, as we ran Linux.
After 8 hours of phone conversation and repeated readings of the warranty, verbatim, to the manager, I finally was able to have them consent to accepting the use of their disk-testing utility from a bootable DOS disk, rather than from within a pre-installed Windows OS. They refused to accept the smartctl and badblocks output, regardless of having support for Linux. Apparently, the hardware we had did not quality for Linux support, thus they would not allow us to use Linux-based utilities to prove a hardware failure.
With the amount of time that they spent with me on the phone, it would have been far less expensive for them to simply send me a new drive, rather than waste time debating semantics.
Now install new HDD and the OS of your choice. If the system fails under warranty, switch hard drives and try rebooting. If it works fine, you know you have an OS problem. If it doesn't, claim under warranty.
Assuming you back up regularly, this is a good insurance strategy. I experienced it the other way when an update to Ubuntu caused an unrecoverable video driver problem and I needed my email back urgently. It took well under an hour to reload the Windows HDD, move the Thunderbird data back from the server, and carry on till a fix was available.
Pining for the fjords
They are called Agilent now.
Is this just the start of a new set of litigation against MS for adding such clauses to their contracts with hardware vendors?
In the most earnest of ways, I hope it is. If it can be shown that vendors are not allowed by contract to support hardware that is not running the Windows software it was sold with would perhaps put a final end to the hold that MS has on vendors.
Perhaps that is just wishful thinking...
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
Many times changing out the hardware will void the warranty.
So it seems Linux users are in a screwed/screwed situation here.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I purchased an X1050CA Laptop 3 years ago , which suffered from a common to these laptops problem of faulty hard drive connectors. The problem manifested itself with constant boot panic , hard drive errors. After waiting a month and a half for a resolution, the rep returned the notebook saying that there was nothing found to be wrong with it. After experiencing the same issue, i went back to Staples and really tore up the place. Even then, they fought back with fact that I had Suse Linux installed, and i should uninstall it.
Now it's hitting limelight as more users are migrating to Linux and companies want an another official clause at their disposal.
Needed to send a Linux-running Omnibook to RMA (bad Combo drive - couldnt read DVD's or burn CDs). Solved the problem by using sysrescue-liveCD (which it could read), and just doing an image from the harddrive to another computer over NFS. Then punched in the original WinXP "restoration CD"s and shipped the thing away. When it came back, just restored the images.
First post to say something helpful...
(Please add your own "you must be new here" jokes).
I bought my son an HP laptop for Christmas. He did the 4 DVD restore back up, and blew XP out including the "restore" partition. He boots BSD and Mepis. Six weeks later, the thing would not even turn on. He called tech support and talked to an excellent english speaker in Vancouver BC, who after some trouble shooting said looks like a motherboard problem.
Next day a box arrived from FED EX. He shipped it and got it back in 1 week. Motherboard replaced, not a single comment on the Linux. Good fast warrenty service.
As an aside, the new Mepis 6.5 rc3 makes the Broadcom 4311 chip work with no fiddling around. Finally !
-Jay
For some reason the headline of this article reminds me of this video. Call me crazy, but I think there are strong similarities.
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
A woman who installed Linux?
Can I get her phone number???
Please?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Shouldn't they test this stuff by booting from CD? I don't see why this would be a problem!
I'm sure most laptops have a diagnostics CD.
SHIFTKEYBROKENTOO.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
95% of the time you can figure out what they're asking you do to and lie too. "No, reinstalling the driver didn't help, my network card still doesn't show up.".
If it's too much of a problem, backup your current system (backups are good), toss that reinstall copy of Windows on there, and go through the motions. I should mention that I virtually never call the support folks though unless it's a real problem. I hate going through 20 things that I've already tried just to get them to admit that yes, it is in fact busted.
I read the internet for the articles.
The smart thing for a manufacturer to do would be to provide such a diagnostic, either on a partition or bootable CD and insist that the customer use this when interacting with tech support. Then the O/S (and multitude of possible registry settings) becomes a moot point.
Have gnu, will travel.
I usually recommended HP for laptops to family and friends (my brother and father have one each one because of that... for that I am sorry now), and I also own a ZV5000LA.
My problems started when the hard disk crashed in the UK and I talked with the service guys in order to *BUY* (because you must buy them, the mother fuckers wont send them for free) a copy of the "rescue" disks with a Windows XP professional installation which license I've got in a sticker under the Laptop, they said that they can not send me the UK version and that HP does not ship internationally... I asked the technician, what should I do then? and his answer was that I would need to buy a RETAIL version of windows XP, I asked him what about the license in my HP and he pretty much told me it was useless.
So yeah, HPs are not fine computers, they aren't also Open Source friendly (shitty boradcom Wireless hardware which just do not want to work under any linux distro... after trying everything [including THAT ubuntuforums link which you are about to reply with]) ATI graphics card WITHOUT ATI propietary drivers (unlucky 9100 mobile graphics chip owner).
So, to the hell with HP, and Toshiba... and Dell... fuck, we need a good Notebook/Laptop manufacturer (with worldwide distribution of course... and not costing an arm and a leg).
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I've seen over the years how this or that computer related company will ONLY support the product on a Microsoft Windows system even in the case of no REAL requirement for such. It is why I recommend anybody needing to deal with such a situation should just shrink the existing OS partition down to its smallest operational size and either leave it there or, back it up off to another disk and reuse the partition until it might be needed to restore to and get the support paid for.
What Microsoft has done to protect its monopoly is to pay vendors for supporting the Microsoft products those vendors sell. The payment is legal and is often looked at as a reduced cost for those Microsoft products purchased. Now you probably see how this falls apart for open source software since there is still a support cost but no software cost and nobody to help pay for this support.
So, until these businesses figure out how to provide open source software and still support their customers, for the duration of the support period, it's best to have that backup available.
I wonder if running the original software in a VM would have been enough for this particular case. It was a freaking keyboard problem for goodness sake. How much software is involved in making THAT work!
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
This is one of the reasons why whenever I buy a PC I never remove windows. I just shrink the partition to it's minimal size plus a GB or two, install linux, set it to default. Sometimes I even remove Windows from the grub menu.lst so I can't choose it by accident :)
There are several reasons you should not uninstall windows. One is what this article is about, warranty support. If you ever have a hardware issue you can just delete the linux paritions (after a backup) and ship the thing; unless the tech has some weird reason to do forensic analysis on the HD they will never know it ever had linux on it.
There are other reasons too - wine works better with some applications when you can point it at some actual windows DLLs. Also, you have the ability to boot into Windows to play the occasional game or other multimedia nonsense that don't work in Linux.
Really I don't know why someone who bought a PC that came with Windows, which THEY PAID FOR, would just go erase it anyways. It's a total waste of money, and you aren't sending anyone a "message".
Disk space is dirt cheap. Until you can buy PCs barebones with the Windows tax removed, IMO it is ill-advised to un-install.
Real Translation: If you plan to use linux and want warranty support, buy from a vendor that supports your freedom to do so.
It would be ironic if they discontinued support for you if you installed Windows on one of these machines ;-). I do, however, doubt that is the case.
Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
HP sells 64bit Linux machines. Do they refuse to honour the warranty if the user wipes it and installs windows on it? If that is the case, then you chalk it up to generic corporate lunacy not a specific anti-linux lunacy.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
I use Linux, but the makers are under no obligation to make sure it works. "This software comes with absolutely no warranty to the extent allowed by applicable law". So HP probably figure that they have been given no assurance that the software you tried to use with their hardware works at all. So any problems you raise with them alleging it's hardware-side, they could say why should we spend money looking into it when it might equally well be a software problem?
I recently (a year ago) got a HP Pavilion dv8000 series laptop. I noticed that on occasion the thing acts like keys are stuck. I can assure you they are not. This problem was in both Linux and Windows. After I found a wireless card that worked well with Linux (the built-in Broadcom chip is poorly supported and crashes the system alot in Linux), everything was great, except now I find that the sticky-key problem happens without fail whenever there is significant network activity over this wireless card. The mousepad is also terrible - it seems to have to keep resyncing itself, and when network activity is high on the wireless card, using it can cause some pretty wild mouse movement and/or click events. A co-worker has a very similar model to my laptop, and although he only uses the WinXP version that came on it, it definitely exhibits similar issues. So basically, the stability of HP's hardware is fragile, and using it with Linux only highlights this.
I discussed these problems with the HP support staff, and got the best non-helpful response you can expect. Basically, they have no clue what's wrong with the hardware. I didn't find the problem enough of a hassle to return the laptop, but I'll be much more selective with my next one.
This article possibly only reflects that HP support staff have had enough support requests to learn that HP's hardware+Linux is a bad combination.
Back when I was young and stupid, I was a helpdesk person for Compaq (with an average 96% first call resolution, yes, compaq sucks). In a situation like this, Compaq was legally required to support the hardware, but not the OS. Troubleshooting was not likely as far as software/software interaction with the hardware (although I had a friend there who was quite adept in Linux and helped out anyone he could, much to the aggravation of the supervisors). We were, however, allowed to decide if the issue was hardware or software related. Sounds like her tech support representative has an attitude problem. See also: hose 'n' close.
http://wstewart.php0h.com - the sugarbuzz project blog
Nobody has hardware diagnostics any more. It used to be that when you had a hardware problem, you booted the hardware diagnostics disk and ran tests. Better manufacturers provided you with such a disk.
Today, most of the "PC diagnostic" tools run on Windows, which assumes Windows is 1) installed, and 2) will run. This makes sense, because Windows is most likely to be the defective component.
From TFA: The salespeople assured her that the C304NR was "Linux ready."
If true, this is an implied warranty for fitness for a particular purpose (which is, in some states, a right that cannot be taken away from you even if the written warranty excludes it, and even if you sign a document saying you give up such rights), and the original place of purchase is liable for deceptive business practices if, indeed, HP's warranty states you cannot load another operating system on the machine.
Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
Linux dishonoured when installed on HP hardware.
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
Once upon a time I worked for Sony and performed tech support for their PC's. Here is the way it works. The company has a policy, they only support the operating system the machine was shipped with. This means if the machine shipped with WinME then only ME would be supported on that machine. If the customer later upgraded to 2000 or XP it would void the warranty. All we could do, as a courtesy, is direct them to the appropriate drivers for that version of windows on the website. However, this only voids the software warranty.
