s/spammers/democracy. Welcome to China. This is the same thing as that horrid "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about comrade" mentality these days. Yes...we can pretty much all agree spammers are bad, that kiddie porn is wrong, that goatse shouldn't be allowed to exist, however, once you establish that it is ok to block these things at a high level without notice it just becomes a matter of determining what is 'offensive' enough to make the list. Well to China democracy is rather offensive. To the Bush crew pretty much everything that isn't in line with their fear the boogeyman crap is offensive. To the religious right wing evolution is offensive. To the left wing guns are offensive. We have already established that its ok to block things that some arbitrary group has decided 'would be better for everyone', now you just have to trust that that group will never decide certain things are offensive.
One day lecturing about the constitution could be considered insighting revolts and off ya go, all your information blocked from the world as you rot in a dark cell.
I was under the impression it applied to patents that were submitted with no real intent of doing anything with the technology, but rather waiting for someone else to develop it and then attacking (RIM vs NTP for example).
Well it could also force them to do something with them or admit they are nothing more than submarine patents. Not likely, but it would be interesting to see what happens with this.
I was going to submit a follow on to that a few years back. It involved reliable communications using pigeon checksums. Spray painting patterns on to the pigeons so you can verify the pigeons arrived in the correct order and thay you recieved them all.
I honestly hope you don't think that is a real RFC. I really really hope that this is just a misunderstood attempt at sarcasm. Just in case it's not. Please check the date on that RFC, and then search through all RFCs for that same date...you might get the joke. Or you may just be very angry about the CHIMP protocol...
I suspect rather than providing any evidence or explanation they will simply point out that it means you don't exist and that you don't need their nonexistant house and since the contract doesn't exist they are free to sell it to another person at full current market value with no repayment to you since you don't exist.
Why is the assumtion that time is linear and that the universe has even been created yet. We assume that time operates as we percieve it, but that is untrue of many things. We percieve a dropped ball as falling towards the top of our feet, however if dropped on the opposite side of earth it falls towards the bottom of our feet. So in both cases gravity is opperating the same way, but viewed from a differing perspective it SEEMS to operate differently until you step back and say the ball is not falling, that it is being pulled towards the center of the earth.
I would say blank driving records are not the same as pristine. Pristine sort of implies quality, so 12 years and 0 violations later I would call that pristine. Also "good" is generally of less quality than "pristine". Beyond that, 'prove that in court', easy enough just look at the statement she gave explaining the wreck on the report. Case closed.
You can pretty much "prove" anything with statistics. The statistics don't account for the human factors at all. I bet you have met at least one girl that cried her way out of a ticket. I bet you have known at least one person that got pulled over based on profiling and no real infraction. In fact I have known at least 3 women to get wreckless driving style tickets (20+mph over speed limit) cried down to a generic speeding ticket. I have known 0 men to get away with that.
Honestly, as much as I despise the insurance industry I think it is about time for them to step up on this. Get in a wreck of any kind and it comes out you were texting/cellphone/whatever just enforce a massive rate hike. My sister t-boned another car because she was reaching for her phone on the passenger side floor. Yet as an under 25 male (at the time) with a muscle car and a pristine driving record I get to pay more? People frequently only care about things when it hurts their pocket book. Make it financially insane to do this crap while driving and you will fix the problem alot faster.
I would really like to see something like this more than another pile full of ineffective loophole filled legislation wasting my tax dollars to combat this crap. If they must do this with legislation I would really like to see something with a little more bite to it than a quick fine and its over. 1st offense 1 week license suspension, 2nd offense 1 month, 3rd offense 1 year. Any person that suffers through 1 week or 1 month of no driving should feel the pain enough to not risk 1 year.
I don't care what it has on it. Preinstalled linux means that the hardware works. It means that I know regardless of distro, the kernel will make all my crap work without wanting to kill myself. I won't be fighting stupid driver issues, nonstandard hardware, etc. If you can order it with Preinstalled linux, it means your hardware is going to work with relative ease in linux.
law enforcement will have to get a warrent for it....
