LOL, more power to ya buddy;) However, considering that the tech you are using still uses his tech therefore anything you create will just go into his pool of revenue generated....;) You could write your own language following your own algorithms but that is waaay to much work.
Here ya go you are running into a classic example of an individual who was taught that abc is the way to go. Rather than parsing the situation as a set of problems and a resolution with those variables in context. In this scenario you are agreeing with Dijkstra in that you need to understand the problem before you can create a solution. Rather than assuming that do-while is the best way to go, as an abstract approach you think...'I need a method that behaves like this because of that', and thus you have started writing an algorithm in your head.
Sorry had to say it, considering that he is one of the fathers of modern computing, his revenue generated far exceeds your own. Consider that the languages you use were all created off of many of his algorithm contributions....He just doesn't get credited except by academics.
Of course, I don't know you - you are probably just trying to explain a thought process, something very difficult to do in the best of circumstances.
Thank you for saying that, don't hear that often on/.
Yes, people who can see things in the sense of constructs tend to be the weirdos because everyone else is to busy flaunting their arrogant knowledge of the details of everything. Being in IT you know these people, they are everywhere. The guy who thinks in constructs usually tends to be the quiet guy/girl in the room waiting until the situation is laid out then responds with a question to further their knowledge of the situation. I bet you are good at what you do because you don't think in terms of.NET only or Windows only. But rather you see a situation and consider 15 different tools to accomplish the job. This is what he is getting at in the paper. He is saying rather than telling someone how to use a tool. Teach them how to see the solution. Working in this manner you can use a variety of variables and constructs to come up with a solution. Rather than just being a 1 hit wonder with 1 language or 1 OS.
I didn't say you were unintelligent. But rather you were mistaken because you didn't understand his conclusions due to your different way of thinking. A person can be substantially successful not following the advice of the paper. Once again you came to the wrong conclusion. Simply the article is an indictment of the current method people use to teach. Just because you were self taught doesn't mean you are better or worse off, rather that you found a way to do what you wanted and in a successful manner evidently. I don't believe you agree that every self taught individual is also rational and well behaved. I know lots of self taught people who have some of the most horrid misconceptions ever. Which is why I find the story in I,Robot about the robots worshiping their God entertaining.
Try reading some of Feynman's books someday, insightful reading and entertaining.
In conclusion I meant no slight to your intelligence, rather that because of the way you see the world and have taught yourself is probably the reason you came to the wrong conclusion of what he was stating.
People should not be studying abstract programming in college in order to learn applied engineering for industry. That's why the CS degree is so disparaged - it is great if you want to work in a university thinking up cool math, but it is not very good at building real stuff.
I beg to differ, I am an Network Engineer. A rather successful one, I have excelled past many co-workers in every job I have been at. I have led several forums in answering various issues networking related that individuals come across. I was taught in a manner similar to what Dijkstra proposes. It has been immeasurably helpful in every aspect of my life. Most students dont remember what they learned in college, at least not the details. However, being taught in this manner allows you to move your knowledge set to envelope tools rather than just know how a tool works. I don't care if I am on a Windows network, a Unix network, or one made out of toast. Because I was taught to see things from an abstract view. This is why while other people get stuck with "this is how dad did it" mentalities, my networks progress, continue to work smoothly,and allow people to function correctly.
There is a reason people are so bitchy about Linux vs Windows and IPv4 vs IPv6. because people cant see bigger pictures and only care about these constructs they have made up. Rather than viewing things formulaic. Which is too bad because I keep having to fix peoples dumb ass setups. It is too bad also because many people spend their lives bitching about how systems and inventions don't work correctly. It is because they are in such a damn hurry they create objects they don't understand and their formula don't work. But they will never understand this and spend their lives wallowing in frustration because they never were taught to look at the computational world correctly.
You missed a lot of the points because you are the product of the individuals he warns about. I cannot explain it clearer than he did so if you didn't understand it then it is your loss. Suffice to say, since you don't understand his premise and probably lack the ability to do so because of your upbringing, your three counterpoints are moot. I postulate you are modded insightful because what you wrote sounds intelligent, but is simply misinformed.
