Slashdot Mirror
Another Xbox Anatomy Lesson
Keith writes: "Icrontic.com has taken apart, examined, and modified an Xbox. In their latest article, they point out some debugging leads on the Xbox, and a possible USB hack. The Xbox is looking more and more like a PC." A lot of the investigation here is incomplete; watch this space, because it won't be long until Xbox surgery is commonplace.
That's what I have to say
Je t'aime Stéphanie
Damnnnnnnnnnnnnn it would be nice to be able to read the article. Anyway, given that the XBox is really a very inexpensive Microsoft computer, who thinks Microsoft is going to come out with different XBox flavors aimed at people besides gamers?
Could this be used as a (relativly) cheap X Terminal?
Look at it! the hard drive even has a red to one IDE cable for gosh sakes, its a PC that looks like a console, what a clever company though, get a pc, package it as a console and call it the most advanced console ever (altho they did ignore the diffirence between RISC and CISC chips)
smart company, shitty product
Microsoft IIS is to webserving as KFC is to healthy eating
site's slashdotted - google cache dont have it.
--insert joke about Icrontic running xbox here--
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Possible? VERY MUCH SO. It's already been done to the PS2 for less than 20 bucks.
This site has tons of system hacks.
K, is this site being Slashdotted already?? I can't get on.. bah!
Yeah, Who wants to place a wager on wether or not Microsoft is going to try to take some legal action against the authors of that article for reverse engineering their proprietary hardware?
-- www.RoachMcKrackin.com
HardOCP have also ripped the guts outta the xbox, and their server seems to be a bit more responsive as well.
Plus I trust the hardocp guys a bit more than the average "look maw!Ii'm on the interweb!" reviewer
So if the XBOX is just a PC what are the chances of hacking it so it can use bleem to play playstation (PSX) games.
:)
It'd be fun to see microsoft embroiled in a copyright dispute from the other side
In other console news, Hong Kong has hacked the gamecube into playing pirated games burned onto MINI-DVD or CD-R formats. They have developed a CD/DVD addon and use the Gamecube's expansion ports to implement it.
Pretty quick if you ask me.
thats all i could think of when i saw the standard hard drives in there. 100 gig's. Say that would hold a lot of music.
Then i saw the heatsink and thought overclocking. Overclocking the xbox and changing the components to fit your own needs. Sounds a little open source to me.
The Xbox has some pretty good hardware, and the price is very good. Microsoft is selling it at a loss, I think around $100 per unit(of course, they have plenty of cash so losing money doesn't matter as much as gaining market share). This could make them quite cost effective price/performance wise compared to just buying stuff off the shelf in a cheap pc. I read somewhere awhile back that someone was trying to make it so the PS2 could be used to render stuff, and the Xbox is supposed to have slightly better hardware power. If the Xbox can be hacked to run linux(shouldn't be a big deal, since it is supposed to be a lot like a PC), and get some more connections stuff(like with this USB) then it may be worth getting one/few to connect to a network as an extra GPU. Linux being an OS of choice for the MS Xbox. Mmm, that irony smarts doesn't it...
Read the subject.
30% off web hosting. Coupon code "SLASHDOT".
That's Funny.
From the other Slashdot link to techtv , the innards of the Xbox show a Seagate hard drive. This one, however is a WD. Different brands of HD in different Xboxes?
I would think that kind of odd - wouldn't it be cheaper to just use one brand?
I'll wait for the emulator. I figure if a PC is running it, it won't be hard to make MY PC run it
does anyone have a dvd burner and have they tried running burned copies of games on your xbox? What is the file system of the xbox hd?
...slashdot sure seems to have blown its collective load several times over since the XBox's release.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Now we not only have to contend with their infuriatingly buggy and hideously bloated software, but now these frelling x-boxes have arrived to supply the world with game consoles which can run their shoddy wares.
Well I hope these things don't crash at inoppourtune times like their PC games are renowned for doing. I can't even fathom how many times a windows game crashed on me right before or as I was saving it.
Maybe since they have the line on the hardware they can get a reliable machine working. I sure hope so, they can use some help.
The #1 reason why I ever started using linux was because of games constantly crashing on pc's and little or no support forthcoming. Not that linux doesn't crash occasionally, but at least I can fool myself into thinking I'll go into the source code and fix it myself if I have to.
Who's gonna issue patches for x-box games? Nobody
Clickety Click
Could MS have made a mistake here? Basically, they are putting a (stipped down) PC into a console package. With the console selling less than WinXP (depending on, well a lot of stuff) what is to prevent everyone from re-tooling the Box into a cheap-ass PC? Not to hard even for novices at this point, I'd think.
Perhaps more is not better this time?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
I posted a list of PPC vs Pentium benchmarks a while back the last time this issue came up that shows the Pentium winning in almost every benchmark (SSE vs Altivec included).
Here's the benchmarks
As you can see, a 400-500 Mhz G4 is not "roughly equivalent" to a 700-800Mhz Pentium or Athlon. The G4 gets spanked in the majority of benchmarks and by large margins.
The idea that the G4 blows away a Pentium is a Mac user fantasy, chalk it up to Steve Jobs.
Well in typical Slashdot fasion, I have to ask: How long until Linux runs on this thing?
can someone install windows on Xbox so everyone can now have a PC for 300 dollars :)
Provided that the modifications required to run Linux, doesn't break the XBOX features, it would be great to have a dual Linux/Console for only $300...
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
Is it just me, or did the Hard OCP XBox use a Seagate HD? Yet this one is Western Digital. Following my experience with WD I'd wanna be damn sure my XBox has a Seagate in there if I buy one.
:) Anyone got any insight on either of these things?
Wonder what the file system is in there too? Unless it's a proprietary one it must be pretty damn easy to upgrade the things yourself (in which case I'd shove in a sizeable Maxtor pronto). Hmm, and for that matter, I wonder how hard it would be to backup the data on the HD somehow?