You have been reading the news right? When dealing with the Patriot Act and the whole terrorism bit...warrents are not exactly required or enforced. Our new laws work great together, Patriot Act makes damn near everything an act of terrorism (see meth dealers being busted on terrorism laws) and then our wonderful government has allowed 90 days of unlimited warrentless wiretapping after a terrorist event. Combine these two to have 24/7/365 warrentless wiretaps because they can call damned near anything an act of terrorism. If they are arresting guys for taking stupid pictures of themselves in ski masks under anti terrorism laws... Well... Let's just say I'd feel sorry for the poor bastard who is the first one to get busted flying one of these things.
That it does. I have wondered that myself. I suspect its more of an issue of tracking than it is anything else. I imagine this problem is amplified when you ship all of your stuff overseas to have it built in multiple places. The cost of building a system to actually track through the entire process to make sure you aren't duplicating addresses would hurt the bottom line. Easier to just take the gamble that noone will have the problem often. The real bitch is that because the problem does exist but so rarely, it is VERY hard to diagnose. Broken cables are easy...common...you think of 'check the cable' frequently. You never really stop and consider strange behavior by a computer on your enterprise to be 'check for a duplicate MAC on the network'.
You are correct. Not to nitpick too much but the mac is captured and related to a specific switch port the second it transmits. Now whether the NOC/NOSC is watching or logging is different. But so long as you catch it in the window before the switch starts clearing its tables you can trace across the entire switched network down to a single port.
The department of Homeland Security has been notified. Ownership of Lego's have officially been declared a crime to be prosecuted by the Patriot Act. This support of terrorist activities will not go unchallenged! Only the Feds are allowed to spy on the populace, the populace is not allowed to own these types of things.
In all seriousness now, how long do you think it will be before someone gets arrested for doing something like this. I just listened to the story about crazyskimask.com and getting arrested for just wearing a skimask and taking pictures. Welcome to our new feardom:(
Thus its far safer to not use DHCP on an unknown network.:) Listen to the traffic, find the address range, statically assign. Typically ARP tables clear themselves after around 10 minutes or so(of coarse this depends greatly on your settings and your particular hardware/software). Most of my MAC hunting has involved Cisco gear and not just finding DHCP logs, but tracking down the offending MAC to the cubicle it sits in.
If you are clever you proxy with SSL:). The only thing people inbetween will see is encrypted traffic. Either way its still not a terribly efficient way to hide your identity. You are still correct in that they will still know that you are doing it, just not specifically what you are doing with it.
Tell that to 3COM. I have stumbled across 2 3COM NICs with identical MACs. Granted it happens terribly infrequently, and you will almost certainly never see it on anything but fairly large networks (and poorly designed at that). Most networks are subnetted down to the point that the odds of it ever happening are virtually nil. The one time I ran into it was on a VERY large flat network that used only 3COM cards (to the point of ripping out the NIC that came with the machine to put a 3COM in it).
Because that 48bit address space is so large the odds of you ever running into 2 identical MACs in a given network is terribly small, but rememeber how MACs are formed XX:XX:XX:YY:YY:YY with XX:XX:XX being the identifier of the manufacturer. So when you limit an entire network to the same mfg you only have YY:YY:YY to be unique. Now granted...they say they are unique...and the standard says they are globally unique...but lets talk about corporations adhering to standards when the odds of them being noticed are virtually nil (or hell, even when it is blatant violations in some offenders cases):)
Only when you and the investigator are both active on the network at the same time in which case changing your MAC really makes no real difference. As I mentioned, the MAC goes away within minutes on the network, its not transmitted past the first hop router, and its not unique beyond the 1st hop router. Given that that end of forensics is part of my job I am pretty sure I know how it works. I don't care what your friends tell you, the cops, feds, and investigators are not using MAC addresses as 'fingerprints' of hardware. It just simply cannot be used like that with even a shred of reliability. The only place your MAC address even is used in ANY part of the connection is between your computer and your default gateway with any switches (not hubs) in between keeping that record for a few minutes.
MAC changing doesn't mean anything except for avoiding the owner of the wireless network. The MAC never makes it farther than the first hop router (which in this case would be the owner of the wireless network not the ISP). If MACs were unique network cards would cost a far sight more and the internet would be considerably smaller.