Here is the problem. If you have a bad motherboard with a flaky usb port. As a Sony tech rep there is a troubleshooting routine I am required to go through before I can issue an RMA on that hardware. That routine involves a number of windows based steps. If you aren't running the shipped OS AND the same VERSION of the shipped OS then I am not allowed to go through a troubleshooting routine with you.
Unless it is a case of clear hardware failure, you would have to perform a complete system recovery before we could help you. If you didn't have the discs then I could refer you to where you could buy a replacement copy for $40. If you didn't want to lose your data then your SOL, the first thing the repair center does when you send in your PC is a complete system recovery anyway.
Technically your hardware warranty isn't voided by installing another operating system. But it may very well effectively be voided since I can't go through the troubleshooting procedures required to issue you an RMA.
Shazbot, not early enough in the thread to help... sigh.
I had a similar experience. I configured my HP laptop to dual boot, absolutely loved the machine. But the opening and closing eventually loosened the video display connector so badly, you had to hold the display at just the right angle to get it to come on and/or stay on. I called HP support, and through painful session lasting more than an hour someone pretending to be able to speak English (this was one of the reasons the call lasted so long -- repeatedly had to ask for instructions until I could understand), I had to jump through all of their hoops which included, but was not limited to:
Of course I'd long since tried everything the support tech offered, but he would not let me go to the next level until I'd completed his script. Somehow during the course of the call I'd let slip I had the machine up as dual-boot, and that's when the whole dialog and relationship went South.
When he heard it was a dual-boot machine he said the machine would not be covered under warranty, as that may have been the cause of the problem. I pleaded my case, he wouldn't budge. I asked for his manager, he put me on hold ostensibly to do that, but I got disconnected.
I re-called the help center, got someone who spoke only slightly better English, and who, surprise!, had the notes from my previous call. There was no going back on my dual boot debacle. He too declined any warranty support, and he too somehow lost my connection when "going for his manager".
Fuck it. I went to the HP on-line site, found contact info for the corporate offices, called that number (don't remember which one), and got someone in Texas (she said so). I described my problem, and why I thought it was a hardware problem and was unrelated to the dual boot setup. She immediately agreed with me, and said they would cover the repair if it turned out to be hardware.
She cautioned that when it arrived for warranty work at the labs it was common for them to completely format the hard drive when doing diagnostics and advised that if I wanted to be sure of my machines integrity to remove the hard drive and ship it sans disk drive. She agreed if the hardware problem was as we guessed, it would be repaired under warranty, no questions asked.
I sent it, they fixed it, done! It was a headache, and the extra kind treatment and effort from the last tech elicited a thank you call from me to her manager for exceptional cool under pressure (I was pretty hot by then).
For me, the problem was less with HP's willingness to support and more with the outsourced, pseudo-english speaking work force ostensibly to provide me with support. It doesn't work -- they don't get it, and it has really hurt HP's reputation with me... I've since purchased and owned 7 more computers, and not one of them has been an HP. Their loss.
Dell pulled the same thing with me a long time ago. I had a Pentium 2 running Red Hat 7 or so and Windows 2000. The Ethernet card died while under warranty. Dell support refused to replace it because I didn't have the factory installed OS (Windows 98). So it may be more of an running any unapproved OS, not just GNU/Linux.
I went through several levels of tech support before they finally told me that if I had a problem with the warranty, I could talk to their legal department. I decided that the best solution was to not do business with Dell anymore.
This was while ago, so it is possible that they have changed their policies for personal support (not business where I hear they are better), but I doubt it.
Try changing your car's engine and taking it back to the dealer for warranty service. What do you think they'd say? They support what they sold you. End of drama.
IANAL, but this same issue has come up before. I'm sure someone will let me know (specifically, with citations please) where I am making incorrect assumptions.
I visted the FA and saw a comment from an alleged HP employee defending this policy. The following is my response to him. See the comment link for the full text of his comment.
...babble above, content below...
If your friend changed the seat belts to street legal parts, then he was protected by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. The following is the specific text of the US Code which specifies this protection:
In other words, assuming the warranty service had nothing to do with seat belts or their mounting hardware, OR he used street legal parts (and using DOT listed safety harnesses is quite legal, even on the street - replacement hardware must MEET OR EXCEED OE specifications) then it was quite illegal to deny him warranty protection.
By the same token, it is QUITE illegal to deny someone warranty protection because they are using an operating system which is different from that shipped with the unit unless it can be shown that the system will not work properly with that other software installed. Since Linux is no more likely to cause hardware failure than Windows, it would be trivial to prove that this is a violation of US Code (TITLE 15, CHAPTER 50, 2302 (c)) and your employer would lose a fat sack of cash in a lawsuit, to be followed by a bigger sack of cash in a class-action lawsuit for anyone who purchased an HP laptop, etc etc.
The machine should be booted with a diagnostic LiveCD for testing. You cannot assume that hardware problems are actually real problems until you test with a known good software platform. This argument is complete nonsense.
See my last point. (I found it useful to respond to your points in psuedorandom order.)
Those deals are an example of price fixing and bringing them up is the most specious argument in the whole comment.
HPQ's policy on Linux and warranties is quite blatantly a violation of federal law.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As far as I can tell, the exclusion of support for Linux is not disclosed prior to sale. If it isn't, it looks to me like a breach of contract by HP. Furthermore, if the exclusion is disclosed prior to sale, it is probably enforceable to the extent that the OS you run is reasonably related to their ability to repair it, e.g. cases where they need to run diagnostics that run only under MS Windows, but a blanket exclusion that applies even to things that have nothing to do with the OS, e.g. bits that have broken off, visibly cracked boards, defective keyboards, blown power supplies, etc. is unreasonable and, I conjecture, unenforceable. I'd love to see what a lawyer thinks of this.
On another point, several people have suggested restoring MS Windows temporarily to get HP to repair the machine. The last two machines I bought from HP, one a laptop, one a desktop, did not have restore CDs. They had a "hidden partition" on the hard drive. If the hard drive fails or you lose access to it, there is no way to restore MS windows short of buying it separately at considerable expense. My understanding is that all HP machines are provided without restore CDs. Is this incorrect?
The cost of a single keyboard may be outwieghed by the cost of the negative press, but is the cost of the negative press outwieghed by the cost of hundreds of keyboards? At one time I worked for a company which made walkman ripoffs. Their policy as far as headphones went was to replace it as long as the custoemr could provide proof of still being in the waranty period, regardless of the condition of the headphones. The end result was that the company was spending thousands of dollars on replacing headphones that had been seriously mistreated, not just ones that had failed. I kid you not, we had people send back headphones that were cut (as in with scissors) bent in ways that they couldnt' bend (without applying intentional force) and even just plain crushed. This was costing the company real money and in all honesty was doing nothing other than replacing abused equipment for free and occasionaly making someone with a legit waranty claim very happy.
In the end the company changed their process to a much more stringent interpretation of the waranty. The end result was a lot of pissing and moaning from customers, but real waranty cases were served the way they should have been and costs for the company went down. In the end, the negative will from the customers who weren't getting free headphones every few months was outwieghed by the savings for the company.
HP may be in a similar situation here.
Keep a small Windows partition around. Edit the grub conf before you send it in to have it boot windows automatically with no delay. Get it back and use a live cd to edit the grub script again back to letting Ubuntu boot by default.
HP included hardware coverage - not Wintel coverage. If the machine had been designed correctly in the first place with the diagnostics in ROM, or on a bootable CD, they would not have this shortcoming in their business model. The fact that HP was too cheap to have sufficient people trained, or even checklists for would reasonably be expected is a major deficiency. It's a hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through.
IANAL but if the O/S wasn't specifically excluded, then they can't deny the warranty unless they can PROVE that my "modification" caused the failure: 1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of this law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle makers brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part: "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name...." (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)). And to the apologists / excuse makers: Screw 'em. The company's job is to get as much money from me (the consumer) with as little outlay as possible, thereby maximizing profit. My job as a consumer is exactly the opposite: To get as much from the company for as little of my money as possible. It is not my job to give a rats ass what their excuses or problems may be, any more than they care about my ability to make house payments or feed my children.
Linux CAN cause the keyboard to fail and this is how: Vista users, as we are all aware, use the keyboard a lot less, especially during copying, deleting, and moving files as Vista has a long built-in-delay to cause the user to wait and use the keyboard less. This decreased keyboard activity causes the keyboard to last longer using Vista than those users of Linux. Because of this long Vista delay, manufacturers can use poorer quality keyboards on Vista-installed laptops, knowing that the keyboard will get less use.
Look, it's never ACTUALLY about what's wrong the stupid computer. In this case Linux has nothing to do with it.
We all understand the warranty people use scripts right? The person on the other end of the line has to stick to that script, and along the way, minimize the HP's costs. This anecdote illustrates that support is a "profit center" by making phone queues and no actual warranty service the means to more profit.
It would, then come as no surprise to find out that there are some incentives for:
1. finishing calls as quickly as possible.
2. Minimizing HP's costs. (As in: PHB says, "Congratulations you issued the lowest amount of warranty orders this month! Here's your shiny new pen as a thank you."
Today's lesson: Play along with the person on the other end of the phone. Don't disclose anything about your purchase. If ethics permit, never stray from "I'm using it as I ordered/bought it" and everything will go fine.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
You just bought a computer from yourself? Did you get an 'Invalid use of Null' error on checkout?
HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux
I think what our intrepid article sponsor (and editors?) meant is HP "Refuses to Honor" Warranty if.....
Otherwise, workplaces with HP laptops might start looking a lot like this....
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool. -Richard Feynman
I run the IT department for a half billion plus company. We do not purchase HP or Gateway because of this type of treatment. Gateway once told me that the only software they support on their laptops was the Bios. Even including the software that they bundled with the laptop! Last one I ever purchased from them - and that was 10yrs ago.
Stop buying from these asshats - vote with your dollars, euros, pesos etc.
"Smile, listen, agree, and then do whatever the fuck you wanted to do anyway." ~Robert Downey Jr.
I had the same problem with Dell a few years back (2001, 2002?): I installed a second hard drive, moved my Windows install to it and put Linux on my primary hard drive (the second hard drive was slower - someone gave it to me). I couldn't get the Windows NVIDIA GeForce driver to work after this. I called Dell support, and they said I wasn't supported.
