"If you look more closely, you'll find that those bugs were fixed by fixing the underlying issue in Wine that causes them."
No shit Sherlock Holmes. How else did you think they would fix the issues? My point is that they release all these specific fixes for problems that occur in specific apps (which may or may not be the right way to fix the problem for all apps), and shit still doesn't work right most of the time. And a good majority of the time, you have to use something like Winetricks to install a bunch of DLL's and other software from Microsoft before you can get an app to work. WINE has a long way to go before I'd recommend it to anyone.
People disagree with you and it's because MS "inflitrated" Slashdot? LOL...have you seen the number of FOSS advocates on this site? Tons of 'em. That said, there are a good number of us who like Windows, and most of us are not on Microsoft's payroll (I say most because I'm sure that there are some people in Redmond who visit Slashdot.).
Windows 7 is a great OS. It is, hands down, the best release of Windows yet. I say that after using it for 6 months now. It's excellent. None of the problems that I had with Vista on 2007, and even compared to Vista SP3 (which was on the laptop I just bought), it's faster.
Don't be a moron just because you think everyone here thinks like you.
I think it would be a great steering system for an electric car that has motors on both front wheels. For that kind of car, emergency turning could be as simple as one wheel moving faster than the other, so even if conventional steering died (as in the wheels stopped angling left or right) you could still turn.
"No, Wine has a strict policy of not letting app-specific hacks into the mainline tree"
Well that certainly isn't obvious when you read the change log:
Bugs fixed in 1.1.31:
1660 Worms 2 demo crashes on startup
3044 CSpy/Date and Time Picker: selection of commas or weekday
3853 Freelancer: music hangs
5055 Deleting files from a window in wine doesn't send them to the Trash
5764 Running FFXI leaves blank screen after accepting user agreement.
6967 CSpy/Month Calendar: Wrong date gets selected
6969 CSpy/List View: Cannot select multiple items with mouse
7768 server should set process affinity
9989 Oracle OCI client: Hangs on updating LOB data
9995 font/menu problems
10050 oleaut32 and ITypeInfo::Invoke arguments
11385 Everquest 2 patcher window has transparency/drawing regression
11447 Solver addin in excel 2003 gives an "Out of Memory" error
11542 Proteus Demo crashes/hangs early
12349 DSOUND_MixInBuffer Assertion `dsb->buf_mixpos + len tmp_buffer_len' failed
12816 Age of Conan crashes
12859 HideThreadFromDebugger in NtSetInformationThread
13024 Regressions in Trackmania Nations Forever
13247 Emperor - Rise of the middle kingdom runs slowly w/o virtual desktop
15322 Add smartcard functionality
15812 3DS MAX 7.0: Any attempt to change viewport configuration results in a crash
15828 Microsoft Games for Windows - LIVE Redistributable setup - blank EULA
15936 Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 : crashes when start up
16525 Angels Online: Black screen in windowed mode.
16658 Scratchiness of sound in aimp 2.5 and other audio players
17096 Visual C++ 2005 Trial can't build project, complains when starting mspdbsrv
17532 Satori Bulk Mailer - adding modules fails
17581 Steam will not begin installation, segmentation fault, perhaps
17674 wine recaching font metrics on every run
18040 Mass Efffect crashes
18364 utorrent with an https tracker url stops working
18423 UPnP port mapping in uTorrent stopped working
18500 ntdll.NtQueryInformationProcess: provide simple ProcessDebugObjectHandle info class handling, returning "no debugger"
18660.NET 3.0 WPF requires SystemParametersInfoW( SPI_GETDROPSHADOW) handled
18716.NET 3.0 WPF requires SystemParametersInfoW( SPI_GETMOUSEVANISH) handled
18921 O(n) hash_table_add causes winedbg to take 20 minutes to dump stack when chromium crashes
19270 Dragon NaturallySpeaking 10 Standard freezes after selecting alsa in winecfg
19365 [Monkey Island Special Edition] Screen is cropped to a small part.