Please read about the concepts of routing and switching. MAC is not like a fingerprint in any way shape or form. Your analogy doesn't even begin to make sense based on how MACs are used. Aside from not being unique and being easily manipulated any trace of a MAC address only exists in the local subnet before it hits the first router and vanishes minutes after the last packet was sent.
Your other replyer "Lumpy" doesn't know what he is talking about.
1. You are correct, the MAC address doesn't get any farther than the first router. That is how routers operate, by swapping the mac address in the packet with their own and the next hop while leaving the network address the same so it can be 'routed' there.
2. If you own the whole network you can eventually trace a mac back to an originating port on a switch, but that involves owning quite a bit of gear, and its not like its a logged thing, switches eventually allow mac entries to expire or things would break if you moved ports on the switch.
3. In the instance of home networking you are behind a router before you even get to your ISPs router, they never see your mac (unless you are directly connected to the modem, but we are talking leeching wireless).
4. MAC address ARE NOT UNIQUE! They are nearly unique, but if you operate under the idea that mac addresses are unique then your life will be hell when you have to track down a duplicate MAC on a large enterprise network because you believe it cannot happen. It does, although infrequently, and it makes networking very very 'interesting' when it happens.
The best they can do is rush down and grab that wireless access points within a few minutes of the last packet you sent and try and get the MAC before it gets flushed. Then they would have to go after the manufacturer to try and associate that MAC to YOU purchasing it. Now given that the manufacturer has likely made more than one device with that same MAC under the correct assumption they will likely never exist on the same network, and also that a MAC is not a hard thing to spoof, that information is completely worthless. Saying they can track you down based on your MAC is like saying I can identify an individual based on him using 192.168.100.15. Ultimately the best they can really do is determine that the traffic came from the IP the ISP assigned, and there is no real way to verify with any accuracy the traffic came from any specific hardware.
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I have seen this at least once if not more already. Posted almost verbatim. Always by AC and it shows up in these RIAA related threads.
Heh, I just patched my kernel for the 13.0.0.0.0 roll over. All you suckers are gunna be screwed!
s/spammers/democracy. Welcome to China. This is the same thing as that horrid "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about comrade" mentality these days. Yes...we can pretty much all agree spammers are bad, that kiddie porn is wrong, that goatse shouldn't be allowed to exist, however, once you establish that it is ok to block these things at a high level without notice it just becomes a matter of determining what is 'offensive' enough to make the list. Well to China democracy is rather offensive. To the Bush crew pretty much everything that isn't in line with their fear the boogeyman crap is offensive. To the religious right wing evolution is offensive. To the left wing guns are offensive. We have already established that its ok to block things that some arbitrary group has decided 'would be better for everyone', now you just have to trust that that group will never decide certain things are offensive.
One day lecturing about the constitution could be considered insighting revolts and off ya go, all your information blocked from the world as you rot in a dark cell.
You must be new here. Can you restate that analogy in reference to a car? Thank you.
I was under the impression it applied to patents that were submitted with no real intent of doing anything with the technology, but rather waiting for someone else to develop it and then attacking (RIM vs NTP for example).
Well it could also force them to do something with them or admit they are nothing more than submarine patents. Not likely, but it would be interesting to see what happens with this.
Well damnit... Back to the drawing board.
I was going to submit a follow on to that a few years back. It involved reliable communications using pigeon checksums. Spray painting patterns on to the pigeons so you can verify the pigeons arrived in the correct order and thay you recieved them all.
I honestly hope you don't think that is a real RFC. I really really hope that this is just a misunderstood attempt at sarcasm. Just in case it's not. Please check the date on that RFC, and then search through all RFCs for that same date...you might get the joke. Or you may just be very angry about the CHIMP protocol...
I suspect rather than providing any evidence or explanation they will simply point out that it means you don't exist and that you don't need their nonexistant house and since the contract doesn't exist they are free to sell it to another person at full current market value with no repayment to you since you don't exist.
