Xorg will *not* be in testing any time soon. The Debian devs are waiting for a modular release of xorg before they start packaging it (this was the hold up in the first place, they did not WANT the monolithic version of xorg to start with). I have no idea when this will be, but they can keep the buggy version that is in Ubuntu OUT of Debian thank-you-VERY-much.
Don't know what your friends problem was, but there are, like, 2 more questions asked in the Debian install than in the Ubuntu install. Otherwise, identical. No, right now I can't be bothered to go and compare the install screenshots between the 2, so if I'm off by a question or two, sue me. Both install fine (on my machine) by accepting all the defaults, and pointing it to the partition to install on. Likely after running through the Sarge install, when they tried Hoary the previous experiece with that installer (since it is the same one that is in Sarge) helped on that attempt to install. Likely they would have gotten Sarge to work on that attempt also.
"I think what most people are suggesting is that Ubuntu is more capable of managing Debian than Debian is. They're ridiculously slow to release, and its not as if the holdups yield stability."
I certainly don't see many people saying that (and for sure not "most"), and on the occasion I do see one, I laugh at them. Ubuntu is ok, but it's Debian Lite. The last release was slow, nobody will dispute that, but there were definitely reasons why that happened, not the least of which was changes to policy which required a good bit of attention in order to move forward. I would also say that the new installer probably ate up it's fair chunk of time. Now, Ubuntu doesn't have to do things like write an installer that will work on 11 different architectures, but they sure have no problem grabbing whatever works at the time and packaging it. I'd say there's a fair bit of difference in the management of the 2 projects, in that one of them does 99% of the work, and the other grabbs a mostly finished product, puts a polish on it and sends it out the door.
"Recently we had an article on/. about how unstable Debian Stable was."
Oh really? Wow, I actually read that, but that's not what it was. It was an article that in fact stated that some users didn't read the release notes, and therefore did not update the *BROKEN VERSION OF APT THAT WAS IN WOODY* before they upgraded as was reccomended, and encounted some difficulties. Don't wanna read the instructions? Maybe Linux is not for you.
"Debian Unstable is rarely the latest and greatest."
Maybe not, but 99% of the time it's certainly closer to that than Ubuntu is.
"Debian should be dead. My crystal ball gives it about 6 more months."
Ubuntu *is* Debian, with a few packages changed to the extent that they break Debian compatability (not to mention stability.. take xorg.. please), and scripts to do just a *teeny tiny* bit more configuring at install. This is it. No more, no less. It is NO easier to *use* than Debian. It is *slighty* easier to install to a preconfigured desktop at first, but by default you end up in sudo jail. That is all. I eagerly tried both Warty and Hoary, only to find that there was much more hype than substance. There really is only trivial difference between them and Debian, and most of the differences were offputting. I'll take the real deal over them any day.
"Stable - Server Testing - Desktop Unstable - Testing"
Brief mapping debian reality revisited: You Said Plain BullShit!
Stable - All purpouse/all users; it is only Debian's "public" product (meant for non-debian development interested users) Testing - For... well... testing integration Unstable - For... well... first pass unstable integration"
What he said was perfectly acceptable. As far as yours, the "first pass unstable integration" generally does NOT happen in Unstable, it happens in Experimental, which usually doesn't get much talk other than by the hardcore Debianites.
For desktop use, Testing is, in general, MORE than stable enough (it's certainly more stable than Ubuntu).
I guess you don't read the dev mailing lists. From what I've seen so far (granted I haven't kept up with it for the last month or so) the version of xorg in ubuntu will have nothing whatsoever to do with the version that will be released in Debian as the developers for Debian didn't seem to like the way the Ubuntu developers brought it in. Therefore the work originally done in Ubuntu will have no bearing at all on Etch.
"they didn't get to where they are today by employing idiots."
No, they got to where they are today by using uncompettitive and sometimes downright illegal tactics. What.. you don't think these actions will eventually catch up to them? Do you not understand karma?
I am 40, and really have no interest WHATSOEVER in gangsters and zombies. Give me driving/racing games, rpg's and other sim-like things (Yes, I like the sims, and sim city type stuff.. Maxis rules), strategy games.. those are the kinds of things I'll buy. Oh, and Halo (course I guess Halo has some zombie element to it):D. As far as Nintendo, I STILL don't have a Gamecube, been too busy with my XBox in what free time I do have, but I do want to get one, and the Revolution.. that seems like it's gonna be really cool, being able to download all the classic games.. yep, might be on my _to_buy_ list as well. I need to find out if the revolution will play Gamecube games also, not really looked into it too much (nor has Nintendo shoved much info about it down our throats). My Nintendo thoughts don't gravitate to Mario and Donkey Kong, they are more like, Ultima, Final Fantasy, Goldeneye.. SMB was fun, but my fave Mario game would be Super Mario Cart.
"Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilization; And you accuse Americans of being self centered..."
I don't think there's anything self centered in the observation that Europe gave us civilization, Rome, Greece... America just doesn't have that kind of history.
Actually, 5% is the maximum fine. The $5M number is just being bantied around because it's close to that. If MS were to make more, the fine would increase to whatever monetary number equaled that percentage.
Your post sounds a bit naive. It's not ironic that MS have the most money, and an inferior product, that is the norm for a company in a monopolistic position. No competition, no reason to do anything better. Just keep the party line.
As far as the real moral of this story, I don't know where you got the idea that MS was trying to do anything good, because the only place you'll hear that is from them and their fanbois, the *only* motivation they have is the competition that has cropped up to threaten them. If that had not occurred, they'd be doing absolutely nothing more than they had for the last 10+ years. Lets just say, MS have definetly noticed Linux, and they are feeling quite threatened... mainly because they have no idea what to do about Linux, because it's not a company, and it can't be bought, or undersold into bankruptcy.
MS have had the market in stagnation for far too long. It's about time we saw some action in the arena. Topple the giant I say.
So, you get a bunch of cd's sent to you *that are yours to keep* for $5 a month? I didn't think so.
I care not to rent my music. No thank you. I'll buy (DRM free) cd's and continue to download other stuff (obsolete, can't find on cd's, encumbered by DRM otherwise, etc) from usenet. You'd think there was no alternative to the P2P networks. In my eyes, bittorent is good for distributing legit files, not so good for questionable activities as it was never intended to be used that way, and is easily tracked.
"I don't know anyone who would rather watch a show via bittorrent on their computer than watch it on the big screen TV, especially if it was recorded in by their DVR so they can skip commericals."
It's too bad that you're doing nothing but showing your own ignorance on the subject at hand. Personally I burn them onto a cd and throw it into the dvd player to watch it. Nobody that I know downloads shows to watch them on the pc.
"Ummm.... How would they connect to recieve the information in the first place? IRC? FTP? TelNet? HTTP sure seems to be out since they won't have a browser..."
Funny that, it's strange, innit, that when you install Linux, it can so automagically go out on the internet, download and install whatever browser you want to, without you having to use a browser? It's like magic, or sumthin. Guess MS think their customers are too dumb to look at a list that some app might generate giving them choices of browsers, choose one and hit the "do it" button. Judging by how many times I see the question "Well how are we expected to get a browser when we don't have a browser to go online and do that with?" (worded slightly differently here and there, but same idea), they may well be correct. Those users are under some impression that it's a chicken/egg kinda deal, when just the tiniest bit of logical thought would come up with a workable answer since back in the day we used to get disks and stuff, with browsers and whatnot on them from like, stores. I don't see how that could be too hard.
Debian is doing well regardless. Fast forward to the near future when Sarge is released stable. All the Ubunters that ditched Debian for newer packages will be back in droves, playing with the *truely* new stuff that will be in Etch and Sid, and alot the ones that tried Ubuntu as a "newb" distro will test the Debian waters when they're ready to remove the training wheels (or figure out that it's not quite as shiny a thing as most make it out to be).
Been there, done that, tested Ubuntu, dropped it like a hot rock. Not quite ready for mass consumption there, lotta hype, big stablity problems. Personally I don't want to trade stability for the latest eye-candy.
"Meh! I don't care much for children. They're unconsiderate, egoistic and rude, and for Pete's sake there's TOO MANY of them. As with everything there are exceptions, and they tend to get picked on in school because they can think independently."
Translation : I'm a teenager and I got picked on at school (and I make myself feel better by telling myself I'm "special") and I hate all the other kids.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but as a parent I can tell you that there is nothing better than your children. Once you gain a bit of maturity and wisdom maybe you will come to appreciate children, because, as cliche as this may sound, they are our future.
"In that case, Debian must have the worst testers in the world. Seriously, has anyone found any applications that are broken by X.org? "
Not as yet, since xorg is not available for testing yet, but when it is, I'm sure they will, and people such as yourself should be grateful for that instead of critisizing them.
You need to chill, and see how this plays out instead of thinking you know exactly how everything is going to happen.
Slashdot Mirror
Xorg will *not* be in testing any time soon. The Debian devs are waiting for a modular release of xorg before they start packaging it (this was the hold up in the first place, they did not WANT the monolithic version of xorg to start with). I have no idea when this will be, but they can keep the buggy version that is in Ubuntu OUT of Debian thank-you-VERY-much.
There is a reason people use apt-listbugs.
BTW, wtf is wrong with Slackware?
