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RIAA Caught in Tough Legal Situation
JeffreysTube writes "The RIAA's legal fight against a divorced mother has run into trouble, with the judge now telling the RIAA that its only two options are to proceed with a jury trial against Patty Santangelo or dismiss the case with prejudice. If the latter happens, Santangelo officially "wins" and could collect attorneys' fees. The judge is less than pleased with the RIAA, which is now trying to drop the case without giving Santangelo a chance to be declared guilty. 'This case is two years old,' wrote Judge McMahon. 'There has been extensive fact discovery. After taking this discovery, either plaintiffs want to make their case that Mrs. Santangelo is guilty of contributory copyright infringement or they do not.'"
JeffreysTube wrote" "The judge is less than pleased with the RIAA, which is now trying to drop the case without giving Santangelo a chance to be declared guilty."
Somehow, I don't think Mrs. Santangelo is in this to be declared guilty. But hey, I'm just a dazed onlooker - what would I know about the law.
Somehow I think the judge is upset that the defendant may not have the chance to be declared innocent - that is, that the RIAA appear to be trying to walk away from making a baseless claim without the defendant having the opportunity to have his name cleared officially.
Were that to happen, I wonder if there would be any scope in pursuing a claim for defamation? (No, I don't think I would in that position, but it would almost certainly cross my mind...)
It's official. Most of you are morons.
People flocked to my store, knowing that they (and their children) could safely purchase records without profanity or violent lyrics
...I grabbed the little shit by his shirt...
...take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store...
Wow. Now I see why the CDs don't contain profanity or violent lyrics. There's plenty right there in the store.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Yeah, be afraid of the RIAA, they must have some secret CIA shit that allows them to know exactly what person was sitting at the computer based upon an IP address.
I can't believe someone posted this AGAIN. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/2/103735/275
If more MAFIAA cases made it to court, there'd be more justice. Judges and juries are better than lawyers. I mean morally better, which isn't saying much I know.
shin phantomflanflinger
hehe, can't resist proving them wrong...!
Personally I could care less if you got pirates black listed but don't expect your sales to start jumping through the roof. Most people I know buy far fewer CDs then they did before because most of them buy online and many of us are sick to death of hearing the mainstream stuff via radio saturation. I know of some who have admitted to owning several pirate CDs but like me they only got a copy to see if they liked it. Like me they try to purchase the music if they can but often we can't, why? Because the stuff we are downloading isn't mainstream and sold in the CD shops plus when it might be 11:30pm when I am browsing, why wait until tomorrow if I can buy right now online and have it ready to go on my MP3 player for the trip into work? That and there are artificial restrictions on many online stores preventing us from buying music, especially foreign music.
My daughter downloaded some Ethiopian and Russian music and loved it, can we buy it? Not legally. I personally do not buy CDs at all anymore, I buy MP3s from indie bands, preferably directly because I want my money to go to the artist, not some middleman.
Steven.
You know, I don't think it's a catch-22 if you jump into the water, insult everyone in earshot, and piss them off so that they all hate you. I think that's called painting yourself in a corner.
So who's gonna extend a helping hand and get the RIAA out of the corner? I guess it's time for another metaphor. The metaphor of the drowning man.
fifth sigma, inc.
So that's my idea - a national blacklist of pirates. If somebody cannot obey the basic rules of society, then they should be excluded from society. If pirates want to steal from the music industry, then the music industry should exclude them. It's that simple. One strike, and you're out - no reputable record store will allow you to buy another CD. If the pirates can't buy the CDS to begin with, then they won't be able to copy them over The Internet, will they? It's no different to doctors blacklisting drug dealers from buying prescription medicine.
I understand your grief, but "it's that simple" is a dead give away that your solution is kinda too easy to work.
And if you read what you wrote couple of times, you may realize the irony of the situation. You refused to sell a CD to a buying customer. Sure, he was going to put the CD on the Internet, and that sucks. But he was there to buy that CD.
In the end, before your intervention you had 1 CD sold, after your intervention you had 0 CD sold. Where do you believe this "punk" will get this album from now? Either another store, or the Internet. You lose, either way.
It takes *one* to copy his CD to the Internet for the entire world to have. You have to simply accept that blacklisting people that talk about copying CD-s *in the store* is a wildly inaccurate way to blacklist all pirates.
Even if you "decide to play safe" and blacklist every single person in US (assuming you're in US), someone will buy this CD in another country and upload it, and adapt your business to this, and you'll be out of customers since you blacklisted them all. It's a lose-lose situation.
Violence against the customers just causes lost customers and bad word spreading about your shop. You can be sure this guy told all his friends about this event, and they told their friends. You'll likely not see then buying from you any more.
Hehe. Thank you, that's the funniest thing I've read in a while.
Create an unenforcable, uncreatable blacklist of pirates. Dude, you should be on letterman.
110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
would case-law still be deemed to have been made? The only reason for dropping cases that aren't going favourably could be to avoid case-law being made.
Also, if merely providing internet access facilities to others makes one guilty of the uses / activities done on that IP, then many IT firms have reasons to be seriously worried. Malware and Service Packs are downloaded over the same IP and the same protocols. It will be almost impossible to operate any net-enabled firm at all.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Problem is that the RIAA doesn't have any incentive to stop the lawsuits, as long as they are able to intimidate the majority of their targets into settling. They just happened to pick a determined person (with resources) in this case.
They don't realize that the enemy is not file sharing or people getting their content for free. The real enemy is people buying only the tracks they want, and so lowering the average value of a purchase. The great thing about an LP/CD from a company point of view is that it was a bundle at a high price. This is a key difference between movie downloads and music downloads.