I have even bolder:
Why is the assumtion that time is linear and that the universe has even been created yet. We assume that time operates as we percieve it, but that is untrue of many things. We percieve a dropped ball as falling towards the top of our feet, however if dropped on the opposite side of earth it falls towards the bottom of our feet. So in both cases gravity is opperating the same way, but viewed from a differing perspective it SEEMS to operate differently until you step back and say the ball is not falling, that it is being pulled towards the center of the earth.
I would say blank driving records are not the same as pristine. Pristine sort of implies quality, so 12 years and 0 violations later I would call that pristine. Also "good" is generally of less quality than "pristine". Beyond that, 'prove that in court', easy enough just look at the statement she gave explaining the wreck on the report. Case closed.
You can pretty much "prove" anything with statistics. The statistics don't account for the human factors at all. I bet you have met at least one girl that cried her way out of a ticket. I bet you have known at least one person that got pulled over based on profiling and no real infraction. In fact I have known at least 3 women to get wreckless driving style tickets (20+mph over speed limit) cried down to a generic speeding ticket. I have known 0 men to get away with that.
Honestly, as much as I despise the insurance industry I think it is about time for them to step up on this. Get in a wreck of any kind and it comes out you were texting/cellphone/whatever just enforce a massive rate hike. My sister t-boned another car because she was reaching for her phone on the passenger side floor. Yet as an under 25 male (at the time) with a muscle car and a pristine driving record I get to pay more? People frequently only care about things when it hurts their pocket book. Make it financially insane to do this crap while driving and you will fix the problem alot faster.
I would really like to see something like this more than another pile full of ineffective loophole filled legislation wasting my tax dollars to combat this crap. If they must do this with legislation I would really like to see something with a little more bite to it than a quick fine and its over. 1st offense 1 week license suspension, 2nd offense 1 month, 3rd offense 1 year. Any person that suffers through 1 week or 1 month of no driving should feel the pain enough to not risk 1 year.
I don't care what it has on it. Preinstalled linux means that the hardware works. It means that I know regardless of distro, the kernel will make all my crap work without wanting to kill myself. I won't be fighting stupid driver issues, nonstandard hardware, etc. If you can order it with Preinstalled linux, it means your hardware is going to work with relative ease in linux.
law enforcement will have to get a warrent for it....
You have been reading the news right? When dealing with the Patriot Act and the whole terrorism bit...warrents are not exactly required or enforced. Our new laws work great together, Patriot Act makes damn near everything an act of terrorism (see meth dealers being busted on terrorism laws) and then our wonderful government has allowed 90 days of unlimited warrentless wiretapping after a terrorist event. Combine these two to have 24/7/365 warrentless wiretaps because they can call damned near anything an act of terrorism. If they are arresting guys for taking stupid pictures of themselves in ski masks under anti terrorism laws... Well... Let's just say I'd feel sorry for the poor bastard who is the first one to get busted flying one of these things.
That it does. I have wondered that myself. I suspect its more of an issue of tracking than it is anything else. I imagine this problem is amplified when you ship all of your stuff overseas to have it built in multiple places. The cost of building a system to actually track through the entire process to make sure you aren't duplicating addresses would hurt the bottom line. Easier to just take the gamble that noone will have the problem often. The real bitch is that because the problem does exist but so rarely, it is VERY hard to diagnose. Broken cables are easy...common...you think of 'check the cable' frequently. You never really stop and consider strange behavior by a computer on your enterprise to be 'check for a duplicate MAC on the network'.
You are correct. Not to nitpick too much but the mac is captured and related to a specific switch port the second it transmits. Now whether the NOC/NOSC is watching or logging is different. But so long as you catch it in the window before the switch starts clearing its tables you can trace across the entire switched network down to a single port.
The department of Homeland Security has been notified. Ownership of Lego's have officially been declared a crime to be prosecuted by the Patriot Act. This support of terrorist activities will not go unchallenged! Only the Feds are allowed to spy on the populace, the populace is not allowed to own these types of things.
