If there is wrongdoing then taking this public before seeking legal counsel has fucked any case they might have. If they were not thinking of any sort of case then they should consider retaining an attorney. I would not want a six or seven figure a year business fighting me for its life, especially a disreputable one, without some sort of legal representation.
Releasing these logs may win them public favor, but it could cost them any recourse they might have had. And the business they tried to expose can keep on doing the things it has always done...
The rules of admissibility apply at such point in time as the evidence is put before a court. Because this information was gathered improperly before the investigation, but more importantly because these logs are electronic certain standards would likely be required by the court for any such records to be allowed into the case. Not to mention the potential argument of prejudice in releasing the logs publically before any charges were filed.
Did the parties who made these allegations feel their case is so weak that they would rather the case be tried in public opinion instead of in a court of law? That is what this says to me.
All legal arguments aside don't you feel it is unnecessarily risky of Slashdot to post these kkinds of allegations? The law DID say innocent until proven guilty, at least the last time I checked...
If the parties that are responsible for these logs being posted do not have these logs to back up their claims, then their case is shaky. If they lose their case, then Slashdot becomes party to libel in civil court.
Whether I agree or not that these may be valid (I suspect they probably are) these logs would be inadmissible in an American court because they were apparently not obtained as part of a legal search, they are unsubstantiated, and they could have been fabricated. As such using them as "proof" or even to support a pattern of a company's misconduct is not kosher.
Because of this I again reiterate that I feel it is irresponsible of/. to print these allegations. If someone has a gripe this should be taken before a court, not/.
The size of the logs to me does not preclude fabrication by anyone capable of find/cut/paste in your average word processor.
The logs would indeed seem to lean towards being authentic, BUT they are not substantiated as such, and I suspect for/. to post unsubstantiated information as fact is irresponsible.
How were the logs acquired? Where did they come from? Are the sources reliable? Can anyone who criticized my comments state unquivocally that such fabrication is not possible for anyone with minimal word processing skills?
Naaah I think/. can be better than this. I expect them to be...
I read through them. But be aware that simply grepping through and changing names/inventing scenarios, how much of those logs is chit-chat? How much is actually meaty "evidence"?
ICQ History Log For:
12345678 SchmuckBoy
Started on Tue April 32 25:43:47 2004
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:43:47 nm Did you read on/. about all the ICQ "logs" that were posted?
leetkid 04/32/04 02:44:48 nm No, was it 'leet?
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:49:03 nm It took me a few days to write them all, but/. reposted them. This will teach that lamer to mess with me.
leetkid 04/32/04 02:50:04 nm Sec, viewing them... You wrote these???!!!
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:54:28 nm Sure I did. The people at Slashdot are not journalists so they did not bother to verify the facts, and I get away with smearing lameass publically, harming him and his reputation, and/. helped me do it.
leetkid 04/32/04 02:56:19 nm You ARE the 'leetest one of all!
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:58:43 nm I wouldn't be without the help of/.
Exactly why should anyone trust logs posted to a web site? Especially when someone's reputation is involved? How is/. not a party to libel if the allegations prove untrue?
Part of the long road she travelled was a biopsy that left her visibly disfigured. Had the biopsy returned negative, she would have been left with a four centimeter deep pockmark on her breast. The modified radical mastectomy did not affect her as deeply as the biopsy did.
If this probe can help to alleviate unnecessary biopsies and the emotional pain they cause then hooray for its developers, this is good news for lots of women, which is good news for people like me who are near and dear to a few of them.
I am glad it amuses you. Amusing you was my goal.:)
On the other hand most sensible people would probably realize that perfect English is not how any device communicates with other devices, and the whole humor thing would have missed them. How sad.:)
Is this going to be another WEP that we can all rush to deploy and then get caught with our pants down around our ankles?
While having a 400 Mbps wireless bus available to every device in my home would be nice, I'll wait for the evaluation from the security community before I brand wireless FireWire the Next Big Thing.