It is very hard to see how they get around this one. Prosecuting people will not take care of the move to singles. They probably cannot raise the price of the singles. It is hard to see how they ever reinstate the album purchase to where it was.
Yes, its tough. And they are not helping themselves by focussing on a completely different problem from the real one.
So... Your clients are going to hear you've been assaulting customers?
Nice one. Way to fuck your own "self made from the ground up business" right up in the ass!
So what if people are putting the crap you sell on the net, all you heard is hearsay in the store. If I was one of those kids, I'd be dragging you through both the papers and the courts, then see how you like the plummet into bankrupcy rather than just a gentle slide.
The only thing more fun than vigilante justice, is watching the person who led the posse be hanged in the town square.
Wow! Your record store's been dying for the past 4 years!
Don't mod this guy down! It's just what he wants. If I had an account, and any kind of cred (karma points, social pull), I would make sure this post got (5, Funny) next to it. It's obviously a joke!
Witness:
"They have fought the War on Drugs with skill, so why not the War on Piracy?"
"I just shook my head, and tried to hold back the tears. 'I don't know, Jenny. I don't know.'"
And just take the time to read the final paragraph, for cryin' out loud! I've seen some pretty terrible attempts at sarcasm online (digg), but to see a truly clever showing get misconstrued is simply tragic.
Surely this fits the bill of Vexatious litigation? The fact that they have done this kind of thing over and over. Should they really not be taken down over this? Are there no US regulatory legal authorities that look out for people's interests?
I think they DO believe that individual track sales hurts them, and it's public knowledge that they've been trying to convince Apple to let them sell popular singles for more than 99¢ for a while now, but Apple has not been budging because they think that would turn people off of iTunes altogether.
I dont think Christians can really Rock.
Thats like saying Catholics have good sex.
Well, Madonna was raised Catholic, and baptised her children in a catholic church. I don't know if she's been offical excommunicated from the church like Sinéad O'Connor, but if she has not she's likely still a Catholic. I can't say for a fact that she has good sex, but she does have alot of it and has published a couple of books on the subject of her sex life. I am not a fan of Madonna... and in fact use her as an example of how unhealthy attitudes imposed by the Cathlic church really are. It would seem that people, men and women alike, who were raised full blown Catholics from my observation tend to end up either prudish or hyper-sexual. While I would have serious reservations having a serious relationship with someone raised Catholic, I can say I have had great sex with Catholics.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Sorry to say this, but your business model is now outmoded. This is why you are not selling CDs any more. In the same way that horse and cart sellers are few and far between, and email has come to dominate written communications no one is as interested in buying physical copies of their music. You need to diversify and evolve your business, not assault spotty teenagers.
FYI: YHBT. HTH. HAND :)
Wait, this is Slashdot, how did you forget about the catholic schoolgirls? I thought they were like the #1 geek fantasy.
Deja vu. Anyone?
Well, sounds like you're a pillock then! Assaulting underage customers? and you wonder why your store is losing money? The real reason isn't piracy it's more likely to be bad management! Oh and for information, I buy the occasional Cd, but most stuff I buy online legally. However, I don't buy as much as I used to because most of the new stuff is complete CRAP! Maybe if the record companies actually produced good quality music instead of the massed produced twaddle they do at the moment, they'd sell more! poor poor millionaires cant afford their next humvie!
Alert: The parent is a cut and paste post. This usually indicates a troll.
Other instances of this post are here and here.
.., the image just needs a little red and black and some old celtic symbols to complete.
I think your record store, as hard as it may sound, is simply OBSOLETE. The people that flock to your store to buy christian family music are most certainly NOT the people pirating cd's, and if they do, they go to hell for it, so no worries.
The digital age is busy inventing new virtual worlds, mapping genomes, mapping memory, building bio robots. Everything that is in between that human wish for eternity and today will be obsolete, and the industry that makes most of it's profit from being "in the way" is the RIAA controlled record industry. The right to own or listen to music is not owned by a corporation, it is a human capacity, and it will evolve. I would seriously consider another way of making a living if I were you.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
I mean, we've ALL heard stories, haven't we.
A lot of sexual tension when finally released!
Woo hooo!
Maybe you should consider to change the target to which you're catering... It seems to me that almost nobody wants the crap you sell...
Allmost all the CD's I buy nowadays I buy online because I can't find them in the regular stores. And most of the stuff they release these days I won't even consider buying. It's all the same commercial crap...
...... We fought the war on drugs with skill? Anyway... Look, the CD is dead. It seems to me that as a business owner, you should realize that the CD is a dying thing and adjust your business accordingly. Frankly, you seem no better than the media companies, complaining instead of adjusting to the market. Yes, stealing music is illegal. Yes it's wrong. If people want free music, they should pick up an instrument and make their own... Still this doesn't change the way the world works. Adjust or die. Them's the rules. So, ARE you doing the best for your family and your business? It doesn't seem so. Seems that you're out of touch with your customers. That's not good whatever business you're in. Err... Someone thought uploading christian music would be Leet? Uh..... Riiiiight. Snicker. -T p.s. I really hope that entire post was satire.
If only all cases could be settled this way!
Look for the new adverts ... "No win, no knee"!
LOVE IT!
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
FYI: YHBT. HTH. HAND :)
BBQ?
This is a very old Troll. It gets all the feeding it needs.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
I concur!
As a famous musician, I share your pain. But why bother with a blacklist? We just get rid of the problem by making their computers explode.
Your senator,
Orrin G. Hatch
BYO.
--- the lameness filter is deadly accurate --
Damn I already moded this discussion, but I feel I need to post....