I will second this, my pot belly comes from my love of micro brews. I stand about 6'6" and weigh 280 currently. I bike frequently, can run a 10K with a decent time easy. Of course right now I have some tendonitis in my knees so I have to wait until that heals but I could probably still outrun most of my co-workers with enough painkillers...But then again, I am in the IT world so that is not saying much.
The question is, what do I ask older applicants to get them to demonstrate the value of their experience? A resounding YES. There is a VAST difference between the guy who has been doing the same job for 20 years riding on the coattails of consultants or fear of change, and the guy who has been doing the job for 20 years and has had 5 jobs in that time learning different networks and systems.
I have about 7 years full time experience under my belt not counting college or any small jobs through high school. I have a lot to learn and seek out people to learn it from. I have met truly ignorant individuals, age has no preference here. Wisdom comes with the right kind of experience. I have learned more this last year bouncing around different jobs than I did at the job I sat at the previous 5 years.
So yes, ask the question, and make sure you get an answer from the younger and older individuals, you will find that a couple of your kids with 10 years of experience will far outshine the older guys with 25 years doing a repetitive job. Same for a 5 year vs a 10 year.
Also, of the non-academics with "BA/BS/MA/MS/legal/medical/etc degrees" that I personally know (not to be mistaken for all democrats) I find that more of them are in severe conflict with the democratic platform than republicans are with their platform. Maybe republicans are less likely to look into what their party is doing. Whereas my democrat friends are staunch pro-life, anti-gay, anti social healthcare individuals. It is just weird...its like they are just dems because it is cool to be dem or something.
You definitely have valid interesting points. According to some (brief) research I just did, aka google-fu. Looks like in states that voted democrat in 2004 they had 21% more college grads than Republican states. Supporting your hypothesis.
Of course with gov't supported school initiatives I think that would be a futile area for me to argue on as I am a believer in private schools for K-12. Gov't subsidized loans for the families who cannot afford it. Public school has been screwed up enough (Republicans mostly to thank for that). This also makes the Science vs Religion debate go poof as we will see quickly where people put their money.
I agree that smart people are better at justification than stupid people. I have many friends who are living proof of that. Also think of all the IT guys you know that you would hire in a sec but would never want on your debate team.
I've seen show that one needn't look as far as PhDs and career academics to see the correlation between more education and voting Democrat. Still no reference. Yeesh. So prove me wrong:) You cant be proven wrong here because it is easily statistically provable that Democrats are more educated. I think the argument would need to be taken to the grounds of, is the democratic platform more rational than other platforms?
As I said before, College profs tend to be democrat because that is what is healthy for public schooling. Who in their right mind would support politicians trying to squash your funding at every turn when they can vote for one that would bolster your budget to help you teach? That being said, the PHDs are the mentors of the college student for 4-6 years so the democratic platform has a wonderful advertising campaign right there. The republicans have Christians, the democrats have College institutions. An interesting balance.
I don't believe your comment was worth a troll mod, oh well the modders are out in full force today though!
That being said, I have been heavily involved in the academic institution for a while at the College level. I wouldn't say the correlation between Higher education and democrat has much to do with the democrat platform being any more sound than the republican one. Rather the democratic platform favor's schools FAR more. You are also mocked in your career if you are a PHD and a republican unless you are a poly-sci instructor. Democrats also are in favor of looser policies for research and development.
Another thing you need to remember, just because I have a PHD doesn't mean I am predisposed to rational behavior. It just means I am really good at focusing all my attention on a subject.
Also the better educated are not always the wealthier. Of the PHDs I know they tend to be poorer as they took the instructor route.
Remember the whole causation correlation memo that is constantly thrown around here.
Well, the problem is, our society in the USA is much different than those in Europe. Social health care works well when in smaller settings but what is going to happen at the level of the US? It is a much trickier situation than you make it out to be. Americans are all about abusing systems to their benefit and the US is slightly larger than most european countries where social healthcare has been working. We also have a greater global presence than many countries so our fiscal burden is put off by that. So social healthcare may work well in a state by state situation but you really need to look at what society you are comparing the US to. Just because it is proven to work for country X does not mean it will be proven to work for country Y.
