Slashdot Mirror
IBM Stops Disclosing US Headcount Data
theodp writes "ComputerWorld reports that IBM has stopped providing breakouts on US employees, closing a door to data that provided insights into the bellwether company's employment shift. In its latest Annual Report, Big Blue only provides its global headcount, and an IBM spokesman confirmed that disclosure of US headcount is a thing of the past. The Rochester Institute of Technology's Ron Hira called the US workforce data critical for policymakers trying to understand the dynamics of offshoring. 'By hiding its offshoring, IBM is doing a disservice to America — through omission the company is providing misleading labor market signals and information to policy makers,' Hira said. Ironically, CEO Sam Palmisano's Letter to Shareholders, which accompanied the Annual Report, touts how IBM's Analytics and 'Smarter Planet' efforts are empowering US government decision-makers. Nondisclosure domestically and abroad seems to be the new rule of thumb for Big Tech, sparking calls for government intervention." IBM laid off about 10,000 US workers last year, and 2,900 so far this year, according to the Alliance@IBM, a labor union.
Although unions generally lead to sloth, corruption and economic failure, in this one narrow instance I must admit they are providing a useful service.
It would be trivial for those policy makers to order GSA to drop IBM from its vendor list...
America is exploiting these countries? Try again ass monkey, corporations are.
except when it comes to information
Your loss is OUR gain. 10,000 less American workers will probably translate into 100,000 Indian workers who will now be lifted out of poverty. Why is it that Americans (especially on Slashdot) proclaim they love the free market and libertarianism, but then get all fucking communist when it affects THEIR jobs?
however america is ass monkey corporations. since america's government has been controlled by corporate backed administrations since last 60 years
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...then why are you hiding it?
Companies that operate contrary to the national interest of the countries they operate in, shouldn't be allowed to operate in those countries.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
--Thomas Jefferson
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
I'm not saying you're wrong but when it comes to US Citizens losing their jobs, yes, the government has a problem with that.
I won't care to elaborate on why that is, but the fact that you seem surprised is a little confusing. It shouldn't be surprising that a government has more of an interest in the health of the job market for its citizens over the job[less] rate of another countries population.
Stop with the federal and state contract with IBM. And when they give up the data, then it is time for contracts to be tied to the nations monetary difference if the nation fixes their money. In particular, since a lot of IBM hardware is made in China, then we should determine the true difference on their money, and then their contracts should be adjusted accordingly. So, if it is determined that money should be 1 to 1 with Yuan to Dollar, rather than the currently fixed 7 to 1, then the contract needs to be less 1/7 of the bottom of another contract to win.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I think ceasing to disclose U.S. employment sends a very clear labor market signal: The off-shoring will continue, probably at a rate much higher than you were thinking or are comfortable with. What more does a policy maker really need to know than "IBM is shipping jobs over seas so fast they don't want to talk about it"?
The enemies of Democracy are
its globalization. america has to come to terms with the age of globalization, especially after forcing many countries to come to terms with it itself.
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I run a small company. The reality is, off shoring especially with the Open Source market makes entirely too much sense from a business perspective. I can have 4 United States based people, and another 12 strategically located throughout the world. The cost of the 4 is the same as the 12. It is better for my customers, and frankly my pocket book. Also, to be honest Open Source expertise is easier to obtain off american shores.
The downside to the largest economy in the world is that it is also ridiculously expensive. Of course not as bad as western Europe but still...
Get your PostgreSQL here: http://www.commandprompt.com/
And so begins the American slide into irrelevance... Hooray.
it's an indian company
its' time for the usa, and especially new york state, to stop granting ibm special favors. all ibm has done for new york is slowly kill the hudson valley technology employment sector, including entire cities. ibm has betrayed its birthplace
fuck ibm, treat it like a foreign entity with questionable and dubious agendas. because ibm most certainly treats the usa like that, while the usa still coddles and mollifies it, like a deluded lover. ibm's betrayal of the usa and especially the hudson valley is longstanding and obvious, and now it is just passive aggressive, like a cheating spouse who has gotten away with countless crimes and is now embarrassed at how thoroughly he has duped their spouse
its a charade. fuck ibm, ibm only deserves scorn and hostility, unless you're in bangalore
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The govt should pass a new law that forces companies of all sizes to provide a breakdown of where they do business and where they hire. They should punish companies that do not hire where they make and sell things.
Every business should be forced to hire in the locality where they make money. This should be done not only countrywide, but statewide, citywide and blockwide.
Forget about stupid things like 'comparative advantage' - we will follow Mao's great leap forward. That will create a lot of wealth.
For the truly stupid, I'm being sarcastic.
Labor at IBM is unionized? And these unions can't see any connection between unionized labor in the US, and IBM's preference to offshore labor to places without unionized labor? Hey, if you want to stop IBM from shipping jobs overseas, why don't you try unionizing all of their overseas employees?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
however what is appalling is that, despite all the exploitations they suffer at the hands of their corporations, copyright, patent trolling, ACTA, healthcare shit and alike, there are STILL people getting worked up when the obvious is stated, like the parent i posted.
and that is despite they themselves complain everytime about it.
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You forgot to mention the 40hr work week and a minimum wage. Unions have their downside, but at least one generation has been significantly better off for their existence.
All companies, especially publicly held ones, should be forced to report their labor figures every quarter along with their financial information. Just like we should track capital flowing in and out of our country, we should be able to track jobs as well. Remember, the more you know...
rts
True globalization would include the free flow of people as well as business. Of course all countries who claim to be supporters of globalization have tariff and subsidies as well, so it's a bit of a joke.
Generally, people do not arrive at conclusions through logical means. Certainty is a feeling, not the end result of logic. People start with the conclusions they want to arrive at, then work backwards to create a chain of rationalizations leading there.
