If such presumptions can fairly be made, there ought at once to be an end of all delegated authority. The people should resolve to recall all the powers they have heretofore parted with out of their own hands, and to divide themselves into as many States as there are counties, in order that they may be able to manage their own concerns in person.
Good thing the Civil War set that part at ease. Resistance is futile. You will take it and like it.
Also, how do you square the fact that the copyright clauses were in the Constitution before the Amendments? It would seem that copyright actually precluded the 'freedom of speech'.
They are complaining that The Planet is refusing to let them buy service
I was under the impression The Planet had already hosted them for some time.
And how do you imagine that an ISP can gauge the objectionability of a site without the site even existing?
They shouldn't. That's not the business of a service provider. They provide access to zeroes and ones, nothing more.
then gauge complaints for objectionability
Tell the whiners to quit looking at it.
No, you'd rather that ISPs not have the freedom to conduct business as they'd like.
Yes. If you sell me storage for zeroes and ones, that's all you should do. Censoring is not the ISPs job.
in this case where there are no governmental controls, you are suggesting that more be placed
Government controls come in many forms. In this case, it is the government courts which uphold the legitimacy of service contracts which include provisions well outside the realm of the service of providing storage space and public access.
And, could you please point out in the First Amendment where it directed Congress to pass laws forcing private companies to respect Freedom of Speech, even if it requires a financial loss?
Financial loss is conjecture. As for the government, they have upheld decisions which enable private companies to infringe on the First Amendment.
Perhaps you need to figure out what the Constitution actually says
Ninth and tenth amendments. Read it and weep. The only jurisdiction the government has over a case such as this is to tell the ISP,"Sorry. We cannot aid you in your quest to regulate the freedom of speech. If anything, we must be forced to decree that you must continue to honor your service contract with the customer."
we should abandon the poor and homeless, let our forests be denuded
Conjecture.
but the moral and ethical one currently in place is far worse.
And what would you propose instead? A communist system where all the power of redistribution resides in the hands of a few self-interested, wealthy, powerful party members?
I propose deregulated capitalism--without government backing and courtroom support for the corporations. What is your plan to reduce corruption?
Suppose you lived in a prison state. Every aspect of your existence was enforced, however, that enforcement was in perfect accord with your own wishes. Are you still free?
I see your point and I value decency over freedom.
Take the duality even further: what is freedom from freedom?
I don't think it needs the graduate degree to see plainly that there are mega dangers to unfettered capitalistic practice without the controls given by law and regulation
It also shouldn't take a graduate degree to see plainly that laws and regulations have loopholes. Like computer coding those who write the rules know the loopholes long before anyone else does. In the arena of defining illegal insider trading, for example, the loopholes can be better than a 0-day trojan. It worked for Wall Street throughout the 90s...
and close scrutiny by the public
The public's too busy working to keep up with the tax burden to scrutinize anything.
This is an internet news discussion site. People voice their opinions.
If the contract to which they agreed has any kind of exit clause, then service can be retracted accordingly
Contracts suck.
I don't know of any government controls that were placed on the market
Have you been to the Library of Congress? Have you read US Code?
the fact that there are no government controls regulating the contents of the contract
Except the part where courts continue to uphold the validity of these contracts down to and including EULAs.
I hardly think that an Iranian organization
Prejudice. What does Iranian have to do with anything in the absence of any indication why the site was taken down?
Every ISP that I have ever evaluated has subjective and restrictive rules such as this
They're a service provider--not your mother. Quit justifying their actions. They provide service. As far as they're concerned, the only thing they provide is storage of and access to zeroes and ones. That should be legally backed.
the Hosting company has not said why it was terminated
In my opinion it doesn't matter why the site was terminated. The service provider's stance should be: "if you don't like it, don't look at it." And that should be legally backed.
Now say there was some illegal activity being coordinated on the website. That is not the service provider's problem. The authorities are free to subpoena records and go have a chat with the individuals if they can convince a judge that they have a reasonable excuse.
Someday there will be a world where even politicians will be held accountable to the rules.
How high up the chain do you want to climb? If you don't want to go much further then take the advice of everyone else: be cordial, treat your subordinates fairly, consider their abilities.
If you're driven to make it to a corner office on the 22nd floor with a grand view of the golf course... be ruthless and quiet. Don't tell _anyone_ your plans. Be as ambiguous as possible. Be subservient to those above you. Stay focused. If you get a subordinate who requires grooming or work then use them up until they're frustrated beyond wits end and then have them kicked out the door for disrupting the team. Obviously this setup scenario takes some planning and effort but, with the way workplace rules and courtroom laws run, it is fairly simple to accomplish at no risk to the company (you can even deny them unemployment benefits if you set it up correctly). Be wary of kicking out more than one subordinate in a year, though. The upper management tends to notice attrition. If your output is moving forward by leaps and bounds and you've been invited for a round of golf a few times then you can give less consideration to attrition. Keep exceptional performers only as long as they continue to devote themselves to furthering your managerial kingdom. The moment you notice them taking any interest in their personal advancement then wheel on them with the bait and slap routine. Write their goals hard then stick by those goals to the end (again, this requires careful planning to prevent HR from stepping in to moderate). At the end of the year light the employee up like the 4th of July and browbeat them with,"You can't meet your goals!" You'll find out it's very easy to both 1) use up an overachiever quickly and 2) eliminate any possible competition for the next departmental promotion.
I've never been on the managing end of the ruthless plan... But I sure know that my former manager is doing quite well and I'm still clawing to pay rent.
But in this case, they likely do have a service agreement
So now we're back to my original post when you began to argue: Some day we'll live in a world where a "service provider" doesn't have a legal right to censor.
Don't like playing in their pool
Their pool was just fine until they turned into authoritarian 'tards.
Funny - that's called "freedom" after all, isn't it?
I don't value freedom so much as I value decency. Pulling the plug on a paying customer on a 48 hour notice just because the customer has a few unpopular viewpoints is not decent. I bet The Planet isn't being very cooperative about providing access to the stored files either. That's also not decent.
Baiting, taunting, goading, pontificating, and harassing are also not decent.
So I guess if someone wanted to create a site to post your credit card information; as long as they paid their fee's you'd be okay with it.
And if the 'net wasn't full of anonymous trolling twits who wanted a billion fly-by-night registrars, we'd have their valid contact information so that we could beat them with a ball bat.
The internet policed itself quite well before politicians, Wall Street, and AOL showed up.
I don't believe in contracts. It's like playing pick-up alley poker. The rules always change at the whim of the dealer.
They have the legal right to refuse service to anyone for any reason
They've already taken the money. This isn't refusing service. It's retracting service which is already established.
It is part of the "free market" that people here are discussing
The market is hardly free when government controls are placed on it. If anything, the government should side with the consumer, saying,"Look, we have power over only one thing which pertains to this case: The First Amendment".
If you want to be able to host objectionable material, then find an ISP that won't make you sign such an agreement
Again. This is after the fact. The ISP already hosted it and you're using the word objectionable so liberally that it has lost any meaning.
How does it make the world a more free place to require all buinesses to conduct business according to restrictive rules?
The only restrictive rule here is the one imposed by The Planet.
But I think the MLM scheme by its very nature attracts a certain mindset
There are many different incarnations of a MLM scheme.
It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as social security. Oh wait... It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as 401(k). Oh wait... It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as roads and running water. Oh wait...
The common denominators of an MLM scheme: it's too complex to understand in plain english. If you're one of the people getting free pizza, you're going to lose your investment. There's always one more test, one more criterion, one more obligation.
The similarities between MLM schemes and big government are strikingly obvious. You could say that MLM schemes are "Little Brother".
Then there are the things the semi "anonymous" accounts are used for
You've never been truly harassed until you've
1) Been an IRC addict 2) Been trolled nightly (for 5 years) by someone with 3 different ISPs (including one AOL) and who has no job--thus leaving them free to strengthen their social network.
It'd be enough to drive someone into an 11 hour torrential outpouring of obscenity on a public street.