- icemind
All consoles mainly differ from the pc by their Unified Memory Architecture. This basically means that all of the hardware shares the same memory so the latency between the various parts is nearly zero. Basically your graphics card and cpu use the same memory as your sound card. Xbox just takes the top of the line graphics card and eliminates the bottle-neck of pushing numbers to it. Don't kid your selves the first genaration titles look better then PS2 and weren't designed to truly take advantage of all the xbox can do. Later games will look MUCH better. Of course, the true secret is in the sauce. If the games aren't fun what does it matter how much better they look. It's why nintendo is still alive. They make good games.
And over HailStorm too, for some reason...
and weren't designed to truly take advantage of all the xbox can do
Yes, I'm sure MS intended to enter the market with a fully crippled system. That explains everything. This was their plan all along.
This is a load o' grief.
...slashdot sure seems to have blown its collective load several times over since the XBox's release.
/. saying that we've figured out how to get linux, a X11 server, and SDL ported onto the Xbox. It would be like shoving a million needles in microsoft's eye when it happens.
And why not? I think MS is irrelevant to the fact that it is indeed a cheap alternative to the PC once we get the internal workings figured out. In these hard economic times, who wouldn't want a cheap PC?
And what would make us blow our load harder (and Bill Gates top higher) than an article on
Of course, there is the argument that we're just throwing money back into the devils pocket. Actually though, we're not. MS is taking about $100's loss per unit. With Linux running on it, it would give game developers an alternative to MS licensing on the XBox. You see, every game company that want's to make a game for any console system has to pay the console maker a royaltee on every game they make. So if we get the Xbox figured out, we could really start fucking with MS's head.
One last reason to blow a load on the Xbox, it's just PC hardware, which I myself really understand well myself. Sure I could be taking apart a SunE250 server, but who has the money or the access to one? Even if you had access, my boss would certainly look at me strangely if I had a screwdriver near anything Non-PC in the enterprise class of hardware.
Hope you enjoyed that, please aim your load away from me now.
Because of one thing... Sony.
Sony Entertainment
Sony Electronics
Sony PlayStation
Sony Online Games
Sony Movies & TV
Sony Music
...MS isn't a pimple on that collective butt.
S O N Y ] [
Irony # 1: Paying M$ money (buying XBox) in order to run Linux on it. They'll be laughing all the way to the bank. I guess techies will find any excuse to conveniently forget why they hate MS - just offer them tech candy and they submit.
/. about how ironic aforesaid misunderstood course of action is. Joke's on you, my friend.
Irony # 2: Doing #1, then thinking somehow you've won a victory for Open Source. And then, posting on
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
They are going crazy over it on the ign boards..
9 &r eplies=30
http://boards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=1436304
The XBox will be overclocked.
BUT.........
Just a few days ago there was another discussion at this fabulous web site about hacking the XBox, and several people pointed out that M$ uses various encription techniques in this machine which makes hacking incredibly difficult.
Perhaps before people start spanking their monkeys for a second time thinking about hacking an XBox, they should recall the discussion following the first article.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I'm just waiting for someone to port Linux to the X-Box. That would be, without question, the greated console hack ever, difficulty of porting nonwithstanding.
They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.
Leave MS alone, it may be the only thing standing between AOL and complete world domination.
You do nothing but show why the 'speed' argument is dead.
Your benchmarks have as much to do with performance as the box the computer's are shipped in.
Honestly, I don't mean this as a troll, but with the ridiculously low hardware prices right now, not to mention all the PC's /. readers already own, why bother to void your warranty on a brand new X-Box and spend all that time messing around? Wouldn't you be better off watching ESPN, meeting girls, teaching a neighborhood kid how to program, or doing something else fun and/or useful?
Microsoft (and all other console makers) sell the actual hardware at a loss and make it up via the software/games. Do they care if someone creates an emulator for the PC that will run X-box titles? Nope... well, they probably would... because people will figure out a way to pirate games and play them on the computer. That's a whole other issue though.
Hey - just a note...I am putting together a site to be a one stop shop type deal for hacking the Xbox...I have already added a 40gb drive to a system and got it running - story/pics/etc... coming soon...
http://www.boxhack.com
raretshirts.com - cool vintage t-shirts
What does overclocking the proc have to do with game play?
...n o t h i n g.
Wouldn't it be great if people figured out how to port Linux to the Xbox? It would end up being a Microsoft-subsidized Linux server appliance and server farm component. What more can we ask for?
Why would MS go to all the trouble of building a console which is almost a PC, and then "extend" Windows XP to allow those games to run on a PC?
Then they have to support two separate streams of game APIs - one into the XBox OS, and another into XP.
Why not, instead, use the XBox as the games platform, and slowly wean the gaming APIs out of XP (or just plain not develop them any further).
That way, MS get the gamers using a console (fewer of those nasty CD cracks and copies floating around), while only the "serious" computer user uses the "serious" PC running XP.
Even if the XBox is hardware hackable to turn it into a PC, how many home gamers are going to turn to hardware hacking and risk losing the use of their console?
With each breath in, a flower somewhere opens; with each breath out, a flower withers away. In between lies beauty.
XBox is looking more and more like a PC because it is a damned PC, with a few tweaks and a TV instead of a monitor. XBox is just a trojan horse to get Microsoft inside the homes of people who don't want PCs. XBox, UltimateTV/WebTV, and the short-lived MSN appliances are/were all trojan horses to get Microsoft through the door and closer to the drawers where PC non-users keep their checkbooks.
== Paul Rickard, Editor of The Microsoft Boycott Campaign ====
Slashdot loves hardware that somebody is helping pay for.. It includes everything from hackable bar code scanners (thanks Digital Convergance), pre programmed internet terminals (thanks I-Opener) and now hackable PC hardware (thanks Bill).
The truth shall set you free!
GET A LIFE!