Turns out they have a good reason for this. I reinstalled Windows on my original hard drive, and the NVidia driver suddenly worked. Still don't know why that happened (didn't look too deeply - Linux is still fast enough on the slower hard drive, and NVIDIA driver works in Linux properly).
As much as I don't like these policies, the computer companies DO have a reason for saying they don't support you with another OS installed. The same thing would happen if you moved from Win2K to WinXP. It's not a Linux bias, but a "we didn't sell you it" bias.
keys sticking would suggest to me that something was spilled on the keyboard == out of waranty anyway
This is not at all dissimilar with the blanket experience I have had with HP/Compaq (and sometimes Dell) machines regarding hardware warranty service: that regardless of the problem (including such obvious hardware issues as a faulty battery and sticky keyboard), they required that I do a factory reset before honoring the warranty. This is clearly a PITA, but I don't think its unreasonable -- while I am tech saavy enough to know a hardware problem when I see it, for their purposes in order to successfully diagnose a hardware (vs. software) problem with their psuedo-incompetent service techs it might make sense to require a complete reformat/reinstall to factory settings. In this case, that would certainly not include Linux.
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.
Same here, though I just use a second HD for Linux and FreeBSD. BTW: I just contacted HP through chat, and asked if running Linux/FreeBSD would void my warranty. The answer was that running Linux would not void the warranty of my particular model (Pavilion t.490). It took a minute or 2 for the answer, but, it seems like HP does have some sort of list of Linux-compatible models. 8 years ago, I loaded FreeBSD on a Toshiba laptop (Satellite 320CDT). The first time I used X, I was greeted with a loud high pitched sound from the video-circuit (second try was ok), so I can understand the no-warranty statement for certain problems on certain models. Though I can't understand the relation between keyboard problems, loading Linux and no warranty. PS: During the support-chat, it was mentioned three times that Windows would run best, the computer was designed for Windows and I could not get support for Linux.
It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
...I've had a similar situation with the people who I bought my laptop off, the Hard Drive died whilst in warranty so I figured it'd be easy to get sorted out - it took me over an hour on the phone to various people to convince them that this was actually what I claimed (a dying Hard Disk). How can the fact that I run linux make you trust me less? you mean you would tell me that running linux makes me less able to tell when something has gone wrong with my computer? it's idiocy. Although to be fair after repeating over and over again on the phone to a woman in India that it REALLY was a HD fault I did get them to accept it (before they tried to bill me over 175 pounds for a 40Gig Hard Drive...).
God that was a difficult experience.
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
No! That is an old myth about linux. Have you tried it recently ?
i wouldn't put it past HP to deliberately include hardware that doesn't have Linux drivers.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
The left mouse key (from the integrated mousepad) was flaky on one of my personal notebooks, a low-end Inspiron. So I decided to call Dell (standard warranty, low end system, etc). I've had great experience 'til now with Dell (unlike many other people) - absolutely nothing went wrong ever - it is because I'm in Europe and they have a team of Eastern European guys who want a good "feedback" (in the email you receive afterwards) or because I know exactly what I want, I don't know. In any case they asked me what operating system it is - I said "Debian ..... Linux but if you really want I can try in XP for you". The guy said "well, it doesn't matter, it's just a question in the script. Then they asked me to run some test from "the BIOS" - actually was from one of the "hidden" partitions that I was careful not to touch (but still I messed it up somehow because the test was stopping before doing the "more advanced" tests). He called some "higher power" and decided in the end that my laptop needs servicing and they'll send the packaging material to me then they'll arrange to pick it up and they'll have it serviced.
...
He asked me to back up my hdd but I told him clearly that they're not getting my hdd anyway
But that's just it, unfortunately too many "techies" are morons nowadays. Particularly in the UK where the market is flooded with people who have moved over from dying professions such as mining using goverment funded courses which really don't teach much more than the ones my grandma gets free in her old age so she can learn to send e-mails and type letters.
As a result of this you end up with morons on helpdesks so HP/Dell/Gateway's real problem is that they hire these very incompetent staff you speak of whom are entirely unable to diagnose the difference between a hardware and software problem. Outsourcing to the land of the incompetent (aka India) only made this 100 times worse.
My partner bought a high end HP notebook with Vista Ultimate and unfortunately it's only the 64-bit version (retail includes both 64 and 32 bit flavors). For lack of 64-bit drivers, he wants the 32-bit version. Neither CompUSA and nor HP will honor their respective warranties if he reloads with VU32 from VU64. CompUSA went so far as to tell him they wouldn't sell him the upgrade, only the full retail version. HP said they wouldn't provide the drivers for VU32.
At one point the CompUSA manager told him he would call the cops is he didn't stop getting poked in the chest and called names. Some time shortly after that, our relationship with both parties was ended. Too bad, I generally like HP products and we have about 8 notebooks and 4 desktops in service right now (for 17 total staff).
thats why you reload the factory os. The very first time I booted up my hp i called them and on that first call they tell you that if you replaced the factory os with anyother os they will not honor the warranty and you will have to reinstall the factory os before they will help you.
I would think that under the Magnusson-Moss Warranty act that her machine is still warranted by law.
The act says that you can't tie people to only certain products. It's why having your car's brakes fixed at a small shop doesn't void the vehicle's warranty. If you look at Linux as just a part then she should have recourse.
I'd take them to small claims.
It seems to be covered here
"Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
Seems to me that saying use Windows or no warranty is a violation.
Standard disclaimer = IANAL
HP (as a whole) can't hate Linux. I know this because we run HP servers where I work, and their entire Smartstart process for loading the OS onto their servers are Linux driven.
This is a simple case of a helpless helpdesk for the desktop division not being able to peer above the edges of their box, let alone think outside of it. Nonstandard? Exterminate it. Not our problem. This is true of every level 1 desktop support organization I've ever seen.
I doubt you'd get the same response from the gold level guys on the server side of things. Actually, IIRC, one of them used a minix variant to troubleshoot a problem I had with an old LC3, since we didn't want to mess with the existing disks or OS partition.
Is HP as a whole to blame? Yeah, they should get their stuff together. But they're sitting in a field of pariahs at the moment.
It's not the customer's responsibility to ensure that HP or Sony complies with the law, it's the company's responsibility.
Solution: ship a bootable CD to run the hardware diagnostics with the computer.
This used to be the standard for ANY computer, because there's no way to know if the customer's operating system is compromised or not, even if so far as they know it's exactly what was shipped with the computer. 25c worth of plastic to save hundreds of dollars worth of tech support time... seems like such a simple choice.
HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux
How exactly do you dishonor a warranty? Use it as a tissue?
Have you read my journal today?
HP replaced the keyboard on my linux laptop two weeks ago. I have had the hard disk replaced under warranty as well. Where I work, we have 12 HP nc8000 laptops running Linux, and all of them have had hardware replaced under warranty. The original drives all went to hell, and several of the keyboards also broke. The most difficulty I've had with HP's service was when I called to get a replacement keyboard and the HP tech asked me to download windows drivers. As soon as I said Linux, I was transferred over to their "Linux group". These laptops are from the "business" section of their lineup, but I couldn't really find anything that says one line fits under a linux support matrix, and another doesn't.
I just wonder if they make this sufficiently clear before one buys the hardware.
However, this practice is really only possible in countries with rather lax customer protection laws.
At least in most European countries, this practice would very likely be illegal since the customer has a legally granted right to get faulty hardware replaced within a certain time (usually 12 months). This cannot be legally made dependent on what software the customer chooses to run on his computer.
Nothing really but some hardware is incompatible with some versions of Linux. Some users are unable to diagnose the source of the problem. "It doesn't work, therefore, the computer is broken." Free distros of Linux have forums but not direct tech support call lines so it's easier to call HP tech support.
She should have said FreeBSD or something, then they can't argue that she installed Linux on it...
It isn't just Linux. Back when I was dating, my yet-to-be wife had a service contract with Best Buy. I had removed the default Windows ME installation and replaced it with Windows 2000.
The touchpad on her laptop died from overuse. The key physically would not click anymore. Best Buy's goons would not service it because it had Windows 2000 installed instead of Windows ME
I almost needed to buy a new screen too. Thankfully I stopped just short of using the laptop to beat some sense into the tech.
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
A few years ago, there was a story here on Slashdot about a guy who wrote an insider account of working for either Gateway or Dell. I think it was Dell, but it could have been Gateway. Anyway, he told about how he had a co-worker who was considered a tech support genius because his average call length was something like 45 seconds. Every call this guy got, he told the customer "Sorry. You violated your warranty." followed by the click of him hanging up. If they called back and got someone else who actually cared, then that person could work the ticket. His job was to get the customer off the phone ASAP. Management took notice and made him a supervisor because they just assumed that what he was doing was fixing problems really quickly and they had no idea he was just saying the same "Sorry. Not our problem." speech to every customer he talked to. I can't rule out a similar thing happening here.
In HP's defense, my dad bought a laptop from them, and a few months later it stopped posting. After a short phone call with a support representative, who basically took everything at face value, he was given an address to ship the defective laptop to. Two days later he's got a new laptop delivered free of charge.
I think that's the only positive story I've heard about HP's customer service though. It certainly doesn't speak well for them that they'd try to blame a stuck key problem on the software. It makes even less sense that the company would bother to back up that decision instead of just letting the customer have what they want. Apparently it's no longer profitable to make the customer happy.
...by installing linux, you're supporting terrorism.
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
True, all true. It gets down to semantics and philosophy. But, really if the software invokes the __DISABLE_DEVICE_FOREVER_ command.
Did the hardware really destroy itself, or did the software?
Do guns really Kill people, or do I?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
The cooling fan in my Sharp laptop never runs under Linux, only in Windows does it run properly at different speeds.
Obviously there are some hardware ramifications possible...
I use to work for HP, so I have recommended HP to others. Your postings and others that I have seen shows me that HP is less like was back in the early 90's and is more like MS. Bummer.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
looking at this from outside the USA, the rest of us are completely baffled.
She bought a laptop. It's less than a year old. It's materially faulty. Ergo, they sold her a faulty product and are on the hook for replacing it.
The warranty doesn't come into it - why would someone be able to sell you a product whilst disclaiming all responsibility for whether it works or not by not providing a warranty? And in the situation where they do provide a warranty, why would it then be able to set a minimum standard below that which would be expected if there were no warranty?
