" Wow. As a somewhat laid-back debian desktop user who primarily runs the testing builds, my thoughts were mostly about how we can finally start to test X.org now that sarge is going to be out of the way.
Bitching about not having it until now didn't really occur to me. "
"Otherwise, in a few years apt-based distros, like Ubuntu, will make Debian irrelevant."
I can't even begin to imagine the amount of manpower Ubuntu (or other) would need to take the place of Debian. If Debian died, right now, Ubuntu would would be in a world of hurt. Without the vast amount of manpower and hours that go into Debian, Ubuntu would be irrelevant (or rather, non-existant).
I am really getting sick of hearing people saying essentially "Ubuntu is going to take over the world!". Lets see Ubuntu step down off Debians shoulders, then we'll see who holds the real power. Note, I have nothing against Ubuntu, other than the fact that it's simply not as good as everybody makes it out to be. I've tried it, on multiple machines (including my main Debian box which runs Sarge flawlessly), and it really cannot hold a candle to Debian in stablility. It has a rushed feeling to it. That xorg falls over at the drop of a hat does not help.
"*That's* the reason you see people migrating to Ubuntu en masse. It's all the technical goodness of Debian on a sane development schedule and with a friendly user base."
People can migrate to Ubuntu all they want, but xorg is NOT stable in that distro, in fact, there is alot that is not (regardless of what the Ubuntu cheerleaders say). My prediction? Very shortly after the release, you will see a mass migration BACK to Debian. Just keep an eye on Distrowatch, because you're going to have the privlege of witnessing a miracle of mass proportions. The numbers that are going to show will testify to what a big dog can do.
As far as xorg not being in Sarge, it was an unfortunate decision made when they thought the release was going to be sooner, and they did not think they had time to do everything needed to get it in. Be assured it will be backported ASAP, and possible be included in an update. Yes, xorg is big, everybody knows it, don't make the assumption that the Debian maintainers don't know they made a mistake when they made the decision they did, they've admitted that. Don't also assume they don't plan to correct that mistake the best way they can.
I agree with you 100%.. other than the part about Debian being broke, because they're not (a non-profit organization's books aren't gonna, nor should they have to or be expected to, look like an actual companies books). That is a bit of Slash-sensationalism there:).
Knoppix is my back-up distro, for when I poke Debian in the wrong way and it bites me hehe.
All I can say is, vote with your wallets. I will never buy any music that is copy protected. If there comes a time when I can't go in a store (local brick and morter preferablly, last resort purchase online) and buy a non-protected cd with the music I want on it (a real, hold-it-in-your-hand cd), then the "powers that be" will never see another red cent from me.
"don't be surprised if most people move on to other projects/distros where "just works" is more important than "ohh, new shiny""
Umm, guess Debian is the one that "just works" and Ubuntu is "ohh, new shiny", as that is what my experience has been (ohh, shiny... *crash*... opps). My prediction is that as soon as Sarge goes stable everyone (well, not everyone, but a lot of them) using Ubuntu will come back to Debian.. cause there's nothing like the real thing baby!
So... stick it in the microwave. Then you get your can 'o shut the @$@@ up at the temperature you desire, plus a nice light show to keep you amused while you wait:D.
"Does anyone else out there think that M$ deliberatly sabatoges users machines slowly so that users think they need to buy new machines every other year?"
One could arguable say that what you propose as a "small" change is actually a massive one. But then, feel free to start a service like that yourself if you think it would work. I'm sure you'd get a lot of people to sign on, right before you went bankrupt lol.
Reminds me of wearing my OS/2 "Been there, Done that" t-shirt on that hot August night back in '95, going into Comp-USA at midnight, eating pizza and drinking sodas on BG's tab whilst watching the drones line up to get their fix of Win95. Course me and a couple guys were cruising the "Other" isle. Did get an odd look from the MS rep. I just smiled and waved:D.
" I really don't think that users being able to administer their systems should be considered a serious problem when considering linux on the desktop."
And this, I think, says it all in a nutshell. Excellent. Thank you.
Actually I think a point that is being missed is the fact that there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for a *user* to need the command line.
I must dissagree though, that command lines are history. They still have their place as a very powerful tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use it (in general this is not a user).
Advice for problem 2. Use a stable distro. I'd be very surprised to see Debian stable hiccup over a dependancy issue.
As for problem 1, use Synaptic instead of the cli.
Though I agree there are still some hurdles to be overcome in the software installation area. Not to say there's not problems in the "Windows way" either (dll hell anyone?).
"(Obligatory Gentoo comment) It's more letters than just typing "emerge PROGRAMX"?;-)"
(Obligatory Debian comment) It may be more letters but it still doesn't take as long;) . Course there's always alias's, those even the playing field somewhat:).
Well, I guess there could be 2 catagories here, "tech savvy" grandmas (I might fall into that catagory, as I am old enough to be a grandma, female, over 40 and 20+ years in the comp industry), and "user" grandmas (they use the "intarweb" and exchange recipes with other grandma's via email). I'm assuming we are talking about the latter type, of which "my" mom would fall into (over 60 and 0 years in the comp industry).
Most Linux systems that would be used by "Grandma" would likely be set up in a way that is very simple to use, by someone that *does* know how to read a man page. All they need is a button to access the WWW, a button to access email, and a button to access solitaire (lol), with everything else locked down and out of sight. This is easy to do. For the most part (in my experience), older people that are inexperienced with computers are quite scared to mess with anything they don't understand, because it might "blow up" their "cpu". They do not admin systems, they USE them, and usually in very limited amounts (yes, there are exceptions). I still don't why some people say how hard it is to use Linux. How is it harder than using windows? You click on a "button" and the program runs. Wow, really takes a genius to do that hehe. Now setting up and admining a system is different. I would no more hand the task of installing and configuring Linux to my mom than I would have her try to install and configure windows. She could do neither. People that aren't tech savvy simply buy pre-configged machines. Linux or windows, really doesn't matter, *using* either one should be a trivial matter for anyone that wishes to do so.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever that Linux may be harder to install than windows, as it tends to scare off those that would not be able to properly config the machine for security (haven't we all seen instances of someone being an ignoramus running root?). This is a two sided blade though, as those same people don't think twice about installing windows ("Oh look, a '98 cd." click-click-next wizard users), although in general they *still* don't know how to properly secure their machine, hence millons of owned zombie machines freely roaming the net.
Disclaimer: This is not a bash at windows users, it's an observation of *clueless* windows users.
I really have the feeling that it was a boneheaded mistake rather than any malicious intent to mislead. I mean, really. What is gained by it when the information is included in a package that consists of both versions of the movie? (as several of the movies listed are/were sold that way)
" I've got the Rob Reiner-supervised Criterion laserdisc of This Is Spinal Tap. "
Oh DUDE! I am insanely jealous! Sweet:).
Had a chance to get a laser disk player with a stack of disks about 2 ft high a couple years ago for $150. I've felt like an idiot ever since I didn't go for it:/.
Yep, I really MUST watch the full screen version so that I won't miss anything the *director intended* to be in it.. like mics and other parts of the set that are hidden by that pesky matte. Jeeze. Somebody needs to have a drink and cool off. Its friday night, get drunk and watch a movie. I'll take a "butchered widescreen" thank you very much, as unwanted set pieces in the frame are too distracting for me.
Hmmm, A Fish Called Wanda sounds good to me, and why, yes, it is right here:). Must unwind from the intensity that is Battlestar Galactica.
"because the problem has been fixed since sept 2003."
Nothing has been "fixed", since nothing was ever "broken" other than MGM's decription of the difference between the widescreen, and fullscreen version that's in the packaging.
Actually there are 3 choices, you listed 2, the 3rd one being that you can keep your DVD which is in no way defective.
This is not about the widescreen version not being a true widescreen version (the article is in dire error on that point), it is about the insert included with the DVD saying the full frame version is pan and scan, when it is open matte.
Slashdot Mirror
" Wow. As a somewhat laid-back debian desktop user who primarily runs the testing builds, my thoughts were mostly about how we can finally start to test X.org now that sarge is going to be out of the way.
:). Sanity at last.
Bitching about not having it until now didn't really occur to me. "
Ah, a like minded individual
"Otherwise, in a few years apt-based distros, like Ubuntu, will make Debian irrelevant."
I can't even begin to imagine the amount of manpower Ubuntu (or other) would need to take the place of Debian. If Debian died, right now, Ubuntu would would be in a world of hurt. Without the vast amount of manpower and hours that go into Debian, Ubuntu would be irrelevant (or rather, non-existant).
I am really getting sick of hearing people saying essentially "Ubuntu is going to take over the world!". Lets see Ubuntu step down off Debians shoulders, then we'll see who holds the real power. Note, I have nothing against Ubuntu, other than the fact that it's simply not as good as everybody makes it out to be. I've tried it, on multiple machines (including my main Debian box which runs Sarge flawlessly), and it really cannot hold a candle to Debian in stablility. It has a rushed feeling to it. That xorg falls over at the drop of a hat does not help.
"*That's* the reason you see people migrating to Ubuntu en masse. It's all the technical goodness of Debian on a sane development schedule and with a friendly user base."
People can migrate to Ubuntu all they want, but xorg is NOT stable in that distro, in fact, there is alot that is not (regardless of what the Ubuntu cheerleaders say). My prediction? Very shortly after the release, you will see a mass migration BACK to Debian. Just keep an eye on Distrowatch, because you're going to have the privlege of witnessing a miracle of mass proportions. The numbers that are going to show will testify to what a big dog can do.
As far as xorg not being in Sarge, it was an unfortunate decision made when they thought the release was going to be sooner, and they did not think they had time to do everything needed to get it in. Be assured it will be backported ASAP, and possible be included in an update. Yes, xorg is big, everybody knows it, don't make the assumption that the Debian maintainers don't know they made a mistake when they made the decision they did, they've admitted that. Don't also assume they don't plan to correct that mistake the best way they can.
You have a blinding grip on the obvious.
Nerdy case mods are one thing, slapping decals on the sides and calling it a mod is quite another.
I agree with you 100%.. other than the part about Debian being broke, because they're not (a non-profit organization's books aren't gonna, nor should they have to or be expected to, look like an actual companies books). That is a bit of Slash-sensationalism there :).
Knoppix is my back-up distro, for when I poke Debian in the wrong way and it bites me hehe.
All I can say is, vote with your wallets. I will never buy any music that is copy protected. If there comes a time when I can't go in a store (local brick and morter preferablly, last resort purchase online) and buy a non-protected cd with the music I want on it (a real, hold-it-in-your-hand cd), then the "powers that be" will never see another red cent from me.
From that time forward, Viva la usenet!!
"last time i checked they did"
Man, it's obviously been a long time since you've been to McD's. Last time *I* checked, burgers were like, 89 cents.
"don't be surprised if most people move on to other projects/distros where "just works" is more important than "ohh, new shiny""
Umm, guess Debian is the one that "just works" and Ubuntu is "ohh, new shiny", as that is what my experience has been (ohh, shiny... *crash*... opps). My prediction is that as soon as Sarge goes stable everyone (well, not everyone, but a lot of them) using Ubuntu will come back to Debian.. cause there's nothing like the real thing baby!
So... stick it in the microwave. Then you get your can 'o shut the @$@@ up at the temperature you desire, plus a nice light show to keep you amused while you wait :D.
"Does anyone else out there think that M$ deliberatly sabatoges users machines slowly so that users think they need to buy new machines every other year?"
This is known as planned obsolescence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
One could arguable say that what you propose as a "small" change is actually a massive one. But then, feel free to start a service like that yourself if you think it would work. I'm sure you'd get a lot of people to sign on, right before you went bankrupt lol.
Reminds me of wearing my OS/2 "Been there, Done that" t-shirt on that hot August night back in '95, going into Comp-USA at midnight, eating pizza and drinking sodas on BG's tab whilst watching the drones line up to get their fix of Win95. Course me and a couple guys were cruising the "Other" isle. Did get an odd look from the MS rep. I just smiled and waved :D.
" I really don't think that users being able to administer their systems should be considered a serious problem when considering linux on the desktop."
And this, I think, says it all in a nutshell. Excellent. Thank you.
You guys should really have a look at Synaptic ;).
Actually I think a point that is being missed is the fact that there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for a *user* to need the command line.
I must dissagree though, that command lines are history. They still have their place as a very powerful tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use it (in general this is not a user).
Advice for problem 2. Use a stable distro. I'd be very surprised to see Debian stable hiccup over a dependancy issue. As for problem 1, use Synaptic instead of the cli. Though I agree there are still some hurdles to be overcome in the software installation area. Not to say there's not problems in the "Windows way" either (dll hell anyone?).
"(Obligatory Gentoo comment) It's more letters than just typing "emerge PROGRAMX"? ;-)"
;) . Course there's always alias's, those even the playing field somewhat :).
(Obligatory Debian comment) It may be more letters but it still doesn't take as long
Well, I guess there could be 2 catagories here, "tech savvy" grandmas (I might fall into that catagory, as I am old enough to be a grandma, female, over 40 and 20+ years in the comp industry), and "user" grandmas (they use the "intarweb" and exchange recipes with other grandma's via email). I'm assuming we are talking about the latter type, of which "my" mom would fall into (over 60 and 0 years in the comp industry).
Most Linux systems that would be used by "Grandma" would likely be set up in a way that is very simple to use, by someone that *does* know how to read a man page. All they need is a button to access the WWW, a button to access email, and a button to access solitaire (lol), with everything else locked down and out of sight. This is easy to do. For the most part (in my experience), older people that are inexperienced with computers are quite scared to mess with anything they don't understand, because it might "blow up" their "cpu". They do not admin systems, they USE them, and usually in very limited amounts (yes, there are exceptions). I still don't why some people say how hard it is to use Linux. How is it harder than using windows? You click on a "button" and the program runs. Wow, really takes a genius to do that hehe. Now setting up and admining a system is different. I would no more hand the task of installing and configuring Linux to my mom than I would have her try to install and configure windows. She could do neither. People that aren't tech savvy simply buy pre-configged machines. Linux or windows, really doesn't matter, *using* either one should be a trivial matter for anyone that wishes to do so.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever that Linux may be harder to install than windows, as it tends to scare off those that would not be able to properly config the machine for security (haven't we all seen instances of someone being an ignoramus running root?). This is a two sided blade though, as those same people don't think twice about installing windows ("Oh look, a '98 cd." click-click-next wizard users), although in general they *still* don't know how to properly secure their machine, hence millons of owned zombie machines freely roaming the net.
Disclaimer: This is not a bash at windows users, it's an observation of *clueless* windows users.
I really have the feeling that it was a boneheaded mistake rather than any malicious intent to mislead. I mean, really. What is gained by it when the information is included in a package that consists of both versions of the movie? (as several of the movies listed are/were sold that way)
" I've got the Rob Reiner-supervised Criterion laserdisc of This Is Spinal Tap. " Oh DUDE! I am insanely jealous! Sweet :).
Had a chance to get a laser disk player with a stack of disks about 2 ft high a couple years ago for $150. I've felt like an idiot ever since I didn't go for it :/.
Yep, I really MUST watch the full screen version so that I won't miss anything the *director intended* to be in it.. like mics and other parts of the set that are hidden by that pesky matte. Jeeze. Somebody needs to have a drink and cool off. Its friday night, get drunk and watch a movie. I'll take a "butchered widescreen" thank you very much, as unwanted set pieces in the frame are too distracting for me. Hmmm, A Fish Called Wanda sounds good to me, and why, yes, it is right here :). Must unwind from the intensity that is Battlestar Galactica.
"because the problem has been fixed since sept 2003." Nothing has been "fixed", since nothing was ever "broken" other than MGM's decription of the difference between the widescreen, and fullscreen version that's in the packaging.
He didn't say the widescreen version will have mics, he said the fullscreen version will since it's open matte.
Actually there are 3 choices, you listed 2, the 3rd one being that you can keep your DVD which is in no way defective. This is not about the widescreen version not being a true widescreen version (the article is in dire error on that point), it is about the insert included with the DVD saying the full frame version is pan and scan, when it is open matte.