As I recall the whole idea behind FireWire is the ability for the end user to easily integrate greatly-varied appliances in a seamless network. The video recorder knows its a video recorded, and when hooked by IEE 1394 to an audio amplifier says "hey I can send audio data to you, I'm a video recorder." The amplifier replies "I am an audio amplifier. Only send me this kind of audio data, not video." No more multiple s-vhs/RCA/component/right/left/middle/VGA cables intertwined behind the entertainment center. Everything's in one thin cable, and any enabled device that is hooked into this network identifies itself and integrates seamlessly.
Do I really want Windows XP via wireless FireWire to serve out my recorded HDTV programming, music files, and Office XP spreadsheets to my neighbor, who lives less than ten meters to the north of my PC?
I am thrice damned. I am damned once for "Vanilla Ice", twice for "Baywatch", and now a third time for Rupert Murdoch.
To atone I shall learn to play "Waltzing Mathilda" on an accordion, eat nothing but veg sandwiches for a month, and construct an altar to Dame Edna on my front lawn.
Are you SURE this was the BBC's foul up? Sounds more like Rupert Murdoch's style.
BLOODY AUSTRALIANS!:)
I could understand the magnetic Martian lifeforms affecting cassingle sales, I mean... Hello, magnets?! But CD's? Everyone knows CD sales are expect to rise due to global warming.
Um, maybe in the movies? Sam Neill had Helen Hunt hot to have his kids in "Jurassic Park". Jeff Goldblum had Geena Davis so fond of him she still cried over him croaking after he digested part of her boss in "The Fly". There was that hax0r-chick in "Hackers" that was easy on the eyes.
In real life I have to face up to the fact that if I wanted women falling all over me -- besides getting a hair transplant and dropping 75 pounds -- chances are good I would choose a career that would allow me to work away from a computer, in a more social setting.
Maybe I just run in the wrong circles but I have yet to meet a woman who is interested in a man due to the actual size of his hard drive:
"320 GB RAID -- come HERE big boy."
"Can you tell me about routing tables again? That just makes me so hot."
"I was out with this guy, and I thought he was cute, and then he took me home and showed me his iMac, and I was like, eewwww..."
Plastic surgeon -- now there's the "babe motherlode" career. Computer jockey? Well...
"Johnny is sterile, but he got an A. We're proud of him, but of course we're sad about the grandkids."
Lots of other readers have commented on the effects of x-rays, so I'll spare everyone the regurgitated diatribe. Just please be more conscientious in regards to the cutesy comments editors add when they post these stories.
A better (if not safer) science project might be "The Darwinian Effect of Do-It-Yourself X-ray Kits on Budding Geniuses Who Spend too Much Time on Slashdot".
For some reason the idea of doing medical research with animals does not strike me as wrong as this. I really do not understand my response, but something just strikes me as wrong about using living tissue in a machine. The idea of a cyborg does not even strike me as being wrong, not like this.
I guess to me it is showing a complete disrespect to the donor organism -- a whole frog only good for a few muscle filaments. The destruction of the donor does not better anything else, it just bends a mechanical widget.
There is no argument supportive of it. This does not remotely benefit humanity -- even primate collision testing had that dubious purpose. It does not feed another organism. It makes a widget go flip-flop.
This is another one of those things that brings to mind the speech of do-gooder chaotician Ian Malcom in the movie "Jurassic Park", to paraphrase liberally:
"We put so much effort into whether or not we
could do this. We never thought about whether or not we should."
I know it's not the dissection of animals for research purposes. I have done that myself.
I guess it's because with this we have the potential to go from using whole animals as laborers to using parts of animals. Instead of a video camera we could have a small box with an owl eye sticking out of it. Boy what fun at a birthday party. "Honey, do you have a fresh eye around anywhere? This one seems to be dying..."
For some reason I have this feeling that muscle and animal parts in general best belong on a body, or on a plate. I do not know if the technology of "borrowing" pieces of animals for mechanical use is something I want around me.
And yes the theory of muscle-powered devices certainly does sound promising, but what about protecting these devices, not from oxidation, but from infection? What if your exoskeleton catches a cold? Would bioweapons -- or Sarin -- immobilize this device as easily as they currently immobilize soldiers? What about electricity? What would the benefits be, again?