... Google if you dont know what I mean). Almost always the album is similar in quality to the single and often I hear songs I love that just would get airplay EVER.
I prefer to download whole albums, either legally or through dubious means (*cough* allofmp3 *cough*). I think it gives a better indication of the artist and the art they perform.
I hear a song I like via a friend or the radio (I'm on Oz so we have tripleJ/classicFm/Digg
I would happily pay for all my music album downloads if I could choose my bit rate, the files were DRM free and the price was reasonable lower than the cost of a CD (*cough* allofmp3 *cough*).
Maybe the moderation system should support scoring for Effort. I did crack a smile reading this. I also cracked a smile when I realized at least some people are taking it seriously :) People are funny.
What did you do before you sold records, run a buggy-whip factory?
I'm sorry that things aren't going well for you in record business, but should the rest of the world put progress on hold so you can refuse to change with the times?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Love the sig, but now I have to clean up the coffee.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Depends on your taste really. If metal is your thing, check out Tourniquet.
I'm an atheist, and don't really listen to that much metal, but these guys did some pretty cool stuff in their day. I haven't listened to any of their newer stuff, so I can't really say anything about that.
I'm also sure there's a pretty good pun about stoning in there somewhere, but word fail me.
How about the fact that the President of Clear Channel radio said yesterday that pretty much the music (radio) industry is on it's way out? How about the fact that the "Hip Hop" rap era is finally over with? How about that 90% of the music released commercially today is CRAP? Really, in ten years are there still going to be cd's sold in shops? Will optical storage in 10 years look as funny as reel to reel? The music industry is scared because their reign of terror is finally over. The movie industry won't be affected as much, even though digital distribution of films is going to finally release that stranglehold that the studios currently have. The movie studios will survive because of their ability to make the big budget films nobody else can. Also 3-D movies will become more of the norm. CD's came out in 1981, 1981!! CD's came out a year before MS. PAC-MAN. The music studios are long overdue for a technology shift.
"Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide
INAL but really I regard this as a ruling against RIAA's bullying tactics.
It appears to me they are trying to draw out the costs of the case through two years of pre-trial discovery. The idea appears to be simply to bankrupt the defense and/or intimidate potential future defendants (i.e. the public) by showing that they don't have to go to trial in order to financially ruin their victim. Seems to occur commonly enough whenever one party in a case has especially deep pockets and the other doesn't.
What the judge is saying is, the RIAA can't just run up a huge legal bill and walk away. Score one for the little guy.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Hehe... you would be much better off if you'd kept the original demographic... the people who buy CDs to say they own them even if they don't listen to them :) And start selling that old vinyl, a section of good hip-hop releases, strange electronica and one for metal should do the job... Nowadays every kid got turntables and everyone and their mom is a DJ ;)
> My store specialised in family music - stuff that the whole family could listen to. I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of. ...
> When they came to the counter to make their purchase, I grabbed the little shit by his shirt. "So...you're going to copy this to your friends over The Internet, punk?" I asked him in my best Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry voice.
How very christian of you.
I haven't paid for recorded music in a long time, and will not do so again until things change for the better. ... when that happens I'll be happy to go back to the pre-net ways of using available cash to fill my closet or HD with music, and shopping in bricks-or-no-bricks stores for music.
I eagerly await the day when
1) DRM-free files or CDs cost less than DVD movies (around $5 US would be just fine for an album)
2) The mafiaa isn't insulting/threatening/suing us.
I'll note that the book store just across from my store is doing great business. Unlike CDs, it's harder to copy books over The Internet.
ya, but that's because any dolt can walk to a library and check out a book FOR FREE. So why hasn't the availability of free books from public and college libraries not destroyed the bookstore business? I'd like to maybe venture to guess that you're not selling CD's to the people who are buying CD's.
Also, you can get books for way way cheaper than at a bookstore from places like half (you can get books in almost new condition for a couple bucks) or amazon... and yet with the availability of much cheaper books where you can buy them online and not even have to leave the house, the bookstore across the street is still doing great business. why?
if you happen to be in the san francisco area, walk into any of the record stores by UC Berkeley... notice how you have to sometimes wait in line to get in?
any business major or MBA worth his salt will tell you that a 12 year old business model isn't going to work forever, and you do realize that the 6 yr old kids of these families who used to come to your store + 12 years = 18 years old, right?
"Yeah, dude, that's really lete [sic], you'll get lots of respect."
you can [sic] something stated?
They have fought the War on Drugs with skill, so why not the War on Piracy?
right, that's why this world has been eradicated completely of all illegal drugs! If we use the War on Drugs as a shining example and metric, then you're in for a huge surprise with the War on Piracy.
haha... i can imagine it now... the colombian mp3 cartel... where do i sign?
This evening, my daughters asked me. "Why do the other kids laugh at us?"
you should teach your kids instead not to care about what other people think and that clothes don't make the man (or woman)...
I wanted to tell them the truth - it's because they wear old clothes and have cheap haircuts. I can't afford anything better for them right now.
hey, at least they have clothes and professionally cut hair. do you really think prada purses and day spa salon haircuts will make it better? your kid will just be teased about being stuck up or "the rich kid"
When the kids went to bed, my wife asked me, "Will we be able to keep the house, David?" I just shook my head, and tried to hold back the tears. "I don't know, Jenny. I don't know."
if you were any sort of business man, and used sound financial logic and sound financial planning instead of parroting what cnn money tells you, then you probably won't be in this mess.
