You don't know what you are talking about. The rules of the armed conflict apply to Al Qaeda, not Chinese Hackers (unless they are part of Al Qaeda). How did you ever come to hold that nonsense?
No, the government cannot "freely" "pick and choose who it applies to." If you want to try to make that silly claim then how do you explain that Guantanamo Bay has never held as many as 800 people in nearly 15 years. How could that be if what you suggest is true?
That's not even one. Guantanamo Bay holds prisoners of war, not common criminals from the civilian criminal justice system. It is entirely legitimate to hold them without trial, that's the way it works.
The number of well documented criminal actions committed by the US government or its representatives, including major war crimes and terrorism, currently and in the last 65 years, is quite surprising for the average American.
It is quite surprising and infuriating to the average anti-American how many of those claims evaporate like a puff of smoke in the wind or are demonstrated to be molehills decried as mountains when subjected to serious scrutiny in which the standard is the actual law or treaty, or simply the facts, not the specious claims of advocates from the remote fringes of the political spectrum. Communists and the far Left have frequently practiced that sort of game. Case in point: the Soviet Union propaganda campaign falsely claiming that the US government created AIDs.
"A public trial is important not only because that would be consistent with established principles of criminal justice,...
Someone should pass this on to the US.
*cough* Guantanamo.
I can help you with that "cough" by passing this on to you: Guantanamo Bay is a prisoner of war camp, not part of the civilian criminal justice system. You can hold prisoners of war without trial. That's the way it works. The US is in an armed conflict against Al Qaeda and its associates as authorized by the US Congress in its Authorization for Use of Military Force following 9/11/2001.
That has been covered countless times here and in the media. Is there some special reason why you've got this wrong after about 13 years?
Much of the rest of the world actually is more violent than the US. Many countries in Europe have higher rates of violence than the US for crimes such as rape, battery, and others.
Why don't you let me know how resisting rapists and thugs works out for you when you get old, sick, handicapped, or outnumbered? In the US people can still have a decent chance of defending themselves. In your sad world, not so much. You know what is going to happen to you in this situation? You'll probably be beaten, robbed, raped, and killed. The US isn't a nation of "pussies," you're just not bright enough to understand the facts of life and make provision for the future.
Many schools used to have rifle teams and hunter safety programs in which student would bring guns to school, and somehow there wasn't mass carnage. Any ideas about that?
Americans are get so scared they shit themselves all over the Constitution whenever terrorism is mentioned..... People aren't afraid of dangerous things like cars, but shit themselves over terrists.
Wrong-headed, scatological "insight." Popular claim, but just wrong.
Even as the kids are dead you still tried to turn it political and defend your gun and your right to shoot people.
Wrong. They arrested the plotters before anyone was killed. (How hard was it to get even that minimal part of the story right??) People have a right to self-defense, or do you deny that? The rest of your post is equally valid. You and your screwed up views are part of the problem, and leads to innocent people being left defenseless, assaulted, raped, or killed.
Either the NSA has some good shit on everyone in power, and/or everyone in power values convenience over the interests of the people.
That's all you've got? You can't think of not only more possibilities, but better ones? How about: Incoming Presidents quickly come to the realization that they grossly underestimated the threat to the country once they receive full intelligence briefings and realize that their campaign stance in some cases was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. That seem more likely than the nonsense false choice you offered. .
It's like she's bragging that she supplied the gas chambers at Auschwitz, and for a very reasonable fee.
That is unhinged. The NSA isn't the SS. Unlike the SS the NSA isn't involved in genocide, running death camps, gassing jews, gypsies, homosexuals, et. al. It is a signals intelligence agency that helped to defend the West against Communist bloc aggression, and the tens of thousands of terrorist insurgents trained by al Qaeda.
And since the NSA was operating against al Qaida you apparently consider them to be a wrongfully oppressed virtuous minority integrated into greater society when in fact they are extremists with a goal of conquering the world for Islam and exterminating the Jews (rather like the SS). It is unclear to me if you approve or disapprove of this goal. Since you apparently cast them as the Jews in your twisted rendition of this shall we assume you approve of their goals?