But we did not elect our politicians to further India's interests. We did not elect them to further IBM's. We elected them to further our interests. That being said, it would be hypocritical to proclaim a love of free markets and libertarianism, while supporting protectionist policies and government intervention. Hypocritical in the extreme. However, this would not make them communists, it is much more accurate to call them hypocritical protectionists.
What would NOT be hypocritical would be to call for a citizen lead and enforced boycott of IBM. One can be a libertarian and love the free market, but still not want to do business with companies that screw over your friends and neighbors. However, I think you will find that most libertarians want license to do whatever they please, rather than desiring true freedom, which takes work, and principles.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
the entire company, middle management and upper management, is moving to india. they have an internal timeframe for this, sped up and slowed down by economic and political influences. of course they will retain a toehold here, but it will be a shell of its former self
good for india. bad for the usa. ibm has betrayed the usa
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
...let me show you it.
Towards the Singularity.
especially while u.s. employs an elaborate and all encompassing system of quotas for each country in many sectors.
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Are you surprised with real unemployment approaching 20% that citizens of the U.S. might be just a little bit upset over a company shipping jobs overseas but then claiming to be a US company when bidding for U.S. government jobs and tax breaks?
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
We are living in a culture where there is great talk of transparency (i.e. healthcare) and communication (i.e. facebook) but there is little really being done (or said). I'm not that old but I find myself 'yearning for the days' when people walked their walk and sat down face to face for some quality time with friends. Maybe I should start a facebook group...
mu
IBM is one of the few companies that remained consistently profitable during the worst recession since the Great Depression. This profitability was accomplished by replacing high-wage Americans with low-wage foreigners in India, China, etc. Seeing the writing on the wall, IBM management has decided to accelerate the reduction of the American workforce.
The shareholders love this strategy since it maximizes their return on investment. The only problem is a political one: Washington will retaliate against IBM if IBM drastically reduces its American workforce in favor of cheap overseas labor. Hence, IBM has ceased reporting the size of the American workforce.
Dirty? Disgusting? Yes. Good business strategy? Yes.
Very few people under the age of 40 know who Mao was unless they grew up in China.
ibm gets obscene special favors in the midhudson valley politically and economically on the national, state, and county, and city levels
and all the while ibm slowly moves everyone out
so its getting special treatment to TAKE AWAY jobs. how the hell does that work? i know new york politics is fucked up, but come on, this is blatant, long standing and insanely obvious
ibm is getting special treatment, and it serenely smiles while it stabs new york in the back
i have nothing for ibm management except burning hatred. i spit on ibm. as for new york politicians, they're so fucking retarded and dysfunctional, hate has no use
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Why should IBM pay,say 50K/year for a US programmer when it can get the same for 10K in India. Salaries are another expense the company must keep as low as possible.
IBM's purpose is to make money for its shareholders, which btw I presume are mostly US citizens- not charity. Welcome to Capitalism.
Did anyone expect anything else from "International Business Machines"? They are not "American Business Machines".
The headcount probably went below that on IBM computers :-)
If one hand in our hopelessly inefficient government knew what the other hand was doing, they wouldn't even have to ask IBM for these numbers, they could just use tax information from the IRS.
This is a non-story.
There is a war going on for your mind.
We're projected to have more Indian employees than American in the next year or two. We already have over 100k in India, and we're ramping up in Argentina and Brazil.
Meanwhile, internal outsourcing has been an absolute mess. Our Indian-based helpdesks are reviled, both inside IBM and by our customers who use them. Indian technical resources are likewise extremely difficult to work with, and it has nothing to do with language or timezones - they refuse to speak up (from what we're told, "it's cultural", meaning don't make an issue of it or you'll get sent to sensitivity training). A solution can be completely wrong - as in, the contract says we were supposed to start work two months in the past or numbers literally don't add up, yet they won't question blatant errors, and won't respond if you question them. Apparently questioning someone else is deeply frowned upon, and makes them next to useless as anything but strict, brainless order takers. They have no initiative whatsoever, and seemingly no capability of independent creative thought. Maybe it's "cultural", maybe it's poor training - I don't know. I do know it's not working, but all executive management sees is that they cost a fraction to hire as western workers. You get what you pay for, and all that...
None of this applies to the many Indians I work with who are based in other geographies. But for whatever reason, Indians in India are just extremely poor replacements for western workers.
as if they ever understand what they are doing either way? what a laugh.
It is their membership. Over the past year, private sector Union jobs have declined by over a million workers. Ironically the public sector has gone the other way. Unions work for collective bargaining only when the changes made are beneficial for both the worker and the employer. The 40 hour work week, child labor laws, safety standards and health benefits actually improved the productivity of workers and thus the bottom line for the employer. In this particular case, I believe IBM Alliance just wants to form an official IBM union as seed corn for the IT industry. I suspect from the issues they submit press releases on that they are not interested in the success of IBM the company and only play lip service to IBMers as employees. If they, or any traditional union represented the IT employees, it is likely the difficulties in finding mutually beneficial improvements will only speed the outsourcing. There is room for a collective bargaining counter to upper management, but it would more it would be more likely to succeed outside the traditional union infrastructure.
make the basis for tax deductions on the number of
reported US workers, no reports, no breaks.
problem fixes itself.
jr
Uh. No. We won't be dropping corporate taxes. The issue here is outsourcing; companies can find cheaper labor outside of the United State. Removing corporate taxes isn't going to reduce the cost of an employee to a company, it's going to make it more difficult for the government to obtain revenue. Think about it: if the company isn't paying taxes, and the company's employees are paying taxes in India, where does the US government get money?