I am inspired by artists such as Metallica that have taken a stand against the powerful pirate lobby.
what pirate lobby? can you name them so i can send them nasty letters? i hate pirates too...
and last point... I am inspired by artists such as Metallica may be seen to contradict with I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of.
ya! down with that satan music! but i like how they fight piracy... so... piracy >>>>> satan, so go metallica!
IANAL, but anytime a corporation sues an individual, and is wrong,
the corporation should pay double or triple the fees back to the individual.
With the Individual actually getting the money.
A woman stands alone against a team of lawyers.
Suffers two years of this legal mumbo-jumbo.
And then RIAA wants to just walk away from it?
No.
Make 'em pay!
Ok. Since this is an RIAA urban legend propaganda piece, I'll put this forward :
... you're polluting the gene pool.
99.9999999% chance propaganda : Sad. Go back to your masters, you grovelling RIAA facists.
0.0000001% chance truth : Well, now you can put that Maters degree in Renaissance Art to work for you, finally, you bearded, tree-hugging twit. And stop breeding
The defendant also has lawyers.
I honestly don't know if to take your post seriously or not due to your comments that indicate things like the war on drugs is "successful" (it's not and you are living in la la land if you think it is) but I will give you the benefit of doubt
lets take this point by point
"It was one of those boutique record stores that sell obscure, independent releases that no-one listens to, not even the people that buy them. I decided that to grow the business I'd need to aim for a different demographic, the family market"
Leaving the obscure/rare/independent releases might or might not have been the right idea, really depends on location you are. In the long term though these are the kind of music stores that will last the longest, when all the major music stores are long gone (and they will go within the next 15/20 odd years unless something major happens) these "collectors shops" will still be around. Will they ever make the major money, nope but they will outlast the "digital revolution" for the same reason that some LP stores are around
"CD sales have dropped through the floor. People aren't buying half as many CDs as they did just a year ago....... But there is one, inescapable truth - Internet piracy is mostly to blame......."
Internet piracy has been around for years, it has not had any kind of major boom over the last year or two but remained pretty steady. What has increased dramatically in that period is the take up of MP3 players and legal download sites like itunes. These is the number one reason for your recent falling sales. And got bad news for you, there is nothing you can do about it, it is the way the world is going. LP's got pushed out by tapes, tapes by CD's and now CD's will be replaced by digital downloads
"I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of."
While I can admire your principals and that you have tried sticking to them, please don't try to blame the world because you shot yourself in the foot. You decided to limit your market no one else
"A week ago, an unpleasant experience with pirates gave me an idea. In my store, I overheard a teenage patron talking to his friend.
"Dude, I'm going to put this CD on the Internet right away."
"Yeah, dude, that's really lete [sic], you'll get lots of respect.""
Sorry but I burst out laughing at this little scenario, not just because I generally find kids who talk like this so stupid thats it funny but because it is supposedly happening in a store that does "not sell sick stuff and that has one of the most extensive Christian rock sections around"
Maybe you should have told told them they would get no "respect" for posting this kind of music?
As to your ideas to deal with the situation, I am sorry but they so are laughable that they lead me to believe that you need psychiatric help
"When my girls ask me questions like that, I feel like my heart is being wrenched out of my chest. But knowing that I'm doing the best I can to save my family and my business is some consolation."
You are not doing your best, you picked a dieing market (the writing was on the wall for CD's 12 years ago for those who cared to look), you then decided to limit your customer base even further and now instead of trying to re-expand your customer base,try new ideas and adapt to the market you just want to cry and set up blacklists.
No wonder you support the RIAA, you have the same short-sighted and blinkered mentality as them
Last I heard, she's "following" Kabbalah. And no, that doesn't make her Jewish, so don't take it out on us. I've had a rabbi that described Kabbalah as a whole lot of really strange stuff that even she could barely make sense of.
Yup, seen it here a few times. Why think when you can cut & paste, huh?
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Actually, I'm fairly sure it's 99.9999999% satire... Referring to the "skilled" war on drugs? Assault and Battery on underage customers? It's exaggerated in all the right places.
You see, if lawyers starting realising that it is possible to get fees from RIAA lawsuits they are more likely to accept defending the normal people without asking for payment (what is the term for that?). Lawyers are like sharks and if they see that RIAA (that huge a$$ociation with $hitload$ of ca$h) starts bleeding some cash for lawyers they will be very attracted to defend this people.
Every new sued person is a potential new job for a lawyer.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
You can get it all, DRM-free, less than the cost of a CD, and legal.
Thank you thank you thank you - that was a class act.
.. and is useful in outlining the absurdity of certain viewpoints.
I got it.
You brilliantly illuminated the sort of thinking and false assumptions that are holding back progress, and kept a straight face all the way through. Its well done. Writing a good troll is a true art these days, and a well written one makes people think
Right up there with JerryLeeCooper's best.
Thx
The usual American solution is to cross-file, wherein defendant becomes cross-plantiff. Then plantiff might well withdraw their suit, but cross action proceeds. Most often, both are cleared in a settlement agreement.
Here, it appears the crossfile was not done, so the Judge has to unfortunately step in.
Dear Lord. I'm far from new here, and *never* in all my time reading /. have I seen so many people respond seriously to an old troll. What the hell is going on?
Let me guess... you are republican, right? ;-)
Perhaps instead of trying to force an antiquated medium on the general public, you'd offer a service wherein you would provide, for a fee, a DRM'ed copy of the CD's contents for use in portable players/etc? It's a well-known fact that CD's both scratch and outright break easily, and digital backups are often much more useful in terms of longevity, especially since they're much, much smaller than a CD.
While DRM sucks, it's the "legal" way to do it, and therefore, you're covering your ass. And if it's anything like the games industry, there's no money in it for retailers, anyway, and any extra dollars you can make by providing an actual service might be a good idea.