I worked for Gateway tech support a few years back and if you changed the OS - even from one Windows version to another - the varranty vas kaput. They'll change the policy eventually, but it's certainly no surprise to this call center/sweat shop veteran.
Dishonors != Voids it's normal the only support when supported OSes are loaded with the machine. She just had to load Xp at the end of the disk and request support again. It's a cruel world...
And Dell has always been good to us with warranty returns. I just plug in their Diagnostic Disk and run the Diagnostic. When the error code pops up, I call them and tell them what the error code is, and they ship us a new part. If I can't boot to the disk, I read them the light codes on the back or front of the machine. Before the era of Diagnostic Disks, we had a couple of problems here and there, but lately, Dell has been absolutely fantastic. I can't say any bad things about their warranty repair service with respect to Linux.
It might help that I work at one of the biggest universities in the country, but I really don't know.
Buy an HP with Linux or FreeDos instead of Windows....
Of course this is too complicated for Linux users as it will prevent you from complaining and crying, but it is worth a try.
I have sent notebook computers to HP for service without a hard drive and had the computer returned because it was non-functional and could not be diagnosed without a hard drive.
This cost a diagnostic fee and shipping.
Be very, very careful when shipping in a computer for service without a hard drive. Some places will work on it in that state and some will not. It is not necessarily the hardware manufacturer either - all of them outsource the service work somewhere else and policies differ between places actually doing the work.
Pardon me, but the post was quoting one of the best movies of all time.
"This is Dr. Ray, Dr. Stantz, EGON."
The thing is, a serious Linux user will check out the hardware in advance and verify compatibility, and most serious users are knowledgeable in hardware to determine that there are hardware issues. However, newbies are not. You cannot categorically say that all Linux users know their hardware, because I have seen that this is not so. I have seen new users rage against companies like HP, Dell etc. when sometimes they have not bothered to RTFM.
Several years ago I found myself in a related problem. As someone new to Linux I wanted to get a new PC as the one I had then was dying and I wanted to install Linux on it. Back then there was a lot of press about how HP was working with and was going to be Linux friendly. So I went ahead and bought a Pavilion along with another hd and video card. The second hd was going to be for Linux and the video card was so I could use two monitors. I didn't have any trouble with either, the hd showed up in My Computer as did the video card. The video card worked fine with a second monitor. However when I tried to install Linux I found out the motherboard wasn't Linux compatible. It ended up being one of those combo boards with nic, sound, and video built onto the motherboard and there were no drivers for it.
I spent several hours searching through HP's tech support then emailing trying to see how I could install Linux on it and tech support just said it wasn't Linux compatible and they wouldn't support it. They said if I wanted Linux then I would have to order a PC with it from them. So I'm not supprized they wouldn't support this woman's laptop.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I used to work for a university, when we set our laptops in for repair we kept the hard drive, cd drive, and battery (assuming one of those was not the defective part). They were Gateway laptops, and the university had a tremendously expensive plan with Gateway. However I sent my compaq laptop in about a year ago, I did not want to my data going through the mail, and the problem was not the hard drive, so I told them I was going to keep that part and just send in the rest. They seemed to be cool with that. With out a hard drive they had no idea I ran linux. This does not get around the problem of them asking on the phone, though.
Magnus and Moss Warranty Act.
HP has to prove that Linux was the cause.
My HP laptop broke a few weeks ago, so I sent it back to them (still under warranty). I had Debian on at the time. It came back with a load of new parts, and I wasn't charged anything.
Being that HP now has very strong support for Debian on their server lines. We bought an HP Proliant 150 G3 with 2TB of storage for a very cheap price. We asked for no OS and told the we planned to install Debian Sarge.
Not only did they help us out, they picked our brains about setting it up as an rsnapshot server.
The price was the best part. $1600 for that server. HP seems to be willing to play ball, something Dell doesn't like to do.
The next day I took it back to Best Buy and exchanged it for a Sony.
From bad to worse?
This isn't just a troll. Sony has a horrible track record with forcing proprietary formats on consumers and then not supporting those formats when something else becomes the standard.
:(){
I inherited a Korean Dell Latitude with my new job. I set it to dual boot with OpenSUSE.
My keyboard developed the habit of randomly sending my cursor to either top right or bottom left of the screen. I suspected the "torsion bar?" on the keyboard. A brief look at the KDE desktop did not show where to easily disable the bar nor the X config. I booted into XP and disabled it there. The phone support was satisfied with my diagnosis, not fazed at all about the dual boot setup and arranged for a tech to come and replaced the keyboard. They even arranged to replace it with a US/En one.
I lost the hard drive and installed Fedora Core 4 on it (CDs lying around a nearby office). My cursor now displays as a square on boot and there is a lot of fly-back lines on the windows making it impossible to use in X, but works OK in console mode. The tech did not refuse support with my Fedora Core only laptop, but he did not accept my diagnosis of a faulty display chip on the motherboard. Even though this symptom appeared only after some time. A colleague saw the problem and said he got his motherboard replaced as it was exhibiting the same symptoms. The tech got me to boot with an external monitor attached and the problem went away. He took it as proof that the display chip was OK.
One day I will spend some more of my company's time on diagnosing the problem.
Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them.
I do have an Alpha close enough so my knee can touch it. It runs Win NT 4 and though I don't have it MS did release a version of Office to run on it. I think the only reason Alpha didn't last long was because DEC dropped the ball. They didn't do enough to market Alphas, Amiga deja vu all over again. They also didn't work on FX!32 enough to get it working tranlating software. On my Alpha I was only able to install one commecial app and a few shareware programs.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Clicky.
UpMod Parent, BTW. While I'd agree that a warning that a normal part of their warranty "repair" process could reasonably include restoring the hard drive to the factory state, even if only for their convenience, I don't think insisting on Windows On Board sounds kosher.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
I just installed XP (clean) which replaced the existing Vista install - and HP doesn't have drivers for XP for this laptop - in order to get support I had to order the recovery disks and restore the system. If you want some flexibility in your OS / Software choices, I advise you stay away from HP. I have complained so much about this problem that I am pretty sure none of the people I know - friends and clients will buy an HP for a good long while.
It's not unresonable. If you do a large modification to anything, say replace the engine in your new car, then you are asking for trouble if you want warantee service.
Trouble shooting is hard. There are often layers of breaks that hide other breaks and bugs. Suppose HP fixes the stickey keys, but find that something else keyboard releated is still broken. Did HP cause that problem? Could the customer sue for damages if HP didn't fix it?
Yes, you should be able to do whatever you want with your products. This does not mean you can force other people or corporations to accept and embrace your changes.
My experience with Compaq was that I bought Compaq after testing it with Mepis and Knoppix. Everything seemed to run at the store so I bought it. I had a hard time getting it to get the wireless running even in windows. The wireless card was a micro PCI card so I thought "lets just get a card that Linux supports". When I installed the card and booted the computer, it didn't get past the POST. There was an error message as soon as the BIOS came up saying, "Unsupported hardware detected" and it didn't even try to boot. This was only about 2 years ago. I simply won't buy a computer that mandates that I have to use hardware from the vendor. I sold it and got another computer that is completely supported. I also use every opportunity to warn poeple about such practices.
If thats the type of crap they want to pull with their hardware, I won't go anywhere near Compaq or HP!
My Compaq laptop's rubber feet fell off a few months ago, which is still under warranty. I emailed them asking to get replacement rubber feet, and they asked for my home address to mail them. Instead of a tiny package in a tiny box with the rubber feet, I received a large UPS box in which to send the whole laptop! So I'd lose the use of my laptop for several days just for little rubber things. As much as I'd love to make HP pay for the shipping just because they annoyed me, I need that laptop.
I called them and told them to cancel, asking for their parts department. The parts department took a while to understand what "rubber feet" are, but then they quoted the cost: $41. The laptop doesn't have feet.
At least they didn't get on my case about me replacing the preinstalled XP with XP 64. They should be sued for false advertising if they advertise the laptop as 64-bit then don't honor the warranty if you actually use the 64-bit feature.
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
the laptop vendor may have speced the thermal characteristics of the laptop to windows. linux (or a particular distro) may not have all of the power management drivers and security checks in place, leading to a laptop that runs too hot. as a result, components of the laptop may overheat and fail prematurely.
just pointing out..
Seriously, file a complaint with the Silicon Valley Better Business Bureau at http://www.bbbsilicon.org/. I got nowhere with HP's tech support for a hardware issue I had last year, when they tried to tell me they wouldn't honour the warranty for one of their products because I was in Canada. A couple of weeks after I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, a customer service person phoned me and fixed the problem with a replacement, in exchange for my marking the complaint as 'resolved'.
And what if I install a 3rd party piece of hardware or software which results in installing "unsupported drivers"? What if you tried listening to a Sony audio CD and got a rootkit?
If you're talking about Gateway, you would not get support if you installed anything. Almost ten years ago I bought a laptop from Gateway and every tyme I called tech support once they had the serial number and such the first thing they'd ask is if you installed any hardware or software and if so then "Sorry we don't support that." When it happened to me they won't even go through and try to diagnose the problem to see if what was installed even had anything to do with the problem. The only way I was able to get help from them was to first uninstall then reinstall the OS using the recovery disk then call. And I paid extra for extended coverage.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Playing devil's advocate, I would have to say that HP dishonors warranties because sometimes it is too difficult to determine whether a computer issue is hardware or software related. Which makes business sense if you think out it, HP can't possibly train their technical support staff on how to navigate every possible operating system and every possible problem that can occur within those systems. Although a keyboard not functioning may seem like a stupid hardware problem to you and I, a mis-installed or corrupted OS can mimic lots of hardware problems. I know, I know... It's sometimes difficult for Linux people to comprehend concepts such as financially feasible or what makes business sense, but at the end of the day, companies like HP don't base decisions on geeky customers looking to run their favorite operating system but on something that begins with the character '$'. Sorry.
BTW, Is it me or is Slashdot's CAPTCHA images getting a little too carried away?
First, it isn't like Windows can't get corrupted and mimic a hardware problem such as a flaky keyboard. This is why so many decision trees used by first line techs at hardware vendors end in `reinstall the OS' and call back if you still have a problem. Having Linux certainly doesn't impact this line of troubleshooting except that the tech can say `reinstall Windows' and call back if you still have a problem. They don't have to support Linux to honor their warranty.
