Well, if you're talking market share, there are something around 1 billion PCs out there. I think we're about to hit, what 30 million tablets? If you want to talk market share, tablets don't even exist yet. There are a lot of smartphones, but I don't see how smartphones are replacing PCs.
Don't worry. Traditional PCs are also growing in market share. What's remarkable is that it is considered a "mature" industry, and yet sales are still increasing. Most people agree with your sentiment, so don't pay attention to bloggers and the like: Those are a loud bunch who actually *can* do their work from a tablet. The rest of us just read those posts while working on our PCs, as usual.
I forsee the pre-build PC market shrinking a ton, and the custom build market growing to take up all the slack. PC nerds will have these smartphones and tablet in addition to their PCs. Grandma/Pa will just have a tablet and/or smartphone.
I agree with this sentiment. I do dislike how my phone screen looks after a short use. I am repulsed by others' devices too - they make mine look like it just came out of the sanitizer by comparison.
You still type-to-search in Windows 8. In fact, if you use the keyboard, Win8 is very similar to Win7. The one caveat is that they put filters on your search so that the default search is for applications. You have to hit the arrow keys to choose between the "Applications", "Settings", and "Files" filters. It's a slight annoyance (I prefer the flat search structure), so I've provided feedback using the feedback tool.
MS is actually good at listening to what people want. Use the feedback tools.
Nope, that's a a complete mis-characterization. They added extensive keyboard support to the GUI. It's a good idea. Who the hell does all these cumbersome mouse movements to do the mundane stuff anyway? Ctrl-C to copy, Ctrl-V to paste works great with a GUI. The keyboard is always going to be faster than the mouse for the functions you use a lot. The mouse is a great way to discover those functions in the first place. Keyboard shortcuts have been a part of GUIs pretty much since the start. Now the keyboard has more power. You can, in fact, use the GUI effectively using only a keyboard, including laying out windows on your desktop (Win7, windows key + left/right/up/down, for example). You can also use the mouse, or some combination of the two.
Keyboard is still fastest though, by a huge margin.
That's not *the* solution, it's just *a* solution. Another solution would be to pin your most used programs to the taskbar, or to the desktop, or just plain organize your start menu by dragging items around. There are some other options too, such as mapping keyboard shortcuts. Besides, who said you can't control a GUI with the keyboard anyway? It's by far the best way. Mouse is great for exploring the interface, keyboard is by far better for actually using it.
> There are lots of us that went through organizational effort to ensure that our start menu was properly categorized and organized. If I installed a new program it typically went to one of several categories much like you see on a modern Linux install (Accessories, Games, Multimedia, Productivity, Utilities). For people who put in that extra effort to keep things clean, everything post-XP has been a letdown.
If I put in the same organizational effort using the same techniques as I used in XP, I can organize my start menu in exactly the same way. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say, outside of you just wanting a Mac. If that's the case, don't bother saying anything and just get a Mac if you think that will make you happy.
I think this is the only thing he can say - I just tried organizing my start menu. Oddly, it still can be organized using exactly the same process as you use in XP.
Finding a program using the mouse in Windows 7 is pretty much exactly like finding it in XP. There is exactly one difference: When you click "All Programs", the submenu is modal instead of expanded. That's it. It works *exactly* the same way otherwise.
Now, unless you're running some incredible amount of different programs all the time, I have no idea why you wouldn't just pin everything you use regularly to the taskbar. I currently have about 20 items pinned down there. I'm a keyboard user, so I just launch programs using windows key+position number, but clicking is still plenty fast.
> Microsoft buggered up the start menu in Windows 7 and people complained
Perhaps *some* people complained. The win7 start menu is nothing short of awesome. As a keyboard/commandline user, I've never found finding files or launching programs faster or better until the windows 7 start menu. If you understood it, you'd consider it awesome too.
I'm married to a bit of a Luddite. She doesn't react well to interface changes. She doesn't really understand them, not deeply anyway, but she gets used to how things work, and doesn't like going through the learning curve over and over again. Granted, it actually never takes much time for her to get accustomed to the new interface, but it's certainly not a pleasant experience for her (or, by proximity, me). There is something to be said for consistent interfaces.
With that said, once she grows accustomed to the metro interface, she might prefer a windows-ecosystem. I already have a xbox we use for renting movies, which is something she can manage quite easily. She did take (somewhat) to windows 8 because of that, though even she hasn't caught on to the 'new' method of closing programs (ie, the OS does it most of the time).
> What you're saying is that the Metro style menu doesn't actually have any advantages to the old start menu (except "big targets", which is great for touch screens and otherwise suck), but that it also has search which you already used in Windows 7 anyway.
Big targets don't suck at all. They only suck if you need to display a really, really large amount of icons in a single screen without scrolling. The overwhelming majority of people, and even saavy people like me, are good with probably at most 20 icons visible. I've packed almost double that on 2 30" monitors. But again, my particular use-case isn't even affected by this new start menu. I do, however, see it as an improvement over the old one for people who use a mouse.