You apparently cant' tell friend from foe, or separate a Mengele from a Wallenberg or Schindler. And you Goodwined the thread to boot.
Is the use of a knife on a body torture? Maybe when it is a sadist carving you up to cause pain, but what about when it is a surgeon removing a tumor? The US has routinely waterboarded members of its military. Are you claiming that it tortured them? That isn't what Eric Holder said when he was Attorney General. He specifically said that it wasn't torture. Coercive? yes. Torture? No, not as it was done.
...the sort of thing we prosecuted people for in the past as a war crime.
A common claim, usually made in reference to the Japanese, but it isn't true. What the Japanese did was different than what the US did to a total of 3 (three) members of al Qaida ending in 2002.
It's also completely useless for gathering information, because all you get is garbage - someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to make it stop, even making shit up.
That seems to rely on some big and potentially false assumptions, and doesn't appear to be necessarily true.
U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. KSM stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him... KSM’s revelations helped authorities identify and incarcerate at least six major terrorists:
-----
Jesse Ventura put it rather well when he said something on the lines of "Give me Dick Cheney strapped to a folding table and a pitcher of water, and in 5 minutes I'll get him to confess to the Manson Family murders."
Jesse Ventura doesn't seem to understand the point of interrogation even if he does understand coercion. It is probably a bad idea to rely upon his views on this.
I'm surprised how this is actually news, every government keeps dossiers on foreign government officials in a database.
It's a little different when the foreign government steals the adverse data from your government so they (foreign government) can use it against you.
It is also a little different when the data stolen covers millions of employees over decades and involves some of the most intimate personal data.
And this is before anyone uses that treasure trove of data to perpetrate massive financial fraud and theft.
Remember when people used to post how they wanted to see their own government crippled and impotent, and that they didn't give a damn what China did, what it stole because China couldn't do anything? (Oh, and now it turns out Chinese agents take people against their will (dissidents, others) out of many countries.) Good times, good times.
The "facts of the matter" seem destined to elude you since you seem to prefer polemic, straw men, and false choices to actual investigation of the ideas to claim to be curious about. Don't worry, citizen, nobody here will force you to become better informed or to consider uncomfortable ideas that might be in discord with the party's teaching. So enjoy your pint, and don't forget to pay your party dues this month. Oh, the links? Not random at all.
I take it you've never noticed the trend of Marxist economics to turn former nations that were regional bread baskets into basket cases that have to import food, and bring ruin on the nation? Talk about a fraud and a hoax, and one with dozens of examples of failure.
Nice that you're pointing out that socialized medicine denies people care, and you think they should. I think one of the best instances of that I've heard of was the state being unwilling to pay for treatment, but they we're willing to spring for a suicide pill. Isn't socialized medicine wonderful? Feed the compassion.
I also like the contrasts. People here get all upset and indignant at the idea that an insurance turning town treatment (which tends to be rhetorical in these discussions) but cheer on the state telling people, "Meh, we don't want to give you any medicine, you're just going to die." I wonder what they will think when it is their turn?
Slashdot Mirror
You don't know what you are talking about. The rules of the armed conflict apply to Al Qaeda, not Chinese Hackers (unless they are part of Al Qaeda). How did you ever come to hold that nonsense?
No, the government cannot "freely" "pick and choose who it applies to." If you want to try to make that silly claim then how do you explain that Guantanamo Bay has never held as many as 800 people in nearly 15 years. How could that be if what you suggest is true?
"*cough* Guantanamo"
To name just one.
That's not even one. Guantanamo Bay holds prisoners of war, not common criminals from the civilian criminal justice system. It is entirely legitimate to hold them without trial, that's the way it works.
The number of well documented criminal actions committed by the US government or its representatives, including major war crimes and terrorism, currently and in the last 65 years, is quite surprising for the average American.