That said, the War on Drugs was far from successful, and I'm not sure if that post is actually even serious.
Screw the rules, I have green hair!
I have seen this at least once if not more already. Posted almost verbatim. Always by AC and it shows up in these RIAA related threads.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
...when it's not allowed?
Ok- internet piracy is to blame for all of your problems. So why don't we take a look at what we should blame for internet piracy, eh?
Personally (and shockingly), I blame the RIAA, and folks like Sony that are attempting to subvert and erode the rights of music customers, as well as the shift in technology allowing people to legally purchase much of the same music online.
Let's examine the options for a moment:
A.) I drive 20 minutes to the local record store, drop $15 for a CD containing 2 or 3 good songs, and quite possibly a variety of DRM measures, rootkits and other nonsense that can make listening to the aforementioned 2 or 3 good tracks much more difficult than it really should be, and of course, another 20 minutes to get home again.
B.) I preview all of the tracks online, and then download the 2 or 3 that I want for a dollar each. It takes far less time and costs much less than option A, although there is still a potential DRM issue.
C.) I find the full album on bitTorrent in a format that I know will play on every media device I own. It's not quite legal, but it is fast and costs me nothing.
I can't speak for everyone, but in my mind, option A is in a distant 3rd place.
That said, I don't remember the last time I bought a physical CD. On the other hand, I don't remember the last time I illegally downloaded a song or album I didn't have rights to, however it is the mindset that is important. If I decided I wanted a particular CD tomorrow, getting it from the old record store would easily be the last resort.
The "record store" as we know it is a dinosaur that is virtually doomed to extinction unless it can adapt to a changing market. Until the day when buying music the "right" way becomes nearly as simple, easy, and painless as doing it the "wrong" way, illegal downloads will continue. Running a business the same way it was done 20 years ago in a market changing as quickly as this one is, and whining about how no one buys CDs anymore just isn't going to cut it.
So, what your suggesting is another witch hunt to rival the quest to snuff out communism, when the real cause of this "problem" can is your beloved RIAA. If the music that was available was worth listening to, more people would buy CD's. The other thing that this neglects is that I can, quite legally, go online to get CD's. With stores like iTunes, and other following their business model, your "family friendly record store" business model is becomming outdated, and you have to assume that piracy is to blame rather than bad music and better, legal, distribution. Oh, and the reason books sell better is that THEY don't have DRM software that built in.
"{09f911029d74e35b/==\d84156c5635688c0}"
There's a different level of standards in a Civil suit.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Well, there is an opening for a nitwit.
Rabbi? She? I must be a bit behind the times on Judaism.
So, you prevented a customer from buying a CD, and you wonder why is it that you sell less CDs?
My other post is a First.
One question remains unanswered: who the hell in their right mind would EVER want to post that christian (low case intentional) crap that passes for music on the 'net?
"They need to stop harassing people who can't hope to match their legal resources. This woman basically just kicked them in the nuts, hard. Good for her. Just like a good old fashioned kick in the nuts, you don't feel the 'real' pain immediately, for the benefit of those without nuts or experience in having them kicked."
Why am I picturing the RIAA lawyers all standing there with their hands over their nads while a diminutive lady dressed in black with asthma and a bouffant [sp?] eyeing them up?
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
"I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of.
"Now take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store - and don't come back."
W.W.J.B - What would Jesus Ban? Could simply being an asshole and blacklisting your music selection have an adverse effect on your sales. After all I'm sure no one would steal christian music.
How about the fact that the President of Clear Channel radio said yesterday that pretty much the music (radio) industry is on it's way out?
Radio has the benefit of a large captive market - radio isn't going anywhere.
There are millions of commuters who spend hours in their cars every day. Aside from yakking on the phone, most listen to the radio.
Or, you could, you know, change your business model so that you adapt to todays society.
Perhaps it's you who is out of touch.
Another thing. The next time you want to create a work environment that does that is free of foul language, perhaps you should learn to not call people "bitches."
It's funny, it seems the RIAA thought they would just steamroll their way over people using big legal teams and ominous threats. Now, they are meeting resistance and potentially losing battles which are gonna cost them credibility and double legal fees (theirs plus the defendants). I mean, is it me or are they obviously just shaking people down hoping they get scared and pay up? If I were one of the lucky ones to have been scared into paying up early on I would be thinking about going back for some payback (literally), if at all legally possible.
If she wins flat out, a flood of copy-cat defenses will appear, since many, many of the RIAA's victims are in the same situation: no evidence against them, no money for them, atrocities have NOT been committed, etc. As soon as RIAA is forced to fully face the music one time, everyone else will rush to play the same tune.
And that kills the RIAA's backup business plan - "if you can't hold the product hostage, hold the customer hostage".
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
IANAL, but I think 'pro bono' means the lawyer won't get paid at all. I think what's meant is 'on contingency', that is, the lawyer only gets paid if he/she wins.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
I have as strong a sense of propriety and fairness as most, so, like most, the fact that the RIAA has filed suits against people who have had misfortunes heaped upon them by life's circumstances has aroused in me a sense of moral scorn for the RIAA. But, enough with the ad hominem. It is gratuitous for every story to highlight the adverse circumstances of a defendant, as if the unfortunate circumstances of that defendant is the dispositive feature of the case. Not every headline needs to be of the form: RIAA sues divorced mother (cf. this article); RIAA sues stroke victim (cf. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/17/05 1234); RIAA sues illiterate mother of five (cf. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/21/20 45219); RIAA sues family of two dead men (cf. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/15/20 23250); RIAA sues woman with multiple sclerosis (cf. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/07/23 51238); etc.