~Sticky
don't even get me started
i'm frothing at the mouth enough as it is
if you send me down the path of that subject matter, i'll turn into a rabid epileptic fit. for my own mental health, i'm not going to comment on what you just wrote, as the sheer tidal wave of anger that would well up inside me would turn me into travis bickle
that the usa supreme court should so blatantly sell the principles of this country to the highest bidder... they deserve...
god, i can't write anymore. if i do, nice government agents will be knocking on my door
good god, i'm biting my hand in rage
please god, don't turn me into the unabomber
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
When the unemployed band together and buy a few senators I'm sure we will see some action on this.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
There are only money corporations. Those who run multinational organizations care nothing about whether their money comes from China, India, the USA or Mars. They have no loyalty to the USA or its people, and as the government and people of India and China will soon discover, they have no loyalty to them either. The wealthy can live anywhere. It's all one world to them. Only the sets and the local operating environments change.
The poor of the world have no enemy but the wealthy. Loyalty to "country" or political affiliation is just a con for the rubes.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brj2UkUPjCI
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
its not a problem when u.s. companies buy and fire workers in overseas countries, exploit their resources to depletion, even interfere in their laws and customs through lobbymaking, turning them upside down in every way, leave aside employment.
but its a problem when americans lose jobs to whatever reason.
I'm not sure why you think these things are mutually exclusive. Just because I complain that my friends, family and I are being screwed, doesn't mean it doesn't bother me that people in other countries are being screwed as well(which also indirectly screws me, as it devalues my position).
Why should IBM get the protection of incorporation when it would be better for their customers if the owners were held personally responsible for the company's behavior? Welcome to Corporate Welfare.
Germany is pretty much one large union. And you would claim that Germany is made up of Lazy, corrupt ppl and it is an economic failure? Yeah. Right. Well, I certain understand why you went AC.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It IS a problem when these companies continue to suckle on the taxpayers teat for both civilian and military contracts. Most of us understand that with a global economy, there will be jobs that move to countries with lower cost workforces. The real issue is that companies that hide this movement from the people, knowing full well that sales will be impacted negatively from the country that is losing the jobs. When the country is your biggest customer is also the biggest loser of jobs, you would WANT to obfuscate that data. This would be true for any company in any country.
This reminds me of Tata Group and when they outsource jobs from ‘highly’ paid Indian call center workers to lower paid workers in Indonesia and the Philippines. The exploitation of resources is a huge issue, but more often than not there is a government that is more than willing to sacrifice the locals for profits. This happened when Britain was exploiting the colonies. If the people really want to throw off the yoke of oppression, they first need to look to the corrupt governments that are allowing this to happen.
As a soon-to-be IBM ex-employee caught up in this latest round of layoffs (or "Resource Action" in IBM corporate lingo), I'm glad that IBM's total disregard for its own country's workforce is finally coming to light. IBM has been engaged in this behavior for years now, yet it has done such a good job burying the information so it gets little to no coverage by the media. In fact, according to a leaked management-level PPT posted on the Alliance@IBM site, IBM upper management is actively implementing a policy where even employees rated by their managers as solid contributors are artificially given lower ratings in subsequent years if their salary is deemed too high so that there is a pretext to push them out of the company and re-hire cheaper labor abroad. While I truly hope that the government would provide much needed intervention, I sincerely doubt any meaningful action will be taken. The best thing we can do is ensure as much media coverage as possible.
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
So, I take it you are in favor of fully recreating the Great Depression by enacting protectionist laws?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Good thing they go by their acronym anyways. Now they can be "Indian Business Machine" and don't have to spend a dime updating their logo! How convenient.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
I'm not so sure the op is "flaming" as much as expressing an impulsive response, with *attitude*.
It's neither well nor tactfully stated, but I can certainly empathize because it's one of the first thoughts that popped into my head.
And as a Canadian with many, many days spent in the US, I can unequivocally say that I *love* the USA (for whatever that means, and whatever it's worth.)
cheers,
we here in turkey are surprised that noone can use any seeds but monsanto's, an american company's today. even the seeds farmers had been keeping for generations have been banned, through bought out laws. and how it takes filthy underhanded measures to kill competition through any means possible, to the extent of going the way of modifying its own seeds to kill out any plant from the same species not genetically modified by monsanto.
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/12/14/a-global-horror-story-how-monsanto-owns-and-manipulates-the-worlds-food-supply/
http://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+horror&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
in a sidenote, some states in usa also have banned monsanto seeds, because they found out what monsanto was doing.
all because you americans have adopted a stupid, beyond logic approach to 'unregulated' business, and ended up not only being a bitch of your own corporations yourselves, but also making them a major problem plaguing the entire world.
well excuse me, but, you people in u.s. have no right to complain over ANYthing. in the end, this was the political ideology you adopted (hands off businesses so they can screw everyone, everything), and those were the people you voted for.
in your terms 'you get what you pay for'. enjoy.
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Cheap open source software gives developers from around the world competitiveness compared to American workers. Without companies ability to demand higher prices for their closed-source they're unable to pay higher wages to their employees and to remain competitive in the market place must look at cutting labor costs since they can't charge more for their software.