Different elements and compounds reflect, absorb, or emit electromagnetic radiation differently. By knowing the spectral "signature" of an element or compound, one can look for it in light coming from far away.:)
Paranormalized has a good point. I am saddened to see such intelligent commentary at level 0. I had to hunt for your reply, and it's a very thoughtful and worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
Regarding preindustrial levels I was thinking of greenhouse gas levels roughly on par with those produced by "normal" processes such as volcanic eruptions, decay of vegetable material, etc.
I do not think it is possible for us to go back to preindustrial levels of all contaminants. Some of the things we have done are irreversible. There was no plutonium in the environment before the 20th century. Plastics and modern glass/ceramics will become a part of the fossil record.
I would just hope that eventually we would give the Earth's other organisms a chance to respond in a more normal fashion to "natural" Darwinian pressures, and work towards humankind having a lower impact on natural systems.
Assuming that Earth is a unique cradle of life we'd do well to be more careful stewards of its ability to continue nurturing new forms.
An interesting side note, after a million years of so of cities assuming the theory of evolution is correct we will have organisms specifically evolved to exploit urban environments. How curious.:)
Good points. Let's make those "pre-industrial levels."
As for bureaucracies, I do not like them myself, but somehow whatever solution is reached will need some method of implementation. Unless we choose no solution, which may be the choice.
I think we need to learn more about the carbon cycle before we begin trying to permanently remove it. Maybe we need a more temporary fix, to allow the carbin to cycle more rapidly. There are so many variables.
I propose using ice core samples to determine the proportions of atmoshperic SO2, CO2, and methane for pre-industrial Earth circa the mid 1700's, and adopting those ratios as a goal for future climate engineering.
Nations would be responsible for donating expertise, financial resources, or physical resources as they are able, to meet a reduction in greenhouse gases in proportion to their real world consumption of products contributing to warming.
Once mid eighteenth century levels have been reached, through a program of management nations would be able to increase or decrease their greenhouse gas output to modify these ratios to keep ocean levels, icepack thickness, and world temperatures relatively consistent.
Dangerous experiments with the potential to rapidly modify the global climate, such as widescale seeding of the Antarctic ocean with iron sulphate would be prohibited without a consensus mandate of member nations.
We are getting to the point where macroscopic engineering projects are possible. I think it's important to think through the ramifications of these projects before we implement them, as our current experience demonstrates.
This is just my two cent knee-jerk reaction to the whole topic. Feedback will probably prove my comments full of holes.:)
Betelgeuse is far enough out that it should not be a problem for Earth. It might make space travel really risky for a while tho.
I think it would be interesting to try to find correspondences between archaic supernovae and periods of rapid evolution. I suspect one might be able to find a correlation between rapid sppecies die off and repopulation, and periods of high mutation due to an increase in background radiation.
Remember in 4.5 billion years there have been plenty of nearby stars that have gone pop. Life is still here. Again a question that interests me is how life has been influenced by nearby stellar deaths.:)
It would seem we would have to relearn quarantine the hard way. We do it to pets, but not to people. Silly isn't it?
The two scary things about today's situation are the mobility of the population, and the density of people. A virulent airborne disease with 20 - 50% mortality and a rapid incubation time might easily cause a strong pandemic with several million dead and tens of millions sick. This would be unfortunate (in the least,) but it may be the only way we'll learn that what's good for our kitties and doggies is also good for us. The terrifying thing is that this pandemic won't happen over in East Timbuktu, it will happen on our doorsteps.
The West is ready to shoot asteroids out of the sky and seed the oceans with iron sulfate -- I think we had better pay closer attention to the very real possibility of terrestrial diseases as potential extinction threats.
Our chances of getting killed by an asteroid are something like one in ten thousand. What are our chances of dying of a pandemic disease? We had a pandemic in the early 1900's, influenza, that killed several million people... When was the last multimillion fatality asteroid strike?
Slashdot Mirror
If there is wrongdoing then taking this public before seeking legal counsel has fucked any case they might have. If they were not thinking of any sort of case then they should consider retaining an attorney. I would not want a six or seven figure a year business fighting me for its life, especially a disreputable one, without some sort of legal representation.