Second, they built the hardware, they have a moral obligation to warrant the hardware. It isn't like installing Linux will cause premature hardware failure. I don't know about HP, but most vendors will continue to honor warranties after things like RAM and hard drives are replaced by the user. (Good old eMachines was a notable exception. They shipped their boxes with a sticker on the back warning that removal of the seal voided the warranty.) There is a far higher chance that doing one of those will kill the machine than installing Linux.
... that which can be explained by incompetence. I doubt the phone jockeys could tell what was going on, they just knew their company only supports Windows. To dodge stupidity, one must learn to hmm... bend reality a little.
I bought a computer preloaded with eComStation from http://www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm [curtissyst...ftware.com] I just emailed them and got a reply. They said I could load any OS I wanted and it would have no effect on the hardware warranty (some parts are 5 yr). I did not pay a Microsoft tax when I bought it and I will not be punished later. eComStation user group - http://www.os2voice.org/ [os2voice.org] eComStation - http://www.ecomstation.com/ [ecomstation.com] eComStation preloaded http://www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm [curtissyst...ftware.com] Even preloaded with a OpenOffice.org. Uses high quality ECC memory
In the good old days I remember someone getting a virus at work that destroyed EGA monitors. After hooking up and destroying another EGA monitor, I put in a Hercules Monochrome card, found the virus and removed it.
That's been a long time, though...
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
It's just a coincidence that your username is "user_ecs", and the vendor is eComStation, right?
1) dd the hdd to a image or another hdd ....?
2) dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=1
3) lies about that the system with a broken keyboard run windows and now doesn't boot.
4) get back the repaired system and dd the image back
5)
6) profit!!!!
And she said is using linux........
I guess you're not allowed to be critical of Fedora on slashdot. Slashdot does not delete comments? My ass.
Lets try this again (approximating my first post which was deleted):
I guess HP hates Fedora as much as I do. I installed Fedora Core 2 on a system once, I removed it only a few hours later once I realised it constantly thrashed the hard disk while the system was completely idle. Slackware, FreeBSD and QNX did not exhibit this behaviour when installed on the very same system.
A low quality OS like Fedora has the very real potential to physically harm quality hardware.
Delete that fuckers, I'll just post it again.
"We do not get that here. People ski topless here while smoking
dope, so deontological ethics is not a high priority."
(paraphrased from Steve Martin's "Roxanne")
i had a problem with my HP Pavillion (still under warranty)...i screwed something when i added some RAM...anyway, i had XP and Mandrake installed (it was a few years ago) and called HP: told them i blew up my PC (no boot), they walked me thru a few steps, said F-it, mailed me a box to ship it to them and they put in a new harddrive(might have just formatted the old), the RAM stick,and shipped it back. no questions asked. it is a shame that they are no longer so leniant in their warranty policies. thankfully, i have learned some since then so i really never talk to tech peoples anymore. and yes i still have the PC-it runs SUSE 10 and hums like a well oiled machine.
"You can kill the revolutionary, but you can't kill the revolution."-- Fred Hampton
I had a problem on a Dell box that I used to dual-boot Windows and Linux. I wanted to remove Linux, since I got another box that I could dedicate as a Linux system, and something went wrong, and the bootloader got massively fucked. Nothing could restore it, and the Windows XP recovery CD hung during boot. So, I called Dell, and even after explaining what I had done, the guy was able to tell me exactly what to do (some weird key combination in the BIOS setup), and it ended up running fine.
This was a year or two ago, but I don't see why it would be any different now. Now, this wasn't a warranty/hardware problem, but it makes even less sense that they would help to fix a software-related problem when I quite clearly did something to fuck it up.
I work for Dell.
We'd honor the warranty, without question. We wouldn't help you with the OS, but if we sold you hardware we'd make sure to keep it going. Most of our equipment, our laptops especially, have hardware diagnostics built in just for this reason.
Heck, we even have a small linux team at my location for support Precision Workstations that ship with Linux.
It's... unfortunate that HP did not handle their warranty, but I cannot imagine this is an official policy. In fact, I would wager it was one tech being mistaken or in over their head. The person who was told that should have immediately demanded to speak to a manager.
As a person who deals with technical support, I can state that in certain cases the instructions given by the tech-guy *must* be followed.
For instance, someone has an issue with an application which uses a kernel-mode driver. The procedure is to upate the driver by rewriting the file with a new one and then restarting the system, so that the new driver is loaded (it is the kind of a driver that is somewhere down the driver stack, and it cannot be unloaded without unloading all the drivers above it, so a restart is a must).
The user can simply rewrite the file and launch the program again. Naturally, the error persists because the old driver is still in use. The user is not competent enough to understand that a reboot is actually needed in this case, and it is not done for the sake of rebooting the system (like many installers demand us to).
While I agree with your point, I hope you will not encourage your friends to ignore what the tech-support people say; not all technical support personnel are idiots. It is much easier to tell someone to restart the PC instead of explaining them what a driver is, what kernel mode is, what a driver stack is, and why a restart is really needed.
The saddest poem
The OP does understand that hardware problems are 100% platform independent--those 1% are software/driver problems.
No, I'm sure he meant windows dorks. Like actual idiots that use computers: neophytes, noobs, grandparents. Windows geeks don't call unless it's a real hardware problem either. That's what makes them geeks. The difference between Linux dorks--read idiots--and Windows dorks is that Windows dorks call HP and blame them, where as Linux dorks ask really stupid questions on the Linux support forms. Even the newest Linux users know that they will be unsupported onces they move to it, so they get support in the proper channels first. The geeks on the forums tell them if it's hardware or software, and if it's hardware whether they should call for support. Head over to www.ubuntuforums.org and look at all of the idiots who know absolutely nothing about computer hardware. They aren't calling for support, they're bothering us, which is fine. The forums are one of the official support methods listed on the download site. You'll find the same thing in any linux support forum. Windows dorks have no obvious place to turn to for support online, so they tend to call tech support when anything is a little weird.
You're a Windows Geek. There's no need to take offense.
"I suggest that anyone having hardware issues with a computer running Linux do the same: explain to the tech support people that the issue has nothing to do with software, and that you've diagnosed the specific hardware failure."
It's been a long time since I did my time on the front lines, but some things never change. You can't trust somebody who says they have diagnosed the specific hardware failure, because most of these people have about 80% less of a clue than they think they do.
Far too many times they were just wrong. And naturally they want others to pay for their misdiagnosis.
Or is that "Vogon"...? Feisty Fawn can get it rid of it, even if nothing else can (or will)...
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
I completely disagree! If you have a stuck keyboard issue, it's such a basic problem, you can often diagnose it from the syatem's BIOS screen, before an OS boots at all! (You have to press arrow keys to move around the BIOS selections, and can typically key in numbers for the time/date info. Page Up/Page Down or + and - keys often come into play there too.)
If your stuck key(s) happen to be keys that aren't used anyplace in the BIOS setup screens, then you could do something as simple as booting from a bootable MS-DOS floppy disk and trying to type from the A:> prompt. Failing even that, most PCs sold today have some sort of bootable CD or DVD that allows reinstalling the original OS. Instead of going far enough to wipe out your Linux installation, you should be able to boot one of those just far enough to allow some typing in it - thereby proving your issue is NOT Linux-related.
The demand that a user wipe their whole drive and restore to the originally shipped OS is entirely due to support reps lacking troubleshooting skills, common sense, and/or being forced to follow strict sequences of troubleshooting rules (disregarding their own skills and ability to problem-solve on their own).
If a company sells me a machine and one of the cost factors is hard disk space, then they tell me that my waranty is void if some piece of software is altered or removed am i really the owner of that hard drive space? Why shouldn't someone pay me for the use of my hard drive? I'd be OK with it if the manufacturer gave me a rebate on the space occupied by the crap they put on there that I am forbidden from removing. This is akin to selling a 2000 square foot house with a giant block of concrete in the living room that I must leave in place.
You just need to have purchased by Visa. If they don't honor the warranty, chargeback time!
HP's policy seems to generally be that the OS gets reimaged when the machine comes in anyhow. I was told this by a rep when sending my machine in for motherboard issues (zd7000 has issues using both RAM slots, Northbridge is a bit flakey). To avoid losing my data, I took out the 80GB drive and stuck in a blank 10GB. Oddly, the laptop came back with another 80GB drive and fresh OS install :-)
So I guess the solution is, don't mention linux, just stick a spare drive in and get a free upgrade.
That's simply not true, legally. Most manufacturers will cover such damage, either because they realize it's unreasonable not to, and/or they don't specifically disallow such activity in the warranty terms.
You're statement is obviously a vague reference to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which says in essence that warranties must be clearly written, and also provides this provision:
Many aftermarket autoparts sellers point to that to make claims which simply aren't true. The above lets you use, say, BrandX oil filters if the auto manufacturer requires oil filter changes (regular maintenance) as a condition of the warranty, but doesn't give them to you free. There is absolutely nothing which legally prevents a warrantor from saying "Your engine warranty is void if you hang fuzzy dice from the mirror." Read your car warranty, it may or may not allow unauthorized modifications. If it doesn't, then it's your choice whether making modifications is worth the loss of warranty coverage.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
once you load linux, you have it for life :)
I always wipe the hard drive before I send them back for warranty repair. I do keep an image so I can re-image it when it gets back.
A few times they actually sent a new hard drive out in addition to whatever needed fixing. I always choose to have the old (replaced) parts sent back to me if it is an option.
This has worked fine with HP, Sony, and Dell for me.
Go here and click the LIVE CHAT link on the page.
First off, I would never buy hardware from HP again. Secondly, I would go down to my local county court house, and file a claim in small claims court for the amount that I paid for the HP computer, then go over to the post office and send the complaint to HP by registered mail.
Total cost, about 16 bux and an hours time.
Now, HP could decided to help you, return your money, or send an attorney to BFE where you live to defend the case.
If they do nothing, you go to court and get a default judgment for the cost of they system. Another hour on your part.
So, they will honor the warranty linux or not, you just have to not lie down for their Microsoft inspired tactics.
Large corporations will try this all the time, you just have to make the effort to stop them.