The idea is that the icons are large targets. You'd certainly want them arranged in some way, and Win8 also has an alphabetical list. However, if you know what your application is called, you just type it in and don't bother with using the new start menu at all. Unity and Gnome3 , KDE , OSX's spotlight, and the Win7 start menu use this mode of launching. IMO people seriously need to start using the keyboard - given the shortcuts in all OSes these days it's far faster to launch what you want or perform a pretty good variety of tasks. When you use the keyboard, the Win7/Win8 start menu thing loses it's significance.
Using the kinect if you don't have a mouse could actually be really quite cool. However, I hear they are actually working on eye-tracking technology to control the mouse pointer with a company called Tobii (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-demoed-with-new-gaze-eye-tracking-tool).
I have an xbox with a kinect. It's actually a good party distraction. The wife plays fitness games. And I don't need a controller at all to use my TV... outside of turning everything on (you listening MS?). I can rent movies on it too. From a product standpoint, it's quite good for non-hardcore console gamers.
Mutlitasking is more complex than that. It is possible for tasks to run continuously, it's just an API call to request that ability. If for whatever reason the OS can't give your application the resources it has requested, it notifies you. This means that if you write an application that will do long-term tasks in the background, you will have to write code that will handle the OS suspending you, which will happen on, say, weaker systems than what you envision (such as low-memory ARM devices), but on systems like my hex-core desktop, your application will be allowed to run indefinitely.
This is pretty much the same situation you encounter on Android and ios. ios in particular is quite draconian about shutting you down. Android is much more lenient, but as a programmer you have to pay attention to what you're doing. Win8 seems to be very much like Android.
People are bawwing too much about metro. The desktop is available right there. You can pin desktop apps to the metro interface and they launch in desktop mode. I've 2 30" monitors, and I've got win8 set up on it. It's fine. The monitor space actually shows a ridiculous amount of icons, and a flat structure for finding my top, oh, 40 apps is just fine. Granted, I'm still a keyboard user, but metro is actually making me think of using the mouse more.... on a desktop.
Metro is just a fullscreen start menu with large icons (ie. BIG hit targets). It's actually a good direction, and the desktop will always be there for us who use WIMP interface suitable to large displays.
> It does not scale well to a standard WIMP interface.
I don't understand what you're saying. The desktop is still there. Explorer is still there. I've found win8 makes very little difference, because I am a heavy keyboard user. I use windows via the command-line, which is pretty much the same from win7 to win8.
Slashdot Mirror
I guess you could still just connect and use the mouse, right?
Don't bring your reason and logic into a slashdot MS bash! You'll get modded troll...
Oh, too late.
Well, if you're talking market share, there are something around 1 billion PCs out there. I think we're about to hit, what 30 million tablets? If you want to talk market share, tablets don't even exist yet. There are a lot of smartphones, but I don't see how smartphones are replacing PCs.
Don't worry. Traditional PCs are also growing in market share. What's remarkable is that it is considered a "mature" industry, and yet sales are still increasing. Most people agree with your sentiment, so don't pay attention to bloggers and the like: Those are a loud bunch who actually *can* do their work from a tablet. The rest of us just read those posts while working on our PCs, as usual.
I forsee the pre-build PC market shrinking a ton, and the custom build market growing to take up all the slack. PC nerds will have these smartphones and tablet in addition to their PCs. Grandma/Pa will just have a tablet and/or smartphone.
I agree with this sentiment. I do dislike how my phone screen looks after a short use. I am repulsed by others' devices too - they make mine look like it just came out of the sanitizer by comparison.
You still type-to-search in Windows 8. In fact, if you use the keyboard, Win8 is very similar to Win7. The one caveat is that they put filters on your search so that the default search is for applications. You have to hit the arrow keys to choose between the "Applications", "Settings", and "Files" filters. It's a slight annoyance (I prefer the flat search structure), so I've provided feedback using the feedback tool.
MS is actually good at listening to what people want. Use the feedback tools.
You made me lol hard.
I wish all mac owners were like you.
Nope, that's a a complete mis-characterization. They added extensive keyboard support to the GUI. It's a good idea. Who the hell does all these cumbersome mouse movements to do the mundane stuff anyway? Ctrl-C to copy, Ctrl-V to paste works great with a GUI. The keyboard is always going to be faster than the mouse for the functions you use a lot. The mouse is a great way to discover those functions in the first place. Keyboard shortcuts have been a part of GUIs pretty much since the start. Now the keyboard has more power. You can, in fact, use the GUI effectively using only a keyboard, including laying out windows on your desktop (Win7, windows key + left/right/up/down, for example). You can also use the mouse, or some combination of the two.
Keyboard is still fastest though, by a huge margin.
That's not *the* solution, it's just *a* solution. Another solution would be to pin your most used programs to the taskbar, or to the desktop, or just plain organize your start menu by dragging items around. There are some other options too, such as mapping keyboard shortcuts. Besides, who said you can't control a GUI with the keyboard anyway? It's by far the best way. Mouse is great for exploring the interface, keyboard is by far better for actually using it.
> There are lots of us that went through organizational effort to ensure that our start menu was properly categorized and organized. If I installed a new program it typically went to one of several categories much like you see on a modern Linux install (Accessories, Games, Multimedia, Productivity, Utilities). For people who put in that extra effort to keep things clean, everything post-XP has been a letdown.