binghampton, to be exact
it used to be a major employer in hudson valley towns like kingston, poughkeepsie, fishkill, westchester, and new york city, and all the rust belt cities along the thruway corridor to buffalo
but this started shrinking as it went international, and accelerated as the political center of gravity within the company has shifted to bangalore. hey, it makes sense economically, and its good for india. but ibm has shafted its birthplace, and as someone from the area, so i say fuck them for the betrayal
as a historical major and influential employer, it has developed relationships with new york state and the feds for decades. therefore, the story of ibm is a shining burning example of how corporate money destroys my country
if you want to start your own ibm hate machine, and you should, start here:
http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00434
dear frothing at the mouth tea party morons:
stop listening to your demagogues who redirect your rightful anger at your government. the people robbing you blind are corporations, not your fellow poor citizens who just need healthcare. money influence in our government and our congress is destroying our nation. stop focusing your hate at your poor brothers and sisters. focus your righteous anger at the corrupting influence of corporate dollars that pay for the propaganda that fools you, all the while stabbing you in the back with a smile
stop hating your fellow man who just needs healthcare, your anger's direction is paid for by healthcare companies and their demagogues for hire
don't focus your anger on your government. focus your anger on the assholes in your government who are supposed to represent you but instead sell you out to the highest bidder. you need to reform government, not destroy it
and finally, focus your anger on the corporations themselves, who take away your job, defy your rights, and destroy your country with their special interests, all the while paying demagogue assholes to tell you that it is your poor neighbor who is to blame, because he needs healthcare and unemployment benefits, that they deny him
if this is too michael moore for you, recall that what motivated him to initially make films like roger and me was hatred for gm for destroying flint michigan. dear tea party right winger: you get poorer, and you get angrier, and they get richer, and they take your lifeblood out of this country. you want to talk patriotism? go ahead and hate michael moore for his left leaning beliefs if you want, but don't hate him because he fights for YOU: the future third world residents of the formerly great country known as the usa
know the real villain: corporations, not the government. the government is only the villain insofar as corporations have paid them to be
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Don't we have an organization in the US called the Internal Revenue Service that receives tax forms from IBM for every employee and contractor? Sounds like a pretty good data source to me.
I know this is even stupid to mention, but -- naturally -- US Govt should drop IBM off of the vendor list, because they share source code with countries that leak like buckets shot with a shotgun (or are already on a Watch List for many reasons).
It should be a CAT I finding for DISA that cannot be mitigated.
Simple as that.
At the end of 2009 IBM employed 399,409 employees worldwide.
IBM U.S. labor force numbers.
2009: 105,000
2008: 115,000
2007: 121,000
2006: 127,000
2005: 133,789
Where IBM hired in 2009:
Asia/Pacific: 13,376
CEEMEA: 3,988
Europe: 2,923
India: 18,873
Japan: 868
Latin America: 7,112
USA: 3,514
Canada: 820
Here are the detailed numbers from the IBM March 1st, 2010 layoffs (2,901 cut so far)
STG Technology Development: 24
STG Sales Support: 80
CIO Application and infrastructure: 160
Software Group WPLC: 50
Software Group Information management: 99
GBS Global Account: 98
GTS Security Systems: 41
ITD Transition, Quality & Service Mgmt: 276
ITD Application Hosting and Database: 158
ITD Service Management Delivery: 66
ITD Storage Management: 178
ITD Distributed Server Management: 318
ITD SSO (IDMM): 120
GTS North America East IMT Region Maintenance & Technical Support: 66
Sales and Distribution Headquarters: 73
ITD Complex Engagement Services: 34
Tivoli: 51
SWG Application & Integration Middleware: 119
ITD Shared Services, Security & Risk Management: 216
Sales and Distribution Global Sales: 57
Human Resources Global Administration: 124
STG Global markets: 12
CIO Client Value Tranformation: 76
Corporate Marketing & Communications: 48
CIO Operations & Enterprise Portfolio Management: 8
STG Software Development & Lab services: 39
GBS Financial Services: 24
GBS AIS: 84
GBS ASAA: 202
Total cut so far: 2901
Source: http://www.endicottalliance.org/
There, fixed that for you.
(Note to Carnivore: it's a joke.)
My blog
As a former IBM employee, I know that a lot of software development-related positions was offshored to India and Brazil. Those numbers IBM is hiding are big ones, for sure!
A lot of posters are saying "IBM should be able to hire whoever" and "IBM should not have to give any information that IBM is not legally required to give."
Okay fine. But, if IBM wants to enjoy all the lavish benefits of being a US company, such as: stimulus money, tax breaks, and preferential treatment in obtaining government contracts; then shouldn't IBM actually be a US company?
IBM is saying "the US government should be especially kind to us, because we provide all these jobs for US citizens" and "helping IBM is a good value for US taxpayers because those tax dollars come back to help the US."
But, are those assertions true? Should the US taxpayers be forced to give IBM special treatment if those assertions are not true? And how do we really know what is, or is not, true; if IBM refuses to tell us?
Seems to me that if IBM wants special treatment from the US taxpayers, then IBM needs to tell the taxpayers what is really going on.
under my grandparent comment, from actual ibmers, verifying my description of their action plan to simply leave the usa
additionally, i am a good friend of midlevel manager who used to work for ibm in the hudson valley. he actually still does work ibm. he's in bangalore
ibm is gutting itself in the usa and reconstituting itself in india
good for india. but how is that not a betrayal of the usa in your mind?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
its american attitude. they are generally detached and uncaring for many stuff, especially what their government and corporations cause in other countries. that is if they have any interest in what is happening in other countries at all, most think that u.s. is the center of the world and 'best place to be', as if scandinavian countries didnt exist..
they rant on and on about various stuff, deliver judgments about other countries and their positions, other nations, and whatnot if they have any international interest.
however when the horror their corporations and their corporate controlled governments inflicting upon the rest of the world, they get worked up.
its ironic that, they are the loudest when it comes to complaining about how their government is corporate controlled. they may be lacking the wisdom to be able to think that they wouldnt be the only ones getting exploited.
im sure most of the people reading this thread wont even know that the entire earth's food supply is cornered and any competition, hell, even local variants of entire crops have been killed to kill competition, by one of their corporations, monsanto. including their own food supply, which has its price raising because monsanto is doing that.
http://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+horror&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
it is beyond conspiracy, it is beyond imagination. it is appalling to think that such practices can even be conceived in the first place, leave aside implemented ...
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Except our massive public debt makes either significant inflation or significant taxation a real possibility here too. But good points on our schizophrenic mix of free-market and (disproportionate) protectionism.
It's old news but it should be stressed that corporations are legally obligated toward their shareholders to maximize profits, and this leads to countless sad and ironic situations like this one. Corporations are thus legally obligated to use lobbyists to bend laws, corporations are obligated to outsource jobs even if those are currently held by shareholders themselves, corporations are obligated to maximize externalities which usually wreaks havoc on the environment, etc. Hell, assuming that releasing their headcounts would hurt their business (as it would!), they are basically legally obligated not to do so.
That is totally fucked up and backwards, plain and simple. Like American drug laws, it seems inconceivable that any group of reasonable legislators would ever design this current system. We have historical quirks and abuses to thanks for this.
Hey mate, spare a sig?
the usa is a multicultural country. there's nothing wrong with multiculturalism
don't hijack this subject matter with your retarded ethnocentrism, maggot
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
WTF are you posting about? US immigration, and trade, policies are way beyond lavishly generous, they are outright insane. I openly defy you to name another industrialized nation that is more generous.
For the most part, other nations complaining about US immigration and trade policies is like Al-Qaeda complaining about terrorism.
590 madison avenue will always be well-staffed, but only 590 madison avenue
they will of course all disappear like a fart in the wind should the tax code stop coddling the ultrarich
hamilton bermuda or the cayman islands then
the middle class of the usa is becoming an endangered species, and, perplexingly, some of those soon to be former middle class support policies that enable their own doom
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
There is an easy solution to this, and it is easier said than done. Stop working for multi-national corporations. Start your own business, work for smaller local businesses or universities, and only do business with other like-minded individuals. Companies like IBM are able to do this only because the best and the brightest in the US allow them too. This is especially true in the world of IT where the startup costs are so low that if every developer, syadmin, dba, etc decided they were going to start their own companies and do business with each other exclusively we could. If IT ends up like manufacturing in 20 years we have no one to blame but ourselves we have way more power and formal education than factory workers ever had.
I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended
--A wise old fart named SC0RN
Honestly, I have mixed feelings about this. IBM is a huge tech giant, similar to Oracle or maybe even HP. They produce rock-stable, less-than-exciting products that run the back end of most businesses. Microsott is even heading this direction. The problem is, when you get that huge and have shareholders/executives constantly demanding lower costs, eventually the offshoring lever gets pulled. It's awful that these large companies are contributing to unemployment in the process, but do you really think they can be stopped?
I'd call myself left of center, and would support measures to at least discourage companies from moving jobs offshore. This wouldn't be appropriate in most cases, but when you have 300 million people competing against a huge labor pool that costs 90% less, the stabilizers need to be kicked on. However, I know it's not realistic. Why? Most IT people I know are incredibly conservative/Libertarian/Ayn Rand followers. Mention a union, professional organization, or other stabilizer to these people, and most go off into a Fox News-style tirade about socialism or how unions are evil and corrupt.
If our own profession doesn't stand up for itself, we can't expect anyone else to. (My opinion: People need to get out of this "rugged individualism/entrepreneurial" fantasy that they seem to have. You're not a superstar, you're not going to start a business and become an overnight billionaire, and you're never going to be one of the outsized celebrities or business tycoons that you celebrate. It just isn't a realistic dream to base your life around. But that's my opinion.)
Another problem is this - the computing and IT workforce has still not decided on a direction. Do we want to be a profession? If so, then we need to start standardizing education of new members, and do a better job at defining fundamentals of development, systems engineering, etc. Do we want to be a skilled trade? If so, then we need to set up an apprenticeship-style training system that gives new recruits a decent broad background, consider a union ^Ubargaining unit ^U^Upolitical influence committee and think about a real career ladder that doesn't end at age 40. Or, do we want to be a branch of traditional engineering? That's almost like a profession - and I'm all for the idea of people being responsible for their work like PEs are.
I would definintely go for the traditional-engineering or profession route, but there's another problem. Skill sets in IT vary wildly. I've worked with absolute geniuses and...umm...less-than-geniuses. It drives me nuts when less-than-geniuses get hired as contractors for triple my salary and I wind up having to tell them how to solve something. Since there's no set way to validate skills, people can fake their way through interviews and wind up on staff causing havoc while they learn. Same goes in reverse...someone who's really smart but bad at selling themselves can wind up not getting a job, or a much lower salary than they're entitled to.
Anyway, back to the offshoring problem. Everyone's still in love with cheap goods and cheap labor, and hasn't learned much from the recent economic downturn. People are still spending way too much, even though the contraction in the credit markets has helped a lot. So we have a choice - either cut back the spending so we don't have to demand raises of our already-high salaries, or find some way to differentiate ourselves. That's never going to happen - too many IT problems get buried by lower-level managers before the decision makers ever see them.
Dunno, when your CIA goes out and support dictators, finance coups in foreign countries, support assassinations and fuck other countries up through war for your own business interests, people tend to get pissed off.
Not to mention obvious hypocrisy, double standards in foreign policy, and forcing smaller countries into economic submission through the threat of military action, people tend to get pissed off more.
I for one, welcome everybody to take advantage of america as much as possible. You reap what you sow.
So America must become Third World, or lose all our jobs to the Third World and become itself Third World anyway? Whatever have we done to deserve such an evil ruling elite?
i have no qualms with anything about nationalities at all. mine or others. i have lived long enough and lived through enough to be able to learn that identities, names, statuses, nationalities and so on does not matter, but the very specific character of any individual himself/herself. i dont get offended by shit.
and in addition, if a blanket majority of a population or, say, sample set, exhibits the same behavior, wouldnt it be logical to say that 'this sample set behaves this way' ? i mean, if it is otherwise, we need to drop generic names for stuff - not every house is the same, they wildly vary, not every fish is the same, they wildly vary. but yet, we use 'house' and 'fish' to identify general characteristics.
i, for one, exonerate anyone when they use blanket statements regarding my society or my group, IF my society/group exhibits the particular characteristic in general. its bare logic.
what i told up to this point is not my 'revenge'. its an outburst of emotion and truth. there are some issues in life that you cannot be all cool and detached about, and put it in politically correct ways. and you shouldnt either, because it takes away a lot from the seriousness of the situation. i mean, this is about our fucking food. ALL of us. not only turks, not only italians, not only americans. there can be no politics, views or opinions if we all have to feed from the hand of the same corporation. this is beyond logic.
