Hey look at you, you know how to link. Unfortunately overwhelming your post with links != t3h w1n Yes, I intentionally over-linked in my response to demonstrate how ill informed you apparently are (behold the power of the almighty anchor tag). You may want to read this specifically the part that says
Experts suggest several methods to protect the company so there will be as few lawsuits or other legal maneuvers as possible by former employees.
First, be sure that all employees who don't have a contract understand they are at-will employees. Some employment experts even suggest employers have new hires sign an agreement showing they understand this arrangement.
Second, all California at-will employment is just that - at-will. It's important the agreement you have employees sign makes this clear. Unless there is a contract spelling out why and how an employee can be terminated, there is no agreement to that effect. You can let an employee go at any time.
Third, educate your managers about California at-will employment. It's important they understand that at no time should they make any guarantees about employment to any employees. Many employers have managers sign agreements showing they understand at-will employment as well, though this isn't necessary.
If you do have written employment agreements with any employees, make sure the terms of the agreement include their at-will status under the California at-will employment statutes. Also, make sure the agreement does not guarantee any future employment with the company. This is an important step as many employees think if they have an employment contract, they are also protected from at-will firings, and that's not the case. Make sure the employment agreement states this clearly.
See, you have to be certain to CYA in terms of letting those not covered under collective bargaining agreements know of your company's policies (sorry, I know you hate it when I link to FACTS). And by the way, linking to the first article that you happen to find when typing "california at will employment" into Google ain't exactly 1337.
I've laid off enough people in the last two years, at multiple companies, to know exactly how things work. Maybe that's your problem. If you've laid off a lot of people for "multiple companies" in the last "2 years" perhaps you're not choosing the best employers (or staying with one long enough to realize how the game is really played). If said employers had a clue about employment law, they'd have protected themselves in any "new hire" paperwork.
Well since I live in California, an "at will" state I think you mean "right to work" state, which (if you'd bothered to follow the link) California IS NOT A RIGHT TO WORK STATE.
Please don't confuse your ideal view of how it should be with the reality of how it is. I assure you, I'm notconfusing any view. I'll offer the usual disclaimer, IANAL. However, I am someone who can think, has been in the workplace for more than a few years, and is capable of usingGoogle to research and recognize that unless you have violated various laws I don't think those cases are going to stick.
None of those things apply if your employment is "at will" and/or if you're in a right to work" state. They can let you go for any reason or no reason at all with little or no notice and can do so perfectly legally.
because some IT staffer changed a port # at one of their hub data centers without following proper procedure -- that's minor. I don't know if I agree with that. "Change Control" or "Change Management" is a crucial part of any Data Center. The fact that these ports were changed without being properly "run up the flagpole" is a glaring mistake with very unfortunate results. I'll bet anyone swapping ports in the future will ask permission several times over before trying it again.
I like Firefox but Firefox just doesn't like me, so, while I have it installed on most systems, I mostly use Internet Explorer 7 and Opera for day to day browsing. I guess I just question whether someone who willingly chooses to browse with IE over Firefox is qualified to measure the value of a browser.
If the FBI were sitting on a streetcorner, photographing everyone walking by, the outcry here on slashdot would be huge Not to nitpick, but doesn't the FBI (and several other governmental offices) as well as private companies do this already? Think about any major bank branch, post office, or office buildings and I guarantee there are PTZ cameras all over the place.
Distrust Google if you want to, or fume at the 'fanboyism' that seems to occur around them from time to time. I'm not saying that Google is completely free from any wrongdoing, just that I don't think the vast majority of people here on Slashdot think taking pictures in a public place is a HUGE privacy issue and thus a point of division in your Google vs FBI comments.
OK, admittedly off topic, but in a very similar vein and for your amusement:
Years ago, I was doing some HVAC work at an apartment community. This complex was made up of many buildings with several townhomes in each, all side by side. The electric meters for each townhome were grouped together on the back porch of one of the townhomes in each building. The particular condensing unit we were working on happened to be on the back porch where all the power meters were. While we were fixing it, the lady who lived in the house came out and asked us:
"Is there any way to make that meter run slower? My "light bill" is too high."