Wow slashdot's gone downhill
Slashdot, the site where everything's made up and the points don't matter
PEACE!!!!
you turn off the Xbox during a write to the HD? Can you corrupt your FS. How does MS get around this? As far as the file system. They are probably using their encrypted NTFS that you can get for 2000 server. So basically without the built in "unlock code" you will have a hard time cracking it. xboxdecrypt@home anyone?
I'm not sure what encryption standard the 2000 encrypted file system uses that would help at least. As far as the debug points on the motherboard, maybe its a serial output of what is going on?
Hi - just a note... I too am putting together a site to be a one stop shop type deal thing for jacking the Xbox...
/. effect. This site is the bomb!]
I have already added a 600gb drive to a system and got it to be running - story/pics/adverts/etc... coming soon...really...I promise.
HackBox! We take the X out of Xbox!
[If you can't get in, it's most likely due to the
"With Linux running on it, it would give game developers an alternative to MS licensing on the XBox."
Actually, it would make no impact whatsoever. But you would have succeeded in wasting countless hours that could be used for a better purpose.
Second, do you honestly believe an established multimillion dollar game publisher is going to risk MS's wrath by publishing games that run on the X-Box but are unlicensed? Not to mention the legal ramifications if a publisher decides to skip on the royalties. Sure, I expect the X-Box to be hacked, and yes, we might get PC games to run on it and all of our other software, but I seriously doubt any of the big publishers (e.g. EA, THQ) has the balls to stand up to MS and release unlicensed games designed for the X-Box but not anywhere else and just release it as is. I'm sure that the publishers have some competent developers around that could reverse engineer the consoles, but there's a reason they just don't release unlicensed games.
Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm not saying that MS's move into consoles is necesarily bad, but this is just a broader strategy to increase their goals of dominating new areas and increase their growth. I also personally do not believe MS has a chance against Sony, and from the looks of things, maybe not even GameCube. Their hardware does look very nice, but I don't know if they can hold out for the long haul without itching to build a new device too quickly.
OK, put your mouse over the submitter's name (Keith). The link is to Icrontic.com. But that's also the site he points us to in his post.
I wish the Slashdot editors would check to see that the story isn't just spam, promoting the poster's site.
qslack.com
I'm also keeping a close eye on the preferences page for an "XBox" section I can uncheck so I don't have to see these useless stories anymore.
-Legion
only a matter of hours before someone has linux hacked onto it.
"Its not GNU, its X-BOX!"
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
Of course, there is the argument that we're just throwing money back into the devils pocket. Actually though, we're not. MS is taking about $100's loss per unit. With Linux running on it, it would give game developers an alternative to MS licensing on the XBox. You see, every game company that want's to make a game for any console system has to pay the console maker a royaltee on every game they make. So if we get the Xbox figured out, we could really start fucking with MS's head.
Now this is naive talk. No bunch of linux kids are gonna fuck with MS' head here...
Microsoft is going to make a profit on XBoxes sooner or later, they just need to produce enough volume and it will become profitable. They're basically commodity PC components -- of course they're gonna be dirt cheap in a few years. The more XBox's you Linux people buy, the closer they'll scale up to profitability.
Secondly, there's no way it's going to give game developers "an alternative to Microsoft licensing" on the Xbox. Writing a game that actually runs on a non-hacked XBox will require including MS copyrighted signatures with your title (at least if it's anything like earlier consoles), and anyone who publishes a title that hacks around that will see some serious wrath come down on them.
Finally, game developers are in business, as is Microsoft, and so far they're enjoying working with MS... it's a very attractive platform to work with.
So fine, see that XBox might be a cheap PC-like box for now, but in a few years it'll be cheaper to buy an equivalent PC. And don't get any delusions of fucking with MS. They'll fuck back harder.
I don't know about the PS2, and I don't believe the GameCube has fans, but the XBox having 2 fans isn't totally a good thing. We all know that fans are very unreliable in the long run, so unless MS sprang for some very nice (and expensive) all-ball-bearing sealed fans (which I doubt considering how much per box they're losing) I can see more than a few fans failing in a year and some nasty warranty issues. Dust and fans don't mix, and with no filters, and open vents to the outside, I wonder...
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
Any X-Box owners out there that can testify to the existance or absence of any sort of EULA for the hardware? Microsoft is somewhat famous for their software EULAs, would it be so supricing to find one on the X-Box?
I've looked at the boxes they come in, but short of buying one I haven't been able to check out the included liturature. Perhaps one of you can stop gaming/hacking for a moment and actually read the paper waste that came with the box.
Not that it will make a difference one way or the other. But you figure they have to know there's a hacker community out here just waiting to rip this thing apart. If not, I'm sure it will be a real i-opening experience!
I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it.
"In these hard economic times, who wouldn't want a cheap PC? "
1. Xbox are in high demand. It doesn't matter how cheap its going to be, good luck in getting one.
2. If you have to do major changes to the hardware, then you have enough skills to build a computer for about the same as a Xbox. Its not all that powerfull inside, Celeron 733/8 gig hd/dvd.
3. It would be much better to work on the Gamecube or PS2. Make another system better.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
One interesting thing, though, is that it seems like all of the consoles have the standard "50,000 blocks" of memory to save games and music on the XBox. Where are the additional blocks for the 10 gig system? (Or less blocks for the 8 gig?)
I don't know about anyone else but I am getting tired of the comments without reason, don't get the wrong Idea I once ran windows 3.1, 95, and even the horrid "me"/"98" and faced the most odd program crashes (well computer crashes) that made acid trips seem boring. . But really I feel that people are misinformed and uneducated when they say windows crashes all the time now days, because it simply does not crash much at all with windows 2k and XP . . it is pretty dam stable. And when people say .. "blab blab bla>> blue screen of death. . bla bla bloated software buggy. . etc . ." I just feel out of touch with that relativity. Microsoft should be criticized for releasing such shity software in the past but now can only be criticized because of their anticompetitive practices. Let me know if you agree with this. If so could people please bash Microsoft without sounding stupid, there are so many evil things that Microsoft can be criticized for, why get stuck up on something that is no longer true.