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The real unemployment rate, which measures the number of people who are looking for jobs but can't find jobs, is under 10%.
Your claim that it is "approaching 20%" is a lie.
And no, you can't just make up your own definitions of words. I know this is the Internet, but try to have some integrity, Maxo-Texas.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
basically what you are saying is that u.s., even the world will be better off if mayan end of the world thing comes at 2012.
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its globalization. america has to come to terms with the age of globalization, especially after forcing many countries to come to terms with it itself.
No we don't. It's just embarrassing after we shoved it down other peoples' throats.
Personally, I'm for globalization over the long term. I'd be delighted if the average salary and wealth of India was on par with the US. What I don't like is management making a quick buck with salary arbitrage. It's not fair to US workers to stick them with the costs of changing the rules overnight.
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He has nothing of substance to say other than bang on some outsourcing drum that makes him look good. Kind of like Michelle Malkin.
For some of us it was our generation. And we tried, we really tried to warn you. Then for years we kept getting told by the white collar workers that it was all our fault that the manufacturing jobs were shifting away. We kept trying to tell you guys that your turn would come next, because we looked at the situation, hell we were living the situation so it was easy to see, that the big increases were going to wall street, that's where the massive skim was going, but you refused to listen. You believed the big liars instead. Because those crooks are "white collar" too, so you automatically identify with them, so you believed those guys instead of the older generation blue collars who tried to tell you the straight shit.
Even now, with all the emphasis on the economy and every single possible clue you need to see what is really going on..crickets. Mass denial. The white collars generic "you" will not ever understand that your own government and big economic leaders have been hell bent on stealing everything, all of it, yes even from you, then getting the theft victims, starting to include you now, to blame each other instead of the real crooks.
Enjoy the big bucks "you" might still be getting now, because it won't last long. The same globalists who ripped us off and then shifted the blame are doing it to you now, but you'll wait and do nothing as one by one by one by one you are picked off, sniped, until there is just one little special snowflake left who melts away whimpering, wondering what happened.
And you'll never blame the correct people, because you got suckered completely into believing their globalism and stock market bullshit that you could get something for nothing forever, and that you were somehow special and exempt from the great global wage arbitrage scam because you are "white collar", and you won't notice that global wage arbitrage is never accompanied with global cost of living reductions in places that lose mass numbers of jobs. You see that's the con, they claim that costs of living will go down, and more jobs will just magically appear, just spring out of the ether, but they don't, and you have had an entire generation and a half to see that, but you still aren't seeing it.
That's the lie they use to sell that con, and it is very effective so far, because they gave you credit and "stock" numbers instead of real wage increases. You can't even tell those things apart, you believe those crooks that they are the same thing.
People don't pick up on it until they lose their job..and look for work..and look for work. And a year later are still looking for work and they are now completely broke and wondering when the unemployment checks will stop. But by then they finally have taken the time to take a real look at the situation and figure things out better, but it is too late then to do anything about it to help yourself.
And the cost of living never adjusts down to deal with the lost wages and jobs, that stays the same or goes higher, because those thieves are never satisfied and they want it all and they 100% own government and keep the laws in their favor, always. Oh, they let you "vote", and you keep voting for one of the two hand picked for you candidates at the top, believing this is your "choice", or one of the two hand picked for you candidates for lesser than the top job. And the cycle continues and you keep wondering why.
Buddy of mine who's a 16-year vet of the Atlanta IBM office just got his layoff notice. Last day is March 31.
It's purely down to investment to profits. As long as the US government allows the visa for work and the off-shoring of jobs, this will continue. Think back to Clinton's NAFTA, etc. We've been steadily losing jobs since the 90's. They've opened a can of worms and have yet to figure out how to manage.
The rest of the world sees us as isolationist if you take the jobs and go pure American only. It's a two-edged sword. Can't have it both ways. American workers will have to compete but ultimately the cry to standardize the world on one monetary system, same pay rate (try to figure that out with so many varying economies and cheap labor rules), etc.
It will get much worse before it gets any better.
All those employees who file their taxes with IBM's EID, compare to historical growth rates and IBMs hiring trends versus the current state of the economy, and I bet you could estimate it well enough for public policy purposes. Anyone want to start a data-mining operation contracting to the government to find this information for them? :)
Allow those that are being laid off to throw together some companies and then have them bid on previous held IBM jobs. Since the jobs are being exported to nations that rig their money against the US, then if IBM is less than 1/rate of whatever the new companies bid, then IBM gets it. OTHERWISE, the lowest bidder amongst the start-ups get it.
Sam is cutting lose some great ppl with lots of knowledge and ideas. Lets take advantage of them. OTH, IBM can continue support regimes like 1940 Germany and 2009 China.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
and demagogues tell them its the government's fault
the government is here to protect the people. the government is an extension of their will. the real enemy are the completely unpatriotic corporations that warp the government to represent them instead, at the expense of the people
the real battle should be between the people and the corporations over who owns the government. the corrosive influence of corporate dollars on the government that enrich entrenched corporate powers at the expense of the people is the real problem
but instead, the professional propaganda outlets successfully redirect the people's anger against the very edifice which is their only tool against corporations: their own government. and so the government remains squarely in the hands of corporations, because the people don't fight OVER the government, they fight AGAINST the government
and so they wind up only destroying themselves: middle class america, the future poor america
corporations have successfully robbed and impoverished the middle class in the usa, and successfully convinced them to defang and turn hostile against the only tool they have against corporations: their own government. and then the corporations leave, for greener pastures to rape abroad, their devastation of the usa nearing fulmination
its an insane betrayal against the self that makes no sense, for reasons beyond my understanding: that the people should blame THEIR government for what corporations do. but it works, probably because the corporations have enough cash to pay for this war against the american people
you hear it in the healthcare industry funded propaganda on tv: they frame the issue in terms of increased taxes and loss of decision making. as if a profit making healthcare corporation has your better interest than your own government! as if the money you pay them for shoddy healthcare is cheaper than the money you would pay to a single payer system with pricing power!
i am so perplexed: why are so many americans so hellbent on making they get shoddy healthcare FROM A HEALTHCARE COMPANY rather than their own government!? its simply amazing, how wound up and fooled some americans have become. its the doom of this country
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
And why should they release their headcount unless other companies do the same?