At this point, the other guy working with me (a real wise ass from NY) doesn't even skip a beat and says very matter of factly:
"Oh yeah, just put a brick on top of the meter"
Now it's all I can do to keep from laughing in her face at this point, but somehow I manage. She seems satisfied and goes back inside.
About a week later, I go back to the same unit to check it out and make sure it's still working fine and EVERY SINGLE METER had a brick on top of it. I bet I laughed for an hour.
I don't really see how it would cut into her market. Really? You don't see how a book that is a collection of notes/stories/maps/spells etc that were created by Rowling in her books that is obviously marketed directly at readers of the series could be infringing on her market/audience? Is it that hard to imagine that Rowling herself might have had the intention of publishing such a book herself in the future?
Believe it or not, I've designed both, I'm having a hard time believing that, at least with regard to the electrical infrastructure. For one thing, there are some inconsistencies emerging in your responses (i.e. going from claiming that there are 3 "branches" of electrical service at a hospital to claiming there are 5, or even dozens without really elaborating on the significance) We too have various portions of the Emergency system that are dedicated to Life Safety or Equipment or Critical/UPS(for example), but I don't see the significance of calling one portion of your Emergency Service Critical, one UPS, one Equipment, etc. I'm not saying that you don't have these differentiations, just that with respect to this conversation, I don't see how it applies, given that each of these systems is either a) provided Utility only power b) backed up by generator(s) or c) powered by UPS.
In addition, NFPA 110 does differentiate between Level 1 and Level 2 systems, however, it's not the Level but the Type that determines the timing restrictions (plus, you've moved back from your 3 second claim to a more reasonable 10 seconds anyway, so no bridge for you;-) ). Obviously, the risk for loss of life is far greater at a hospital, but you must keep in mind that in Data Centers, losing the Critical Load costs millions of dollars so the "expenses" you refer to in generator architecture are more than justified financially. Also, if you've designed Data Centers, you would know that (obviously) each of the various electrical feeds are also fed from different "panels, feeders, transfer switches" as well as having Automatic Throw-over switches, Static Switches, Smart Switches, redundant PDUs, Control Cabinets, Harmonics Mitigating Transformers, etc....I could go on and on.
I guess what I'm saying is, while there are different applications for both of our respective Critical Environments, there's no evidence that a hospital is more "complex" (a term that's hard to quantify anyway). I'm not really interesting in a contest (i.e. "my generator can beat up your generator"), particularly with what sounds like a "brother in arms" in the sense that it seems you also work in these types of environments. I think it's more interesting to clear up misconceptions where it's productive as in the original subject of this thread, which was essentially whether or not HVAC systems would be powered by UPS, which I'm sure you'd agree they are NOT.
Actually, hospitals are way more complex then most datacenters.
Well, it's clear by that statement that you have no idea of the infrastructure of a Data Center.
hospitals are required by to have not one, but three "branches" of emergency power
Well, Data Centers have this same distribution system as well. However, it's a little more complicated than you're explaining it. For example, an "Equipment" feed (as you call it) that is comprised of "Any larger mechanical equipment required for maintaining hospital operations during an outage" sounds pretty vague. In truth, the 3 main types are Utility, Emergency, and UPS. Utility has no backup, Emergency goes down with utility, but comes back up with the generators, and UPS never goes down ever.
hospital generators are required to start up in a maximum of 10 seconds (though they often take far less time...as little as 3 seconds
"Starting" and closing to the Buss are 2 very different things. If you believe that large generators are starting and closing to the buss at full voltage and balanced frequencies in 3 seconds, I have a bridge that you may be interested in purchasing. To give you some perspective, our 2 generators for our Data Center (2 Megawatts each) start and close to the buss (and are assume the building load) in 15 seconds. We, of course, circulate the heated jacket water to keep the oil, cylinders, etc warm and ready as you described.
I guess my point is that while you might be very proud of your data center setup...keep in mind that Hospitals are about the most complex buildings you can find
I am proud of our Data Center (and the others I've had the honor of running). I would not argue that hospitals are complex facilities, but to argue that they're more complicated than Data Centers is both short sighted, underinformed, and well, petty. There are many components that you're probably unaware of and layers of redundancy that are invisible to those who do not work in the "back of house" Critical Environments. To reiterate, I'm not saying that hospitals aren't complex nor am I saying that they do not have Critical Environments within them. I'm simply saying that you may have a perception of what a Data Center is that is not necessarily consistent with what is actually the case.