Before you point to the supposed "economic downturn", I'll note that the book store just across from my store is doing great business. Unlike CDs, it's harder to copy books over The Internet.
I get a lot of my books over the Internet these days, from Fictionwise and Baen Webscriptions. None of them are DRMed, they're more convenient to carry around and read on the go, I can fit a hundred paperbacks into a flash card the size of my thumbnail and read them on a PDA that fits in my pocket... and costs less than 100 paperbacks.
But it's not even the "Internet" that's killing your business.
The independant bookstore is dying, just like the independant record store is. If that book store across the road is doing great business, and it's not a chain store like Borders, then it's a miracle. And if it's a chain then it's doing great business selling CDs as well... and you don't need to look any further than the other side of the street to see where your sales are going. If they're not going to the chain store across the street, they're going to one within a few minutes driving.
Because Borders has pretty much every CD you do, and all the ones you refuse to carry and many of the "obscure, independent releases that no-one listens to, not even the people that buy them." And they're cheaper. And they've got a Starbucks. What on earth makes you think you can compete with that?
A case dismissed without prejudice can be brought again, once the plaintiff finds a new angle. The judge is saying the defendent has a right to closure, and owing the lack of evidence and shaky legal theory, she doesn't deserve to be forced to help pay for the RIAA's test of its tactics.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
I think you're mistaken. Most of the people I know have tuned out of that commercial slop radio and now listen exclusively to what's on their iPods (90% not bought digitally according some survey about the iTunes Store performance and iPods) or NPR.
Radio stations are changing formats to Spanish language because no one's listening to the crap anymore resulting in falling numbers, so they figure hey - there's a 10-15% population that's underserved in the spanish language market, let's get them!!!. It's sad that Spanish language radio appears to have more selection than "regular" radio in my area of the US from the limited listening I did.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
The RIAA isn't losing a significant amount of money, even if the claimed infringements were real. They are demanding huge sums that would destroy all but the richest people. *Who* they attack is just as relevant as *how*.
Suppose a $billion company sues another $billion company over miniscule infractions. This is perhaps still wrong, but the difference is somewhat akin to two pro hockey teams constantly highsticking each other, and a pro hockey team using baseball bats on a first-grader's hockey team.
In one case, it's a somewhat distasteful display of normal business aggression. In the other case, it's a morally repugnant display of inhumanity. Business v. business does nothing but bleed the litigants of some cash. Individuals at the companies are emotionally detached from the battle, and they can go home at the end of the day.
But such large scale attacks on natural persons in difficult situations destroys lives.
This is relevant to justice.
Pavlov wouldn't be so famous if he'd used a can opener instead of a bell.
For as screwed up as our legal system sometimes appears to be, I find it wonderful to see examples where it may actually be working within the confines of justice and fairness.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
I ask this question in all seriousness, and I hope it gets answered. What percentage of their cases that have gone to court has the RIAA actually won? I know they're getting settlements out the wazoo, but how many of the cases that go to court do they win? I keep hearing about cases that they dismiss with or without prejudice, but I haven't heard many in which they've actually won. I've been under the impression the number is fairly low, but it could just be those are the only ones that make the news.
can't believe someone posted this AGAIN.
He's trying to establish a new meme, you insensitive clod!
"It's sad that Spanish language radio appears to have more selection than "regular" radio in my area of the US from the limited listening I did."
Nah, i listen to a lot of spanish radio and at least in the western states and on XM it's the same quality as english radio. The same songs get played over and over, and it's controlled the same as any other radio station because they're all owned by the same company.
Why is no one buying CDs? Are people not interested in music? Do people prefer to watch TV, see films, read books? I don't know. But there is one, inescapable truth - Internet piracy is mostly to blame.
No one is buying CDs from your store because they are most likely overpriced or extremely marked up. (Depending on your point of view.)
I have no complaints about buying a brand new CD for $9.99. Most places will sell that CD for $14.99 - $18.99 or more.
If I can't buy a new CD for $9.99 or less I end up buying the CDs used for usually a very reasonable price. Sometimes as low as pennies for the disc + a few dollars shipping.
Buying a used Disc is great in my eyes because 100% of the purchase price goes to the shopkeep, as far as I know, and none of that goes back to the RIAA. Even though the original purchase did.
I think at the moment they're facing many enemies, but overall their greatest is in fact their own incompetence and inability to smoothly transition in a changing market. Their own enemy is simple greed.
For years and even decades, music companies have managed to milk the talent of skilled performers while at the same time overpumping and burning out mediocre ones. However, those days are gone, and the market has changed. Gone are the days when you needed to buy three tapes if you wanted a proper-quality version for your car, home, and office (there was some loss when copying tapes). Gone are the days when customers could not easily replicate music. Gone are the days when they could milk customers for an entire disc/tape/record when only 1-3 songs were worth bothering with. Moreover, while their models have also greatly depending on screwing over good musicians with draconian contracts. Yes, they still have such contracts, and some fools fall into them, but at the same time more and more are realizing that they don't need to RIAA to further themselves, or that it would be a case of 2 steps forward, 3 steps back in many cases. Lastly, customers are starting to turn away from the pop-performer crud that's been pumped for the last 5-8 years, and going back to music that was based on... well... music (and not some guy dancing on stage in fancy MTV duds). I work in a school district, and I'm very very happy to notice that even the kids are starting to turn away from lip-syncing low-talent hacks and go back to the good stuff.