Beause those other companies are probably not getting stimulus dollars, complements of the US taxpayer.
Those stimulus dollare are being paid by US tax payers because those dollars are supposed to help US taxpayers. What IBM does not want the US tax payers to know is: those dollars are actually going to India.
its globalization. america has to come to terms with the age of globalization, especially after forcing many countries to come to terms with it itself.
No we don't. It's just embarrassing after we shoved it down other peoples' throats.
"No we don't" or "No I won't" ? You can personally decide to live in denial for as long as you wish of course... don't pretend you speak for the rest of us !!
It's funny how all these companies that are laying of U.S. workers talk about globalization. As a shareholder in many companies, I wonder why they don't outsource the Executive jobs? I mean why should I pay some U.S. CEO a billion dollars, when I can pay a similarly talented, if not more talented individual, from anywhere else in the world a million dollars to do the same job. People want globalization and capitalism for others, and they want protectionism and socialism for themselves. When they start outsourcing executive jobs and quit giving corporate America bailouts, I'll believe that everybody wants globalization and capitalism. Furthermore as a U.S. taxpayer, I have no problem with IBM offshoring every single last one of their jobs, just don't come to my government asking for business when you do. In fact feel free to move to these other countries that are so great for business, good riddance!
You've got it backwards.
I was never for overnight trade liberalization, and that includes *before* it was white collar jobs being lost. So you don't have any right to lump me in with the people who thought it was a great idea.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
monsanto has more money than turkey itself, and it can easily buy any politician.
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The federal government is not very big on IBM hardware. Sun SPARC and PC servers are the big players.
No thanks, I'd rather not have the IRS become an information clearinghouse for the rest of Uncle Sam (and all those pesky TLAs).
Though it is kind of "funny" when you think about all the other government groups (like the Census Bureau) which collect information already held by the IRS.
for the majority of those 100 years, ibm was an american company. of course they had field offices from the start, but the brains and brawn was american
and there's nothing wrong with going international, and there's nothing wrong with having international staff. but there's something wrong with betraying your roots as completely as ibm is now, all the while being coddled by the government of the people they are shafting
i mean the I in IHOP stands for "international" too, but that's not a statement of fact, its just good marketing (what exactly is supposed to be appealing about international pancakes, i don't know, but it obviously works). plenty of two bit outfits of 3 or 4 guys in pasadena or des moines or paramus put "international" in their company name out of aspiration. stop being dazzled by the shiny plastic
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Willing to take that risk, in the name of science, yes.
If a market is free, anyone can decide not to do business with anyone else, for any reason. Why should anyone give a rat's ass about 'market efficiency' if said efficiency benefits someone else? It is simply amazing to me that you will so vocally defend companies acting in out of self interest, from individuals acting out of their own self interest. Why do you value the self interest of certain groups of people (corporations) over other groups (boycotters)?
You may hate it, but people will always band together into groups to protect their interests, with or without a government. In a true lasseiz faire capitalist society, people will create their own social structures to protect their interests, there will be countless advocacy and interest groups that will use all the tools at their disposal, including boycotts, public pressure, and educational campaigns, to punish companies that do not perform as the members wish.
You've provided a sterling example of why I dislike most libertarians. You don't want freedom, you want license to do whatever you please, for yourself, and everyone else should shut the fuck up and do what they are told. It is absolutely hypocrisy of the worst sort. It is also elitist, supports tyranny and encourages heirarchy.
In short, you are a statist. You just think corporations should BE the state.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
the government is supposed to be an extension of your will. whatever rules they have and enforcement is done is done in your name. through your representatives, you can make those rules and those enforcers work for you
but to the extent the government makes rules against your interests, or to the extent enforcers don't work for you, is directly due to the extent of corporations warping governments to serve their interests instead. corporations have no loyalty to you or your government or your country
and somehow they have convinced you to fight not them, but to fight the only tool you have to use against them: your own government
in the way you think about YOUR government, is encapsulated the downfall of this country
fight FOR your government AGAINST corporations. don't fight AGAINST your government FOR corporations
they've convinced you to stab yourself
got it, you deluded fool?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I have a background in economics as well as IT and I understand how it helps you and in the long run helps us in the US.
I do have a problem with IBM lying and saying they moved to India because they were unable to find "qualified Americans". That is what IBM said in the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago and I'm having a problem finding it. The same goes for Intel and any other company that uses the "can't find qualified Americans" excuse.
That's what is really pissing me off. It was a slap in the face and it made me waste precious time on a dead end career.
you are not massively propagandized
you've independently arrived at a state of abject stupidity all by yourself
"Oh, you Marxists and your accusations..."
Marxist? LOL
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If this data is so critical, it's not like the US government doesn't have it. How do you know this?
You know those things called W-2 tax forms? Remember ... the US government gets a copy of those which has the employer ID on it. The data is there.
So if the US government would like a nice break down of all employers and employees .. there ya go. Crunch away on the IRS data base.
Sure with what money... their unemployment or welfare checks?