OpenBSD has now been ported from your kitchen sink to the XBox. Yet in much astonishment to the BSD team, the kitchen sink *still* crunches more RC5-64 keys per minute than the XBox.
- The Xbox is still cheaper than even the cheapest PC. This makes a difference at the low end of the market.
- Unless you buy a bunch of parts, it's not all that easy to buy a PC without M$ getting paid for a pre-loaded OS.
Let's think about the state of the world, 6 months from now. The Xbox is completely hacked, and loading Linux takes about an hour per box. If I'm running a business that needs low-cost desktops (or even low-cost servers), I might be tempted to deploy Linux Xboxes.I'm not saying this is the universal answer for everyone, but we are looking at the latest attempt at subsidized hardware in pursuit of a captive software market. I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of subsidized hardware if I can escape from software captivity. If M$ doesn't like it, then they can price the console at a level that reflects its cost.
IMHO: Of all the companies that might attempt to market unhackable devices, M$ would be dead last in their ability to pull it off. The only time-tested method of making unhackable devices requires the use of non-standard (expensive) components. This drives up the per unit cost, which is unacceptable in a subsidized hardware environment.
All the morons posting about how MS will lose money if you buy an X-Box because they're planning on selling them at a loss of $100 per need to get a clue.
Do you really think that every time you buy an X-Box, MS loses $100 (or whatever the figure is)? No, and you are a moron if you think so.
The bulk of the cost to MS on each X-Box has already been spent: R&D, initial marketing, hardware acquisition, manufacuturing process wtup, etc etc. They are what is called "sunk cost" - that refers to the fact that the money is already gone and is not affected by however many future units are made and/or sold. Incremental costs are the ones incurred every time one more X-Box is made - and they sure as shit aren't in the $400 (again, whatever the exact figure is - I'm just guessing, but the principles are the same)range.
Sure, if you do this:
[sunk costs + (incremental costs * number of units expected to be manufactured)]/number of units expected to be sold
you will probably get $400 which leads your dumbass to believe that buy spending "only" $300, you're costing MS $100. But that's an accounting trick. What you're really doing is paying for the manufacture of the box and helping MS to recoup the sunk costs - which were already written off.
In conclusion, anyone who says that they're hurting MS by buying an X-Box should tell me what company they work for and whether or not they make financial decisions for said company to help me avoid unwise stock purchases.
it's not like you were bitching about people with good old file://con/con trick to crash win9x.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I find it hard to reconcile your
taco-snotting experience with
my experience. First, you need
to know that I went on an
intimate date with cmdrTaco
last night in rock creek park.
Let me share a few observations:
-- The good news is that cmdr Taco
is indeed a caring and thoughtful
lover. He graciously sucked his
own shit clumps off my cock each
time after I throttled his hairy
arse.
-- Unfortunately, he whined like an
annoying bitch. Something about
getting leaves and mud all stuck
up in his hair.
-- His tiny cock was too limp to be
of any use, in fact he's completely
impotent.
-- He won't stop calling me, he's left
15 messages on my machine today!
He's droning on about not wanting
to grow old all alone(very unattractive).
He is so unaggressive, and docile, as well
as impotent, that I dont thing that your
taco-snotting story adds up.
So what gives? Are we talking about the
same commander, maybe there are two?
Was he just in a really laid back,
non-taco-snotting mood last night?
Perhaps the taco I had was an imposter!
P.S. I really hope you can address
these points in revision $1.9x$
Thanks!
--NASA Troll
Hard OCP's disection of the unit has a seagate hdd - but the other site's xbox had a wd hdd. Does anyone know why?
Microsoft will most certainly bust out the DMCA on you and have you arrested.
You have been warned.
M$ shareholders would most certainly demand prosecution under the DMCA. M$ will be forced to act.
Aeh.
The only problem with this argument is that no matter how many XBox's MS sells, it will NEVER make any money unless it sells games. If everyone had an xbox just to use it as an X11 server, MS would have to leave the console business. MS's problem isn't selling the consoles; they need the games. The console that has the best games will win this "war." The consoles don't sell the games, the games sell the consoles. How many people bought PS2 because of GT3? Or bought it because MGS2 was coming out for it? How many excellent games does the xbox have for it right now? I know it's just the launch titles...but MS has a lot of catching up to do.
I dunno who it is
but it prolly is fhqwhgads.
I can't www.icrontic.com for the life of me.
/. effect continues.
And once again the
Dolt.
Hands down the killer title.
And they will come out with more. By that time, if people do buy a Xbox for other reasons, then you can be sure that they will pickup one title. There wouldn't be a reason not to.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
733 MHz Celeron? ATA33 cable (and drive I assume)? 10 GB drive? as a friend said, its an eMachines computer in a black box, sold by MS. :-P
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
Did any one else notice how many cookies for ads this site tried to set? I counted about 5, and each from a different place. That is just offensive.
It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese
The XBox uses a X86 chip (Cu'mine Celeron, ie a P3 core) & a NVidia unified memory multimedia/graphics I/O chipset.
Right now Taiwan's motherboard makers are in the process of bringing out Athlon boards based on the EV6 bus version of NVidia's unified memory 'NForce' multimedia/graphics chipset.
That means that there will be X86 Linux chipset drivers for NVidia's unified memory multimedia/graphics chipset. & the next kernal revision will most probably have them pre-integrated.
This means one should, with little work (once the HDD is re-partitioned/formated, so it no longer has MS's propietry XBos filesystem on it), be able to load a standard X86 distibution on it - such as the Madrake 8/1 gaming installation.
Then any X86 Linux games should hopefully work.