So they've lost their target market. They've lost their baseline products. Heck, they've even lost their longstanding model of suppliers. The biggest part is the greed of it all, as they still expect the same massively-inflated profits. Keep in mind too, that this is not revenues I'm speaking of, but profits. After all the expenses, it's still a massive money they come ahead with. Perhaps that money might be declining in the future, or they might have to spend some of it developing new infrastructures for a time, but it's still a shitload and they've no right to complain at all.
Disregarding the fact that the GP is an old cut 'n' paste troll that's crop up several times on /. before, your suggestion makes no sense. A retailer has no more right to copy copyrighted material than a pirate, and simply sticking DRM on the tracks doesn't magically make the copy above board. If it did, pirates would just invent their own (easily cracked) DRM and be impervious to punishment.
A retailer would have to have a specific agreement with the recording industry for them to not pursue him over this - and while a big chain might be able to negotiate this (I'm not convinced they could, but they might) a little mom 'n' pop retailer wouldn't stand a chance.
Your post advocates a
(X) technical ( ) legislative (X) market-based (X) vigilante
approach to fighting media piracy. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work.
(X) Sales statistics reflect far more than the effects of piracy
(X) Implementation would require expensive, industry-wide cooperation
(X) Lack of centrally controlling authority for record stores
(X) Business owners stand to profit by non-compliance
(X) "Open relays" in foreign markets
(X) Many businesses cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
Specifically, your plan fails to account for
(X) Decreased music sales due to increase in bland, unimaginative content
(X) Consumers will blacklist stores that participate
(X) The internet is a *world-wide* network. You did know that, right?
(X) The "industry" does not care about you as much as you care about it
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
(X) I need to show ID to buy a CD about as much as I do to buy batteries, thanks
(X) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
been shown practical
(X) Blacklists suck
(X) We should be able to talk about piracy without being punished
(X) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
(X) Piracy is largely due to the failure of "the industry" to adapt
(X) The people affected by the over-litigiousness and mob-style scare tactics of "the industry" *are* victims
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(X) Your sob story has nothing to do with the issue at hand
(X) You are a troll, and probably a shill
(X) They have *not* fought the war on drugs with "skill"
(X) Christian rock sucks
(X) It is properly spelled "l33t"
(X) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
(X) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your
house down!
Why do people feel an entitlement to profit? In capitalism, there is no guarantee that you HAVE to make money... So your store isn't working out.. boo hoo... Regardless of the reasons, own up to facts, and for the sake of your family find a realistic way to fix it or another way to put bread on the table. There is no lack of opportunity out there (especially if you are writing this from the USA)
Otherwise, check back in a few years, and let us know how that absurd blacklist idea worked out for you.. ok?
*cough*astroturf*cough*
Does anyone believe the above post is actually for real?
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
The cost for my band to record and duplicate our second CD was about $4.50 each or thereabouts. iTMS gives us $6.37 per full album sale. CDBaby gives us about $7 each.
Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
I almost shot coffee out my nose when I got to that part!
I don't care why you're posting AC
Pirate1: "Dude, I'm going to put this CD on the Internet right away."
Pirate2: "Yeah, dude, that's really lete [sic], you'll get lots of respect."
Are you quite sure that's what they said? Are you telling me characters from Reefer Madness shop at your store?
I grabbed the little shit by his shirt. "So...you're going to copy this to your friends over The Internet, punk?" I asked him in my best Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry voice.
Did you ever get in trouble for committing assault? Were they impressed with your Dirty Harry voice?
I am inspired by artists such as Metallica that have taken a stand against the powerful pirate lobby.
Could you post some information on the powerful pirate lobby, including how much money they've donated to each party?
Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.
This is what the industry does not want! Why? Digital is forever.
Vinyl wore out, warped in the hot car, suffered from freezing weather, and suffered much more from younger brother treating your record collection like a frisbee.
The industry sold you multiple copies of anything you really liked, followed by reel-to-reel versions, 8-track versions, cassette versions, and CD versions of the same d@mn music.
Then, when your CD's in your car were damaged, scratched, stolen, or otherwise rendered useless, they fought your ability to make legal backups so that they could continue selling you the same d@mn music over and over again.
Now with iPods and DRM'd digital downloads that only play on some or one portable player, they're still selling you the same d@mn music that you've purchased how many times before?
That's the problem with DRM-free digital music. Buy once and play everywhere forever.
The true crime in this case, btw, is not the judge finally saying you have to wave the white flag now, or go to court and die. The true crime is that it took two d@mn years to get to this point. It should have been tossed out fifteen minutes after it was filed in the first place! I predict option 3 -- a huge settlement offer to drop the case now rather than dismiss with prejudice, or go to court.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
So, you prevented a customer from buying a CD, and you wonder why is it that you sell less CDs?
.. Piracy. Killing only one of 9 major factors is only going to put a minor dent in the overall CD sales problem.
That is a small drop in the bucket. Try any of the following;
1 A movie is cheaper. DVD purchases + rentals by my family is at least 20X our CD purchases.
2 Poor Quality. Dynamic range has been compressed killing the advantage of CD's
3 Bad record of defective by design releases may break your PC. Hard to quickly identify real CD's.
4 Rebellion against the lawsuits
5 Internet Radio
6 High Prices (I know repeat of #1)
7 More competition for the entertainment dollar.. Broadband subscription instead of dial-up, New HDTV, DVD, Game Console, MP3 Player, Cable Subscription, Gas for road trip, Better Wheels, Satelite radio, Clothes, Amusement park, Concert,... Again High priced CD's limit purchases.
8 For some, fair quality DRM downloads at a buck a track. You don't have to purchase a $18 CD for 2 or 3 good tracks.
9 And last but not least
The truth shall set you free!