:(
In all seriousness now, how long do you think it will be before someone gets arrested for doing something like this. I just listened to the story about crazyskimask.com and getting arrested for just wearing a skimask and taking pictures. Welcome to our new feardom
Thus its far safer to not use DHCP on an unknown network. :) Listen to the traffic, find the address range, statically assign. Typically ARP tables clear themselves after around 10 minutes or so(of coarse this depends greatly on your settings and your particular hardware/software). Most of my MAC hunting has involved Cisco gear and not just finding DHCP logs, but tracking down the offending MAC to the cubicle it sits in.
If you are clever you proxy with SSL :). The only thing people inbetween will see is encrypted traffic. Either way its still not a terribly efficient way to hide your identity. You are still correct in that they will still know that you are doing it, just not specifically what you are doing with it.
Tell that to 3COM. I have stumbled across 2 3COM NICs with identical MACs. Granted it happens terribly infrequently, and you will almost certainly never see it on anything but fairly large networks (and poorly designed at that). Most networks are subnetted down to the point that the odds of it ever happening are virtually nil. The one time I ran into it was on a VERY large flat network that used only 3COM cards (to the point of ripping out the NIC that came with the machine to put a 3COM in it).
:)
Because that 48bit address space is so large the odds of you ever running into 2 identical MACs in a given network is terribly small, but rememeber how MACs are formed XX:XX:XX:YY:YY:YY with XX:XX:XX being the identifier of the manufacturer. So when you limit an entire network to the same mfg you only have YY:YY:YY to be unique. Now granted...they say they are unique...and the standard says they are globally unique...but lets talk about corporations adhering to standards when the odds of them being noticed are virtually nil (or hell, even when it is blatant violations in some offenders cases)
Only when you and the investigator are both active on the network at the same time in which case changing your MAC really makes no real difference. As I mentioned, the MAC goes away within minutes on the network, its not transmitted past the first hop router, and its not unique beyond the 1st hop router. Given that that end of forensics is part of my job I am pretty sure I know how it works. I don't care what your friends tell you, the cops, feds, and investigators are not using MAC addresses as 'fingerprints' of hardware. It just simply cannot be used like that with even a shred of reliability. The only place your MAC address even is used in ANY part of the connection is between your computer and your default gateway with any switches (not hubs) in between keeping that record for a few minutes.
MAC changing doesn't mean anything except for avoiding the owner of the wireless network. The MAC never makes it farther than the first hop router (which in this case would be the owner of the wireless network not the ISP). If MACs were unique network cards would cost a far sight more and the internet would be considerably smaller.
Please read about the concepts of routing and switching. MAC is not like a fingerprint in any way shape or form. Your analogy doesn't even begin to make sense based on how MACs are used. Aside from not being unique and being easily manipulated any trace of a MAC address only exists in the local subnet before it hits the first router and vanishes minutes after the last packet was sent.
Your other replyer "Lumpy" doesn't know what he is talking about.
1. You are correct, the MAC address doesn't get any farther than the first router. That is how routers operate, by swapping the mac address in the packet with their own and the next hop while leaving the network address the same so it can be 'routed' there.
2. If you own the whole network you can eventually trace a mac back to an originating port on a switch, but that involves owning quite a bit of gear, and its not like its a logged thing, switches eventually allow mac entries to expire or things would break if you moved ports on the switch.
3. In the instance of home networking you are behind a router before you even get to your ISPs router, they never see your mac (unless you are directly connected to the modem, but we are talking leeching wireless).
4. MAC address ARE NOT UNIQUE! They are nearly unique, but if you operate under the idea that mac addresses are unique then your life will be hell when you have to track down a duplicate MAC on a large enterprise network because you believe it cannot happen. It does, although infrequently, and it makes networking very very 'interesting' when it happens.
The best they can do is rush down and grab that wireless access points within a few minutes of the last packet you sent and try and get the MAC before it gets flushed. Then they would have to go after the manufacturer to try and associate that MAC to YOU purchasing it. Now given that the manufacturer has likely made more than one device with that same MAC under the correct assumption they will likely never exist on the same network, and also that a MAC is not a hard thing to spoof, that information is completely worthless. Saying they can track you down based on your MAC is like saying I can identify an individual based on him using 192.168.100.15. Ultimately the best they can really do is determine that the traffic came from the IP the ISP assigned, and there is no real way to verify with any accuracy the traffic came from any specific hardware.