Europe found Microsoft guilty of anti-trust violations and made Microsoft release a version of Windows without Media Player, to which they complied. The EU also made Microsoft pay a half-billion dollar fine, which hurts no matter who you are. They have had to pay further fines as the EU has declared Microsoft hasn't done enough for interoperability, and forced Microsoft to release source code.
It sure seems to me that the EU has been hitting Microsoft pretty hard.
TiVo wasn't really a loophole as the license was never intended in its original form to cover situations like that.
Where in the GPLv2 is there any indication that companies have to give you full access to every bit of hardware you purchase, just because it features GPL software?
The TiVo clause in GPLv3 is new precisely because the GPLv2 doesn't cover it. And for what it is worth, while I am the sort who would enjoy something like TiVo hacking, I get DVR service through my cable company for $5 a month, and I'm happy to pay it. Renting a HDTV box is $10, or getting a DVR-HDTV box is $15, and the extra five covers renting the hardware and the service.
Companies are entitled to make money off their products. Most of the people who are upset at TiVo want the ability to reap the benefits of official TiVo hardware without paying for the service. I'd be a liar and a hypocrite if I claimed I paid for everything I've ever downloaded in my life, but as I get older, I certainly feel more of an obligation to pay for the products and services I receive. I have considerably less sympathy for people complaining they can't pirate a service, and feel the company legally is obligated to help them steal such service.
The entire business model of a product like TiVo is selling the hardware with little room for profit, hoping to make their money on the service. And I believe they should be entitled to do just that if they choose. If you don't like that model, then don't buy TiVo. You have plenty of alternatives.
If you really want free "TiVo", then setup a MythTV box. There you go.
Gates has only ever given as much money away as it was beneficial for him to do so for tax purposes. That does not make him a philanthropist, nor worth to by Man of the Year. But many mistakenly see the wealth of the Gates Foundation and give him singular credit.
Buffet has always been both a decent and intelligent man. Much of the world attempts to follow in his footsteps. So I was quite disappointed when he gave the bulk of his wealth to the Gates Foundation.
I read a report saying that was just a rumor that Sony denied. Again, the 20 gig model still shows as available online.
The "10 to 1 demand" for the 60 gig model was artificial however. They didn't make hardly any 20 gig models, and stores only seemed to carry the 60 gig model so you had no choice unless you ordered online and paid for shipping.
Yet a $100 doesn't justify 40 gigs of storage, especially when you can just add a new HDD yourself. Once HDMI moved to the low end model, there really was no reason to buy the $600 version.
Yet a recent study (that I believe was posted here in Slashdot) said most people couldn't tell the difference between $400 headphones and $5 ones from listening to them.
I get tons of compliments on how good my sound-setup sounds.
Given that lossless formats have a good chunk of their size coming from areas beyond the capability for the human ear to perceive, I'm not sure why everyone is so down on lossy formats.
I was walking through Best Buy and immediately stopped and said, "man this TV looks great!"
Then I looked and saw it was playing a BluRay movie. I'll never understand why people attempt to sell these really expensive TVs and in the stores generally just hook up a a standard cable signal. If you want to show off what the TV is capable, pump some HD content into it at the store.
Maybe 'round Christmas time there will be a decent price break on the PS3, and if the $500 version comes down to $400 I'll bite.
Very true. Those drivers also don't just magically disappear.
Microsoft doesn't keep a repository of all Windows drivers (though I hear all signed Vista drivers will be available via update.microsoft.com eventually)
I have a nifty flightstick with motion sensing that I can move in the air (like a Wii, but there is no bar to sense it, it is all internal). Too bad the company that made it went under and there are no drivers for it online. But with Linux, once a driver goes in the kernel source, it pretty much stays there, so you don't have to hunt it down.
I like good sound, and I have decent surround setups for both of my TVs and my computer. However, I'm not a huge stickler. I can't tell the difference between say a 128kb MP3 and the original lossless WAV file.
It really is. Before it even launched, it was dead. Most of the studios backed BluRay, and it was going to be in the PS3, which whether you care for the PS3 or not, provided a larger installed base almost overnight.
Not only is BlockBuster no longer ordering HD-DVD, but many large retailers are canceling all orders of HD-DVD.
Dead. Dead. Dead.
(Note this doesn't mean the BluRay is guaranteed success, but simply that the HD-DVD is dead)
Wasn't there a Slashdot story recently proclaiming the CD to be obsolete?