Cheers
* Carthago Delenda Est *
It may seem like something like this has to be a hardware problem - and it probably is. But I've seen things I was absolutely certain were hardware issues turn out to be software. My girlfriend has a Dell Laptop. A few weeks after the warranty expired, it quit charging her battery, even when off. I tried all sorts of things to get the battery to charge, I called Dell's tech support, posted on several forums, and eventually concluded that this was a motherboard problem and she was out of luck. A few months later, she decided she wanted to try out Linux - her anti-virus had just expired and she saw that I was quite happy with Kubuntu. When I put in the Live CD to install, I noticed the battery was charging. For whatever reason, her laptop's battery will charge under Linux, but not under Windows.
My point is, software problems can appear to be hardware problems. Sometimes switching operating systems will fix this. If I were the customer in question, my first step would be to try another Live CD. If the keyboard works fine on the live CD, I'd assume the problem was somewhere in my installation. If it still had problems, I'd back up my data, restore the computer to factory settings, and ship it back.
I don't see why people expect HP to support the computer without first being able to verify that the problem is unrelated to some third party software that they have no control over.
My company is an HP reseller and authorized warranty delivery partner. If someone brought me a laptop with linux on it I would do the same thing I do for all of the HP gear we work on, troubleshoot it and get parts ordered. If you're going directly to HP be prepared to deal with people that have no idea what you're talking about. You're best bet is to find a local warranty delivery partner (there's a search on the HP web site) and take your machine there. The local guys usually know what the deal is. I've got a crapload of HP servers running linux. Why would HP support linux if they were going to deny your warranty claim? Sounds like someone didn't know what they were doing. If you can't find a decent warranty deliver partner send your stuff to me. :)
Another note: HP has a consumer product line and a commercial product line. Save yourself a headache and buy the commercial line products. The hardware is a ton nicer and so is the support.
Tom
As I remember it, when DEC went belly-up the software assets went to Compaq and the hardware assets eventually to Intel, which buried the Alpha - strong competitor to their processor lines.
Actually a South Korean company, Samsung, was producing Alphas though I don't know if they still are. And until April HP will be selling the Alpha Server. Microway the company I got my Alpha from still sales Workstations & Servers using Alphas. Of course they also offer computers with Intel and AMD cpus.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I have about 500 HP servers running Linux, and this averages to about daily warranty returns. They have never once said that they would not support the system. In fact they have sometimes asked for syslog data, or the output of software that HP provided, for Linux.
This just sounds like some anomaly from call-center people sticking to the script.
Odd that you skipped the obvious English part "USER". Like user of eComStation and customer.
user_ecs wrote:
I bought a computer preloaded with eComStation from http://www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm
I just emailed them and got a reply. They said I could load any OS I wanted and it would have no effect on the hardware warranty (some parts are 5 yr). I did not pay a Microsoft tax when I bought it and I will not be punished later.
eComStation user group - http://www.os2voice.org/
eComStation - http://www.ecomstation.com/
eComStation preloaded http://www.curtissystemssoftware.com/preloads.htm
Even preloaded with a OpenOffice.org. Uses high quality ECC memory
I recently bought an Acer laptop which came with a FAT32 recovery partition and two FAT32 main partitions (one for the Windows OS, the other for data - don't ask me why they ship Windows in FAT32 format - Acer are on drugs, if you ask me). Here's what I did:
1. I attached an external 250GB USB drive, then set the BIOS to boot from the internal DVD drive. I'd put a Linux shell script I'd written to do partition backups on the external drive beforehand.
2. I booted from an Ubuntu live CD, having *never* booted into Windows beforehand. I then ran my backup script from the live CD environment and played several games whilst doing so (gotta love that full live desktop setup). The script dumped bzip'ed copies of the three partitions, plus the MBR and the sfdisk-gen'ed partition layout (and, yes, the script can read all that back and restore - I tested that later on).
3. I then ran the partition editor from Ubuntu and wiped all the partitions off - you seem to have create a small NTFS partition at the start of the disk (Vista won't install onto the first partition, strangely enough), your main Vista NTFS partition as the second one and then the remaining partitions for Linux.
4. You then boot into the Vista installer and plonk Vista on the second NTFS partiton.
5. Finally, you boot back into the Ubuntu live CD and install Ubuntu on the third partition onwards (you may need to go into extended partitions).
When you're done, you have a dual boot system so you can tell your laptop's OEM that you really are running Windows and you'll also have a restorable copy of partitions to wipe your custom install back to factory-new (better than the recovery partition software can do it!), so that they won't know Linux was ever on it should you need to return the laptop...
Are you kidding me? Hahaha... I did HP tech support for US customers for 8 months here in Ontario, Canada. I'll do the outsourced company SOME good by not disclosing their name or exact location. =P Anyway, this has ALWAYS been HP's policy. "You bought a machine with Windows 98 on it? Okay. You still running 98? No? You loaded 2000? Oh, I'm sorry, call us back after you've loaded Windows 98 back on." *click* HP's reasoning? That the hardware problem may have to do with the OS. After all, the OS *IS* the pathway between the software and the hardware, is it not? I'm not saying it's justified, but that's part of their stance on the issue.
In Denmark, where i live, this would be against the law and the company in question would get into serious trouble for doing it.
I am amazed that this is legal anywhere in the western world...
HP has never had a policy of anything but a hard time when it come to any warrenty. What else is new? Look around the net thousands of customers left out in the cold with troublesome systems. HP=Hope and Pray it boots today
At work, we had an HP printer/scanner thing. It was connected to a small Linux server box and stood in the hallway. Something physically broke, like a lump of plastic came off inside or something. Really obviously just a mechanical fault. HP refused to issue a returns authorisation until we had tested it on a Windows box. As busy, well-paid people it simply wasn't worth our while to do this; we would have needed to find a spare PC, install windows, install their drivers, and then say "look, the piece of plastic is still broken off". So we politely explained that our business (about 50 people I think) was never ever going to buy anything from HP ever again, and threw the printer in the junk. And we followed through: we didn't buy any more HP products; when we wanted more laser printers I think we bought Kyocera rather than HP.
The slightly odd thing is that some part of HP is moderately linux-friendly, having produced Linux drivers for many of their imaging products. But that, alone, is not sufficient. In fact given the choice I would rather have support and no drivers than drivers and no support: drivers can be developed by the community by reverse engineering or whatever, but you can't "reverse engineer" support.
Alienware told me the same thing about a box I purchased from them. This was pre-Dell acquisition.
Worst comp. purchase I have ever made.
I had a Omnibook XE3 with an additional (500Euro!) Service contract for three years. As in so many Omnibook XE3 (according to google...), when carried on a bike in a (laptop) backpack regularly (this is speculation), the keyboard failed after two years. I call there, am redirected several times and talk to an engineer. I say that i can wait for some time, but the repair should be sone quickly, so he enters the case and we agree that the notebook is picked up after I call again. Two days later i find a notification in my postbox saying "you where not there when we tried to pick up your package". I ask if the keyboard is actually a fixed version or a new version, support says: no, it"s the same. So I ask: then it will break in two years again. Response: but the three years warranty will be over then. me: I have the feeling that this is a serial mistake and need to be corrected. He promises to talk to technicians. Nothing happens for three weeks. I call again. I am being told: your case was closed. I ignore that the problem is a serial mistake, because i already at that point made the decision to buy nothing from this company for ten years and wanted to have a working keybiard again. After being redirected several times I explain the situation. The support offered me (by himself) to send the keyboard to me and I replace it. I ask "wont this void the warranty?" answer: no, it is a "customer replacable part". When the keyboard arrives i follow the instruction and try to replace it (on an ESD protected workingplace...). At one point i find the instruction not clear and call. The supportperson: What you are trying to replace your keyboard? That voids the warranty.
Similar frustrating episodes happen to me when buying an HP scanner..... it was impossible to get the scanner driver for an englich windows in germany on CD, and i was explained, after pointing out that the website does not contain this driver, that "the support can not influence the websites contents and does not know whom to talk to". (actually they managed after three weeks to send me the wrong driver one more time on CD and support gave me the advice to unpack the package for the Mac, because it would contain the right driver for Windows; it did not).
The rep said they didn't support linux, I politely told her it was surely a hardware issue as the machine wouldn't even post. She said I could send it in for repair/replacement, and they would just wipe the drive to test it and I could re-install linux when I got it back. I told her this was inconvinient as I had work on the drive, and so she agreed to let me send it in without the hard drive for repair (I assumed they would temporarily put one in themselves for testing, etc), and then ship me the repair/replacement without a hard drive so I could put back in my original one.
In my experience, Acer support was excellent, and I had my laptop back in short order.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
..drive we dont like your kind round here, booi.
It seems you are not allowed to expose the horrific flaws of Fedora here on slashdot. Posts are not deleted? My Ass.
So here we go for the sixth time:
It seems HP hates Fedora as much as I do. I once installed Fedora Core 2 on a system only to have to remove it a few hours later as it was constantly thrashing the hard disk while the system was completely idle. Slackware, FreeBSD and QNX exhibited no such behaviour when installed on the very same system.
A low quality OS such as Fedora can definitely cause harm to quality hardware on a system.
So go ahead, delete it again fuckers, I'll just keep on posting it.
If you can see previous versions of this post reply with links and have your reply modded up so that it is visible. To prove to yourself that it is not visible, log off and view this story at threshold -1 and try all combinations of the possible views and look at each page and search for "Fedora", you will find that the original and second posts are gone. I only post as AC on slashdot so that I cannot be gagged with the Karma system, it is pointless to register and post on an account as you can too easily be censored. Though it seems that even posting anonymously you will be censored if your views are objectionable to the editors and moderators.
Perhaps this will convince people that the slashcode pagination is broken and is a sigificant problem.
It seems you are not allowed to expose the horrific flaws of Fedora here on slashdot. Posts are not deleted? My Ass.
So here we go for the seventh time:
It seems HP hates Fedora as much as I do. I once installed Fedora Core 2 on a system only to have to remove it a few hours later as it was constantly thrashing the hard disk while the system was completely idle. Slackware, FreeBSD and QNX exhibited no such behaviour when installed on the very same system.
A low quality OS such as Fedora can definitely cause harm to quality hardware on a system.
So go ahead, delete it again fuckers, I'll just keep on posting it.