Don't know what your friends problem was, but there are, like, 2 more questions asked in the Debian install than in the Ubuntu install. Otherwise, identical. No, right now I can't be bothered to go and compare the install screenshots between the 2, so if I'm off by a question or two, sue me. Both install fine (on my machine) by accepting all the defaults, and pointing it to the partition to install on. Likely after running through the Sarge install, when they tried Hoary the previous experiece with that installer (since it is the same one that is in Sarge) helped on that attempt to install. Likely they would have gotten Sarge to work on that attempt also.
"I think what most people are suggesting is that Ubuntu is more capable of managing Debian than Debian is. They're ridiculously slow to release, and its not as if the holdups yield stability."
/. about how unstable Debian Stable was."
I certainly don't see many people saying that (and for sure not "most"), and on the occasion I do see one, I laugh at them. Ubuntu is ok, but it's Debian Lite. The last release was slow, nobody will dispute that, but there were definitely reasons why that happened, not the least of which was changes to policy which required a good bit of attention in order to move forward. I would also say that the new installer probably ate up it's fair chunk of time. Now, Ubuntu doesn't have to do things like write an installer that will work on 11 different architectures, but they sure have no problem grabbing whatever works at the time and packaging it. I'd say there's a fair bit of difference in the management of the 2 projects, in that one of them does 99% of the work, and the other grabbs a mostly finished product, puts a polish on it and sends it out the door.
"Recently we had an article on
Oh really? Wow, I actually read that, but that's not what it was. It was an article that in fact stated that some users didn't read the release notes, and therefore did not update the *BROKEN VERSION OF APT THAT WAS IN WOODY* before they upgraded as was reccomended, and encounted some difficulties. Don't wanna read the instructions? Maybe Linux is not for you.
"Debian Unstable is rarely the latest and greatest."
Maybe not, but 99% of the time it's certainly closer to that than Ubuntu is.
"Debian should be dead. My crystal ball gives it about 6 more months."
Methinks your magic 8 ball is broken.
Ubuntu *is* Debian, with a few packages changed to the extent that they break Debian compatability (not to mention stability.. take xorg.. please), and scripts to do just a *teeny tiny* bit more configuring at install. This is it. No more, no less. It is NO easier to *use* than Debian. It is *slighty* easier to install to a preconfigured desktop at first, but by default you end up in sudo jail. That is all. I eagerly tried both Warty and Hoary, only to find that there was much more hype than substance. There really is only trivial difference between them and Debian, and most of the differences were offputting. I'll take the real deal over them any day.
Soo, lucky for you that you aren't required to do so in order to install the system. The net install works quite well, and is a small download.
Interesting. I did not realize this about Mepis. I will have to check it out.
"Stable - Server
Testing - Desktop
Unstable - Testing"
Brief mapping debian reality revisited:
You Said Plain BullShit!
Stable - All purpouse/all users; it is only Debian's "public" product (meant for non-debian development interested users)
Testing - For... well... testing integration
Unstable - For... well... first pass unstable integration"
What he said was perfectly acceptable. As far as yours, the "first pass unstable integration" generally does NOT happen in Unstable, it happens in Experimental, which usually doesn't get much talk other than by the hardcore Debianites.
For desktop use, Testing is, in general, MORE than stable enough (it's certainly more stable than Ubuntu).
I guess you don't read the dev mailing lists. From what I've seen so far (granted I haven't kept up with it for the last month or so) the version of xorg in ubuntu will have nothing whatsoever to do with the version that will be released in Debian as the developers for Debian didn't seem to like the way the Ubuntu developers brought it in. Therefore the work originally done in Ubuntu will have no bearing at all on Etch.
"they didn't get to where they are today by employing idiots."
No, they got to where they are today by using uncompettitive and sometimes downright illegal tactics. What.. you don't think these actions will eventually catch up to them? Do you not understand karma?
I am 40, and really have no interest WHATSOEVER in gangsters and zombies. Give me driving/racing games, rpg's and other sim-like things (Yes, I like the sims, and sim city type stuff.. Maxis rules), strategy games.. those are the kinds of things I'll buy. Oh, and Halo (course I guess Halo has some zombie element to it) :D. As far as Nintendo, I STILL don't have a Gamecube, been too busy with my XBox in what free time I do have, but I do want to get one, and the Revolution.. that seems like it's gonna be really cool, being able to download all the classic games.. yep, might be on my _to_buy_ list as well. I need to find out if the revolution will play Gamecube games also, not really looked into it too much (nor has Nintendo shoved much info about it down our throats). My Nintendo thoughts don't gravitate to Mario and Donkey Kong, they are more like, Ultima, Final Fantasy, Goldeneye.. SMB was fun, but my fave Mario game would be Super Mario Cart.
Just out of curiosity (I guess I'm not that innovative), how WOULD you use a car differently in a racing sim, other than by upgrading and racing it?