W.W.J.B - What would Jesus Ban? Could simply being an asshole and blacklisting your music selection have an adverse effect on your sales. After all I'm sure no one would steal christian music.
I have found much Christian music to have almost all of the same aliments as major labels music.
Compressed to sound loud
High Prices as other major labels or higher.
Same association.. RIAA
Same restrictions on public performance (can't play it in church without yet another license)
Other than the lyrics, it's the same stuff they play on the radio for the most part.
The biggest reasons I don't buy Christian music is I have little exposure to it. It is seldom pirated and as a result, I have little knowledge of what is good.
I went to an Easter church service where the choir did "Red Letters". I bought the CD (expensive). I didn't like the band. I haven't played it since. What a waste of money. I would much rather had the recording of the church choir.
I remember what happened to the greedy money changers.
The truth shall set you free!
Oh, come ON!!! Dude, you're going to wear out your CTRL and V keys at this rate.
Either one of two things is true about this "post that won't die":
1) It's the shiniest green astroturf you ever saw, or
2) Someone thinks they're being funny.
Either way, ENOUGH already!
"Oh boy! Are we going to try something dangerous?"
They have fought the War on Drugs with skill, so why not the War on Piracy?
Troll!!
When the kids went to bed, my wife asked me, "Will we be able to keep the house, David?"
I just shook my head, and tried to hold back the tears. "I don't know, Jenny. I don't know."
Double troll!!
CD's came out in 1981, 1981!! CD's came out a year before MS. PAC-MAN. The music studios are long overdue for a technology shift.
I came out in 1975, seven years before MS PAC MAN.
I'm still doing fine.
As seen on Kuro5hin.org: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/2/103735/275
As a retail-based small business owner myself, I'm afraid that your problems have nothing to do with the market as a whole, but only with yourself. You've made a niche store; that is, one that does not sell the most popular genres. And because of this, you're business is failing in a generally weaker economy than a decade ago.
Piracy is not a new problem. When you first bought your store there were plenty of people that would not pay for your product, instead choosing to get it free. It's your responsibility to provide a product that your customers wish to purchase.
I own and run a gaming store. Many gaming stores are going under, and "The Internet..." is named the biggest culprit. I can sympathize with your frustration. However, rather than bitch about the fact the we can't match our competition's prices, I do other things to draw in customers. Artist Signings, Tournaments, Leagues, and so on. You could do the same sort of thing - get a big name ion for a signing, have a local band play one night, have a traivia night, or whatever. But realize that you need to do something different, and that something is not swear at your customers.
And as a father, if you are unable to provide for your children, you have a moral responsibility to put aside your goal of owning a profitable small business and find a job that pays you enough to support them. Their needs are more important than you being able to work at your dream job. And you need to do this right now, with no excuses allowed.
I have a very close friend who is a divorce attorney. It is a well discussed subject that you alude to there in your post. Attorneys (at least divorce attorneys) are VERY aware of that strategy and will use it bankrupt the other person. It does happen and it is known among attorneys.
I, personally, used his services when my ex-wife first left me. She wound up moving to Finland when we got divorced (long story).
She declared bankruptcy about 14 months after leaving. She had been back to the USA for no less than 12 depositions during discovery. Almost every legal action was purposely delayed and every "grey" area was stretched as far as the judge would allow. Really, looking back, she never had a chance. My attorney was free (remember, he was a friend) and hers cost money.
It may be mean, but it worked and I got the exact result I wanted.
(And for those who judge, all I can say is "all is fair in love and war" and if you are ever in the same position, I suspect you too will look out for #1. Why? Because the alternative is even worse. In divorce, you don't just lose -- you can lose everything you have worked your whole life for.)
The Senators and Congresscritters the Hollywood content cartel bought and paid for in both political parties, presumably. In the form of law that will be even harder for a victim targeted by lawbot to defend against.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Are you sure you're supposed to be here? It's bad enough a slashdotter claiming to know a woman but actually, you know, touching their toilet parts? Wow!
I imagine most slashdot users have had sex. Your average slashdot user can program a VCR, hook up a stereo, and run spyware removal software. The real question is
a) do you want to share a bed with someone who after sex asks you to program their DVR
b) do you want to share a bed with someone who's only interest in you is the fact that you can program a DVR
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
This is what the industry does not want! Why? Digital is forever.
Digital may be forever however that doesn't mean there are no chances to resell the same product. You just need to make it worth it to the consumer. Eg higher bitrates (although that hits a cap pretty fast) or possibly surround sound.
meh
The Conservative and Reform branches have been ordaining women for quite a while now (Reform a fair amount longer). As far as I know, Orthodox still only ordains men.
RIAA Caught in Tough Legal Situation
Replace "Tough" with "Well-Deserved" and I'll buy it.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Don't look now but your warranty just gave out
I can't say for a fact that she has good sex, but she does have alot of it
I love the internet.
What the court awards and what the RIAA collects are two very different things.
All the judge can do in a civil case is say, "Defendant owes Plaintiff $x. Have a nice day." After that, it's up to Plaintiff to figure out how to collect.
My slightly (I am a Landlord, so I have some experience with judgments and collections) uneducated guess is that in the case of default judgments, their actual collections do not exceed their legal, court, and collection fees.
The money here is made on the settlements (a $3000 settlement just for sending a few First Class letters and operating a small call center. Score!), and the real money (they hope) is made when they discourage people from sharing files with each other.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
The RIAA wins a ton of default judgments (defendant doesn't show up), which they can technically put in the "Win column". However, I've never read about a case where they have prevailed if the defendant submits an actual defense.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock