mmm. So if China offered to build our jets and tanks and NSA computers... we should go based on them being the cheapest company that was reliable.
Of *course* the US government should give out US government money based on whether the companies are full of people who support the country. (and so should any other country).
Now- if you want to talk about Post Office Vehicles-- sure- go with whoever makes a reliable product (we've been doing that for years).
But our social security processing? Our income tax processing? Our government control and email systems???
---
And.. should we give IBM government contracts from united states citizens taxes meant to promote jobs if IBM is going to take those dollars and spend them overseas? Several companies have done this with the recent job programs. That's just insane.
---
Fix it self or not- it's dumb to give IBM ( or whoever ) 100 million dollar contract intended to boost jobs and then they turn right around and ship all the money overseas and create jobs there instead. It's dumb to give Microsoft 100 million in tax deferals on their profits for licensing fees and then they turn right around and lay off 7000 us workers and hire a slew of indians with the savings.
---
But it's going to fix itself- because 98.5% of americans are running out of money. Only the top 1.5% are getting ahead these days. I'm starting to wonder when the 98.5% are going to wake up and realize the top 1.5% no longer provides any benefit to the rest of the country but are instead just glorified leaches pumping money out of the country into other countries and into their own pockets. The guy who passed through home depot destroyed thousands of jobs- took huge bonuses- and destroyed shareholder value. Why are we letting executives like that continue to do this?
---
At the base-- It's our damn tax dollars. If we arbitrarily decide that IBM has crossed the line- we can lobby against further tax breaks and contracts.
Government is absolutely an agent of social service.
However, in IBM's case, it's also issues of gross national security. What the hell are we thinking using mainframes with software written by and supported by one of our largest national rivals. Are we suicidal???
What to think of the rest of your post.
If a pill costs $1.00 to make- we should charge the indian 12 cents (below cost) but charge bill gates $1,200. What the hell are you thinking? Are you on drugs?
Our employment situation will tighten up as the baby boomers retire.
Over the next five years, 5 million "extra" will retire- that's about 2-3% unemployment right there. (so a drop from 9.8% to 6.8% but from u6 (real unemployment) a drop from about 17.6% to about 15%).
Wages overseas increase (housing is blistering over there-- $200k when the workers make $5000) and it becomes less profitable to offshore.
We lose the ability to pay premium prices and while gasoline becomes more expensive, things like movies and pills become cheaper (probably that's 10 years out).
True capitalism wouldn't be bad- our costs get cheaper while our wages stagnate. What we have right now are tons of monopoly pricing situations from companies who are offshoring the work and not hiring locally. It's unsustainable (both in hard terms and politically).
u2 is no more real than cpi measures real inflation. U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work. It was modified -- a key change was that when your unemployment benefits are lost- voila, you are no longer unemployed! If you stop actively searching for a job because none are availabe... voila! You are not unemployed. It's the magic "U2" number.
u6 is real unemployment.
If you really have no clue about the games they are playing with u2 and cpi, you need to read up. cpi grossly understands inflation because that saves the government from increasing cola related items (like social security).
And american COSTS have to normalize too (no excuse for us paying 8x for movies and 50x for pills compared to our competitors-- especially since many of those drugs were developed in the US).
Housing is clearly going to stagnate or head down in prices for the next couple decades because people's incomes are not going to support increasing housing prices.
If Microsoft and IBM likes chinese and indian labor so much- how about making the executives move there.
Then if they cross the government, they can simply disappear at night (in china) or perhaps be killed by some random extremist (india).
But no... they stay in the u.s. reaping the benefits of our legal system, police, military protection, democracy and "relative" safety (i.e. our government does bad things too- but not to the wealthy much any more).
If IBM has 1000 employees in the US and 90000 employees overseas- then why should they get us government work any more.
Seriously-- this is going to fix itself. Rampant inflation in china and india (over 100% on the low end of society) combined with deflation here and the retiring baby boomers should give us some relief in under five years.
Likewise, it's reached a point where the u.s. consumer isn't willing to spend future money any more because that future money is increasingly dubious.
Overseas capitalism wouldn't be so bad if it resulted in cheaper prices here. But it doesn't. Laws protect the right to sell drugs for 1/50th of the cost there and forbid importation here. To sell movies for $2.50 there and $20.00 here. You can't have it both ways. You can't ship the jobs over there AND keep charging 10 to 20 times as much for products in the U.S.
Are you surprised with real unemployment approaching 20% that citizens of the U.S. might be just a little bit upset over a company shipping jobs overseas but then claiming to be a US company when bidding for U.S. government jobs and tax breaks?
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
Slashdot 57:30, If we covet making a spelling mistake for each wife, at some point we forsake other gods and we may do unto others before they can do unto us first on/..
On the internet you type, you move your arm to the mouse, you move the mouse, you shift in your chair, you type some more. You also use core muscles to remain upright.
Watching TV, you pretty much lounge completely motionless most of the time.
Microsoft has a very high profit margin compared to ibm and ford (about the same as goldman sachs who are doing illegal stuff (front running stocks), have access to 0% money which they use to buy 3% treasures (hey, free cash), and are legally allowed to hold worthless paper on their books at fair value.
Caterpillar and Ford.. both have 2-3% profit margins. 3-7% is a reasonable profit margin. For Microsoft to make and maintain a near 30% profit margin is a sure sign of funny business.
There was an article here or on Yahoo about a gas company that is setting up a solar plant. Seems like it could also set up a wind plant.
When the wind is blowing, use less gas.
Seems like they were starting with about 90mw solar + 3800 mwatt gas plant. Add a 90mw wind plant to that and there will be times when you are using 5% less natural gas.
Dish network starts messing up. Resetting receiver. A couple repairmen tried canned solutions and failed to fix it.
Finally the third guy (who apparently had real trouble shooting skills instead of a manual of standard solutions) put a meter on each wire, found even tho it looked solid, the ground wire had no circuit. Tracted it and found it was broken invisibly by heat/cooling wear no bend- just a 1/64" gap right before the clamp.
They've already invented inexpensive lightweight solar panals (see Nanosolar).
As a result, their entire production for the next few years has already been sold to a solar power plant in germany.
I figure I was blowing $2k for computers every 3 years. If I extend that by a year or two, I get two solar panals and support hardware with the savings. A cost turns into a profit center.
Do you think it would cost $17.00 to import dvd's into the U.S?
How many DVD's could one person buy for $2.99 and carry back and sell for 19.99 if there were not laws prohibiting them from doing so.
The difference in price is a result of laws which support an artificial market. The real cost to make the DVD is under $2.99 (most likely under a quarter). We pay more because the market isn't efficient because laws were passed to make it illegal to bypass artificial barriers.
The same is true for drugs. That.10 pill is sold for.10 at a profit in india and china. In all likelyhood, even if your importation theory is correct, it could be sold at a profit for much less than $1.00 in the U.S. The only reason it is $5.00 here is because artificial barriers block an efficient market.
Here's the problem. I don't mind shipping the jobs to india because they can get buy for $14,000 a year. I mind that I have to compete with them when they get medicine, dvd's, and many other products at the true price while I have to pay grossly inflated prices. It wouldn't matter if my income was stagnant if the price of goods was dropping by 10% per year. Which is how capitalism is *supposed* to work.
You know.. efficient market. If your prices are too high- someone will undercut them. Only now we have laws that block an efficient market. So I get to see jobs shipped overseas because I cost too much AND pay more for the same items.
I figure it lasts another 4-8 years personally. The end of this trend has already started.
Okay... you are using some special meaning of an efficient market.
I'm talking plain english here.
If hot dogs are selling for $1 on this block and $15 three blocks away, an "english language" efficient market is going to close that gap.
Americans are basically being pumped dry of wealth at this point. You either sneak around the system (by taking a thermos with a hot dog into the theater) or just refuse to participate.
Fair enough-- I pay $10 for 60 500mg tablets as a generic and miscalculated too (what is it? -- about 20 cents a pill I guess).
I'm not arguing it would be more expensive elsewhere, only that with such gross imbalances in price, in a rational market, people would arbitrage the price. Our market is not rational
The market is also inefficient when any participant with more resources uses some of those resources to change the rules of the market to favor that participant.
For example, the same movie sells in china for 2.49 and in america for 19.99 (often with an english soundtrack for both). In an efficient market, the movie would be purchased there for 2.49 and sold here for 4.99 making a 100% profit for someone. But artificial rules restrict this.
For example, drugs which are out of patent are sold in India and China for 10 cents a pill but for 33 cents a pill in the united states (example- metformin) and those in patent are sold for about 10 to 50 cents a pill in india and china and for 5.00 a pill in the united states. (and apparently viagra is much cheaper in canada than the u.s.). In an efficient market those pills would be purchased, imported, and resold. But artificial laws prevent this rational activity.
For example, Microsoft absolutely slaughtered many competitors through illegal monopolistic behaviors (for which it lost many court cases years after the competitors were dead or crippled). In an efficient market, there would have been other options.
Get a job with required overtime, required holiday work, low status, poor dating prospects.
At least you used to have freedom, security, and high pay.
Now you've lost freedom (sarbanes oxley is horrific. at my company, a one line change requires review and approval by multiple people (including me as I'm a supervisor).
You lost your security since so many jobs are being offshored (at my company we are down about 35 people and up about 80ish indians onshore and probably another 150 indians offshore.).
And lately, you've lost the high pay. I have friends who only make about $58k a year. That's about $46k after taxes but let's say $48k. Interest on the college debts is $4k a year. How do they live?
Stay away from computing for corporations. It's a terrible job right now. Perhaps things will be better once the dollar falls enough or enough baby boomers retire.
Slashdot Mirror
They no longer pay full taxes in the US.
Read the last year's news on IBM and Microsoft.
mmm. So if China offered to build our jets and tanks and NSA computers... we should go based on them being the cheapest company that was reliable.
Of *course* the US government should give out US government money based on whether the companies are full of people who support the country. (and so should any other country).
Now- if you want to talk about Post Office Vehicles-- sure- go with whoever makes a reliable product (we've been doing that for years).
But our social security processing? Our income tax processing? Our government control and email systems???
---
And .. should we give IBM government contracts from united states citizens taxes meant to promote jobs if IBM is going to take those dollars and spend them overseas? Several companies have done this with the recent job programs. That's just insane.
---
Fix it self or not- it's dumb to give IBM ( or whoever ) 100 million dollar contract intended to boost jobs and then they turn right around and ship all the money overseas and create jobs there instead.
It's dumb to give Microsoft 100 million in tax deferals on their profits for licensing fees and then they turn right around and lay off 7000 us workers and hire a slew of indians with the savings.
---
But it's going to fix itself- because 98.5% of americans are running out of money. Only the top 1.5% are getting ahead these days. I'm starting to wonder when the 98.5% are going to wake up and realize the top 1.5% no longer provides any benefit to the rest of the country but are instead just glorified leaches pumping money out of the country into other countries and into their own pockets. The guy who passed through home depot destroyed thousands of jobs- took huge bonuses- and destroyed shareholder value. Why are we letting executives like that continue to do this?
---
At the base-- It's our damn tax dollars. If we arbitrarily decide that IBM has crossed the line- we can lobby against further tax breaks and contracts.
I suppose you have to attack like that to boost your ego, "Lord" ender. No skin off my back.
Using some specialized term that 99% of the population wouldn't use only shows naive ivory tower elitism.
U6 is what was called "UN"employment before the government started inventing terms to hide the truth.
I've never heard a single person say they were "underemployed" when they couldn't find a job.
And that certainly didn't change when their unemployment benefits ran out.
Then they would just say, "I'm unemployed. And now have have no benefits. I'm screwed."
Not going to bother feeding the troll any more.
Government is absolutely an agent of social service.
However, in IBM's case, it's also issues of gross national security.
What the hell are we thinking using mainframes with software written by and supported by one of our largest national rivals. Are we suicidal???
What to think of the rest of your post.
If a pill costs $1.00 to make- we should charge the indian 12 cents (below cost) but charge bill gates $1,200. What the hell are you thinking? Are you on drugs?
Our employment situation will tighten up as the baby boomers retire.
Over the next five years, 5 million "extra" will retire- that's about 2-3% unemployment right there. (so a drop from 9.8% to 6.8% but from u6 (real unemployment) a drop from about 17.6% to about 15%).
Wages overseas increase (housing is blistering over there-- $200k when the workers make $5000) and it becomes less profitable to offshore.
We lose the ability to pay premium prices and while gasoline becomes more expensive, things like movies and pills become cheaper (probably that's 10 years out).
True capitalism wouldn't be bad- our costs get cheaper while our wages stagnate. What we have right now are tons of monopoly pricing situations from companies who are offshoring the work and not hiring locally. It's unsustainable (both in hard terms and politically).
u2 is no more real than cpi measures real inflation.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work. It was modified -- a key change was that when your unemployment benefits are lost- voila, you are no longer unemployed! If you stop actively searching for a job because none are availabe... voila! You are not unemployed. It's the magic "U2" number.
u6 is real unemployment.
If you really have no clue about the games they are playing with u2 and cpi, you need to read up.
cpi grossly understands inflation because that saves the government from increasing cola related items (like social security).
Agreed- american wages have to normalize.
And american COSTS have to normalize too (no excuse for us paying 8x for movies and 50x for pills compared to our competitors-- especially since many of those drugs were developed in the US).
Housing is clearly going to stagnate or head down in prices for the next couple decades because people's incomes are not going to support increasing housing prices.
If Microsoft and IBM likes chinese and indian labor so much- how about making the executives move there.
Then if they cross the government, they can simply disappear at night (in china) or perhaps be killed by some random extremist (india).
But no... they stay in the u.s. reaping the benefits of our legal system, police, military protection, democracy and "relative" safety (i.e. our government does bad things too- but not to the wealthy much any more).
If IBM has 1000 employees in the US and 90000 employees overseas- then why should they get us government work any more.
Seriously-- this is going to fix itself. Rampant inflation in china and india (over 100% on the low end of society) combined with deflation here and the retiring baby boomers should give us some relief in under five years.
Likewise, it's reached a point where the u.s. consumer isn't willing to spend future money any more because that future money is increasingly dubious.
Overseas capitalism wouldn't be so bad if it resulted in cheaper prices here. But it doesn't. Laws protect the right to sell drugs for 1/50th of the cost there and forbid importation here. To sell movies for $2.50 there and $20.00 here. You can't have it both ways. You can't ship the jobs over there AND keep charging 10 to 20 times as much for products in the U.S.
Are you surprised with real unemployment approaching 20% that citizens of the U.S. might be just a little bit upset over a company shipping jobs overseas but then claiming to be a US company when bidding for U.S. government jobs and tax breaks?
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
Slashdot 57:30, If we covet making a spelling mistake for each wife, at some point we forsake other gods and we may do unto others before they can do unto us first on /..
Nah, he's just playing fast and lose with spelling.
Read questionable content web comic.
He's probably recommended a couple dozen independent bands and artists over the last several years and I liked at least a third of them.
To be fair, there was a risk of run away egos torpedoing the project.
On the internet you type, you move your arm to the mouse, you move the mouse, you shift in your chair, you type some more. You also use core muscles to remain upright.
Watching TV, you pretty much lounge completely motionless most of the time.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=msft
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=ibm
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=gs
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=f
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=cat
Microsoft has a very high profit margin compared to ibm and ford (about the same as goldman sachs who are doing illegal stuff (front running stocks), have access to 0% money which they use to buy 3% treasures (hey, free cash), and are legally allowed to hold worthless paper on their books at fair value.
Caterpillar and Ford.. both have 2-3% profit margins. 3-7% is a reasonable profit margin. For Microsoft to make and maintain a near 30% profit margin is a sure sign of funny business.
There was an article here or on Yahoo about a gas company that is setting up a solar plant. Seems like it could also set up a wind plant.
When the wind is blowing, use less gas.
Seems like they were starting with about 90mw solar + 3800 mwatt gas plant. Add a 90mw wind plant to that and there will be times when you are using 5% less natural gas.
Here's another low probability problem.
Dish network starts messing up. Resetting receiver. A couple repairmen tried canned solutions and failed to fix it.
Finally the third guy (who apparently had real trouble shooting skills instead of a manual of standard solutions) put a meter on each wire, found even tho it looked solid, the ground wire had no circuit. Tracted it and found it was broken invisibly by heat/cooling wear no bend- just a 1/64" gap right before the clamp.
Okay... but you also have a car... and the chip... and the brake in the car... and the accelerator in the car.
And you probably even have much access to the inputs to the chip unless the car is networked.
Oh come on... are you going to trust what people say over hard evidence?
Are you trying to tell me these hair and other dna found ON THE SCENE along with fingerprints that match your client were planted?
Care to put away the tin foil hat?
They've already invented inexpensive lightweight solar panals (see Nanosolar).
As a result, their entire production for the next few years has already been sold to a solar power plant in germany.
I figure I was blowing $2k for computers every 3 years. If I extend that by a year or two, I get two solar panals and support hardware with the savings. A cost turns into a profit center.
If you'll send me $100, I'll send you up to $200!!!
Do you think it would cost $17.00 to import dvd's into the U.S?
How many DVD's could one person buy for $2.99 and carry back and sell for 19.99 if there were not laws prohibiting them from doing so.
The difference in price is a result of laws which support an artificial market. The real cost to make the DVD is under $2.99 (most likely under a quarter). We pay more because the market isn't efficient because laws were passed to make it illegal to bypass artificial barriers.
The same is true for drugs. That .10 pill is sold for .10 at a profit in india and china. In all likelyhood, even if your importation theory is correct, it could be sold at a profit for much less than $1.00 in the U.S. The only reason it is $5.00 here is because artificial barriers block an efficient market.
Here's the problem. I don't mind shipping the jobs to india because they can get buy for $14,000 a year. I mind that I have to compete with them when they get medicine, dvd's, and many other products at the true price while I have to pay grossly inflated prices. It wouldn't matter if my income was stagnant if the price of goods was dropping by 10% per year. Which is how capitalism is *supposed* to work.
You know.. efficient market. If your prices are too high- someone will undercut them. Only now we have laws that block an efficient market. So I get to see jobs shipped overseas because I cost too much AND pay more for the same items.
I figure it lasts another 4-8 years personally. The end of this trend has already started.
Okay... you are using some special meaning of an efficient market.
I'm talking plain english here.
If hot dogs are selling for $1 on this block and $15 three blocks away, an "english language" efficient market is going to close that gap.
Americans are basically being pumped dry of wealth at this point. You either sneak around the system (by taking a thermos with a hot dog into the theater) or just refuse to participate.
Fair enough-- I pay $10 for 60 500mg tablets as a generic and miscalculated too (what is it? -- about 20 cents a pill I guess).
I'm not arguing it would be more expensive elsewhere, only that with such gross imbalances in price, in a rational market, people would arbitrage the price.
Our market is not rational
The market is also inefficient when any participant with more resources uses some of those resources to change the rules of the market to favor that participant.
For example, the same movie sells in china for 2.49 and in america for 19.99 (often with an english soundtrack for both). In an efficient market, the movie would be purchased there for 2.49 and sold here for 4.99 making a 100% profit for someone. But artificial rules restrict this.
For example, drugs which are out of patent are sold in India and China for 10 cents a pill but for 33 cents a pill in the united states (example- metformin) and those in patent are sold for about 10 to 50 cents a pill in india and china and for 5.00 a pill in the united states. (and apparently viagra is much cheaper in canada than the u.s.). In an efficient market those pills would be purchased, imported, and resold. But artificial laws prevent this rational activity.
For example, Microsoft absolutely slaughtered many competitors through illegal monopolistic behaviors (for which it lost many court cases years after the competitors were dead or crippled). In an efficient market, there would have been other options.
Spend $50k to $80k on a degree.
Get a job with required overtime, required holiday work, low status, poor dating prospects.
At least you used to have freedom, security, and high pay.
Now you've lost freedom (sarbanes oxley is horrific. at my company, a one line change requires review and approval by multiple people (including me as I'm a supervisor).
You lost your security since so many jobs are being offshored (at my company we are down about 35 people and up about 80ish indians onshore and probably another 150 indians offshore.).
And lately, you've lost the high pay. I have friends who only make about $58k a year. That's about $46k after taxes but let's say $48k. Interest on the college debts is $4k a year. How do they live?
Stay away from computing for corporations. It's a terrible job right now. Perhaps things will be better once the dollar falls enough or enough baby boomers retire.