Although our servers are on uninterrupted power (same as the Air Con)
I guarantee your HVAC systems are NOT on UPS power. If by some massive failure during construction and commissioning they were and it was missed, I'd recommend firing your entire engineering department and any development contractors involved with building and maintaining your facility. There is no reason to put HVAC systems (chillers, pumps, air handlers, CRACs) on UPS as they can all manage just fine with losing their power and restarting once power is restored (either from utility or generator). To subject your UPS system(s) to the massive inrush current that would occur when various HVAC component loads are thrust on it would be....well, stupid at best.
Your power systems sound pretty consistent with what is in most Data Centers (the "Essential Power" is often referred to as Emergency Power in Data Center environments). 30 seconds is a pretty good turnaround time for generators to start up, although 15 seconds is better (and very attainable).
So to answer your question, no, Data Centers do not have a "slacker" design than hospitals. They are actually quite similar in their requirements in terms of HVAC and of course power.
I agree with almost all of your post with the only exception being the cooling systems on UPS. There is absolutely no reason to put cooling systems on UPS power. Large, inductive loads are a UPS's enemy. A big inrush current of a chiller starting up would beat the crap out of your battery string(s).
Having said that, you are exactly right on having both your UPS system(s) and your cooling system(s) diversified. I tend to get into this argument with people regarding what constitutes a "data center" and one of the most significant parts of determining what actually constitutes a "data center" is redundancy. This means not just redundant utility power feeds, but redundant UPS systems/modules, redundant generators, redundant chillers/CRACs, redundant PDU's, etc etc.
For our cooling systems, we have 4 Chillers (we only need 2) and 20 CRACs (we only need 10. Any problems with any system can be mitigated by rolling to the redundant system.
I realize that. But the article doesn't say that they were on backup GENERATOR power, but that they were on a redundant utility feed. Cycling these machines is not instant, I agree. However, the delay in restarting the chillers should not be such that you lose the floor. Also, the engineers in the building should have realized that their second utility supply was likely to be affected and gone to generator as a precaution until the repairs were made. It's better to be safe than sorry.
If you've actually seen cooling systems on UPS, please let me know who those Data Center operators are, because they need to be reported to the authorities...or at least a mental institution. There is absolutely NO reason to put massive, inductive, motor loads on your poor UPS system. By doing so, you are putting your actual critical load in major jeopardy (by exposing them to the potential of electrical faults on the cooling systems) and by reducing your available redundant UPS power.
You can set time delays into your Energy Management Systems and transfer switches to prevent generators from being fired up for 2-3 second brown outs. There is just NO reason to put cooling/HVAC on UPS, it would be insane to do so.
They have this already. It's called "Economizer Mode". There are basically 2 types, water side economizer and air side economizer. The air side is similar to what you're doing, which is taking the raw, unconditioned air, filtering it, and using it to cool the space.
The other type is the Water Side Economizer which is probably going to be more prevalent in Data Centers. The way it works is, at a predetermined Outside Wetbulb Temperature, the cooling tower(s) speed up to cool the Condenser Water to a lower temperature than usual. Then, the air handlers/CRAC units switch the flow of the water from their condenser assemblies to a water coil. The air from the Data Floor releases its heat as it passes across the water coil, the water is returned to the cooling tower and the heat is ejected. Basically, you cool your data center with water that's cooled by evaporation and exposure to colder outside temperature rather than through mechanical refrigeration.
This actually IS unusual. It's true that you would never put your cooling units on UPS power, but you would absolutely put them on generator power. Most people fail to differentiate between UPS power and Emergency Power. Having redundant utility feeds is great, but you have to have the generators in case both feeds fail.
It doesn't sound like the systems from your story were very well designed/maintained. If you were to lose 1 leg of your 3 phase power, the transfer switch would have gone to emergency position. If it didn't, someone's not doing their job (i.e. preventive maintenance, load testing, infrared scanning). Also, if you only had 3 minutes of battery time for your critical load, someone was not managing the load properly. Generally, you only need 15 - 30 seconds of battery time to make a transfer to generator, but to have ONLY 3 minutes worth is cutting it awfully close.