What about your PS2??? Sony calls it a "Computer Enteriament system", so you can call PS2 a PC too then right? The fact is XBox is a stripped down verison of PC and so is gamecube and PS2 the biggest difference is that XBox is x86, Gamecube is PPC and god konws what PS2 is running off. And that leaves me to this conclusion, is it also safe to say that Gamecube would make a really cheap ass mac too if someone can stick a HD in? People are bitching at the fact that XBox has a HD built in, what's so bad about a HD, for once you don't actually have to buy those expensive ass memory cards so that you can safe you games. I am not saying Xbox is going to rock, but don't bitch at things that is simply not true.
kawai
8GB WD, 10GB S'gate
This was funny the first 100 times. Now it is getting boring!
Actually consoles sell at a loss in the beginning, and then they make money up in the end if the price cuts weren't too big. Imagine this, if MS keeps the X-Box for 4-5 years (considering that's the normal pace of the industry to release the next generation), how much will that GeForce 3/motherboard/hard drive/CPU be worth? I'm thinking a heck of a lot less than $299.
And as for MS never making money, the thing is that they will. Probably not on the X-Box, but like I said, they're thinking long term here as well as what Sony thought in the beginning. This is a great growth area, and literally, it is the last few places that PCs themselves grow too for the average user (multimedia/games are one of the few reasons left for your average person to buy a new computer or new parts anymore). MS can't control the licensing on PCs, so why not just make consoles and control it there?
And consoles are going to be much more than just gaming machines in the future. I think people like the idea of specialized devices that still do lots of things very well (DVD player + console is a great idea IMO and the number of people who bought the PS2 for its DVD functionality without buying games shows). Those PCs in your living room deal are starting to take form in consoles and Tivo units.
Also, I want to point out again, that I think MS has a lot of work cut out for them if they wish to dominant, but thinking that "Oh, I'm going to hurt MS by buying a console that MS is losing money on", isn't exactly hurting them either even if they are losing money. Remember, they can take a hit and keep on running (with billions in the bank and in stocks). It's not like Nintendo where this is their core business.
One last thing, I do think that MS entering the arena has got Sony and Nintendo thinking more aggressively and are starting to beef up their offerings in the future which is good. Whether or not splitting the consoles into 3 very fractured markets with quicker hardware releases (you have to assume that Sony is thinking about releasing the PS3 earlier due to the latest reports, plus that could cause MS/Nintendo to also release earlier), I don't think is such a good idea for gamers.
So I've been thinking about all this interest in hacking the XBox, and I've decided to take part in the fray. Bold statement: Hacking the XBox to do other stuff would be cool, mainly because it would earn one bragging rights, but it would be useless.
The technology in the XBox is more expensive than a comparable PC. A $300 PC has much higher resolution video, more/expandable memory, standard expansion slots, a faster/larger HD, compatability with productivity software, and some even have TV output. The one thing that it doesn't necessarily have is the DVD-ROM.
THAT'S IT.
In the time it takes you to hack this device, the hardware gap will only increase. The only advantage to owning an XBox over a PC is in its entertainment value. Porting Linux to the XBox is an absolute joke. Since when has Linux been a platform for playing video games? Porting Windows would be far more interesting, but in all seriousness, Microsoft did that for you with DirectX (hence the X in the name XBox).
Microsoft designed the XBox knowing that you're going to try, so if picking all the Microsoft protections satisfies your personal vendetta, go for it. You won't be able to market anything you come up with without a team of lawyers larger than Microsoft's, and if you're looking for render-farms, I hear that people waste CPU cycles all day long on the internet. If you convince a whole bunch of people to donate their unused CPU cycles, you benefit far faster than you do spending $300 a pop for a Box that's likely to be sold out at your local toy store for months.
Don't listen to me. I just work here.
-Mike
isnt the x-box just a vehicle on which some flavour of DirextX can be implemented in hardware???
/. gamers.. youre more'n likely ruuning windows something and more 'n likely crunching dirextX through your cpu/gpu.....
sheesh.
al you gamers out there... yes, all you
this xbox has that covered, and i'm sure the api for developers will call up directx on its own chip...
so the concept of porting it for linux/linux for it is really a matter of porting directX for linux/linux for directx
any takers??
Not only are the hard drives different brands, they are different sizes. The WD drive is 8GB while the SeaGate one is 10GB. Wonder what other differences we can expect to find...
They've already release a EV6 bus (Athlon) version of their NForce unified memory graphics/multimedia i/o chipsets.
This means that X86 Linux NForce chipset drivers are probably already out.
Here's a preview of the referance board
Here's a pic of the board
PC unified memory chipsets in the past (SIS, VIA/Trident Blade, VIA/Savage, Intel 810/815), never really had the memory bandwidth for fast gaming graphics, but with a combination of twin bank & DDR its no longer a problem.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
MS takes a bigger loss when you don't buy a unit, though.
Tradtionally, UMA is a huge performance issue because all the components are accessing memory over the same, narrow bus. However, Xbox uses AMD's HyperTransport bus, which effectively provides a dedicated channel for each device on the bus (in the Xbox's case I believe just the CPU and GPU are on the bus).
sigs are a waste of space
What I would like to see most is a VGA adapter...
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
how much will that GeForce 3/motherboard/hard drive/CPU be worth? I'm thinking a heck of a lot less than $299
Of course -- but then why would you buy an XBox two years down the road?
Only reasons I can think of is that:
1) MS uses their game licencing agreements to ensure XBox 'exclusive' titles, forcing publishers to choose between XBox and Windows.
2) MS uses their Windows contracts to ensure that OEMs don't enter the settop box market.
Either way it's got shit written all over it.
Crackhead moderators: this is +5, Hilarious material.
--
CNN declares War on Islam!
Left-wing America declares War on its Civil Liberties!
I agree whole-fartedly!
Face it, moderator.
You only hate him because he's right.
--
CNN declares War on Islam!