Even though digital music sales are up, for many people, the CD is still the way you carry and purchase music.
People came up with formats like DVD-Audio, but what is the point of that? A CD isn't too large to be cumbersome, and it holds enough data for an album. In fact, if you burn MP3's to the disc, you can hold tons of albums on it.
It is cheap, burns fast, and is still used for data and software installs.
It has been a very resilient medium, and given how long floppy-drives stuck around (far, far too long) I don't see CD's disappearing anytime soon.
There are "beter" alternatives, but it is so universal, it is here to stay.
Here is the kicker. Gates isn't giving his money away. A very small portion of his wealth (proportionally much smaller than other's charitable donations) are going to the Gates Foundation. And 95% of the Gates Foundation is in investments for companies making more money. Most of the wealth in the Gates Foundation comes from Warren Buffet, who was once the world's richest man.
He lives here in Omaha, NE and is a very frugal, simple man who from time to time can even be seen mowing his own lawn. Buffet always said he was doing to donate the bulk of his wealth and not burden his children with the responsibility it bears. His kids aren't pampered rich kids who ever assumed they would inherit anything. I've met both Peter and Susy Buffet, and not only do they make their own way in the world, they've both been very socially responsible to use their fame to help raise money for charity.
Gates was named Man of the Year and gets all the credit for good deeds he isn't doing.
And for the record, Gates repeatedly said for years he did not believe in charity and refused to donate much of anything. When he was forced to make small donations for tax purposes, he donated Microsoft software and computers to schools, again an act that is self-serving. Even Philly's much-hyped all technology school that Microsoft gets credit for was paid for in full by Philly. Neither Gates nor Microsoft donated a dime.
- Integrity is always nice! - ACID - InnoDB seems to provide that for me. I've never lost data on MySQL. - Stored Procs - We use these at work on our insanely complex MSSQL setups that I loathe, but I don't know that I'll ever have use for them on my server, and I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed this was a standard SQL feature. MySQL doesn't support stored procs? - Triggers - I'm not sure what these are.
I'll Google some PosgreSQL vs MySQL comparisons and benchmarks.
I imagine a meta-package like this is catering to the average user who just wants a common setup easy to just drop in and go. MySQL is more commonly used, and thusly it seems the logical choice for such a meta-package.
Though I'm looking to move off a web-host and build a server out of my house. Everyone keeps saying PostgreSQL is better. Why? For my average use, what benefits will it offer me?
If I throw some common PHP/SQL stuff on there, will it run faster (Gallery2, LotGD, phpbb3, etc)?
Color me stupid here, but isn't Apache the de facto standard that most everyone uses?
Some may argue that better alternatives exist (of which I'm not really aware) but since Apache is so popular and common place, wouldn't it seem the logical piece of this meta-package?
People who want specific packages for specific reasons are going to set up their own environment. For a pre-setup environment, shouldn't you shoot for the common setup?
That is a piss-poor analogy. Notepad and OpenOffice aren't in the same league and don't do the same things.
MySQL and MSSQL are both SQL servers.
Both offer the same functionality.
No wait, MSSQL offers me 10 different ways to pull up the same data, offers an unnecessarily complex interface, and performs horribly.
Both can be extended with a series of clients. Quite frankly, having used both extensively, I am quite content to use MySQL and PHPMyAdmin, though I will continue to be forced to used MSSQL at work.
All very good points, but I feel the need to clarify. Linux supports more hardware than anyone because it supports embedded hardware, all kinds of architecture, tons of legacy stuff, etc.
Windows XP supports most of the hardware on the market today, because vendors write XP drivers first and foremost.
Despite the mammoth library of Linux drivers, there is some work to be done in improving drivers for new devices. For instance my wife has a Broadcom 43xx series wireless card built into her HP laptop, and even though there is a driver right in the kernel for it, it flat-out wouldn't work. Most people suggested using ndiswrapper to use the Windows drivers. Someone suggested bc43xx-fwcutter firmware, or something like that which got it to work, but she drops connection constantly.
I use SQL server everyday. I have to write custom functions in MS SQL Server to pump into Crystal Reports, and I loathe it.
MS SQL Server sucks for the following three reasons, among many others:
1 - MySQL is more ANSI SQL compliant and MS has no respect for standards. 2 - MySQL can run on multiple platforms and doesn't require a GUI. When you have to shell out tens of thousands of dollars for a server (if not hundreds of thousands of dollars) it is important to note that MS SQL will only run on Windows, on an x86 architecture and is going to cost you considerably more money and have worse performance. A cheap Linux server on the architecture of your choice will destroy that Windows server in performance and cost less money. 3 - Even when running on the same hardware and OS, MySQL destroys MSSQL in performance. I mean, kicks MSSQL's teeth in.
Why Virtual PC? It beats VMWare Player and is the same price, i.e. free.
I'll forgive you. You must not read Slashdot, or you would have seen this article.
"IT managers gathered in New York City earlier this week to get advice from experts on when, why, and how to virtualize their server environments. The takeaway from the conference: if you want to run an enterprise-class virtualization platform in production today, stick with VMware."
And in the Linux world, you're seeing all kinds of nifty new virtualization technologies as well. Don't count out Xen.
And some of us prefer IE to other browsers.
You are entitled to your opinion sir, but I'm guessing the vast majority of the Slashdot crowd will disagree with you. In fact, I think most web designers will disagree with you. You don't see tons of websites dedicated to saying exactly how much Firefox is the worst piece of software ever created, but there and tons, and tons of such sites dedicated to explaining exactly how horrible IE is. The moment you attempt to tell me that IE is a good piece of software, you lose all credibility with me and come across as a troll. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and we'll continue.
Lastly if XP and 2000 sucked at one point, but they were fixed, for free, then they shouldn't be included. OS X sucked and then you got charged for 10.1, bitch about that.
Well, the parent asked for a list of Microsoft products, so mentioning OS X really has no place in the discussion. I specified 2000 pre-SP2 and XP pre-SP1 because I am not this huge hater. I dislike Microsoft as a company, and most of their products. But often I defend XP as being a pretty good OS in the end. I prefer XP with SP1, and not SP2 personally. SP2 added nag screens and bloat without really fixing security problems so much. However, when XP first launched, it broke apps, broke drivers, ran slow, and was extremely buggy. SP1 improved the OS in all those areas.
Also how do you knock a free email service? What did any other free service do that was so much better.
Because Hotmail is absolutely horrid. Slow, insecure, and they sell your email address out so you get spam. They try to sign you up for various newsletters, tons of people have complained about entire accounts and all their email magically vanishing, slow service, and not very feature rich. GMail destroys Hotmail. The new Yahoo-beta destroys Hotmail. Hell, SquirrelMail destroys Hotmail. Note, defending IE and now Hotmail? You have to be kidding me, right?
Same with Messenger, what does anyone else do that takes it out back behind the shed and beats it with a stick?
I would urge you to look at Gaim/Pidgin, Kopete, Trillian, etc. How about the fact that Messenger would put itself back in the startup group repeatedly when it was removed? That alone makes it crappy and annoying software. What about the fact that you could be blasted with unsolicited spam via Messenger, and many people had no way or clue to get rid of it? So you're defending IE, Hotmail, and Messenger, three of the most hated things on the planet. Are you sure you're not trolling.
Works may suck but how many options were there for you if you didn't want to spend a ton of money on an office suite 10 years ago? Or even 5? Works and...? And oo.o wasn't really an option unless you had high speed, or wanted to spend $40 on a cd version of free software. Plus you had to go to compusa or some other store full of untrained morons who either don't know what you're looking for or spend the whole time trying to talk you into ms office (quick rant, I went into a compusa to buy a tv, pre massive shutdown, and I had to tell the guy 5 times I didn't want the extended warranty, I finally had to tell him that if he didn't shut the fuck up I was going
Slashdot Mirror
Europe found Microsoft guilty of anti-trust violations and made Microsoft release a version of Windows without Media Player, to which they complied. The EU also made Microsoft pay a half-billion dollar fine, which hurts no matter who you are. They have had to pay further fines as the EU has declared Microsoft hasn't done enough for interoperability, and forced Microsoft to release source code.
It sure seems to me that the EU has been hitting Microsoft pretty hard.
TiVo wasn't really a loophole as the license was never intended in its original form to cover situations like that.
Where in the GPLv2 is there any indication that companies have to give you full access to every bit of hardware you purchase, just because it features GPL software?
The TiVo clause in GPLv3 is new precisely because the GPLv2 doesn't cover it. And for what it is worth, while I am the sort who would enjoy something like TiVo hacking, I get DVR service through my cable company for $5 a month, and I'm happy to pay it. Renting a HDTV box is $10, or getting a DVR-HDTV box is $15, and the extra five covers renting the hardware and the service.
Companies are entitled to make money off their products. Most of the people who are upset at TiVo want the ability to reap the benefits of official TiVo hardware without paying for the service. I'd be a liar and a hypocrite if I claimed I paid for everything I've ever downloaded in my life, but as I get older, I certainly feel more of an obligation to pay for the products and services I receive. I have considerably less sympathy for people complaining they can't pirate a service, and feel the company legally is obligated to help them steal such service.
The entire business model of a product like TiVo is selling the hardware with little room for profit, hoping to make their money on the service. And I believe they should be entitled to do just that if they choose. If you don't like that model, then don't buy TiVo. You have plenty of alternatives.
If you really want free "TiVo", then setup a MythTV box. There you go.
Gates has only ever given as much money away as it was beneficial for him to do so for tax purposes. That does not make him a philanthropist, nor worth to by Man of the Year. But many mistakenly see the wealth of the Gates Foundation and give him singular credit.
Buffet has always been both a decent and intelligent man. Much of the world attempts to follow in his footsteps. So I was quite disappointed when he gave the bulk of his wealth to the Gates Foundation.
I read a report saying that was just a rumor that Sony denied. Again, the 20 gig model still shows as available online.
The "10 to 1 demand" for the 60 gig model was artificial however. They didn't make hardly any 20 gig models, and stores only seemed to carry the 60 gig model so you had no choice unless you ordered online and paid for shipping.
Yet a $100 doesn't justify 40 gigs of storage, especially when you can just add a new HDD yourself. Once HDMI moved to the low end model, there really was no reason to buy the $600 version.
Yet a recent study (that I believe was posted here in Slashdot) said most people couldn't tell the difference between $400 headphones and $5 ones from listening to them.
I get tons of compliments on how good my sound-setup sounds.
Given that lossless formats have a good chunk of their size coming from areas beyond the capability for the human ear to perceive, I'm not sure why everyone is so down on lossy formats.
If nothing else, it was released with 6.1 sound for the Special Editions and all the DVDs have 6.1 sound.
According to About.com, Star Wars was one of the first films to ever receive the Dolby Surround treatment in the mid 70's.
I was walking through Best Buy and immediately stopped and said, "man this TV looks great!"
Then I looked and saw it was playing a BluRay movie. I'll never understand why people attempt to sell these really expensive TVs and in the stores generally just hook up a a standard cable signal. If you want to show off what the TV is capable, pump some HD content into it at the store.
Maybe 'round Christmas time there will be a decent price break on the PS3, and if the $500 version comes down to $400 I'll bite.
Very true. Those drivers also don't just magically disappear.
Microsoft doesn't keep a repository of all Windows drivers (though I hear all signed Vista drivers will be available via update.microsoft.com eventually)
I have a nifty flightstick with motion sensing that I can move in the air (like a Wii, but there is no bar to sense it, it is all internal). Too bad the company that made it went under and there are no drivers for it online. But with Linux, once a driver goes in the kernel source, it pretty much stays there, so you don't have to hunt it down.
Thanks for the suggestion to try out Spatializer.
I like good sound, and I have decent surround setups for both of my TVs and my computer. However, I'm not a huge stickler. I can't tell the difference between say a 128kb MP3 and the original lossless WAV file.
Yeah, the Genome Project, Google, Berkley, various Defense Departments, NASA, the UN, Los Alamos, MIT, BBC, Apple, Adobe, Wikipedia, etc.
Did I mention Slashdot uses MySQL?
Clearly, anyone who uses MySQL clearly must be an idiot.
http://www.mysql.com/customers/
Someone please mod this guy for trolling.
Which is why I specifically mentioned the Star Wars soundtrack.
Pearl Jam's album likely isn't going to be mixed for 5.1, sadly, though I'd buy that in a heartbeat as well.
But the Star Wars score was recorded and mixed in 5.1 so it isn't a stretch if the format really existed to release some movie scores in DVDA.
By the way, DVDA also has another meaning that I can't link to because it isn't safe for work.
Sounds great. Who adopted it?
If I could go buy say that Star Wars soundtrack on DVD-Audio tomorrow, I would. But I don't believe I can.