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
i think that richard marx is one of the most underappreciated 1980s soft rock acts in the history of mankind
his softly gravelly voice and his touching soulful lyrics have captivated me since a young age
he tugs at my heartstrings whenever i hear his silky refrains, and i can hide my marxist passions no longer, whatever the cost to my self-image!
i am marxist!
(sob)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I see what you did there.
Actually, that puts a lot of world history into perspective.
DATABASE WOW WOW
they would eventually corrupt those in power with money. it would only take a certain amount of money and accompanying threats.
leave even that, the very legal proceedings of an election campaign requires money, so in order to be able to get on mass media and spend the necessary advertising budget, the candidates NEED money. therefore, those who have the money call the shots in the end, regardless of whether you visualise that they dont have any more power than you, or not.
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IBM's 'Smarter Planet' BS is bullshit. I worked for them for several months as a contractor in a callcenter they're building and staffing with folks paid 33% of what previous employees were doing the same jobs. They'd be able to do more with less if they didn't rely on cobol systems that were 30+ years old that can't intercommunicate at all, thus requiring manpower that they're now shifting from well-paid workers to people who are just glad to have a job that's not bagging groceries.
I was reminded of the fall of the Empire in Asimov's foundation. They talk about being at the height of their innovation but they've been rotting from the inside for decades.
u2 is no more real than cpi measures real inflation.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work. It was modified -- a key change was that when your unemployment benefits are lost- voila, you are no longer unemployed! If you stop actively searching for a job because none are availabe... voila! You are not unemployed. It's the magic "U2" number.
u6 is real unemployment.
If you really have no clue about the games they are playing with u2 and cpi, you need to read up.
cpi grossly understands inflation because that saves the government from increasing cola related items (like social security).
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I would like there to be transparency w/a company receiving US taxpayer $ from the stimulus package. Reference this news: http://www.physorg.com/news182250392.html
I agree, we need to accept it is happening, and adjust our strategies to overcome it so we can remain strong and on top.
You didn't mean 'accepting it' to also mean laying down and taking, did you??
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
there is no 'strategy' in regard to it. each and every individual will be evaluated by their own merits, experience and prowess, and will his/her job and his/her salary, position in regard to his/her individual qualities and global market rates.
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You do realize that one of the biggest parts of IBM right now is it's Global Services branch and IBM operates as the worlds largest consulting firm in numbers of consultants? Services need to be located where they operate. There are a lot of opportunities for consulting in other countries so there are branches in those companies.
There are also consulting branches in the USA. You go where the client is. It's not "outsourcing". If there is a country with more need for consultants why would it be considered outsourcing that you operate with more consultants in that location?
This is just silly. They are likely hiding the numbers because people will freak out and feel "betrayed" that more and more employees are operating overseas.
*facepalm*
Yes, you're right. My problems is that I learned about economics in a university rather than on the Internet.
Call underemployment "underemployment" or "U6". Don't call it "unemployment." That would make you look stupid. Again.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, and we know how that worked out. Scary enough for you?
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
for refah, and its reincarnation saadet is long gone, and turkey is being islamicized by the current islamist akp in power, ironically with european union support. in 10 to 20 years you will find that the percentage of islamists who hate europe and only want to join europe to conquer it from 'within' will go from 20% to 50% at this rate.
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As the price of seeds go up people will plant alternatives.
Its better than communism which is what you describe and having the government run things. The market is flawless and seeds from other plants can be used. Eventually consumers will be upset and ban Monsanto if it really is so bad. Let the market run things and problems will go away.
They are without a doubt, the worst tech (if not the worst overall) company out there. Mis-managed and without a care for the US worker. I'm not surprised they would do this, I'm sure the pressure on them from outside influences, including the US gov't, was making their green-lined pockets "feel" lighter. I was outsourced to IBM so I didn't have much choice at the time. They offshored 85% of my team to Argentina, and at that point I left. Never buy an IBM product if you can help it.
I suppose you have to attack like that to boost your ego, "Lord" ender. No skin off my back.
Using some specialized term that 99% of the population wouldn't use only shows naive ivory tower elitism.
U6 is what was called "UN"employment before the government started inventing terms to hide the truth.
I've never heard a single person say they were "underemployed" when they couldn't find a job.
And that certainly didn't change when their unemployment benefits ran out.
Then they would just say, "I'm unemployed. And now have have no benefits. I'm screwed."
Not going to bother feeding the troll any more.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
The best thing any person or corporation can do is hide information from the government. Intrusive government requires information to operate, and every time you make that information more difficult or impossible to obtain, you add just a little more distance between yourself and tyranny.
C'mon people, wake up. If your employer didn't report what it paid you, how could an income tax be imposed?
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
To the tune of Jingle Bells
Driving us insane
With pay cuts and RA's
To the bank he goes
Squealing all the way!
Playing with our lives
Leaving tears and blight
Wouldn't it be loads of fun
to string him up tonight?
Chorus:
Oh! Oinker Sam!, Oinker Sam!
How do you sleep at night?
Why do I ask?
A sociopath
Cares for no one but himself
Oinker Sam!, Oinker Sam!
IBM is heading south
Wouldn't he look great
With his head on a plate
And an apple in his mouth!
Working overtime
For this ungrateful swine
What's a little heart attack
If it helps the bottom line?
No one to lend a hand
My colleagues all were canned
Our SLA's have gone tits up
Say thanks to Oinker Sam!
"The people unworthy of minimum wage will be unemployed."
The people unworthy of minimum wage (a very small percentage I'd wager) are probably unable to perform any productive work and thus their unemployment is inevitable no matter how little they are paid.
In my youth I held several minimum wage jobs and there was absolutely no attempt to evaluate my worthiness.
The talented folks jettisoned by IBM are still here, still available, still paying taxes, still buying your products. Perhaps the right response is to engage them, not IBM. http://xibmr.blogspot.com/2010/03/wheres-my-consultant.html