Left-wing America declares War on its Civil Liberties!
User Friendly :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Anyone notice how GWB never masturbates here on Saturdays? His parents must stay home that nite.
what? is that how long it takes for you to cum from sticking you pathetically small penis in your pre-teen sister's ass?
Top Ten Reasons Why I Hate the Xbox
I just wonder how long it will take until the first Linux Haxk of an XBox will be around?
Any bets? 2 weeks, 3 weeks?
GW...you know we love every hair on your 27 acre ass... and I, for one, would never do anything untowards your graceful demeanor. And you probably have several friends that would love to help you do the bear dance all over my face if I so much as spelled your name wrong. And you know I'd defend your Constitutional right to defame God in heaven. I'd even help fund your education, should you ever decide to take that route. Hell, I'd buy you a tall tepid bear-whiz beer if you were here with me, right now!
...if you can't find another topic, I'm gonna step over your dead mother's grave and kick your assuredly anesthetitized butt clear across the playground.
But.
Now go stick your shaved head back down inside the woman's toilet, and just to show there's no hard feelings, I'll jump in the tow-truck and drive right over to help you pull it right out...ok?
thanks
.. or has the quality of newbies gone down?
I reckon that cracking open a console, and being able to hack it's arse off looks like a lot of fun indeed. It may well be a PC, but it's cheap (compared to building your own), and does the job of running games better than my home brew beast, which is only a year old. The thought of squeezing out extra FPS on Halo makes me go all shivery.
Does the XBox have OpenGL support? I would assume by default that it doesn't, but a while ago I heard a rumour that Nvidia may provide support.
Can any XBox developers (or anyone in the know) please fill me in?
Some people have said about not supporting Microsoft, but buying the XBox wouldn't support them, as they make a loss on it. As long as you didn't buy any software for it, you would actually be contributing to Microsofts downfall. :)
And indeed, EVERYBODY - every man, woman and child - on this planet WANTS and NEEDS and X11 server. And indeed, EVERYBODY WILL buy XBOX for it. And ofcourse NONE of those "everyone" will want ANY games for their new XBOX.
Following this logic the PS2 Linux would be a deathblow to Sony because no-one would buy the console for games.
Firstly, don't think your going to be able to put RedHat bootdisks in and fire it up.
MS will have pretty good security here to stop this working (I know, Dreamcast's protection got hacked eventually, but we need a simpler way of doing this).
What I suggest is the Trojan way in. We need to get a boot disc that has the capability of loading something like VMware/Bochs, and is certified by MS (The tricky bit). Once that is done, we're in. We use that as a bootloader, swap discs, and carry on as usual.
Not the perfect solution, but it's a start to get a development system onto the machine.
And it would show Linux running on a XBox onto a TV, this fact alone would be an achievement, no?
So, who's up for a bit of social engineering into talking someone at MS to let us use a CDR with emulating boot code?
As an aside, does anyone know if the XBox is region locked? I'm visiting the US tomorrow and would like to know if it's worth me bring a machine back to the UK. Ta!
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Microsoft loses money on the X Box hardware and hopes to recoup it on consumers buying licensed software. If you're only going to use it as an X terminal and not buy any games then you *are* hurting Microsoft....
Is that what it was called?
pricewatch.com reports 700mhz duron systems for $238, and 850 mhz athlon systems for $258. At $299, the X-Box, requiring as-yet-to-be-determined hacks, doesn't seem like that much of a bargain for a "cheap" pc.
I rented one right on the day it came out (wasn't planning on it, but they happened to have one in). Anyways here's what I found.
X-Box IS huge hehe. This is really not that relevant for a game system I suppose.
The controllers are just plain awful! I think the worst part are the buttons- they are like little stones or something- you start hammering on those and you'll be crippled by the time you finish DOA3.
Load times are good, internal HDD is nice. Perhaps the most damning thing here is the lack of good software. DOA3 was pretty slick, but really it was DOA2 (extra points for having a drunken boxer!)- heh playing this game the controller's weaknesses were highlighted. Button position not so bad...it's the damn hardness of the buttons! (oh and only two shoulder buttons...)
Halo, now Halo was a huge disappointment for me. It just wasn't that good! Seriously I was bored by it! Had some nice graphics I guess (though not as good as they were made out to be), but there wasn't anything there that impressed me too much. This is their flagship title?
Anyways X-Box has some potential buried down in there somewhere...maybe in a year it'll have some decent software, though I think i'll have to buy aftermarket controllers!! Gamecube will have it's market almost for sure. I think PS2 is still the horse to bet on for this year...there's so many titles out (good ones) that I can't keep up at the moment. (GTA3, Ace Combat 4, Half Life, 007 Agent Under Fire, SSX Tricky, GT3, the list goes on)
64Mb is a bit on the slim side for rendering nowadays. I work in the digital effects industry, and our render farm boxes all have at least a gig of RAM. Really, I think you'd be better off buying rack systems - they won't end up that more expensive, they'll do the job properly, and you won't have to mod them yourself. And of course, they'll actually have a warranty after you've set them up... ;)
It has to be able to withstand being pulled off the TV by a drunken/stoned 20-something tripping over the controller cords. How long do you think the harddrive will last?
'Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson...'
let me know when ya get linux to run on it
The hack I want is to be able to turn my PC into an xbox on the fly. Anybody working on reverse engineering the filesystem and drive?
It's the TV-Out chip.g in e.class/Web/products/products.jsp?Type=Prod&ProdFa mId=10&ProdCatId=0&ProdSubCatId=94&PartId=278&clrT rail=yes
http://www.conexant.com/default.sph/SaServletEn
If it was doing the DVD playback it'd be marked 'Video Decoder'
and I don't think Conexant actually makes an MPEG-2 decoder chip.
HardOCP made the same mistake... Hmm...
Paul "TBBle" Hampson
Paul.Hampson@Pobox.Com
Really now. Think about it. Is it really worth the time and effort in hacking the X-Box?