It is quite surprising and infuriating to the average anti-American how many of those claims evaporate like a puff of smoke in the wind or are demonstrated to be molehills decried as mountains when subjected to serious scrutiny in which the standard is the actual law or treaty, or simply the facts, not the specious claims of advocates from the remote fringes of the political spectrum. Communists and the far Left have frequently practiced that sort of game. Case in point: the Soviet Union propaganda campaign falsely claiming that the US government created AIDs.
AIDS: A GLOBAL ASSESSMENT : Soviets Suggest Experiment Leaks in U.S. Created the AIDS Epidemic
Principles of criminal justice
Someone should pass this on to the US.
*cough* Guantanamo .
I can help you with that "cough" by passing this on to you: Guantanamo Bay is a prisoner of war camp, not part of the civilian criminal justice system. You can hold prisoners of war without trial. That's the way it works. The US is in an armed conflict against Al Qaeda and its associates as authorized by the US Congress in its Authorization for Use of Military Force following 9/11/2001.
That has been covered countless times here and in the media. Is there some special reason why you've got this wrong after about 13 years?
Much of the rest of the world actually is more violent than the US. Many countries in Europe have higher rates of violence than the US for crimes such as rape, battery, and others.
Why don't you let me know how resisting rapists and thugs works out for you when you get old, sick, handicapped, or outnumbered? In the US people can still have a decent chance of defending themselves. In your sad world, not so much. You know what is going to happen to you in this situation? You'll probably be beaten, robbed, raped, and killed. The US isn't a nation of "pussies," you're just not bright enough to understand the facts of life and make provision for the future.
Really? Do you think that cars are as useful for self-defense as guns are?
Stories That Happened In MI
There are many people that harvest wild game to eat. Cars don't work well for that. Guns on the other hand ....
It seems to me that you might be hasty in suggesting someone else get a new brain. Maybe you should start closer to home.
Try teachers and other staff.
Many schools used to have rifle teams and hunter safety programs in which student would bring guns to school, and somehow there wasn't mass carnage. Any ideas about that?
Americans are get so scared they shit themselves all over the Constitution whenever terrorism is mentioned..... People aren't afraid of dangerous things like cars, but shit themselves over terrists.
Wrong-headed, scatological "insight." Popular claim, but just wrong.
Guantanamo Bay is an ordinary prisoner of war facility holding some extremely dangerous prisoners.
I thought naught.
FTFY. ;)
One of the disadvantages of modern education is that the whole subject of Rhetoric is a closed book to most people.
Based on the poor technique he demonstrated I don't think he opened the book either, and you're building doubts about yourself.
The art of argument and debate is quickly becoming a lost art,....
As you've unintentionally demonstrated.
...most "debates" these days start and end with comments about who or what one's mother has copulated with.
So you think that is bad, but it's OK to compare an ordinary business transaction to acts of genocide? .... See my first statement in this comment.
If you think that constitutes sound rhetoric perhaps you should avoid those techniques as you seem to do it badly.
Even as the kids are dead you still tried to turn it political and defend your gun and your right to shoot people.
Wrong. They arrested the plotters before anyone was killed. (How hard was it to get even that minimal part of the story right??) People have a right to self-defense, or do you deny that? The rest of your post is equally valid. You and your screwed up views are part of the problem, and leads to innocent people being left defenseless, assaulted, raped, or killed.
So you're saying that even dave420 agrees? That is refreshing, usually he is baffled by ordinary facts and isn't able to accept reality.
Looks like a success for "see something, say something."
Either the NSA has some good shit on everyone in power, and/or everyone in power values convenience over the interests of the people.
That's all you've got? You can't think of not only more possibilities, but better ones? How about: Incoming Presidents quickly come to the realization that they grossly underestimated the threat to the country once they receive full intelligence briefings and realize that their campaign stance in some cases was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. That seem more likely than the nonsense false choice you offered.
.
It's like she's bragging that she supplied the gas chambers at Auschwitz, and for a very reasonable fee.
That is unhinged. The NSA isn't the SS. Unlike the SS the NSA isn't involved in genocide, running death camps, gassing jews, gypsies, homosexuals, et. al. It is a signals intelligence agency that helped to defend the West against Communist bloc aggression, and the tens of thousands of terrorist insurgents trained by al Qaeda.