19369 C&C3 and Kane's Wrath crash with DSOUND_BufPtrDiff assertion
19380 SysDateTimePick32 - wDayOfWeek not generated automatically after DTM_SETSYSTEMTIME
19559 Proteus: Component text is too big
19578 Ares (Proteus 7.5) exits silently
19620 CounterStrike Source: Cannot perform microphone test (or use mic)
19851 interlocked* functions unimplemented for ARM
19897 d3d10/dxgi: device.ok crashes on MacOS X (InitAdapters/glGetString)
19901 Burg Schreckenstein: OSS HW emulation plays too slow and crashes
19963 GetSystemTimeAdjustment() should return 10000000 / sysconf(_SC_CLK_TCK)
19977 runasdate: buggy comctl32 behavior
19994 Microsoft Security Essentials Setup crashes missing __uncaught_exception
20094 messui.exe: instantly crashes
20121 Cities XL Demo fails to run
20153 AutoCAD 2008: Icons in popup menus too big
20159 EVE Online crashes on Character selection screen
20169 Jedi Knight: MotS freezes randomly after videos.
20253 WWII Online: Battleground Europe crashes
20258 Imperium Romanum crashes on startup
20270 Open file dialog in Winamp not resizable
20290 Crash when opening Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow or Chaos Theory's multiplayer mode
The graph shows that the vaccine caused a steep drop in an otherwise steady rate of cases each year. The death rate was already trending downward due to better medical care over the century. But it's much better to not get the disease at all and not need medical care than to get it and to not need the care.
The trend line insinuates that the death rate would have gone to near zero without the vaccine...which may be true...but why should we have people suffering from a disease that is entirely preventable?
Measles isn't a picnic...here's a list of possible complications from the wikipedia:
"Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring.[5] Complications are usually more severe amongst adults who catch the virus."
Most machines that are running in a corporate environment (at least at the places I have worked) can be imaged remotely via a program like Ghost.
Of course, I don't really think too many places are going to upgrade to 7 unless it comes installed on new hardware simply because there's not really any reason to go to 7 from XP if XP is working.
I should qualify that by saying that this is on a different machine with 2 gigs of ram...I use the 512 MB machine for surfing the web and taking notes.
Sounds like a problem with that poorly written enterprise app, not Windows 7. I multitask all the time...Firefox, Word, Visual Studio, Zune software...and it's not slow.
LikeWise Open will do it for you (with a GUI even!). It's in the Ubuntu repos (if that's what you're running). I think the package name is likewise5-open-gui.
CFO: "Why can't I open this spreadsheet that accounting sent me?"
IT: "You're using Open Office...that spreadsheet was made in Excel and Open Office doesn't support X feature."
CFO: "Well how the hell can I open it then?"
IT: "We need to wait for enough other people to have the problem and for the developers to add the features."
CFO: "My god...how long will that take?"
IT: "Could be a few weeks, maybe months...or never."
CFO: "Fuck that. I don't have time to waste. You said Excel will open in? Get that installed on here NOW!"
If your admins are going around installing an OS and apps on each machine individually in a corporate environment, you need new admins. And there's nothing so new and different about Windows 7 that would require any retraining...hell, you can still make it look just like Windows 2000 if you want.
Let's not BS here. Access controls in Linux and Windows achieve about the same thing.
"A default Linux install will allow you to control access to files and programs on a user by user, or user group basis without the need for extra software."
As will all Windows versions that use NTFS.
"It will take a little bit more expertise than using some program with a gui on windows might, but it also allows much greater control of precisely what user can do."
This is the part that confuses me...Linux and Windows handle user permissions pretty much the same way, so how could Linux offer greater control? (I think Windows is a bit more granular in the permissions that you can set, but I think most of them can still be accomplished in Linux.)
Agreed. I've not seen anything like Windows Group Policy for Linux. But, then again, I've not looked too hard. If someone knows of something like GP for Linux, please let me know!
Please don't ever use the Wine as an example of Linux being compatible with Windows software. Because a huge majority of programs simply don't work with it, and those that do have had special coding done in Wine to make them work, and even then they are as buggy as hell.
I'm not trying to bash Wine, I'm simply stating the facts as observed from four years of using Linux on the desktop.
Slashdot Mirror
"Except that Microsoft has a history of using back door APIs that are significantly more efficient than the published APIs"
[Citation Needed]
If you notice the other people you're doing it wrong.
I didn't say anything about how successful either side was...chill out.
Mah bad, I meant 2.
SIGH.
"If you look more closely, you'll find that those bugs were fixed by fixing the underlying issue in Wine that causes them."
No shit Sherlock Holmes. How else did you think they would fix the issues? My point is that they release all these specific fixes for problems that occur in specific apps (which may or may not be the right way to fix the problem for all apps), and shit still doesn't work right most of the time. And a good majority of the time, you have to use something like Winetricks to install a bunch of DLL's and other software from Microsoft before you can get an app to work. WINE has a long way to go before I'd recommend it to anyone.