We know that MS has put in all kinds of encryption/protection schemes. The hardware isn't exactly your typical PC (no USB, etc.). Ethernet won't be availble for another year. Linear memory. All of these add up to one nut that's going to be tough to crack. I'm not saying it's going to be impossible, I'm sure it'll be done at some point but is it worth it?
After all this trouble in hacking through some MS hardware, they'll issue a firmware update and *poof*, all those efforts down the tubes. We return to the assembly debugger bench and begin anew. Months later another hack comes out and we rejoice and launch MAME, Linux and whatever else we want on our game consoles only to have another update that blows away our efforts.
And for what? To have MAME or Linux run on a game console? My suggestion would be to take all that time and skill you're thinking about investing into hacking the X-Box and make Linux that much better. Write those much needed office suites, 3D apps and sound editors that we need instead of playing around with a silly game console. Let MS keep plodding away and let them battle it out with Sony and Nintentdo. Fight the battles worth fighting.
liB
Database error: connect(localhost,mortin,PASSWORD) failed.
real secure there buddy...
my password is PASSWORD.
off-topic/flamebait my ass. fuck you mod bitches. IT'S FUNNY.
http://kered.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have a PS2 and the load times suck a$$.
Curious as to how they compare...
Magius_AR
If we don't buy any, they lose even more money. Instead of losing ~$125, they lose ~$424.
I don't know if it's worth bringing back, since its output will be NTSC and you'll need a multiformat TV or some other piece of hardware that converts the NTSC signal to PAL.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
According to This Site the xbox doesn't support CD-R disks but does support CD-RW. I would really like to see one of these take-apart articles see if the DVD drive is standard and see where MS tried to put in this no CDR policy
I'm pretty sure the XBox is for sale at "regular" retail stores. There is no way that retail stores are going to go to the trouble of getting signed contracts from each person who buys an XBox. It would just be too much of a hassle, and they would have to refuse to sell the product to the most obvious market: minors. Therefore, regardless of whatever claims Microsoft (or pieces of paper inside the box) may make, there can't reasonably be any EULA for this product.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Of course, there is the argument that we're just throwing money back into the devils pocket. Actually though, we're not. MS is taking about $100's loss per unit.
Yeah, so buying an XBox is like stealing $100 from MS. I urge you all to go buy one now!!! It's your duty as a slashdot reader!!!
do not read this line twice.
I seems you don't understand the concept of selling something at a loss.
They lose MORE money if you buy it. Try to follow the logic here: Costs them $X, they sell it for $X-$100. Result: you buy one, their balance sheet is $-100. You don't buy one and their balance sheet is $0.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
I'm not an accountant, but haven't they already paid for the completed units? So they'd already be down the $X? Say they have Y units. If they sold none, they'd be down Y x $X. If they sold all Y units, they'd be down Y x $100.
So solve for Y, I guess.
I'm am making the (correct...wait and see) asumption that all of the boxes will be sold to sombody. It's a safe bet.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
I have some maps for UT that are 4mg is size alone. Surely they jest with us.
I'm surprised they did not put in a 40gb drive. It about where the lower end price/size break is. (eg cost per meg)
By my estimates its about 40gb on the low end and 80gb on the high end. Any bigger or smaller than that, and you start paying through the nose for little extra bang.
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
It's an 8 bit wide, 8 megabit (1 megabyte) part in a TSOP 40 pin package.
The closeups the chips on the "we took one apart" pages always seem to leave this part out. It's being multiply-sourced: I've seen Hyundai, Intel and ST Micro in the various pictures, but the part number I could read was the Hyndai (now Hynix) HY29F080T-50 (pdf datasheet). I'm not sure about that -50. It was blurry and the standard part only comes in speeds up to 70ns (flash is slow, by the way).
The code in this part is probably what needs to be hacked/replaced with something that doesn't care about signatures on boot drives if we're to load "unauthorized" software.
You need the right equipment to get this puppy off intact (to read it in a ROM burner) and to avoid damaging the PCB, but it isn't rocket science. The trick is to heat all the pins on one side at once. A low-power microscope (when I worked in a bio lab we called 'em dissecting scopes) is a good idea too 'cause I don't think the warranty will apply if you screw it up.
There are sockets available for this part so multiple attempts at an "open" BIOS can be made without repeated soldering.
Everything will be cheaper next year -- the video cards as well as the Xbox. An honest comparison would be this year's commodity hardware vs. this year's Xbox.
BTW, the bargain-basement PC costs far more than $323 if assembly labor is factored in. I could be wrong on this, but hacking an Xbox is probably quicker than building a PC. The last time I tried to build a cheapie PC for someone, I discovered the ribbon cable on the front-panel switches and LEDs was too short to reach the motherboard (it was a hefty-sized case). I had to cut the cable and manufacture a sleazy "extension cord" out of cat.5 cable. Thirty-two stripped wires and sixteen solder connections later, it worked, but what a pain! Anyone who has built PCs knows the typical hazards: DOA parts, ill-fitting cases or cards, short-cable syndrome. These things don't happen every time, but unless you are running a PC factory where you repeatedly assemble the same configuration over and over again, you have to factor in at least a few hours to build the PC.
I keep seeing comments talking about hacking this thing into a $300 linux box.
What's wrong with you?
A quick visit to pricewatch.com will show you can build a higher spec'ed system yourself:
1GHz CPU: $60
Mobo: $60 or less
256MB RAM: $30
20GB HD: $70 or less
DVD: $40 or less
GeForce2 MX200: $40 or less
SoundBlaster Live! Value: $20
Total: ~$300
You can pick up a keyboard, mouse, controller, and modem/NIC for under $30 total if you have decent computer store near you.