"any material... that is otherwise offensive or objectionable"
Someday we'll live in a world where a service provider does not have a legal right to censor. I'd liken it to renting a storage locker: as long as you aren't storing explosives or other hazardous material, they really have no say what you put in it. With random locker searches in schools being upheld by courts I suppose even this will go away. Someday we'll live in a world where random locker searches aren't allowed either.
Someday we'll live in a world where lip-service is a legally prosecutable crime.
I think it's more fair to ask at what ages are we more easily trained. We learn skills, repetitive routines, and hopefully creative ways to apply those routines when we're younger. The notion of routine and application aren't quite so tedious then because it's all new. As we get older we start to generate interests past the simple routines and our horizons broaden. As a chemist, I'm wonderfully interested in the application of programming and "what can I do?" but I'm no longer so interested in programming that I have the patience to go back and learn the formal syntax and the basic routines necessary to familiarize myself with achieving those ends within the context of, say, C programming.
Basic math is a great example. Throughout grade school we found ourselves doing 50-60 of the same problems over and over. Into high school sets were down to 10-20. By the time we get to differential equations we're solving only a handful of each type of problem because the method is so much more complex. Essentially, however, we're conducting millions (or approaching infinite) numbers of the basic calculatins we did by the dozens in earlier years.
As we get older we tend to eschew formal training in favor of more abstract pursuits. It can be said that we're less apt to learn. That holds true if learning is only defined to be an interest in extremely fundamental concepts that don't have easily perceived real world impacts.
I'm so paranoid that the only way to deal with life is to assume that I'm already dead and God's just screwing with my head before deciding my final fate.
Slashdot Mirror
Webapps suck. Burn them all.
These scientists have been studying workers and work behavior for over a hundred years
Experienced slavers who have learned how to pacify those they seek to subjugate. Just the kind of people I want to learn from.
If such presumptions can fairly be made, there ought at once to be an end of all delegated authority. The people should resolve to recall all the powers they have heretofore parted with out of their own hands, and to divide themselves into as many States as there are counties, in order that they may be able to manage their own concerns in person.
Good thing the Civil War set that part at ease. Resistance is futile. You will take it and like it.
Also, how do you square the fact that the copyright clauses were in the Constitution before the Amendments? It would seem that copyright actually precluded the 'freedom of speech'.
You misunderstand the meaning of Amendment.
carved in stone, that you have input into
Idealism at its finest.
They are complaining that The Planet is refusing to let them buy service
I was under the impression The Planet had already hosted them for some time.
And how do you imagine that an ISP can gauge the objectionability of a site without the site even existing?
They shouldn't. That's not the business of a service provider. They provide access to zeroes and ones, nothing more.
then gauge complaints for objectionability
Tell the whiners to quit looking at it.
No, you'd rather that ISPs not have the freedom to conduct business as they'd like.
Yes. If you sell me storage for zeroes and ones, that's all you should do. Censoring is not the ISPs job.
in this case where there are no governmental controls, you are suggesting that more be placed
Government controls come in many forms. In this case, it is the government courts which uphold the legitimacy of service contracts which include provisions well outside the realm of the service of providing storage space and public access.
And, could you please point out in the First Amendment where it directed Congress to pass laws forcing private companies to respect Freedom of Speech, even if it requires a financial loss?
Financial loss is conjecture. As for the government, they have upheld decisions which enable private companies to infringe on the First Amendment.
Perhaps you need to figure out what the Constitution actually says
Ninth and tenth amendments. Read it and weep. The only jurisdiction the government has over a case such as this is to tell the ISP,"Sorry. We cannot aid you in your quest to regulate the freedom of speech. If anything, we must be forced to decree that you must continue to honor your service contract with the customer."
we should abandon the poor and homeless, let our forests be denuded
Conjecture.
but the moral and ethical one currently in place is far worse.
And what would you propose instead? A communist system where all the power of redistribution resides in the hands of a few self-interested, wealthy, powerful party members?
I propose deregulated capitalism--without government backing and courtroom support for the corporations. What is your plan to reduce corruption?
And find one that's right for you.
Suppose you lived in a prison state. Every aspect of your existence was enforced, however, that enforcement was in perfect accord with your own wishes. Are you still free?