It really is. Before it even launched, it was dead. Most of the studios backed BluRay, and it was going to be in the PS3, which whether you care for the PS3 or not, provided a larger installed base almost overnight.
Not only is BlockBuster no longer ordering HD-DVD, but many large retailers are canceling all orders of HD-DVD.
Dead. Dead. Dead.
(Note this doesn't mean the BluRay is guaranteed success, but simply that the HD-DVD is dead)
Wasn't there a Slashdot story recently proclaiming the CD to be obsolete?
Even though digital music sales are up, for many people, the CD is still the way you carry and purchase music.
People came up with formats like DVD-Audio, but what is the point of that? A CD isn't too large to be cumbersome, and it holds enough data for an album. In fact, if you burn MP3's to the disc, you can hold tons of albums on it.
It is cheap, burns fast, and is still used for data and software installs.
It has been a very resilient medium, and given how long floppy-drives stuck around (far, far too long) I don't see CD's disappearing anytime soon.
There are "beter" alternatives, but it is so universal, it is here to stay.
For the record, I really like and respect Linus.
But at times he can be very terse. He can be funny at the same time, but make no mistake, he can be very terse.
Here is the kicker. Gates isn't giving his money away. A very small portion of his wealth (proportionally much smaller than other's charitable donations) are going to the Gates Foundation. And 95% of the Gates Foundation is in investments for companies making more money. Most of the wealth in the Gates Foundation comes from Warren Buffet, who was once the world's richest man.
He lives here in Omaha, NE and is a very frugal, simple man who from time to time can even be seen mowing his own lawn. Buffet always said he was doing to donate the bulk of his wealth and not burden his children with the responsibility it bears. His kids aren't pampered rich kids who ever assumed they would inherit anything. I've met both Peter and Susy Buffet, and not only do they make their own way in the world, they've both been very socially responsible to use their fame to help raise money for charity.
Gates was named Man of the Year and gets all the credit for good deeds he isn't doing.
And for the record, Gates repeatedly said for years he did not believe in charity and refused to donate much of anything. When he was forced to make small donations for tax purposes, he donated Microsoft software and computers to schools, again an act that is self-serving. Even Philly's much-hyped all technology school that Microsoft gets credit for was paid for in full by Philly. Neither Gates nor Microsoft donated a dime.
Can I also install Linux on this new electron wave?
"Man Finally Makes the Weed-Removing Robot"
In other news, Bush announces a major victory in the war on drugs.
- Integrity is always nice!
- ACID - InnoDB seems to provide that for me. I've never lost data on MySQL.
- Stored Procs - We use these at work on our insanely complex MSSQL setups that I loathe, but I don't know that I'll ever have use for them on my server, and I (perhaps mistakenly) assumed this was a standard SQL feature. MySQL doesn't support stored procs?
- Triggers - I'm not sure what these are.
I'll Google some PosgreSQL vs MySQL comparisons and benchmarks.
I imagine a meta-package like this is catering to the average user who just wants a common setup easy to just drop in and go. MySQL is more commonly used, and thusly it seems the logical choice for such a meta-package.
Though I'm looking to move off a web-host and build a server out of my house. Everyone keeps saying PostgreSQL is better. Why? For my average use, what benefits will it offer me?
If I throw some common PHP/SQL stuff on there, will it run faster (Gallery2, LotGD, phpbb3, etc)?
Color me stupid here, but isn't Apache the de facto standard that most everyone uses?
Some may argue that better alternatives exist (of which I'm not really aware) but since Apache is so popular and common place, wouldn't it seem the logical piece of this meta-package?
People who want specific packages for specific reasons are going to set up their own environment. For a pre-setup environment, shouldn't you shoot for the common setup?
That is a piss-poor analogy. Notepad and OpenOffice aren't in the same league and don't do the same things.
MySQL and MSSQL are both SQL servers.
Both offer the same functionality.
No wait, MSSQL offers me 10 different ways to pull up the same data, offers an unnecessarily complex interface, and performs horribly.
Both can be extended with a series of clients. Quite frankly, having used both extensively, I am quite content to use MySQL and PHPMyAdmin, though I will continue to be forced to used MSSQL at work.
All very good points, but I feel the need to clarify. Linux supports more hardware than anyone because it supports embedded hardware, all kinds of architecture, tons of legacy stuff, etc.