Exactly! The fact that these Chillers weren't on Emergency Generator Power is rookie mistake #1. All the generator power and UPS power in the world ain't gonna help if your Data Center gets too hot.
Intuitive Windows-based GUI
The rack-mounted G2 Enterprise Manager server and the dynamic security policies for hundreds
of distributed appliances are always managed over the network within strongly authenticated,
encrypted sessions from a highly intuitive, next-generation Microsoft Windows software package.
You only have to authenticate once to manage all of your appliances from one place. Easily view
individual security policies or enterprise-wide policies from the same user interface.
Again, I don't pretend to be an IT Security Specialist, I just find it interesting that for all the preparation to create a 'hardened system' that there appears to be a single point of failure which is a Windows based management console that provides a one stop shop to administer all devices in the system.
No, It doesn't. According to the PDF in the article:
Administration system requirements
OS - MS Windows 2000 or XP
CPU - Intel (1 GHz minimum)
Memory - 512 MB minimum
Drives - 300 MB of available disk space, 3.5" 1.44 MB floppy disk drive, CD-ROM drive
Monitor - 1024 x 768 or higher
Network interface card - access to your firewall network
Browser - Internet Explorer 4 or later; Netscape 4.x or later
Model 2100 & 2150 - 2U platform
Model 1100 - enterprise 1U platform
Model 410 & 510 - small 1U platform
Application (layer 7) throughput example*
Operating at virtual wire speed over a
Gigabit Ethernet
Gigabit
Fast
Ethernet
Ethernet
0
200
400
600
800
1000
1200
1400
1600
1800
2000
2.2 Gbps
4
HTTP
Application Defenses
2200
I'm no security expert, but those don't sound like "strong links" in the chain.
Slashdot Mirror
Maybe the same guy who left out the H in apostrophe? Just pointing out the irony ;-)
See, you have to be certain to CYA in terms of letting those not covered under collective bargaining agreements know of your company's policies (sorry, I know you hate it when I link to FACTS). And by the way, linking to the first article that you happen to find when typing "california at will employment" into Google ain't exactly 1337.
I've laid off enough people in the last two years, at multiple companies, to know exactly how things work.
Maybe that's your problem. If you've laid off a lot of people for "multiple companies" in the last "2 years" perhaps you're not choosing the best employers (or staying with one long enough to realize how the game is really played). If said employers had a clue about employment law, they'd have protected themselves in any "new hire" paperwork.
I think you mean "right to work" state, which (if you'd bothered to follow the link) California IS NOT A RIGHT TO WORK STATE.
Please don't confuse your ideal view of how it should be with the reality of how it is.
I assure you, I'm not confusing any view. I'll offer the usual disclaimer, IANAL. However, I am someone who can think, has been in the workplace for more than a few years, and is capable of using Google to research and recognize that unless you have violated various laws I don't think those cases are going to stick.
None of those things apply if your employment is "at will" and/or if you're in a right to work" state. They can let you go for any reason or no reason at all with little or no notice and can do so perfectly legally.
I don't know if I agree with that. "Change Control" or "Change Management" is a crucial part of any Data Center. The fact that these ports were changed without being properly "run up the flagpole" is a glaring mistake with very unfortunate results. I'll bet anyone swapping ports in the future will ask permission several times over before trying it again.
Not quite right. Sting's "Englishman in New York is different than Godley and Creme's "An Englishman in New York.
I guess I just question whether someone who willingly chooses to browse with IE over Firefox is qualified to measure the value of a browser.
Not to nitpick, but doesn't the FBI (and several other governmental offices) as well as private companies do this already? Think about any major bank branch, post office, or office buildings and I guarantee there are PTZ cameras all over the place.
Distrust Google if you want to, or fume at the 'fanboyism' that seems to occur around them from time to time. I'm not saying that Google is completely free from any wrongdoing, just that I don't think the vast majority of people here on Slashdot think taking pictures in a public place is a HUGE privacy issue and thus a point of division in your Google vs FBI comments.
Years ago, I was doing some HVAC work at an apartment community. This complex was made up of many buildings with several townhomes in each, all side by side. The electric meters for each townhome were grouped together on the back porch of one of the townhomes in each building. The particular condensing unit we were working on happened to be on the back porch where all the power meters were. While we were fixing it, the lady who lived in the house came out and asked us:
At this point, the other guy working with me (a real wise ass from NY) doesn't even skip a beat and says very matter of factly:
Now it's all I can do to keep from laughing in her face at this point, but somehow I manage. She seems satisfied and goes back inside.