I think you could say that about buying from any computer manufacturer. The OP sounds like he built his machine (he knows which mobo he's using).
"Where are the actual tests to prove that win7 "feels" quicker?"
Did you really just ask for objective evidence for a subjective claim? How can your prove that anything feels like anything?
I always find the Linux vs Windows debate so comical. Windows is a desktop OS trying to be a server, and Linux is a server OS trying to be a desktop.
People disagree with you and it's because MS "inflitrated" Slashdot? LOL...have you seen the number of FOSS advocates on this site? Tons of 'em. That said, there are a good number of us who like Windows, and most of us are not on Microsoft's payroll (I say most because I'm sure that there are some people in Redmond who visit Slashdot.).
Windows 7 is a great OS. It is, hands down, the best release of Windows yet. I say that after using it for 6 months now. It's excellent. None of the problems that I had with Vista on 2007, and even compared to Vista SP3 (which was on the laptop I just bought), it's faster.
Don't be a moron just because you think everyone here thinks like you.
I think it would be a great steering system for an electric car that has motors on both front wheels. For that kind of car, emergency turning could be as simple as one wheel moving faster than the other, so even if conventional steering died (as in the wheels stopped angling left or right) you could still turn.
"No, Wine has a strict policy of not letting app-specific hacks into the mainline tree"
.NET 3.0 WPF requires SystemParametersInfoW( SPI_GETDROPSHADOW) handled .NET 3.0 WPF requires SystemParametersInfoW( SPI_GETMOUSEVANISH)
Well that certainly isn't obvious when you read the change log:
Bugs fixed in 1.1.31:
1660 Worms 2 demo crashes on startup
3044 CSpy/Date and Time Picker: selection of commas or weekday
3853 Freelancer: music hangs
5055 Deleting files from a window in wine doesn't send them to the Trash
5764 Running FFXI leaves blank screen after accepting user agreement.
6967 CSpy/Month Calendar: Wrong date gets selected
6969 CSpy/List View: Cannot select multiple items with mouse
7768 server should set process affinity
9989 Oracle OCI client: Hangs on updating LOB data
9995 font/menu problems
10050 oleaut32 and ITypeInfo::Invoke arguments
11385 Everquest 2 patcher window has transparency/drawing regression
11447 Solver addin in excel 2003 gives an "Out of Memory" error
11542 Proteus Demo crashes/hangs early
12349 DSOUND_MixInBuffer Assertion `dsb->buf_mixpos + len tmp_buffer_len' failed
12816 Age of Conan crashes
12859 HideThreadFromDebugger in NtSetInformationThread
13024 Regressions in Trackmania Nations Forever
13247 Emperor - Rise of the middle kingdom runs slowly w/o virtual desktop
15322 Add smartcard functionality
15812 3DS MAX 7.0: Any attempt to change viewport configuration results in a crash
15828 Microsoft Games for Windows - LIVE Redistributable setup - blank EULA
15936 Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 : crashes when start up
16525 Angels Online: Black screen in windowed mode.
16658 Scratchiness of sound in aimp 2.5 and other audio players
17096 Visual C++ 2005 Trial can't build project, complains when starting mspdbsrv
17532 Satori Bulk Mailer - adding modules fails
17581 Steam will not begin installation, segmentation fault, perhaps
17674 wine recaching font metrics on every run
18040 Mass Efffect crashes
18364 utorrent with an https tracker url stops working
18423 UPnP port mapping in uTorrent stopped working
18500 ntdll.NtQueryInformationProcess: provide simple ProcessDebugObjectHandle info class
handling, returning "no debugger" 18660
18716
handled 18921 O(n) hash_table_add causes winedbg to take 20 minutes to dump stack when chromium crashes
19270 Dragon NaturallySpeaking 10 Standard freezes after selecting alsa in winecfg
19365 [Monkey Island Special Edition] Screen is cropped to a small part.
