The thing I find interesting is that they don't swear by them. They hate them and get frustrated and angry at them. But not at the M$ product at the computer because they have been taught to be 'computer skilled' not 'computer literate', and don't know that there is a difference between the software and the computer.
"worse, on machines destined to kids, which will naturally swear by M$ products later."
give them a mix of linux, windows and mac. Just like it is in the real world. Have a mix of applications on each. Have them learn the strenghts and weaknesses of each. This is what the real world is like.
Have a mix of them in the library for internet use and accessing the library catalog(often via web-interface these days). Show them that it doesn't really matter so long as standards are adhered to.
Seriously I doubt that any kid would have a problem sitting down at a KDE desktop for the first time. They'll just click on things till it breaks or works. And lets face it kids will often use the one which looks the coolest. Even a default KDE desktop looks pretty sweet (just change win-deco to laptop).
And after the license free period is over I imagine all the windows boxes will dissappear. Either that or MS will chase em down and eat them alive.
some of the comments I've read here in the last 20minutes suggest to me that some people would be happy if they could do away with subdirectories completely and just have:
/bin
/boot
/dev
/etc
/home
/lib
/mnt
/proc
/root
/var
and no subdirectories at all!!! except for/home, in which each user will get one subdir each, but no subdirs within it!!!
Was that so hard. It would work for me. Most program with more than just an executable gets a subdir. Suddenly it would be possible to wander around in the directories without ls scrolling off the screen.
And all the related files which seem to live in/usr/share like all the kde config directories can go in/usr/kde too.
And as far as just use a package-manager... there is no point in using one tool to avoid a problem - the problem is still there. Package-managers solve the problem of package dependencies, not messy filesystems.
"And tell me, how many of them go complaining back to the shop saying how they hate the goddam computer because the operating system sucks ass? "
Of course none of them do - they don't know what an operating system is, they think windows is part of the computer like the cdrom or the monitor is.
And when MSWord crashes - they think its something they did. I'm amazed at the number of people who are scared of their computers and think that it is their fault everytime it crashes.
"That's why many researchers-at universities and startups like Gelernter's Mirror Worlds as well as giants like Microsoft and IBM-are searching for alternatives."
or
"90% of computer interface is already done. Most people with a disorganised computer environment are just that disorganised. They don't need new interfaces, perhaps some classes in lateral thinking and organisation. Thats why the MS's and IBM's are searching for alternatives. They need a new product to sell to consumers because they now people are too lazy to take responsibility for their own filesystems."
"...this expanding collection of files, folders and lists. Yet "our neurons do not fire faster, our memory doesn't increase in capacity and we do not learn to think faster as time progresses,' notes Bill Buxton, chief scientist of Alias/Wavefront, a leading maker of graphic-design tools."
hello? Yes we do. Generally speaking the more mental exercise we do, the better our brains get. Otherwise I guess we give up now.
This guy is 'chief-scientist' - what does he have a doctorate of? phsycology? human behaviour?
It has to be able to withstand being pulled off the TV by a drunken/stoned 20-something tripping over the controller cords. How long do you think the harddrive will last?
I use kde2 for two reasons -
Firstly: my monitor blew up and my backup can only do 800x600 and windowmaker takes up too much room.
Secondly: I doesn't look exactly like windows or a mac but it has common elements, and even the default theme looks classy, specially with laptop win-dec theme.
When windows people see my machine they immediately ask what it is. Some people do the 'oh your a mac user' thing. Then they look silly.
When I say it is linux they go oh, and you can tell that they are thinking well it doesn't look all that hard to use. It is important at this point to do something like launching konqueror from the desktop bookmarks menu - but doing it slow enough so they can see what happened.
Use it in front of windows people and remember to demonstrate the neat gui things. Remember multiple desktops is something we're used to and probably can't live without - windows people have never even heard of the idea.
have they had the sense to pretty up their qt yet?
I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to create apps which look like they fell out of the ugly tree - they look out of place on my lovely kde2 desktop.
Technical issues are one thing but the toolkit looks ugly.
Remember not everyone thinks or works the same way. Not everyone performs the same tasks on their computer. Not everyone has the same size monitor. Not everyone can see for that matter.
People should stop telling everyone how they should use their computers and simply show them the alternative methods which may suit them.
I beleive this is the power of the *nix/X11/window manager combo - choice!
In the interests of consumers I think I set of standards on maximum and minimum standards needs to be defined for software. This would define the minimum hardware which would be required to run an application as well as the most powerful hardware that should be expected.
eg.
Office applications, web-browsing, email : 200-400mhz, 32-128meg ram, 1-6gig harddrive
Games are a different matter entirely.
Of course hardware companies (and software companies that depend of OEM contracts) would hate this, but I did say it would be good for consumers.
I don't know about anyone else but I find reading (particularly fiction) to be very tiresome on a desktop computer.
I have played several IF games 6 months ago (I like lovecraftian horror) but would be more likely to continue to do so and move into genres if I owned a laptop or such which I could play them on. I like to snuggle up on the lounge or sit in a park and read not at a desk.
Why all of a sudden are these people who would have been able to use a DOS commandline based computer 10+ years ago suddenly unable to use a unix shell based one now.
They have been told that it is hard and old and primitive and not as good as a gui. Told by people who want to sell them a gui shell incidentally.
A pure KDE distro (which is what we need by the way, koffice rules) would probably never require use of the command line.
But if you included a printed friendly guide to bash which included nice documentation of all the cl commands and simple explanations of how to do command tasks and scripts and examples of neat things you can do some of these newbie gui only users would pick it up and flick through it and go wow and learn little bits of it.
The difference is:
Case one: you have to use the command line to do things, it is not what you are used to but you have to learn it. People will resist, and not learn anything about it.
Case two: You don't have to use this really powerful and useful command line shell, you can use the gui instead. But here is a guide to the shell, those of you who are interested can have a look and we'll tell you everything you need to know. Some people won't look, but others will and some of them will learn things. And then they will show their friends this cool thing they can do now. And then their friends will want to know about it. And suddenly people will be learning to use the shell because it is useful, not because they have to .
Slashdot Mirror
The thing I find interesting is that they don't swear by them. They hate them and get frustrated and angry at them. But not at the M$ product at the computer because they have been taught to be 'computer skilled' not 'computer literate', and don't know that there is a difference between the software and the computer.
"worse, on machines destined to kids, which will naturally swear by M$ products later."
R&D department is told to solve the problem of too many windows and you can't use 'pager/workspaces' because they aren't cool enough.
The next person who I meet who tells me that they won't learn anything new to do a task more
efficiently is going to get hit.
And maybe I'll learn karate so I can hurt them more.
"some things are if I switched to Linux, and my time is too valuable to waste learning. "
How about a city-wide installation such as the city of Largos in Florida except just across the schools?
give them a mix of linux, windows and mac. Just like it is in the real world. Have a mix of applications on each. Have them learn the strenghts and weaknesses of each. This is what the real world is like.
Have a mix of them in the library for internet use and accessing the library catalog(often via web-interface these days). Show them that it doesn't really matter so long as standards are adhered to.
Seriously I doubt that any kid would have a problem sitting down at a KDE desktop for the first time. They'll just click on things till it breaks or works. And lets face it kids will often use the one which looks the coolest. Even a default KDE desktop looks pretty sweet (just change win-deco to laptop).
And after the license free period is over I imagine all the windows boxes will dissappear. Either that or MS will chase em down and eat them alive.
some of the comments I've read here in the last 20minutes suggest to me that some people would be happy if they could do away with subdirectories completely and just have:
/home, in which each user will get one subdir each, but no subdirs within it!!!
/bin
/boot
/dev
/etc
/home
/lib
/mnt
/proc
/root
/var
and no subdirectories at all!!! except for
"I'd much rather have 2000 binaries in /usr/bin than 2000 path entries in my $PATH"
/usr/share like all the kde config directories can go in /usr/kde too.
Who the hell moderated that as insightful?
how about:
/usr/bin
/usr/games/
/usr/gnome/bin
/usr/kde/bin
/usr/java/bin
/usr/adobe/bin
/usr/netscape/bin
/usr/mozilla/bin
/usr/real/bin
Was that so hard. It would work for me. Most program with more than just an executable gets a subdir. Suddenly it would be possible to wander around in the directories without ls scrolling off the screen.
And all the related files which seem to live in
And as far as just use a package-manager... there is no point in using one tool to avoid a problem - the problem is still there. Package-managers solve the problem of package dependencies, not messy filesystems.
"And tell me, how many of them go complaining back to the shop saying how they hate the goddam computer because the operating system sucks ass? "
Of course none of them do - they don't know what an operating system is, they think windows is part of the computer like the cdrom or the monitor is.
And when MSWord crashes - they think its something they did. I'm amazed at the number of people who are scared of their computers and think that it is their fault everytime it crashes.
Yet another reason why I'm glad not to live in the Incorporated States of America, or run any propriatory/closed source software.
"We wanted to find people who didn't understand the function of file folders, how to open files, how to delete files. We couldn't find anyone. "
My parents could have made a small fortune as IBM guinea pigs.
I guess these guys didn't try to hard.
"That's why many researchers-at universities and startups like Gelernter's Mirror Worlds as well as giants like Microsoft and IBM-are searching for alternatives."
or
"90% of computer interface is already done. Most people with a disorganised computer environment are just that disorganised. They don't need new interfaces, perhaps some classes in lateral thinking and organisation. Thats why the MS's and IBM's are searching for alternatives. They need a new product to sell to consumers because they now people are too lazy to take responsibility for their own filesystems."
"...this expanding collection of files, folders and lists. Yet "our neurons do not fire faster, our memory doesn't increase in capacity and we do not learn to think faster as time progresses,' notes Bill Buxton, chief scientist of Alias/Wavefront, a leading maker of graphic-design tools."
hello? Yes we do. Generally speaking the more mental exercise we do, the better our brains get. Otherwise I guess we give up now.
This guy is 'chief-scientist' - what does he have a doctorate of? phsycology? human behaviour?
It has to be able to withstand being pulled off the TV by a drunken/stoned 20-something tripping over the controller cords. How long do you think the harddrive will last?
apart from the teeny tiny one on byte. I should have said that.
does anyone know where there are screenshots etc or any other information about MSBob?
Always interesting to see more UI's even the failed ones. Especially the failed ones.
er is this trailer bundling? Should we call the DOJ? ;-)
I use kde2 for two reasons -
Firstly: my monitor blew up and my backup can only do 800x600 and windowmaker takes up too much room.
Secondly: I doesn't look exactly like windows or a mac but it has common elements, and even the default theme looks classy, specially with laptop win-dec theme.
When windows people see my machine they immediately ask what it is. Some people do the 'oh your a mac user' thing. Then they look silly.
When I say it is linux they go oh, and you can tell that they are thinking well it doesn't look all that hard to use. It is important at this point to do something like launching konqueror from the desktop bookmarks menu - but doing it slow enough so they can see what happened.
Use it in front of windows people and remember to demonstrate the neat gui things. Remember multiple desktops is something we're used to and probably can't live without - windows people have never even heard of the idea.
Gates knows damn well that Microsoft had little to do with the development of open/free software.
He also knows that most people don't read history (or slashdot) and so he can tell them whatever he pleases and they won't question it.
have they had the sense to pretty up their qt yet?
I don't know about anyone else but I don't want to create apps which look like they fell out of the ugly tree - they look out of place on my lovely kde2 desktop.
Technical issues are one thing but the toolkit looks ugly.
Remember not everyone thinks or works the same way. Not everyone performs the same tasks on their computer. Not everyone has the same size monitor. Not everyone can see for that matter.
People should stop telling everyone how they should use their computers and simply show them the alternative methods which may suit them.
I beleive this is the power of the *nix/X11/window manager combo - choice!
In the interests of consumers I think I set of standards on maximum and minimum standards needs to be defined for software. This would define the minimum hardware which would be required to run an application as well as the most powerful hardware that should be expected.
eg.
Office applications, web-browsing, email : 200-400mhz, 32-128meg ram, 1-6gig harddrive
Games are a different matter entirely.
Of course hardware companies (and software companies that depend of OEM contracts) would hate this, but I did say it would be good for consumers.
Well you used windows... I guess at least one person here warned you about that.
Just kidding.
The solution is very simple.
Enforce open publication of file-formats as a requirement of their use in government.
Thus if microsoft wants to maintain government contracts must publish format specs.
This will prevent most of their attempts to stifle competition in office apps and actually encourage the economy.
I don't care what other people do so long as I am free to use what I want and they can use whatever they want.
I don't know about anyone else but I find reading (particularly fiction) to be very tiresome on a desktop computer.
I have played several IF games 6 months ago (I like lovecraftian horror) but would be more likely to continue to do so and move into genres if I owned a laptop or such which I could play them on. I like to snuggle up on the lounge or sit in a park and read not at a desk.
Why all of a sudden are these people who would have been able to use a DOS commandline based computer 10+ years ago suddenly unable to use a unix shell based one now.
They have been told that it is hard and old and primitive and not as good as a gui. Told by people who want to sell them a gui shell incidentally.
A pure KDE distro (which is what we need by the way, koffice rules) would probably never require use of the command line.
But if you included a printed friendly guide to bash which included nice documentation of all the cl commands and simple explanations of how to do command tasks and scripts and examples of neat things you can do some of these newbie gui only users would pick it up and flick through it and go wow and learn little bits of it.
The difference is:
Case one: you have to use the command line to do things, it is not what you are used to but you have to learn it. People will resist, and not learn anything about it.
Case two: You don't have to use this really powerful and useful command line shell, you can use the gui instead. But here is a guide to the shell, those of you who are interested can have a look and we'll tell you everything you need to know. Some people won't look, but others will and some of them will learn things. And then they will show their friends this cool thing they can do now. And then their friends will want to know about it. And suddenly people will be learning to use the shell because it is useful, not because they have to .