"I'm from the southern US, and anytime I hear the words "Hey ya'll watch this!" .. I run!"
;).
Ain't that the truth
"Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilization; And you accuse Americans of being self centered..."
I don't think there's anything self centered in the observation that Europe gave us civilization, Rome, Greece... America just doesn't have that kind of history.
Actually, 5% is the maximum fine. The $5M number is just being bantied around because it's close to that. If MS were to make more, the fine would increase to whatever monetary number equaled that percentage.
Your post sounds a bit naive. It's not ironic that MS have the most money, and an inferior product, that is the norm for a company in a monopolistic position. No competition, no reason to do anything better. Just keep the party line.
As far as the real moral of this story, I don't know where you got the idea that MS was trying to do anything good, because the only place you'll hear that is from them and their fanbois, the *only* motivation they have is the competition that has cropped up to threaten them. If that had not occurred, they'd be doing absolutely nothing more than they had for the last 10+ years. Lets just say, MS have definetly noticed Linux, and they are feeling quite threatened... mainly because they have no idea what to do about Linux, because it's not a company, and it can't be bought, or undersold into bankruptcy.
MS have had the market in stagnation for far too long. It's about time we saw some action in the arena. Topple the giant I say.
So, you get a bunch of cd's sent to you *that are yours to keep* for $5 a month? I didn't think so.
I care not to rent my music. No thank you. I'll buy (DRM free) cd's and continue to download other stuff (obsolete, can't find on cd's, encumbered by DRM otherwise, etc) from usenet. You'd think there was no alternative to the P2P networks. In my eyes, bittorent is good for distributing legit files, not so good for questionable activities as it was never intended to be used that way, and is easily tracked.
"I don't know anyone who would rather watch a show via bittorrent on their computer than watch it on the big screen TV, especially if it was recorded in by their DVR so they can skip commericals."
It's too bad that you're doing nothing but showing your own ignorance on the subject at hand. Personally I burn them onto a cd and throw it into the dvd player to watch it. Nobody that I know downloads shows to watch them on the pc.
"Ummm.... How would they connect to recieve the information in the first place? IRC? FTP? TelNet? HTTP sure seems to be out since they won't have a browser..."
Funny that, it's strange, innit, that when you install Linux, it can so automagically go out on the internet, download and install whatever browser you want to, without you having to use a browser? It's like magic, or sumthin. Guess MS think their customers are too dumb to look at a list that some app might generate giving them choices of browsers, choose one and hit the "do it" button. Judging by how many times I see the question "Well how are we expected to get a browser when we don't have a browser to go online and do that with?" (worded slightly differently here and there, but same idea), they may well be correct. Those users are under some impression that it's a chicken/egg kinda deal, when just the tiniest bit of logical thought would come up with a workable answer since back in the day we used to get disks and stuff, with browsers and whatnot on them from like, stores. I don't see how that could be too hard.
Debian is doing well regardless. Fast forward to the near future when Sarge is released stable. All the Ubunters that ditched Debian for newer packages will be back in droves, playing with the *truely* new stuff that will be in Etch and Sid, and alot the ones that tried Ubuntu as a "newb" distro will test the Debian waters when they're ready to remove the training wheels (or figure out that it's not quite as shiny a thing as most make it out to be).
Been there, done that, tested Ubuntu, dropped it like a hot rock. Not quite ready for mass consumption there, lotta hype, big stablity problems. Personally I don't want to trade stability for the latest eye-candy.
"Meh! I don't care much for children. They're unconsiderate, egoistic and rude, and for Pete's sake there's TOO MANY of them. As with everything there are exceptions, and they tend to get picked on in school because they can think independently."
Translation : I'm a teenager and I got picked on at school (and I make myself feel better by telling myself I'm "special") and I hate all the other kids.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but as a parent I can tell you that there is nothing better than your children. Once you gain a bit of maturity and wisdom maybe you will come to appreciate children, because, as cliche as this may sound, they are our future.
Someone that is providing the same service (only Linux based) as the guys that provided the Windows disk image maybe?
"Why use Microsoft if you have a broadband connection and combine Firefox with powerful web services like Google's Gmail?
Because if I just use firefox and gmail without an OS I won't get anywhere?"
Because maybe you can use firefox and gmail with a non-MS OS installed, which just might be easier to obtain if you have a broadband connetion?
"The reason other distros are "quicker" is simply that they don't apply such a strict testing process - and it shows."
Only too true.
"In that case, Debian must have the worst testers in the world. Seriously, has anyone found any applications that are broken by X.org? "
Not as yet, since xorg is not available for testing yet, but when it is, I'm sure they will, and people such as yourself should be grateful for that instead of critisizing them.
You need to chill, and see how this plays out instead of thinking you know exactly how everything is going to happen.