I would say it hasnt been the republican party's policies that have bankrupted them. It has been their lack of outreach. While the republicans were being smug in their conservative voter base, the democrats were making their platform look cool and trendy to the world. Go ahead look around, is it easier to admit you are a democrat or a republican? Even in my state, very very republican, it is almost a sin to say you are republican in public. Because it is equivalent to saying you are a close minded bigot who cannot think for themselves. While the cool kids are all democrat and free thinkers movers and shakers. me? Im an independent elitist, we are hated by all.
If you walk around and think everyone is wrong and worse than you because they do not share your point of view then eventually you will alienate all those people and they will work against you
Ummmm this is generally how dems behave as well, that somehow they are the sophisticated light and anything else just isn't socially acceptable or permissible. At least republicans take a stand on issues rather than constantly whining about how they would have done things better and dangling theories in front of their party members. "Oh if a democrat were president 9/11 would never have happened" "If a democrat were president, we wouldnt be in the war" "if if if...for the love of pete, give it up and SHOW the world things will be better". Yes I voted blue this round, but as the Simpsons democrat quote goes "We will screw it up somehow".
Ya, I had to do the math on it when I posted too, seemed like coax back then but it was around 1993-94 when I was first using Cat3 or 5. I definitely was installing Cat-5 for high schools as early as 1996. I remember because people were asking why we weren't using coax and the boss man said this was the direction things were going. I was just a cable runner. Now that I think about it, was probably Cat-3. First time I had ever heard of the stuff, never had to work with coax luckily, heard that was a nightmare.
But hey I am on your lawn here, so I will get off;)
No you are thinking more of a Troll. If I go to a forum and say mac books suck because of X. I am saying something that is a valid opinion. However, history shows us that people get up in arms about certain subjects. Firewire VS USB is one of them. Linux vs Windows another. SCSI vs ATA. The list goes on an on. My poke was intended as 'get off my lawn humor' as this exact same question comes up every time in Slashdot every time there is a firewire topic. So the original modder knew that and modded accordingly. Luckily this thread did not drive down into the pissing match it has historically. Probably because the flamers have gotten tired of it or because I pointed out the drivel soon enough to make any flamer who would post look like an ass.
in my satirical post I spelled it correctly as Natzi because that is inevitably what people will spell it when in the hurry to make some outlandish point;)
And if you think that post was a flame, you are going to have a rude awakening on/. one of these days, sooner than later;)
Because it is flamebait? Unless you are new to forums, posts like the parent are inviting a slew of Firewire can do XYZ wherein they reference timing, cleaner data streams etc etc. The USB people will fire back that they use USB fine to do all the above and so on and so forth. To which the video and audiophiles will scream back naner naner. This continues on until the whole thread bursts into flaming natzi comments then declare the thread dead.
So the better question, is how is this NOT flamebait.
Slashdot Mirror
Nice, Real rockets or model rockets. Personally I have been brewing, wave of the past and future!
LOL, more power to ya buddy ;) However, considering that the tech you are using still uses his tech therefore anything you create will just go into his pool of revenue generated.... ;) You could write your own language following your own algorithms but that is waaay to much work.
Here ya go you are running into a classic example of an individual who was taught that abc is the way to go. Rather than parsing the situation as a set of problems and a resolution with those variables in context. In this scenario you are agreeing with Dijkstra in that you need to understand the problem before you can create a solution. Rather than assuming that do-while is the best way to go, as an abstract approach you think...'I need a method that behaves like this because of that', and thus you have started writing an algorithm in your head.
Sorry had to say it, considering that he is one of the fathers of modern computing, his revenue generated far exceeds your own. Consider that the languages you use were all created off of many of his algorithm contributions....He just doesn't get credited except by academics.
Of course, I don't know you - you are probably just trying to explain a thought process, something very difficult to do in the best of circumstances.
Thank you for saying that, don't hear that often on /.
Yes, people who can see things in the sense of constructs tend to be the weirdos because everyone else is to busy flaunting their arrogant knowledge of the details of everything. Being in IT you know these people, they are everywhere. The guy who thinks in constructs usually tends to be the quiet guy/girl in the room waiting until the situation is laid out then responds with a question to further their knowledge of the situation. I bet you are good at what you do because you don't think in terms of .NET only or Windows only. But rather you see a situation and consider 15 different tools to accomplish the job. This is what he is getting at in the paper. He is saying rather than telling someone how to use a tool. Teach them how to see the solution. Working in this manner you can use a variety of variables and constructs to come up with a solution. Rather than just being a 1 hit wonder with 1 language or 1 OS.
Try reading some of Feynman's books someday, insightful reading and entertaining.
In conclusion I meant no slight to your intelligence, rather that because of the way you see the world and have taught yourself is probably the reason you came to the wrong conclusion of what he was stating.
I beg to differ, I am an Network Engineer. A rather successful one, I have excelled past many co-workers in every job I have been at. I have led several forums in answering various issues networking related that individuals come across. I was taught in a manner similar to what Dijkstra proposes. It has been immeasurably helpful in every aspect of my life. Most students dont remember what they learned in college, at least not the details. However, being taught in this manner allows you to move your knowledge set to envelope tools rather than just know how a tool works. I don't care if I am on a Windows network, a Unix network, or one made out of toast. Because I was taught to see things from an abstract view. This is why while other people get stuck with "this is how dad did it" mentalities, my networks progress, continue to work smoothly,and allow people to function correctly.
There is a reason people are so bitchy about Linux vs Windows and IPv4 vs IPv6. because people cant see bigger pictures and only care about these constructs they have made up. Rather than viewing things formulaic. Which is too bad because I keep having to fix peoples dumb ass setups. It is too bad also because many people spend their lives bitching about how systems and inventions don't work correctly. It is because they are in such a damn hurry they create objects they don't understand and their formula don't work. But they will never understand this and spend their lives wallowing in frustration because they never were taught to look at the computational world correctly.
Well put, better than my response. I don't have mod points so kudos instead.
You missed a lot of the points because you are the product of the individuals he warns about. I cannot explain it clearer than he did so if you didn't understand it then it is your loss. Suffice to say, since you don't understand his premise and probably lack the ability to do so because of your upbringing, your three counterpoints are moot. I postulate you are modded insightful because what you wrote sounds intelligent, but is simply misinformed.
I will second this, my pot belly comes from my love of micro brews. I stand about 6'6" and weigh 280 currently. I bike frequently, can run a 10K with a decent time easy. Of course right now I have some tendonitis in my knees so I have to wait until that heals but I could probably still outrun most of my co-workers with enough painkillers...But then again, I am in the IT world so that is not saying much.
Just put in my will: Please update my facebook status....question being, what would it say...? "Joe is wormfood, see ya soon".
I have about 7 years full time experience under my belt not counting college or any small jobs through high school. I have a lot to learn and seek out people to learn it from. I have met truly ignorant individuals, age has no preference here. Wisdom comes with the right kind of experience. I have learned more this last year bouncing around different jobs than I did at the job I sat at the previous 5 years.
So yes, ask the question, and make sure you get an answer from the younger and older individuals, you will find that a couple of your kids with 10 years of experience will far outshine the older guys with 25 years doing a repetitive job. Same for a 5 year vs a 10 year.
Wisdom is what I look for, not knowledge.
Sorry, things went fuzzy and I blacked out while reading the second item. Did anyone with more stamina actually make it through?
I have no clue, I gave up on rationalizing with those people long ago ;)
Also, of the non-academics with "BA/BS/MA/MS/legal/medical/etc degrees" that I personally know (not to be mistaken for all democrats) I find that more of them are in severe conflict with the democratic platform than republicans are with their platform. Maybe republicans are less likely to look into what their party is doing. Whereas my democrat friends are staunch pro-life, anti-gay, anti social healthcare individuals. It is just weird...its like they are just dems because it is cool to be dem or something.
Of course with gov't supported school initiatives I think that would be a futile area for me to argue on as I am a believer in private schools for K-12. Gov't subsidized loans for the families who cannot afford it. Public school has been screwed up enough (Republicans mostly to thank for that). This also makes the Science vs Religion debate go poof as we will see quickly where people put their money.
I agree that smart people are better at justification than stupid people. I have many friends who are living proof of that. Also think of all the IT guys you know that you would hire in a sec but would never want on your debate team.
I've seen show that one needn't look as far as PhDs and career academics to see the correlation between more education and voting Democrat. Still no reference. Yeesh. So prove me wrong :) You cant be proven wrong here because it is easily statistically provable that Democrats are more educated. I think the argument would need to be taken to the grounds of, is the democratic platform more rational than other platforms?
As I said before, College profs tend to be democrat because that is what is healthy for public schooling. Who in their right mind would support politicians trying to squash your funding at every turn when they can vote for one that would bolster your budget to help you teach? That being said, the PHDs are the mentors of the college student for 4-6 years so the democratic platform has a wonderful advertising campaign right there. The republicans have Christians, the democrats have College institutions. An interesting balance.
That being said, I have been heavily involved in the academic institution for a while at the College level. I wouldn't say the correlation between Higher education and democrat has much to do with the democrat platform being any more sound than the republican one. Rather the democratic platform favor's schools FAR more. You are also mocked in your career if you are a PHD and a republican unless you are a poly-sci instructor. Democrats also are in favor of looser policies for research and development.
Another thing you need to remember, just because I have a PHD doesn't mean I am predisposed to rational behavior. It just means I am really good at focusing all my attention on a subject.
Also the better educated are not always the wealthier. Of the PHDs I know they tend to be poorer as they took the instructor route.
Remember the whole causation correlation memo that is constantly thrown around here.
LOL funniest thing I have seen in a while, you get modded up and I get modded down. Doesn't bother me but I find it funny.
Well, the problem is, our society in the USA is much different than those in Europe. Social health care works well when in smaller settings but what is going to happen at the level of the US? It is a much trickier situation than you make it out to be. Americans are all about abusing systems to their benefit and the US is slightly larger than most european countries where social healthcare has been working. We also have a greater global presence than many countries so our fiscal burden is put off by that. So social healthcare may work well in a state by state situation but you really need to look at what society you are comparing the US to. Just because it is proven to work for country X does not mean it will be proven to work for country Y.
I would say it hasnt been the republican party's policies that have bankrupted them. It has been their lack of outreach. While the republicans were being smug in their conservative voter base, the democrats were making their platform look cool and trendy to the world. Go ahead look around, is it easier to admit you are a democrat or a republican? Even in my state, very very republican, it is almost a sin to say you are republican in public. Because it is equivalent to saying you are a close minded bigot who cannot think for themselves. While the cool kids are all democrat and free thinkers movers and shakers. me? Im an independent elitist, we are hated by all.
Ummmm this is generally how dems behave as well, that somehow they are the sophisticated light and anything else just isn't socially acceptable or permissible. At least republicans take a stand on issues rather than constantly whining about how they would have done things better and dangling theories in front of their party members. "Oh if a democrat were president 9/11 would never have happened" "If a democrat were president, we wouldnt be in the war" "if if if...for the love of pete, give it up and SHOW the world things will be better". Yes I voted blue this round, but as the Simpsons democrat quote goes "We will screw it up somehow".
But hey I am on your lawn here, so I will get off ;)
in my satirical post I spelled it correctly as Natzi because that is inevitably what people will spell it when in the hurry to make some outlandish point ;)
And if you think that post was a flame, you are going to have a rude awakening on /. one of these days, sooner than later ;)
buy better cables. Ive been working with Cat-5 connectors for over 15 years and have had less of those break than USB connectors....
So the better question, is how is this NOT flamebait.