And since the NSA was operating against al Qaida you apparently consider them to be a wrongfully oppressed virtuous minority integrated into greater society when in fact they are extremists with a goal of conquering the world for Islam and exterminating the Jews (rather like the SS). It is unclear to me if you approve or disapprove of this goal. Since you apparently cast them as the Jews in your twisted rendition of this shall we assume you approve of their goals?
You apparently cant' tell friend from foe, or separate a Mengele from a Wallenberg or Schindler. And you Goodwined the thread to boot.
How did you end up so morally confused?
You can't think of any other possibilities?
The US CIA used "enhanced interrogation" in secret. That doesn't seem to mesh with your statement. Apparently it wasn't the same thing.
That, and the fact that it's TORTURE, ....
Is the use of a knife on a body torture? Maybe when it is a sadist carving you up to cause pain, but what about when it is a surgeon removing a tumor? The US has routinely waterboarded members of its military. Are you claiming that it tortured them? That isn't what Eric Holder said when he was Attorney General. He specifically said that it wasn't torture. Coercive? yes. Torture? No, not as it was done.
...the sort of thing we prosecuted people for in the past as a war crime.
A common claim, usually made in reference to the Japanese, but it isn't true. What the Japanese did was different than what the US did to a total of 3 (three) members of al Qaida ending in 2002.
It's also completely useless for gathering information, because all you get is garbage - someone will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to make it stop, even making shit up.
That seems to rely on some big and potentially false assumptions, and doesn't appear to be necessarily true.
Waterboarding Has Its Benefits
U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. KSM stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him ... KSM’s revelations helped authorities identify and incarcerate at least six major terrorists:
-----
Jesse Ventura put it rather well when he said something on the lines of "Give me Dick Cheney strapped to a folding table and a pitcher of water, and in 5 minutes I'll get him to confess to the Manson Family murders."
Jesse Ventura doesn't seem to understand the point of interrogation even if he does understand coercion. It is probably a bad idea to rely upon his views on this.
I demand that we vigorously close the barn door by implementing a robust biometric authentication infrastructure to prevent this from happening again!
That's probably a good idea since I'm reasonably certain they haven't hired their last employee.
Two can play that game.
Have you stopped beating your live-in boyfriend? Yes, or no? Which is it?
I'm surprised how this is actually news, every government keeps dossiers on foreign government officials in a database.
It's a little different when the foreign government steals the adverse data from your government so they (foreign government) can use it against you.
It is also a little different when the data stolen covers millions of employees over decades and involves some of the most intimate personal data.
And this is before anyone uses that treasure trove of data to perpetrate massive financial fraud and theft.
Remember when people used to post how they wanted to see their own government crippled and impotent, and that they didn't give a damn what China did, what it stole because China couldn't do anything? (Oh, and now it turns out Chinese agents take people against their will (dissidents, others) out of many countries.) Good times, good times.
The "facts of the matter" seem destined to elude you since you seem to prefer polemic, straw men, and false choices to actual investigation of the ideas to claim to be curious about. Don't worry, citizen, nobody here will force you to become better informed or to consider uncomfortable ideas that might be in discord with the party's teaching. So enjoy your pint, and don't forget to pay your party dues this month. Oh, the links? Not random at all.
I take it you've never noticed the trend of Marxist economics to turn former nations that were regional bread baskets into basket cases that have to import food, and bring ruin on the nation? Talk about a fraud and a hoax, and one with dozens of examples of failure.
Nice that you're pointing out that socialized medicine denies people care, and you think they should. I think one of the best instances of that I've heard of was the state being unwilling to pay for treatment, but they we're willing to spring for a suicide pill. Isn't socialized medicine wonderful? Feed the compassion.
I also like the contrasts. People here get all upset and indignant at the idea that an insurance turning town treatment (which tends to be rhetorical in these discussions) but cheer on the state telling people, "Meh, we don't want to give you any medicine, you're just going to die." I wonder what they will think when it is their turn?