If you can see previous versions of this post reply with links and have your reply modded up so that it is visible. To prove to yourself that it is not visible, log off and view this story at threshold -1 and try all combinations of the possible views and look at each page and search for "Fedora", you will find that the original and second posts are gone. I only post as AC on slashdot so that I cannot be gagged with the Karma system, it is pointless to register and post on an account as you can too easily be censored. Though it seems that even posting anonymously you will be censored if your views are objectionable to the editors and moderators.
Perhaps this will convince people that the slashcode pagination is broken and is a sigificant problem. (In the event that my original post was not actually deleted but lost in the broken pagination.)
I see your point here, but what I'm trying to emphasize here is that by the defective product being a keyboard, it's not going to be a software issue, it's going to be something physically wrong with the keyboard. Either the keyboard was abused by the user or something is broken about it that shouldn't be. In the first case, it probably shouldn't be replaced, depending on how the warranty treats this, but in the second case it should. But in either case, it shouldn't be dismissed because the user is running Linux.
I've had friends that abuse the kind of policies you're talking about here, but I don't think this keyboard issue is an example of that. If HP thinks it is, then they should have a more logical reason than blaming Linux.
It seems you are not allowed to expose the horrific flaws of Fedora here on slashdot. Posts are not deleted? My Ass.
c id=18510201c id=18510221c id=18510241c id=18510257c id=18510279
So here we go for the eighth time:
It seems HP hates Fedora as much as I do. I once installed Fedora Core 2 on a system only to have to remove it a few hours later as it was constantly thrashing the hard disk while the system was completely idle. Slackware, FreeBSD and QNX exhibited no such behaviour when installed on the very same system.
A low quality OS such as Fedora can definitely cause harm to quality hardware on a system.
So go ahead, delete it again fuckers, I'll just keep on posting it.
If you can see previous versions of this post reply with links and have your reply modded up so that it is visible. To prove to yourself that it is not visible, log off and view this story at threshold -1 and try all combinations of the possible views and look at each page and search for "Fedora", you will find that the original and second posts are gone. I only post as AC on slashdot so that I cannot be gagged with the Karma system, it is pointless to register and post on an account as you can too easily be censored. Though it seems that even posting anonymously you will be censored if your views are objectionable to the editors and moderators.
Perhaps this will convince people that the slashcode pagination is broken and is a sigificant problem. (In the event that my original post was not actually deleted but lost in the broken pagination.)
The links for the series of reposts to prove this point are below:
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=228349&
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=228349&
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=228349&
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=228349&
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=228349&
Which are still there but do not appear in any view on any page of this story at threshold -1. The pagination is conveniently broken, or someone here does not like what I have to say.
P.S. Each of these posts was made from a different IP address to defeat the asinine 30 minute post flood interval.
Are there no consumer protection laws in your country? No matter what the written warranty says, there should still be a minimum statutory (ie by law) warranty. And a small claims (lawyer-free) court to enforce it affordably.
The warranty of the laptop was not void. HP/Compaq simply doesn't have the support for linux. To ensure the item is indeed broken, it has to be tested using steps in a predefined sheet. The sheet doesn't apply to Linux. Therefore the rep was unable to determine what caused the problem and if it really is broken.
She should have just backed up Linux and reinstalled Windows for the support.
\
My employer provided me with a dual boot (XP/RedHatEL4) laptop, which I use with linux 99% of the time. After little more than a year of intense use the screen backlight broke, just the night before I'd fly to Europe for a week long meeting/workshop where I would need my laptop. At the airport I phoned our sysadmin and described the situation to him. While I traveled he talked with Dell. Three days later, at the starting day of the meeting, a local Dell representative technician came to visit me on site (in a small village near Berlin, Germany) and replaced the screen on the spot. He saw that I ran linux, and he found it cool. No insinuations whatsoever that linux would be the reason for the screen failure, nor that using linux would void the warranty.
I was quite impressed with this level of service (and so were my colleagues).
FC2 went "gold" with a version of the kernel with the memory manager not tuned well for laptops. If you updated to the latest kernel package post-install, the issue would have been resolved. Another quick fix was to reduce the size of your swap file/partition.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I was having problems with my laptop, so i called up HP tech support.
I started to explain the problem, they instantly started to blame it
on a software problem. I told him it is was a hardware problem, because
the problem happened in both windows and linux. He instantly told me,
that because I had linux installed that it would void my warrenty.
Lucky I was able to do some quick talking and say that he misunderstood
me it was happening in windows and safe mode (some how he believed
that).
It is totatly ridculus that because you install something other then
windows you instantly void your warrenty. Yes i can understand them not
wanting to support linux and the tech support to go along with it. But
to void a warrenty, is a little harsh.
Wait, a woman running Linux? No such thing exists. ARTICLE IS LIES! :-P
"Yes i'm opening the dos command prompt now"
ssh me@server
"Ok so that's winipcfg..?"
ifconfig -a
Our original cable ISP only supported Windows 98 and only on a single machine.
Whenever they needed to send an engineer out to fix something, there would be a pristine 486 running windows 98 directly connected to the cable modem. Never mind the fact that right behind it were a pair of switches, a mostly full 24 port patch panel and linux machines whirring away everywhere.
For everything else I hated about Sharp's support -- apparently it's a trade secret where they get their hard drives from, so I cannot buy a replacement hard drive without shipping the box to them and paying them massive service fees -- they did honor their warranty, so long as I could reproduce the problem in Windows. Didn't matter what I had before (and they wouldn't have any of my very useful kernel logs), as long as I wiped the drive and reinstalled the recovery CD...
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
True, but in the end, we're talking about phone support here. Since the support guy at the other end can't see the keyboard, he can't verify for himself that the keyboard sticking means physicaly sticking or that the keys are behaving as if they were physically stuck. I've seen a lot of wierd things happen because of bad software and since software is the cheapest to "replace" it's the first thing that should be replaced in the troubleshooting process. Sure wiping and reinstalling windows doesn't guarantee that they aren't just behaving oddly, but it's a good start and a good bet.
A few years ago I had bought an eVGA nVIDIA 5900 Ultra which started to show lines on my monitor, I called eVGA about the problem and said they would do nothing unless I tested under windows even thought NVIDIA supports Linux. I called back the next day and said I had installed windows and had the same problem but then reformatted they took the card back and gave me a new one. About a year ago I bought a Dell 2405FPW, it had a dent in the LCD so I called Dell to get a new one. They told me that the problem could be with me running Linux(wtf? how does an OS dent LCD screens?) and refused to do anything unless I ran windows. Nothing I could do would change there mind so I ended up e-mailing Dell support who didn't even ask what OS I ran just sent me a new monitor Moral of the story most companies don't know wtf there talking about
So this leaves IBM/Lenovo, for I cannot find a single Toshiba without Windows preinstalled.
Not necessarily. Some years back I got burned for a large sum by IBM. Previously I had very good experience with their service, but that time when I discovered a hardware defect, their service center refused to honor the support contract due to the fact that I was not running M$ cruft on it. Nor would they honor the return policy which was very clear in the law. They eventually won by dragging everything out.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
As a former HP tech, I can say your explanation is exactly correct. Even though I know and use Linux myself, I could not provide troubleshooting instructions for it. If it, or anything else, (even another version of windows!) was installed, we had to run the restore CD's. Don't get me started on those ;)
In another customer service environment involving a well known airline, I was specifically requested not to let their supervisors know anything about what they had done unless I was surveyed and then to say the minimum possible. Going the extra mile to help a customer can do wonders for high level staff but for lower level drones it can bring on more trouble than its worth. However, it is always good to ask.
This shows how much of a HOT MESS so-called "hardware manufacturing" really is.
When Apple sold the iBook G4, it was firmware crippled with respect to the graphics card; so with a little hack, you could unleash the external monitor full resolution without just spending any money. Of course, then "warranty was void" simply because Apple had no interest in you crossing their cheap little money making scheme (i.e. build all platforms on the same hardware line, then tweak the firmwares).
If you run Linux on a particular PC, it may well be that you have to restart into Windows once in order for network hardware to load some driver into some little memory chip; if you then do a warm boot into Linux, your network card may run, whereas otherwise it may NOT run. Goes to show that somewhere in the process of software-hardware-integration, some distinction got lost.
Fact is that hardware is not "hardware" at all any more - it is software, firmware, driver software all in one package.
Fact is that increasingly, hardware manufacturers do not understand, technically (!), how to build a computer where one is separated from the other, and where they know what is going on. Would they understand all of that, then of course, tech support could trace a problem and solve it. That is most obviously not the case.
You now have to be careful with these "big name" companies. They often lack the necessary expertise to (a) combine hardware components well, and (b) understand their combination. Both are required for success in hardware, mind you. That is why Dell, HP, Apple, and so on all try to fool you into thinking that what you buy is modern and well coordinated hardware.
I always felt as if HP "was unable to deliver" in various ways - they couldn't even get their choice of processors right (did you ever hear the nerve wrecking fan noise required to get an Itanium workstation to run cool? did you ever consider price versus performance on these puppies? you wished you were sitting behind a Jumbo jet instead).
HP saying they don't cover hardware that's got Linux on it is EQUAL IN SIGNIFICANCE AND CONTENT to saying "we don't know at all what we are doing; just.. not". You could buy hardware from them, but, would you really?
I never bought a HP computer based on previous doubts, and I have never given advice to anyone to ever buy one.
google "Mandrake LG drive problem" for a good one.
Try to change the frequency of your monitor under any windows version and you will see a similar warning. I bet this doesn't void the warranty if you use windows though.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
I have heard of stories where LINUX has turned off the sun
:D
Those stories are all true. I have personally witnessed Linux turning off about 200 suns.
We replaced them all with better performing, cheaper Linux boxes and saved a fortune on per CPU licensed software as well
I recently RMA'd a Tyan dual Opteron motherboard for having some Windows processes freeze up randomly. Of course, first thing I did when the problem showed up was boot into Knoppix and hammer the hell out of the thing - ran fine for two days straight. Booted back into Windows - same problem.
Okay - Windows went south. Re-image, re-install all the apps - same thing. Updates for every bit of firmware and software - same thing. Debugging sessions with that custom application's developers - same thing.
Finally bit the bullet and replaced the motherboard, and it's worked like a charm ever since.