Releasing these logs may win them public favor, but it could cost them any recourse they might have had. And the business they tried to expose can keep on doing the things it has always done ...
The rules of admissibility apply at such point in time as the evidence is put before a court. Because this information was gathered improperly before the investigation, but more importantly because these logs are electronic certain standards would likely be required by the court for any such records to be allowed into the case. Not to mention the potential argument of prejudice in releasing the logs publically before any charges were filed.
Did the parties who made these allegations feel their case is so weak that they would rather the case be tried in public opinion instead of in a court of law? That is what this says to me.
All legal arguments aside don't you feel it is unnecessarily risky of Slashdot to post these kkinds of allegations? The law DID say innocent until proven guilty, at least the last time I checked ...
If the parties that are responsible for these logs being posted do not have these logs to back up their claims, then their case is shaky. If they lose their case, then Slashdot becomes party to libel in civil court.
One other point, if these allegations prove untrue, /. becomes guilty of libel ...
If they wanna "bet the farm" on something like this, then I guess that's their business. For some reason I suspect this story was poorly considered. :)
Whether I agree or not that these may be valid (I suspect they probably are) these logs would be inadmissible in an American court because they were apparently not obtained as part of a legal search, they are unsubstantiated, and they could have been fabricated. As such using them as "proof" or even to support a pattern of a company's misconduct is not kosher.
Because of this I again reiterate that I feel it is irresponsible of /. to print these allegations. If someone has a gripe this should be taken before a court, not /.
I read the links.
The size of the logs to me does not preclude fabrication by anyone capable of find/cut/paste in your average word processor.
The logs would indeed seem to lean towards being authentic, BUT they are not substantiated as such, and I suspect for /. to post unsubstantiated information as fact is irresponsible.
How were the logs acquired? Where did they come from? Are the sources reliable? Can anyone who criticized my comments state unquivocally that such fabrication is not possible for anyone with minimal word processing skills?
Naaah I think /. can be better than this. I expect them to be ...
I read through them. But be aware that simply grepping through and changing names/inventing scenarios, how much of those logs is chit-chat? How much is actually meaty "evidence"?
Insert your filler here ...
ICQ History Log For:
12345678 SchmuckBoy
Started on Tue April 32 25:43:47 2004
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:43:47 nm Did you read on
leetkid 04/32/04 02:44:48 nm No, was it 'leet?
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:49:03 nm It took me a few days to write them all, but
leetkid 04/32/04 02:50:04 nm Sec, viewing them
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:54:28 nm Sure I did. The people at Slashdot are not journalists so they did not bother to verify the facts, and I get away with smearing lameass publically, harming him and his reputation, and
leetkid 04/32/04 02:56:19 nm You ARE the 'leetest one of all!
SchmuckBoy 04/32/04 02:58:43 nm I wouldn't be without the help of
Exactly why should anyone trust logs posted to a web site? Especially when someone's reputation is involved? How is
Part of the long road she travelled was a biopsy that left her visibly disfigured. Had the biopsy returned negative, she would have been left with a four centimeter deep pockmark on her breast. The modified radical mastectomy did not affect her as deeply as the biopsy did.
If this probe can help to alleviate unnecessary biopsies and the emotional pain they cause then hooray for its developers, this is good news for lots of women, which is good news for people like me who are near and dear to a few of them.
I am glad it amuses you. Amusing you was my goal. :)
On the other hand most sensible people would probably realize that perfect English is not how any device communicates with other devices, and the whole humor thing would have missed them. How sad. :)
Is this going to be another WEP that we can all rush to deploy and then get caught with our pants down around our ankles?
While having a 400 Mbps wireless bus available to every device in my home would be nice, I'll wait for the evaluation from the security community before I brand wireless FireWire the Next Big Thing.