Windows XP supports most of the hardware on the market today, because vendors write XP drivers first and foremost.
Despite the mammoth library of Linux drivers, there is some work to be done in improving drivers for new devices. For instance my wife has a Broadcom 43xx series wireless card built into her HP laptop, and even though there is a driver right in the kernel for it, it flat-out wouldn't work. Most people suggested using ndiswrapper to use the Windows drivers. Someone suggested bc43xx-fwcutter firmware, or something like that which got it to work, but she drops connection constantly.
I use SQL server everyday. I have to write custom functions in MS SQL Server to pump into Crystal Reports, and I loathe it.
t ml
MS SQL Server sucks for the following three reasons, among many others:
1 - MySQL is more ANSI SQL compliant and MS has no respect for standards.
2 - MySQL can run on multiple platforms and doesn't require a GUI. When you have to shell out tens of thousands of dollars for a server (if not hundreds of thousands of dollars) it is important to note that MS SQL will only run on Windows, on an x86 architecture and is going to cost you considerably more money and have worse performance. A cheap Linux server on the architecture of your choice will destroy that Windows server in performance and cost less money.
3 - Even when running on the same hardware and OS, MySQL destroys MSSQL in performance. I mean, kicks MSSQL's teeth in.
http://www.mysql.com/why-mysql/benchmarks/eweek.h
And, they are two separate products:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Messenger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Messenger
Google could have told you that. Instead you call bullshit on me?
Poor form. Next time do some research and know what you're talking about.
I'll forgive you. You must not read Slashdot, or you would have seen this article.
And in the Linux world, you're seeing all kinds of nifty new virtualization technologies as well. Don't count out Xen.
And some of us prefer IE to other browsers.
You are entitled to your opinion sir, but I'm guessing the vast majority of the Slashdot crowd will disagree with you. In fact, I think most web designers will disagree with you. You don't see tons of websites dedicated to saying exactly how much Firefox is the worst piece of software ever created, but there and tons, and tons of such sites dedicated to explaining exactly how horrible IE is. The moment you attempt to tell me that IE is a good piece of software, you lose all credibility with me and come across as a troll. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and we'll continue.
Lastly if XP and 2000 sucked at one point, but they were fixed, for free, then they shouldn't be included. OS X sucked and then you got charged for 10.1, bitch about that.
Well, the parent asked for a list of Microsoft products, so mentioning OS X really has no place in the discussion. I specified 2000 pre-SP2 and XP pre-SP1 because I am not this huge hater. I dislike Microsoft as a company, and most of their products. But often I defend XP as being a pretty good OS in the end. I prefer XP with SP1, and not SP2 personally. SP2 added nag screens and bloat without really fixing security problems so much. However, when XP first launched, it broke apps, broke drivers, ran slow, and was extremely buggy. SP1 improved the OS in all those areas.
Also how do you knock a free email service? What did any other free service do that was so much better.
Because Hotmail is absolutely horrid. Slow, insecure, and they sell your email address out so you get spam. They try to sign you up for various newsletters, tons of people have complained about entire accounts and all their email magically vanishing, slow service, and not very feature rich. GMail destroys Hotmail. The new Yahoo-beta destroys Hotmail. Hell, SquirrelMail destroys Hotmail. Note, defending IE and now Hotmail? You have to be kidding me, right?
Same with Messenger, what does anyone else do that takes it out back behind the shed and beats it with a stick?
I would urge you to look at Gaim/Pidgin, Kopete, Trillian, etc. How about the fact that Messenger would put itself back in the startup group repeatedly when it was removed? That alone makes it crappy and annoying software. What about the fact that you could be blasted with unsolicited spam via Messenger, and many people had no way or clue to get rid of it? So you're defending IE, Hotmail, and Messenger, three of the most hated things on the planet. Are you sure you're not trolling.
Works may suck but how many options were there for you if you didn't want to spend a ton of money on an office suite 10 years ago? Or even 5? Works and...? And oo.o wasn't really an option unless you had high speed, or wanted to spend $40 on a cd version of free software. Plus you had to go to compusa or some other store full of untrained morons who either don't know what you're looking for or spend the whole time trying to talk you into ms office (quick rant, I went into a compusa to buy a tv, pre massive shutdown, and I had to tell the guy 5 times I didn't want the extended warranty, I finally had to tell him that if he didn't shut the fuck up I was going