I've found that a lot of flaky and semi-broken hardware will work perfectly under Linux. Most of the servers I set up for non-profits are actually decent to high-end Windows desktops that aren't stable in Windows anymore, but will run Linux without a hitch for years.
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
Just tell hp or who ever that either you send in your laptop or send them a Court summons
As a former Sony tech support agent, this is standard operating procedure. It is in the warranty statement that you will have to restore your operating system before service will be provided. We had very few tools that would allow us to get around this requirement. With a keyboard issue, unless it's something you could replicate in BIOS a format may be required. After two years of support you really develop a mistrust of customers. In my opinion if she gets a refund I believe she'll make out best. Seeing that there's better than a 50% chance her "sticking keys" are caused by liquid spilled on her computer. 1 sticking key, maybe, multiple and sure as hell there's coffee in there.
So you can talk the tech support person through the hardware problem on Windows.
I had a similar incident when I reported a DSL outage years ago. The tech support person felt she had to ask her supervisor whether my linux telnet worked like Windows telnet. To their credit, they decided it did.
So not only am I going to have to pay a Windows tax (I plan to order with Windows XP home to reduce the cost of the "tax"), I am going to need an additional drive with Windows on it just in case I need to walk through a hardware problem with support. At least that is the way I look at it. BTW, like others have indicated, I think it is just a question of having trained people only to deal with the OS they are trained in more than any nefarious conspiracy.
On a somewhat similar note, I had a Dell extended warranty with on-site service and I was having a problem with the touchpad so I assumed THEY would send someone to fix it. Instead, they wanted me to open up the unit, lift out the keyboard and see if the cable was loose. I asked them about accidentally zapping something with static electricity. They said I should be properly grounded. This is what I paid for on-site service for? I understand they don't want to unnecessarily send someone but when I have to open the unit and start removing things, I think we are at the point they need to send someone. Needless to say, this factors into my future buying decision vis a vis Dell and their service.
I worked HP tech support for quite a while, and this kind of shit is really annoying. No one I worked with had used linux, nor had they been trained on how to troubleshoot it. We also didnt provide support for any software installed on the machine after purchase. How is that unreasonable? The drivers supplied to make the device work are for XP. If youre not using XP, we cant be sure its not a software related issue, and cant replace hardware.
It does not 'void' the warranty, the same as opening the case does not void the warranty. If you want to receive technical support (which my result in warranty replacement of faulty components) we ask that you have the original operating system installed that the machine was supplied with.
Is it too much to ask that if you want to play the game, you play by our rules? car manufacturers dont let you modify the car and keep your warranty, but most let you go home, remove the cold air intake/pod filter you and your buddy fitted and come back to get it serviced with no questions.
Finally, RTFM. Its all there. I know it is, I repeated it constantly to high-and-mighty linux nerds all the time.
when I'm looking to buy a OEM system that will get a different OS, I usually order with the smallest HDD I can, then swap the drive for a large one so that if I have problems I can just revert to the original configuration...
I also have managed to freak out the cablec company's tech when he had to do an onsite call. He checked all outside wiring, then had to check to make sure the connection worked at the end-point. I think he nearly soiled himself when he saw my office full of computers, and several test networks with cables running all over the place... He was quite relieved when I walked him past it to a small desk with the modem, and one laptop... HEy, I know they only support as far as one computer connected to the modem... The other junk is all mine, and it's my job to know how to fix it...
'After seeing the original article, I contacted Lenovo and they said the same thing'
I just contacted Lenovo on 08705 500 900, 1, 1 regarding hardware warranty and they said there would be no change in the warranty as long as I didn't change the hardware. He did say that if I altered the recovery partition then I would be responsible for the software changes. Fair enough.
Obviously if the one-button solution is altered they can't supply telephone tech support on the software. But then If you are capable of installing Linux you can most certainly make your own recovery partition.
was Re:Lenovo said the same, also Dell in-home service
davecb5620@gmail.com
This isn't 'installing Linux renders the warranty void from that point on', which would clearly be ridiculous and probably illegal, it's 'we can't troubleshoot hardware under Linux'.
... but I could imagine that the average user would not be very happy with a report 'hardware worked on our test bed, $50 charge for returning a non-broken machine'.
Which I think makes some degree of sense; I caused quite a lot of fuss to a local computer supplier when I returned a machine as unable to run stably under Ubuntu 6.10, they changed parts and finally got it to a state they thought reasonable, I found that even then it was totally unstable when I ran large disc-intensive jobs on it, and then installed a Feisty beta and found it's worked perfectly ever since.
Driver bugs look enough like hardware faults that three Canonical employees who I happened to know reckoned the issue was hardware; that a modern laptop would use devices for which the drivers in standard Linux distributions are buggy is not unexpected.
OK, HP are large enough that they could easily use a service model where they put a known-good hard drive with test tools on into the machine, run the test tools on that, and test the machine's current hard drive as the second drive in a machine known-good everywhere else, which is clearly the right thing to do
I installed Ubuntu on my New Dell Laptop and about 3 months later the wireless card quit working. I sent it back to Dell for repair. They didn't care what OS I had on it. They fixed it and sent it back within a week.
Logitech is the same way, I bought a wireless keyboard/mouse combination and after about a year the mouse quit working (would go one direction but not the other, don't recall which direction). I contacted Logitech for support and somehow in the conversation it came out that I was using it on Linux... INSTANT discommunication! They came back with "We don't support this product under Linux". Nevermind the fact that it had worked perfectly for the previous year. Nevermind the fact that I didn't have to load up any special drivers to get it to work-- I just plugged it in and did the little radio sync thing and it worked fine. Because, and ONLY because, I was using LINUX, they refused to support their product.
My reaction? After having a few choice words for their support folks-- FUCK 'em. I haven't bought another Logitech item since. Which, while they may not consider that to be a huge loss, in the intervening time, I've bought 3 systems for my parents, 2 for my wife's parents, 7 or 8 for my wife and I, a system for my brother, and one for my grandmother. Every one of them needed keyboards, mice, speakers and other stuff that Logitech sells. And until their "Screw You" attitude towards Linux, I have always been happy with Logitech products. So they're missing out many times-to-one, IMO.
in '99 i purchased a desktop computer and monitor from microcenter in a neighboring town (an hour away). within a year the monitor started flickering whenever the computer was booted, but after several minutes (warming up?) the flickering would eventually stop. this behavior could not be reproduced when using the monitor with another computer, nor when using the computer with another monitor.
microcenter's stated repair policy was that data on the hard drives of repaired computers was not warrantied. if they delete your data, then it's your tough luck. i didn't have a way to back-up my data (my old computer's hard drive was too small and it wasn't until later that year that i bought my first CD-RW drive on sale for $100), so i decided to withhold my hard drive as i was able to recreate the problem with a dos boot disk.
so i took a day off from work and drove my monitor and computer to microcenter. i explained everything to the technician and showed him the dos boot disk i used to isolate the problem. i told him i was from out of town and would wait on the computer and he told me to return in an hour. upon returning he told me the problem was a known hardware incompatibility between the video card and the monitor. he said he would need authorization from his manager to replace the video card with a different one and his manager would be in later that morning.
after lunch the manager finally arrives, offers me an inferior video card replacement ("see, they both support 1280x1024, 16 million colors, with 8 MB memory; but disregard the price disparity between your previous video card and this cheap replacement"), and tells me that if i ever bring my computer back to microcenter for repair without a hard drive, they will reject it.
i've never stepped foot within a microcenter to this day and don't ever plan to. (haven't needed to as every computer since then i've built myself with parts from newegg, zipzoomfly, and other online retailers.)
HP is not picking on poor, innocent Linux; installing any OS on a HP/Compaq machine invalidates the warranty. If your PC comes with Vista and you go and install XP Professional on it, you've just voided your warranty. Says so on your warranty terms and conditions.
That being said, it's a real stupid and completely unfair policy.
Chan, Nicholas" hide details 12:19 pm (6 minutes ago)
to xxxxxxxxxx@gmail.com
date Mar 29, 2007 12:19 PM
subject RE : Pre-sales enquiry
Dear xxxxx,
Thank you for contacting HP Singapore Contact Centre.
Please be inform that HP cannot ensure the compatibility, quality, or performance of Linux software, and HP will not necessarily provide maintenance or updates. HP does not endorse any specific distribution of Linux.
Installing Linux over a Notebook will void your warranty.
There is currently no HP notebooks that support Linux Software.
Feel free to drop me am ail again if there is other enquiries.
Thank you
Nicholas Chan
Telesales Specialist, Singapore Email *: nchan@hp.com
Personal Systems Group Call To Purchase ( 1800-278-0182
Supporting the Hewlett-Packard Agent DID 34463
Asia Pacific Contact Centre Fax: 1800-275-5550
After Sales Support: 6272-5300
HP Order Status: 1800-278-0182 Option: 2 or
Email *: HP.Order.Fufillment@hp.com
Website: http://www.hp.com.my/store
I really do not understand your point.
Whay should anybody make bussiness with a company that is breaking the law so many times?
Why should one not hate a company as dishonest and immoral as Microsoft?
They have gained their accolade of haters with dexterity, denying this is a valid, the most valid I would say, of reasons to luck for alternatives is incomprehensible to me.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I used to have a laptop that came with Windows ME and no wireless card. I remedied both situations, but every time I reformatted that clunker, I had to manually install the driver for my Linksys PCMIA card. Whenever I would do that, my computer would pop up with a dialog saying that the driver hadn't passed "Windows Logo Testing," and gave me two choices: "STOP" and "Continue." They don't need a list of supported drivers, it seems. From what I understand, Microsoft digitally signs drivers that they've tested for full compatibility.
Things'll start getting really interesting when your warranty is voided after installing OpenOffice... You'll probably get a "FLOSS error."
Speaking of firmware updates, why do all M/B manufacturers tempt you into using their new BIOS, when they NEVER, EVER offer some kind of warranty for the results? Even if the new version actually fixes a problem, would you use it, when it voids your warranty (the system might always become utterly unusable)?
Now, concerning the tech support issue, IMHO GNU/Linux (any flavor) is much easier to troubleshoot, since most pertinent functionalities are available in command line by well-known (and I think rarely if never changed) tools-commands, etc. It doesn't seem so difficult to have a Linux-guy take care of such things...
- "I say the whole world must learn of our peaceful ways...by force!!" Bender B. Rodriguez