As I recall the whole idea behind FireWire is the ability for the end user to easily integrate greatly-varied appliances in a seamless network. The video recorder knows its a video recorded, and when hooked by IEE 1394 to an audio amplifier says "hey I can send audio data to you, I'm a video recorder." The amplifier replies "I am an audio amplifier. Only send me this kind of audio data, not video." No more multiple s-vhs/RCA/component/right/left/middle/VGA cables intertwined behind the entertainment center. Everything's in one thin cable, and any enabled device that is hooked into this network identifies itself and integrates seamlessly.
Do I really want Windows XP via wireless FireWire to serve out my recorded HDTV programming, music files, and Office XP spreadsheets to my neighbor, who lives less than ten meters to the north of my PC?
Uh ... No ...
NO NO NO. :(
I am thrice damned. I am damned once for "Vanilla Ice", twice for "Baywatch", and now a third time for Rupert Murdoch.
To atone I shall learn to play "Waltzing Mathilda" on an accordion, eat nothing but veg sandwiches for a month, and construct an altar to Dame Edna on my front lawn.
Are you SURE this was the BBC's foul up? Sounds more like Rupert Murdoch's style.
BLOODY AUSTRALIANS! :)
I could understand the magnetic Martian lifeforms affecting cassingle sales, I mean ... Hello, magnets?! But CD's? Everyone knows CD sales are expect to rise due to global warming.
Um, maybe in the movies? Sam Neill had Helen Hunt hot to have his kids in "Jurassic Park". Jeff Goldblum had Geena Davis so fond of him she still cried over him croaking after he digested part of her boss in "The Fly". There was that hax0r-chick in "Hackers" that was easy on the eyes.
In real life I have to face up to the fact that if I wanted women falling all over me -- besides getting a hair transplant and dropping 75 pounds -- chances are good I would choose a career that would allow me to work away from a computer, in a more social setting.
Maybe I just run in the wrong circles but I have yet to meet a woman who is interested in a man due to the actual size of his hard drive:
Plastic surgeon -- now there's the "babe motherlode" career. Computer jockey? Well ...
Lots of other readers have commented on the effects of x-rays, so I'll spare everyone the regurgitated diatribe. Just please be more conscientious in regards to the cutesy comments editors add when they post these stories.
A better (if not safer) science project might be "The Darwinian Effect of Do-It-Yourself X-ray Kits on Budding Geniuses Who Spend too Much Time on Slashdot".
For some reason the idea of doing medical research with animals does not strike me as wrong as this. I really do not understand my response, but something just strikes me as wrong about using living tissue in a machine. The idea of a cyborg does not even strike me as being wrong, not like this.
I guess to me it is showing a complete disrespect to the donor organism -- a whole frog only good for a few muscle filaments. The destruction of the donor does not better anything else, it just bends a mechanical widget.
There is no argument supportive of it. This does not remotely benefit humanity -- even primate collision testing had that dubious purpose. It does not feed another organism. It makes a widget go flip-flop.
This is another one of those things that brings to mind the speech of do-gooder chaotician Ian Malcom in the movie "Jurassic Park", to paraphrase liberally:
I know it's not the dissection of animals for research purposes. I have done that myself.
I guess it's because with this we have the potential to go from using whole animals as laborers to using parts of animals. Instead of a video camera we could have a small box with an owl eye sticking out of it. Boy what fun at a birthday party. "Honey, do you have a fresh eye around anywhere? This one seems to be dying ..."
For some reason I have this feeling that muscle and animal parts in general best belong on a body, or on a plate. I do not know if the technology of "borrowing" pieces of animals for mechanical use is something I want around me.
And yes the theory of muscle-powered devices certainly does sound promising, but what about protecting these devices, not from oxidation, but from infection? What if your exoskeleton catches a cold? Would bioweapons -- or Sarin -- immobilize this device as easily as they currently immobilize soldiers? What about electricity? What would the benefits be, again?
Spectroscopy.
Different elements and compounds reflect, absorb, or emit electromagnetic radiation differently. By knowing the spectral "signature" of an element or compound, one can look for it in light coming from far away. :)
How interesting.
The subway is a perfect climate for it to completely dodge winter weather. Can it still interbreed with its aboveground relatives?