19369 C&C3 and Kane's Wrath crash with DSOUND_BufPtrDiff assertion
19380 SysDateTimePick32 - wDayOfWeek not generated automatically after DTM_SETSYSTEMTIME
19559 Proteus: Component text is too big
19578 Ares (Proteus 7.5) exits silently
19620 CounterStrike Source: Cannot perform microphone test (or use mic)
19851 interlocked* functions unimplemented for ARM
19897 d3d10/dxgi: device.ok crashes on MacOS X (InitAdapters/glGetString)
19901 Burg Schreckenstein: OSS HW emulation plays too slow and crashes
19963 GetSystemTimeAdjustment() should return 10000000 / sysconf(_SC_CLK_TCK)
19977 runasdate: buggy comctl32 behavior
19994 Microsoft Security Essentials Setup crashes missing __uncaught_exception
20094 messui.exe: instantly crashes
20121 Cities XL Demo fails to run
20153 AutoCAD 2008: Icons in popup menus too big
20159 EVE Online crashes on Character selection screen
20169 Jedi Knight: MotS freezes randomly after videos.
20253 WWII Online: Battleground Europe crashes
20258 Imperium Romanum crashes on startup
20270 Open file dialog in Winamp not resizable
20290 Crash when opening Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow or Chaos Theory's multiplayer mode
The graph shows that the vaccine caused a steep drop in an otherwise steady rate of cases each year. The death rate was already trending downward due to better medical care over the century. But it's much better to not get the disease at all and not need medical care than to get it and to not need the care.
The trend line insinuates that the death rate would have gone to near zero without the vaccine...which may be true...but why should we have people suffering from a disease that is entirely preventable?
Measles isn't a picnic...here's a list of possible complications from the wikipedia:
"Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), corneal ulceration leading to corneal scarring.[5] Complications are usually more severe amongst adults who catch the virus."
Uh, I used Vista right after it first came out and never came across a program that didn't work. Same with Windows 7. So no, not like Vista.
Most machines that are running in a corporate environment (at least at the places I have worked) can be imaged remotely via a program like Ghost.
Of course, I don't really think too many places are going to upgrade to 7 unless it comes installed on new hardware simply because there's not really any reason to go to 7 from XP if XP is working.
I should qualify that by saying that this is on a different machine with 2 gigs of ram...I use the 512 MB machine for surfing the web and taking notes.
Sounds like a problem with that poorly written enterprise app, not Windows 7. I multitask all the time...Firefox, Word, Visual Studio, Zune software...and it's not slow.
If TF2 ran decently in WINE (or one of the commercial WINE mods), and I didn't love my Zune pass so much, I'd use Linux a lot more.
That said, I still like Ubuntu on low powered machines. Can't beat the RAM usage.
LikeWise Open will do it for you (with a GUI even!). It's in the Ubuntu repos (if that's what you're running). I think the package name is likewise5-open-gui.
"New PC hardware requirements account for a significant portion of the added expense."
FUD. I'm running Windows 7 happily on a machine that has 512 MB RAM and 1GHz processor.
I can see that one going down:
CFO: "Why can't I open this spreadsheet that accounting sent me?"
IT: "You're using Open Office...that spreadsheet was made in Excel and Open Office doesn't support X feature."
CFO: "Well how the hell can I open it then?"
IT: "We need to wait for enough other people to have the problem and for the developers to add the features."
CFO: "My god...how long will that take?"
IT: "Could be a few weeks, maybe months...or never."
CFO: "Fuck that. I don't have time to waste. You said Excel will open in? Get that installed on here NOW!"
If your admins are going around installing an OS and apps on each machine individually in a corporate environment, you need new admins. And there's nothing so new and different about Windows 7 that would require any retraining...hell, you can still make it look just like Windows 2000 if you want.
IBM's numbers are still bullshit.
"There is nothing innately harder about learning to use a couple command line tools than learning to use some third party wizard."
(That's actually the point of a GUI...it is hard to learn a CLI because it's not discoverable. GUI's are supposed to help that.)
Let's not BS here. Access controls in Linux and Windows achieve about the same thing.
"A default Linux install will allow you to control access to files and programs on a user by user, or user group basis without the need for extra software."
As will all Windows versions that use NTFS.
"It will take a little bit more expertise than using some program with a gui on windows might, but it also allows much greater control of precisely what user can do."
This is the part that confuses me...Linux and Windows handle user permissions pretty much the same way, so how could Linux offer greater control? (I think Windows is a bit more granular in the permissions that you can set, but I think most of them can still be accomplished in Linux.)
Agreed. I've not seen anything like Windows Group Policy for Linux. But, then again, I've not looked too hard. If someone knows of something like GP for Linux, please let me know!
Please don't ever use the Wine as an example of Linux being compatible with Windows software. Because a huge majority of programs simply don't work with it, and those that do have had special coding done in Wine to make them work, and even then they are as buggy as hell.
I'm not trying to bash Wine, I'm simply stating the facts as observed from four years of using Linux on the desktop.