If I put in the same organizational effort using the same techniques as I used in XP, I can organize my start menu in exactly the same way. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say, outside of you just wanting a Mac. If that's the case, don't bother saying anything and just get a Mac if you think that will make you happy.
I think this is the only thing he can say - I just tried organizing my start menu. Oddly, it still can be organized using exactly the same process as you use in XP.
> As far as I'm concerned it's a disaster zone.
Finding a program using the mouse in Windows 7 is pretty much exactly like finding it in XP. There is exactly one difference: When you click "All Programs", the submenu is modal instead of expanded. That's it. It works *exactly* the same way otherwise.
Now, unless you're running some incredible amount of different programs all the time, I have no idea why you wouldn't just pin everything you use regularly to the taskbar. I currently have about 20 items pinned down there. I'm a keyboard user, so I just launch programs using windows key+position number, but clicking is still plenty fast.
> Microsoft buggered up the start menu in Windows 7 and people complained
Perhaps *some* people complained. The win7 start menu is nothing short of awesome. As a keyboard/commandline user, I've never found finding files or launching programs faster or better until the windows 7 start menu. If you understood it, you'd consider it awesome too.
I'm married to a bit of a Luddite. She doesn't react well to interface changes. She doesn't really understand them, not deeply anyway, but she gets used to how things work, and doesn't like going through the learning curve over and over again. Granted, it actually never takes much time for her to get accustomed to the new interface, but it's certainly not a pleasant experience for her (or, by proximity, me). There is something to be said for consistent interfaces.
With that said, once she grows accustomed to the metro interface, she might prefer a windows-ecosystem. I already have a xbox we use for renting movies, which is something she can manage quite easily. She did take (somewhat) to windows 8 because of that, though even she hasn't caught on to the 'new' method of closing programs (ie, the OS does it most of the time).
> What you're saying is that the Metro style menu doesn't actually have any advantages to the old start menu (except "big targets", which is great for touch screens and otherwise suck), but that it also has search which you already used in Windows 7 anyway.
Big targets don't suck at all. They only suck if you need to display a really, really large amount of icons in a single screen without scrolling. The overwhelming majority of people, and even saavy people like me, are good with probably at most 20 icons visible. I've packed almost double that on 2 30" monitors. But again, my particular use-case isn't even affected by this new start menu. I do, however, see it as an improvement over the old one for people who use a mouse.
The idea is that the icons are large targets. You'd certainly want them arranged in some way, and Win8 also has an alphabetical list. However, if you know what your application is called, you just type it in and don't bother with using the new start menu at all. Unity and Gnome3 , KDE , OSX's spotlight, and the Win7 start menu use this mode of launching. IMO people seriously need to start using the keyboard - given the shortcuts in all OSes these days it's far faster to launch what you want or perform a pretty good variety of tasks. When you use the keyboard, the Win7/Win8 start menu thing loses it's significance.
Using the kinect if you don't have a mouse could actually be really quite cool. However, I hear they are actually working on eye-tracking technology to control the mouse pointer with a company called Tobii (http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-demoed-with-new-gaze-eye-tracking-tool).
I have an xbox with a kinect. It's actually a good party distraction. The wife plays fitness games. And I don't need a controller at all to use my TV... outside of turning everything on (you listening MS?). I can rent movies on it too. From a product standpoint, it's quite good for non-hardcore console gamers.
Mutlitasking is more complex than that. It is possible for tasks to run continuously, it's just an API call to request that ability. If for whatever reason the OS can't give your application the resources it has requested, it notifies you. This means that if you write an application that will do long-term tasks in the background, you will have to write code that will handle the OS suspending you, which will happen on, say, weaker systems than what you envision (such as low-memory ARM devices), but on systems like my hex-core desktop, your application will be allowed to run indefinitely.
This is pretty much the same situation you encounter on Android and ios. ios in particular is quite draconian about shutting you down. Android is much more lenient, but as a programmer you have to pay attention to what you're doing. Win8 seems to be very much like Android.
I predict that tools to bring back with Win7 UI will be readily available from the MS Market.
I'm not concerned.
You can run everything in windows from the command-line as well...
I disagree. Using the keyboard is the same, but a large array of large application targets makes using the mouse easier too.
People are bawwing too much about metro. The desktop is available right there. You can pin desktop apps to the metro interface and they launch in desktop mode. I've 2 30" monitors, and I've got win8 set up on it. It's fine. The monitor space actually shows a ridiculous amount of icons, and a flat structure for finding my top, oh, 40 apps is just fine. Granted, I'm still a keyboard user, but metro is actually making me think of using the mouse more.... on a desktop.
Metro is just a fullscreen start menu with large icons (ie. BIG hit targets). It's actually a good direction, and the desktop will always be there for us who use WIMP interface suitable to large displays.
> It does not scale well to a standard WIMP interface.
I don't understand what you're saying. The desktop is still there. Explorer is still there. I've found win8 makes very little difference, because I am a heavy keyboard user. I use windows via the command-line, which is pretty much the same from win7 to win8.
They are acting insecure and attacking their enemies, like Apple does.