I see your point and I value decency over freedom.
Take the duality even further: what is freedom from freedom?
The BSD license.
For example, it is illegal to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater
And more's the pity. It's stupid to shout fire in a crowded theater... it's also stupid to panic for the exits without double-checking the data.
I don't think it needs the graduate degree to see plainly that there are mega dangers to unfettered capitalistic practice without the controls given by law and regulation
It also shouldn't take a graduate degree to see plainly that laws and regulations have loopholes. Like computer coding those who write the rules know the loopholes long before anyone else does. In the arena of defining illegal insider trading, for example, the loopholes can be better than a 0-day trojan. It worked for Wall Street throughout the 90s...
and close scrutiny by the public
The public's too busy working to keep up with the tax burden to scrutinize anything.
Use the shocks, verbal abuse, and threats of layoff to convince your minions that you are superior in all ways
Jurgen, Tom, is that both of you chanting in unison?
Whether you believe in contracts is not relevant
This is an internet news discussion site. People voice their opinions.
If the contract to which they agreed has any kind of exit clause, then service can be retracted accordingly
Contracts suck.
I don't know of any government controls that were placed on the market
Have you been to the Library of Congress? Have you read US Code?
the fact that there are no government controls regulating the contents of the contract
Except the part where courts continue to uphold the validity of these contracts down to and including EULAs.
I hardly think that an Iranian organization
Prejudice. What does Iranian have to do with anything in the absence of any indication why the site was taken down?
Every ISP that I have ever evaluated has subjective and restrictive rules such as this
They're a service provider--not your mother. Quit justifying their actions. They provide service. As far as they're concerned, the only thing they provide is storage of and access to zeroes and ones. That should be legally backed.
the Hosting company has not said why it was terminated
In my opinion it doesn't matter why the site was terminated. The service provider's stance should be: "if you don't like it, don't look at it." And that should be legally backed.
Now say there was some illegal activity being coordinated on the website. That is not the service provider's problem. The authorities are free to subpoena records and go have a chat with the individuals if they can convince a judge that they have a reasonable excuse.
Someday there will be a world where even politicians will be held accountable to the rules.
How high up the chain do you want to climb? If you don't want to go much further then take the advice of everyone else: be cordial, treat your subordinates fairly, consider their abilities.
If you're driven to make it to a corner office on the 22nd floor with a grand view of the golf course... be ruthless and quiet. Don't tell _anyone_ your plans. Be as ambiguous as possible. Be subservient to those above you. Stay focused. If you get a subordinate who requires grooming or work then use them up until they're frustrated beyond wits end and then have them kicked out the door for disrupting the team. Obviously this setup scenario takes some planning and effort but, with the way workplace rules and courtroom laws run, it is fairly simple to accomplish at no risk to the company (you can even deny them unemployment benefits if you set it up correctly). Be wary of kicking out more than one subordinate in a year, though. The upper management tends to notice attrition. If your output is moving forward by leaps and bounds and you've been invited for a round of golf a few times then you can give less consideration to attrition. Keep exceptional performers only as long as they continue to devote themselves to furthering your managerial kingdom. The moment you notice them taking any interest in their personal advancement then wheel on them with the bait and slap routine. Write their goals hard then stick by those goals to the end (again, this requires careful planning to prevent HR from stepping in to moderate). At the end of the year light the employee up like the 4th of July and browbeat them with,"You can't meet your goals!" You'll find out it's very easy to both 1) use up an overachiever quickly and 2) eliminate any possible competition for the next departmental promotion.
I've never been on the managing end of the ruthless plan... But I sure know that my former manager is doing quite well and I'm still clawing to pay rent.
But in this case, they likely do have a service agreement
So now we're back to my original post when you began to argue: Some day we'll live in a world where a "service provider" doesn't have a legal right to censor.
Don't like playing in their pool
Their pool was just fine until they turned into authoritarian 'tards.
Funny - that's called "freedom" after all, isn't it?
I don't value freedom so much as I value decency. Pulling the plug on a paying customer on a 48 hour notice just because the customer has a few unpopular viewpoints is not decent. I bet The Planet isn't being very cooperative about providing access to the stored files either. That's also not decent.