About a week later, I go back to the same unit to check it out and make sure it's still working fine and EVERY SINGLE METER had a brick on top of it. I bet I laughed for an hour.
Was it the same comment? Sometimes when they change something.......ah you get it.
Really? You don't see how a book that is a collection of notes/stories/maps/spells etc that were created by Rowling in her books that is obviously marketed directly at readers of the series could be infringing on her market/audience? Is it that hard to imagine that Rowling herself might have had the intention of publishing such a book herself in the future?
I'm having a hard time believing that, at least with regard to the electrical infrastructure. For one thing, there are some inconsistencies emerging in your responses (i.e. going from claiming that there are 3 "branches" of electrical service at a hospital to claiming there are 5, or even dozens without really elaborating on the significance) We too have various portions of the Emergency system that are dedicated to Life Safety or Equipment or Critical/UPS(for example), but I don't see the significance of calling one portion of your Emergency Service Critical, one UPS, one Equipment, etc. I'm not saying that you don't have these differentiations, just that with respect to this conversation, I don't see how it applies, given that each of these systems is either a) provided Utility only power b) backed up by generator(s) or c) powered by UPS.
In addition, NFPA 110 does differentiate between Level 1 and Level 2 systems, however, it's not the Level but the Type that determines the timing restrictions (plus, you've moved back from your 3 second claim to a more reasonable 10 seconds anyway, so no bridge for you
I guess what I'm saying is, while there are different applications for both of our respective Critical Environments, there's no evidence that a hospital is more "complex" (a term that's hard to quantify anyway). I'm not really interesting in a contest (i.e. "my generator can beat up your generator"), particularly with what sounds like a "brother in arms" in the sense that it seems you also work in these types of environments. I think it's more interesting to clear up misconceptions where it's productive as in the original subject of this thread, which was essentially whether or not HVAC systems would be powered by UPS, which I'm sure you'd agree they are NOT.
Well, it's clear by that statement that you have no idea of the infrastructure of a Data Center.
hospitals are required by to have not one, but three "branches" of emergency power
Well, Data Centers have this same distribution system as well. However, it's a little more complicated than you're explaining it. For example, an "Equipment" feed (as you call it) that is comprised of "Any larger mechanical equipment required for maintaining hospital operations during an outage" sounds pretty vague. In truth, the 3 main types are Utility, Emergency, and UPS. Utility has no backup, Emergency goes down with utility, but comes back up with the generators, and UPS never goes down ever.
hospital generators are required to start up in a maximum of 10 seconds (though they often take far less time...as little as 3 seconds
"Starting" and closing to the Buss are 2 very different things. If you believe that large generators are starting and closing to the buss at full voltage and balanced frequencies in 3 seconds, I have a bridge that you may be interested in purchasing. To give you some perspective, our 2 generators for our Data Center (2 Megawatts each) start and close to the buss (and are assume the building load) in 15 seconds. We, of course, circulate the heated jacket water to keep the oil, cylinders, etc warm and ready as you described.
I guess my point is that while you might be very proud of your data center setup...keep in mind that Hospitals are about the most complex buildings you can find
I am proud of our Data Center (and the others I've had the honor of running). I would not argue that hospitals are complex facilities, but to argue that they're more complicated than Data Centers is both short sighted, underinformed, and well, petty. There are many components that you're probably unaware of and layers of redundancy that are invisible to those who do not work in the "back of house" Critical Environments. To reiterate, I'm not saying that hospitals aren't complex nor am I saying that they do not have Critical Environments within them. I'm simply saying that you may have a perception of what a Data Center is that is not necessarily consistent with what is actually the case.
I guarantee your HVAC systems are NOT on UPS power. If by some massive failure during construction and commissioning they were and it was missed, I'd recommend firing your entire engineering department and any development contractors involved with building and maintaining your facility. There is no reason to put HVAC systems (chillers, pumps, air handlers, CRACs) on UPS as they can all manage just fine with losing their power and restarting once power is restored (either from utility or generator). To subject your UPS system(s) to the massive inrush current that would occur when various HVAC component loads are thrust on it would be....well, stupid at best.