If you want a console that plays its games and is also linux ready, check out the Dreamcast. It's been said many times on this forum before. $70 gets you the base system, and for $30 more you can have the keyboard and mouse too.
obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
> Of course, there is the argument that we're just throwing money back into the devils pocket. Actually though, we're not. MS is taking about $100's loss per unit.
The success of a game console is directly tied to the number of games released for it. Game developers are more willing to sign on if the console shows high sales figures. You are inflating the xbox sales figures, and so more developers will jump onboard (and even abandon other consoles). So in the end, you are helping microsoft succeed in this new market.
The connector labeled "DEBUG" appears to be an ITP connection. Good news: Anybody with an American Arium should be able to populate the connector and do low-level software debugging. Bad News: You gotta have an American Arium (or equiv) to use it. (Ariums are around USD $17,000 if memory serves).
The author of the article is smoking crack if he thinks "jumpering" anything in that connector is going to get him into BIOS.
-Q (waiting to do his own X-Box Autopsy)
So true.
Actually, I work in retail. The accounting is weird, but basically, they have paid for the boxen already. Simplisticly: ux + y + gz = d.
where, at time=1 (launch day)
u=number of units (XBox) made
x=cost per XBox
y=advertising costs
g=number of accessories made
z=avg. cost per accessory
d=debt
As time goes on, it becomes cheaper to make boxes, games, etc. This is due to the system being in place, and for the kinks to have been resolved (manufacturing, delivery, as well as service).
Advertising costs go down as word of mouth increases also.
If they are operating the XBox as a seperate business (remember, tax breaks for business' that report a loss), then they only make back money spent when we buy something.
It is true that the console is their loss leader (ie the object sold purposefully at a loss to increase sales of profitable items, noted by others as games, controllers, mem cards etc), but without it, they have no continuing source of revenue.
Don't buy the XBox, and you don't buy the games and other periferals, causing the XBox business to stay in debt for a longer period of time.
Of course, there is the argument that we're just throwing money back into the devils pocket. Actually though, we're not. MS is taking about $100's loss per unit.
Keep in mind that I might buy this but...
You do realize that if you DO NOT BUY it they'll have a MUCH GREATER loss per unit? Let's do the math. Buy one is -100 dollars for MS. Don't buy one is -400 (they cost 300 right?) for MS.
Of course they'll get bought by somebody anyway, so buying it (with MS losing money) and then putting Linux on it is a lot more spit in MS's eye then just losing money... They have so much is just ridiculous. They could make money probably just from interest if they only charged a nominal fee for their software. (NB: Just a wild guess, I have no idea if that's true or not.)
No sig for you.
Screw ease of portability, since it is basically an nForce based PC, what is preventing people from writing an execution environment/mini os for plain old PC's that allow XBox games to be executed _natively_?
`which fortune`
Think of how many of the great games came out two year later for most of the consoles. When did Gran Turismo 2, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Final Fantasy, etc. come out? Usually over a year and half past the launch. This might have to do with the fact the games are epic and need further development time, an agreement with the console maker (so that you keep up sales), or just the fact that they want to release a game with better special effects and don't want to ruin the other games.
Do you know what was the number one selling console up till last year (even when the PS2 was out for around a year)? Yup, you guessed it, the PSOne. Oh yeah, all those PS2 games that are being raved about (GT3, GTA3, THPS3, MGS2, DMC, Ico)? It's over a year from the official launch that they're finally appearing and some of the bigger ones have yet to appear (FFX, FFXI, Jak and Daxter)...
Also, when 2 years have passed, I bet the "winner(s)" of the console wars for this generation will have been decided, so all those that waited will play catch up. Furthermore, those waiting for price cuts, more availability, more titles, or just those that waited before buying into the hype will buy it at the later date. Not everyone gets into a frenzy over launch days.
This article is spam for a wannabe. "Oh look its a hard drive"
"Oh read the silk screen" Who cares, we can all see this for ourseleves. Give us something good. Stick your HS paste to your arse coz its getting pretty red with all that hot gas comin outta there not because theres any Oclockin goin on over there. The Dreamcast hacks from the last year or so are awesome, this is a waste of space and lots of very cheap pcs being sold by MS.
Cheers.
Left-wing America declares War on its Civil Liberties!
uhh...seems to me that it's dubya and his minions that want to read our email, tap our phones, have backdoors to our encryption and prosecute folks using secret military courts.
dumbass dittohead bitch...........
I'm sure you don't see the painfully delicious irony in your post. So let me spell it out for you.
Bungee, the developer of Halo (before they were assimilated by Microsoft) was previously known for their sci-fi Doom-era superior shoot-em-up game, Marathon.
Intense stuff.
For a further, slightly aged dose of Irony, note that Marathon was a Macintosh based game. There was only a piddling port to Microsoft OSes much later.
I have a page I made that shares some of my experiences with the xbox and gamecube hardware. Of interest to those reading this thread is the XBOX rom extraction. I have the ROM binaries...but holding off on posting them on a large forum due to worries over legal ramifications...
So you'd by an MS product, which is probably against your geeky principals, just so you could install Linux on it, after you've installed Linux a million times in your life and still have found no use for it. Just buy WindowsXP, and install all your games and apps on it. And then put that slow PS2 on the shelf and get yourself a console with a bit of power! You're life will be easier and happier in the end! Or you could just grep yourself all night, while viewing porn with Netscape on a Linux machine, all while piping yourselves up the buffer! LOSERS!
It was designed and distributed by MATSUSHITA one of Nintendos strongest partners. So, its not piracy, its Matsushitas version of Gamecube.
Slashdot is so spoiled lately.
Was there this much hooplah over the phony XBOX isos, too?
truth :-(
Yeah, Microsoft actually expect to lose £68-£102 on each box sold.
Gotta remember they are gonna make some money off every piece of software produced for it though.
Off Topic: Sony expect to lose £57 off each PS2 and Nintendo predict losses of £17-£20 of each Gamecube sold. Gotta wonder if they make these figures up though...