Baiting, taunting, goading, pontificating, and harassing are also not decent.
So I guess if someone wanted to create a site to post your credit card information; as long as they paid their fee's you'd be okay with it.
And if the 'net wasn't full of anonymous trolling twits who wanted a billion fly-by-night registrars, we'd have their valid contact information so that we could beat them with a ball bat.
The internet policed itself quite well before politicians, Wall Street, and AOL showed up.
If you sign the contract
I don't believe in contracts. It's like playing pick-up alley poker. The rules always change at the whim of the dealer.
They have the legal right to refuse service to anyone for any reason
They've already taken the money. This isn't refusing service. It's retracting service which is already established.
It is part of the "free market" that people here are discussing
The market is hardly free when government controls are placed on it. If anything, the government should side with the consumer, saying,"Look, we have power over only one thing which pertains to this case: The First Amendment".
If you want to be able to host objectionable material, then find an ISP that won't make you sign such an agreement
Again. This is after the fact. The ISP already hosted it and you're using the word objectionable so liberally that it has lost any meaning.
How does it make the world a more free place to require all buinesses to conduct business according to restrictive rules?
The only restrictive rule here is the one imposed by The Planet.
But I think the MLM scheme by its very nature attracts a certain mindset
There are many different incarnations of a MLM scheme.
It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as social security. Oh wait...
It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as 401(k). Oh wait...
It'd be easy to create an MLM scheme, incorporate it into the government, and sell it as roads and running water. Oh wait...
The common denominators of an MLM scheme: it's too complex to understand in plain english. If you're one of the people getting free pizza, you're going to lose your investment. There's always one more test, one more criterion, one more obligation.
The similarities between MLM schemes and big government are strikingly obvious. You could say that MLM schemes are "Little Brother".
Then there are the things the semi "anonymous" accounts are used for
You've never been truly harassed until you've
1) Been an IRC addict
2) Been trolled nightly (for 5 years) by someone with 3 different ISPs (including one AOL) and who has no job--thus leaving them free to strengthen their social network.
It'd be enough to drive someone into an 11 hour torrential outpouring of obscenity on a public street.
"any material... that is otherwise offensive or objectionable"
Someday we'll live in a world where a service provider does not have a legal right to censor. I'd liken it to renting a storage locker: as long as you aren't storing explosives or other hazardous material, they really have no say what you put in it. With random locker searches in schools being upheld by courts I suppose even this will go away. Someday we'll live in a world where random locker searches aren't allowed either.
Someday we'll live in a world where lip-service is a legally prosecutable crime.
So... how do you figure it was a breach of contract?
Were they over bandwidth? Were they unlawful?
I think it's more fair to ask at what ages are we more easily trained. We learn skills, repetitive routines, and hopefully creative ways to apply those routines when we're younger. The notion of routine and application aren't quite so tedious then because it's all new. As we get older we start to generate interests past the simple routines and our horizons broaden. As a chemist, I'm wonderfully interested in the application of programming and "what can I do?" but I'm no longer so interested in programming that I have the patience to go back and learn the formal syntax and the basic routines necessary to familiarize myself with achieving those ends within the context of, say, C programming.
Basic math is a great example. Throughout grade school we found ourselves doing 50-60 of the same problems over and over. Into high school sets were down to 10-20. By the time we get to differential equations we're solving only a handful of each type of problem because the method is so much more complex. Essentially, however, we're conducting millions (or approaching infinite) numbers of the basic calculatins we did by the dozens in earlier years.
As we get older we tend to eschew formal training in favor of more abstract pursuits. It can be said that we're less apt to learn. That holds true if learning is only defined to be an interest in extremely fundamental concepts that don't have easily perceived real world impacts.
I'm so paranoid that the only way to deal with life is to assume that I'm already dead and God's just screwing with my head before deciding my final fate.
You forgot to bring in your own kb to get around the hardware kb logger installed on all office kbs.
you are well and truly an idiot
/. as AC.
Here's a prescription for Viagra. It'll be more effective than attempting to troll