Your power systems sound pretty consistent with what is in most Data Centers (the "Essential Power" is often referred to as Emergency Power in Data Center environments). 30 seconds is a pretty good turnaround time for generators to start up, although 15 seconds is better (and very attainable).
So to answer your question, no, Data Centers do not have a "slacker" design than hospitals. They are actually quite similar in their requirements in terms of HVAC and of course power.
I agree with almost all of your post with the only exception being the cooling systems on UPS. There is absolutely no reason to put cooling systems on UPS power. Large, inductive loads are a UPS's enemy. A big inrush current of a chiller starting up would beat the crap out of your battery string(s).
Having said that, you are exactly right on having both your UPS system(s) and your cooling system(s) diversified. I tend to get into this argument with people regarding what constitutes a "data center" and one of the most significant parts of determining what actually constitutes a "data center" is redundancy. This means not just redundant utility power feeds, but redundant UPS systems/modules, redundant generators, redundant chillers/CRACs, redundant PDU's, etc etc.
For our cooling systems, we have 4 Chillers (we only need 2) and 20 CRACs (we only need 10. Any problems with any system can be mitigated by rolling to the redundant system.
I realize that. But the article doesn't say that they were on backup GENERATOR power, but that they were on a redundant utility feed. Cycling these machines is not instant, I agree. However, the delay in restarting the chillers should not be such that you lose the floor. Also, the engineers in the building should have realized that their second utility supply was likely to be affected and gone to generator as a precaution until the repairs were made. It's better to be safe than sorry.
If you've actually seen cooling systems on UPS, please let me know who those Data Center operators are, because they need to be reported to the authorities...or at least a mental institution. There is absolutely NO reason to put massive, inductive, motor loads on your poor UPS system. By doing so, you are putting your actual critical load in major jeopardy (by exposing them to the potential of electrical faults on the cooling systems) and by reducing your available redundant UPS power.
You can set time delays into your Energy Management Systems and transfer switches to prevent generators from being fired up for 2-3 second brown outs. There is just NO reason to put cooling/HVAC on UPS, it would be insane to do so.
Hogwash.
They have this already. It's called "Economizer Mode". There are basically 2 types, water side economizer and air side economizer. The air side is similar to what you're doing, which is taking the raw, unconditioned air, filtering it, and using it to cool the space.
The other type is the Water Side Economizer which is probably going to be more prevalent in Data Centers. The way it works is, at a predetermined Outside Wetbulb Temperature, the cooling tower(s) speed up to cool the Condenser Water to a lower temperature than usual. Then, the air handlers/CRAC units switch the flow of the water from their condenser assemblies to a water coil. The air from the Data Floor releases its heat as it passes across the water coil, the water is returned to the cooling tower and the heat is ejected. Basically, you cool your data center with water that's cooled by evaporation and exposure to colder outside temperature rather than through mechanical refrigeration.
This actually IS unusual. It's true that you would never put your cooling units on UPS power, but you would absolutely put them on generator power. Most people fail to differentiate between UPS power and Emergency Power. Having redundant utility feeds is great, but you have to have the generators in case both feeds fail.
It doesn't sound like the systems from your story were very well designed/maintained. If you were to lose 1 leg of your 3 phase power, the transfer switch would have gone to emergency position. If it didn't, someone's not doing their job (i.e. preventive maintenance, load testing, infrared scanning). Also, if you only had 3 minutes of battery time for your critical load, someone was not managing the load properly. Generally, you only need 15 - 30 seconds of battery time to make a transfer to generator, but to have ONLY 3 minutes worth is cutting it awfully close.
Try this.
Exactly! The fact that these Chillers weren't on Emergency Generator Power is rookie mistake #1. All the generator power and UPS power in the world ain't gonna help if your Data Center gets too hot.
Again, I don't pretend to be an IT Security Specialist, I just find it interesting that for all the preparation to create a 'hardened system' that there appears to be a single point of failure which is a Windows based management console that provides a one stop shop to administer all devices in the system.
Isn't that when 8 track tapes of bad 70's bands rain down from the sky?
No, It doesn't. According to the PDF in the article:
I'm no security expert, but those don't sound like "strong links" in the chain.