Paranormalized has a good point. I am saddened to see such intelligent commentary at level 0. I had to hunt for your reply, and it's a very thoughtful and worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
Regarding preindustrial levels I was thinking of greenhouse gas levels roughly on par with those produced by "normal" processes such as volcanic eruptions, decay of vegetable material, etc.
I do not think it is possible for us to go back to preindustrial levels of all contaminants. Some of the things we have done are irreversible. There was no plutonium in the environment before the 20th century. Plastics and modern glass/ceramics will become a part of the fossil record.
I would just hope that eventually we would give the Earth's other organisms a chance to respond in a more normal fashion to "natural" Darwinian pressures, and work towards humankind having a lower impact on natural systems.
Assuming that Earth is a unique cradle of life we'd do well to be more careful stewards of its ability to continue nurturing new forms.
An interesting side note, after a million years of so of cities assuming the theory of evolution is correct we will have organisms specifically evolved to exploit urban environments. How curious. :)
Good points. Let's make those "pre-industrial levels."
As for bureaucracies, I do not like them myself, but somehow whatever solution is reached will need some method of implementation. Unless we choose no solution, which may be the choice.
I think we need to learn more about the carbon cycle before we begin trying to permanently remove it. Maybe we need a more temporary fix, to allow the carbin to cycle more rapidly. There are so many variables.
I propose using ice core samples to determine the proportions of atmoshperic SO2, CO2, and methane for pre-industrial Earth circa the mid 1700's, and adopting those ratios as a goal for future climate engineering.
Nations would be responsible for donating expertise, financial resources, or physical resources as they are able, to meet a reduction in greenhouse gases in proportion to their real world consumption of products contributing to warming.
Once mid eighteenth century levels have been reached, through a program of management nations would be able to increase or decrease their greenhouse gas output to modify these ratios to keep ocean levels, icepack thickness, and world temperatures relatively consistent.
Dangerous experiments with the potential to rapidly modify the global climate, such as widescale seeding of the Antarctic ocean with iron sulphate would be prohibited without a consensus mandate of member nations.
We are getting to the point where macroscopic engineering projects are possible. I think it's important to think through the ramifications of these projects before we implement them, as our current experience demonstrates.
This is just my two cent knee-jerk reaction to the whole topic. Feedback will probably prove my comments full of holes. :)
Are you thinking Barnard's Star? It's a red giant 14 LY out from us?
As I recall it's a main sequence star late in its life. It's going to die rather sedately and quietly, and end up a cinder.
(I may be wrong -- I do not currently have time to look this one up.)
Betelgeuse is far enough out that it should not be a problem for Earth. It might make space travel really risky for a while tho.
I think it would be interesting to try to find correspondences between archaic supernovae and periods of rapid evolution. I suspect one might be able to find a correlation between rapid sppecies die off and repopulation, and periods of high mutation due to an increase in background radiation.
Remember in 4.5 billion years there have been plenty of nearby stars that have gone pop. Life is still here. Again a question that interests me is how life has been influenced by nearby stellar deaths. :)
We quarantine them after the diagnosis is made... TB is difficult to catch.
I suspect we should probably quarantine beforehand, irregardless of country of origin. But that's rude, and does not expedite face to face business.
It would seem we would have to relearn quarantine the hard way. We do it to pets, but not to people. Silly isn't it?
The two scary things about today's situation are the mobility of the population, and the density of people. A virulent airborne disease with 20 - 50% mortality and a rapid incubation time might easily cause a strong pandemic with several million dead and tens of millions sick. This would be unfortunate (in the least,) but it may be the only way we'll learn that what's good for our kitties and doggies is also good for us. The terrifying thing is that this pandemic won't happen over in East Timbuktu, it will happen on our doorsteps.
The West is ready to shoot asteroids out of the sky and seed the oceans with iron sulfate -- I think we had better pay closer attention to the very real possibility of terrestrial diseases as potential extinction threats.
Our chances of getting killed by an asteroid are something like one in ten thousand. What are our chances of dying of a pandemic disease? We had a pandemic in the early 1900's, influenza, that killed several million people ... When was the last multimillion fatality asteroid strike?