Oh but the video game industry DOES have a lobbyist and advocacy group! A few in fact! Here are some of the people who fight against Jack Thompson and WIN!
First we have the ESA, the Entertainment Software Association!
Headed by Doug Lowenstein, a person Jack Thompson REALLY hates, the ESA is video game's no. 1 lobby group and is also the organization that developed the ESRB. While the ESA and ESRB are connected, the ESRB, headed by Patricia Vance, is a separate entity from the rest of the ESA because its sole purpose is to rate games. However, whenever a law, like the one in Illinois, passes, the ESA is the first one there to counter it. AND... they bring back up!
Back up like the VSDA, Video Software Dealers Association!
This group handles video games, DVDs, and much more in terms of video and digital entertainment. From movies, to music, to video games, although with an emphasis on video, the members of this group include retailers and other companies in the entertainment industry who seek to promote and discover new technologies in providing digital entertainment, and also back the stance of movies as well as video games should government legislation possibly impose on them!
While not as big a lobbyist as they are a partner, the IEMA, Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association, works with the ESRB and ESA in terms of what goes on their member's shelves!
The IEMA has members such as Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Target, and most members in the IEMA maintain a "Will not stock AO ratings" policy. This is fine since they work with the ESRB and listen to what the ESRB has to say about the games being given to them. This organization works well with the ESRB and ESA, and can come to support the organizations if necessary!
Second to last, one group that is close to the heart of the games industry, the IGDA, the International Game Developers Association!
This group of game developers is very well spoken in terms of how the creators of games feel about laws that go against their ability to make games. Whereas the ESA could best represent game publishers, the IGDA would represent the game makers themselves. The forum here is a great place for game designers to share ideas and voice opinions on current hot topics. A great community of minds, and should some Miami lawyer try and pass laws against them... well then they start showing teeth!
And last, one that I don't see much press about, but one that is behind most of my favorite hangouts, the CMP Game Group!
While not a lobbyist or advocacy group by any means, the CMP Game Group finances and provides several methods of information sharing and acheivement recognition in the game industry. They provide the website Gamasutra.com, publish Game Developers magazine, founded the Game Developers Conference, the GDC, the Game Developers Choice Awards, and the Independent Games Festival. If anyone can provide an accurate resource on what makes games the games they are, the CMP game group can provide it or find the person or persons who can!
So the game industry is not left un-defended. There are plenty of organizations out there to help out people at the ESA and ESRB should they ever come under fire. If you really want to stick it to Jack Thompson, then I suggest becoming a member of some of these organizations and fight with them!
After all, if not for gamers like us, they wouldn't have the power they do now!
For this event, I have prepared a song about the Peaceaholics and their efforts:
*I Feel Pretty begins to play*
I FEEL STUPID!... OH SO STUPID!... I FEEL STUPID, RETARDED, AND DUUUUUUUMB!
I WISH CUPID... DIDN'T TRY... TO GO GET ME... CONCEEEEEEEEEEIVED!
*lalalalala la la la LA LA*
WE ARE MORONS!... SUCH BIG MORONS!... THERE'S NO SHOW ON... WITH MORONS... LIKE WEEEEEE!
SO WE GO ON... AND MAKE STINKS... ON NATIONAL... TEEEVEEEEEEEE!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
SEE THAT STUPID GUY IN THE TV THERE! WHO COULD THAT DUMB IDIOT BEEEEEEEEEEE? SUCH A STUPID FACE! SUCH A STUPID SMILE! SUCH A STUPID SIGN! SUCH A STUPID WEEEEEEEEEEE!
*such a stupid we! such a stupid we!*
I HATE ROCKSTAR!... THAT DAMN ROCKSTAR!... THEY THINK WE ARE... MUCH DUMB-"AR"... THAN THEEEEEEEY!
FOR THEY MAAAAAAAKE... MY KIDS GO AND... DOOOOO STUPID THIIIIIIIIIIIIINGS!
*music turns evil sounding*
HAVE YOU SEEN THESE OUTLANDISH NEWSCASTS!?... THEY MAKE US SEEM EVIL AS SIN!
BUT I KNOW THAT ONCE OUR GAME'S RELEASED... IT WILL SELL LIKE HOTCAKES AND THEN WE'LL SURELY WIN!
THOSE PEOPLE ARE DUMB! THEY ARE SO CONTRIVED *lalala* THEY DO NOT KNOW THIS... PUBLICITY'S FIIIIIIIINE!
BUT WHY DO THEY SEEK... TO SHOW US LIKE FREAKS?! *lalala* FOR WE ARE JUST GEEKS... WHO LIKE TO PLAY GAAAAAAAMES!
STAY AWAY FROM US... PEACEAHOLICS!... YOU MAKE ALL OF US... CATATONIC!
HONEST AND SURE... THAT THEY'LL HAVE US FINED! *lalala* I GUESS THEY DON'T KNOW... THEY'RE OUT OF THEIR MIIIIIIIIIIIINDS!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
WE FEEL STUPID!... OH SO STUPID!... THAT WE THINK THAT... THAT ROCKSTAR... SHOULD BUUUUUURRRN!
A COMMITTEEEEEE... SHOULD BE FORMED... TO GO AND SLAN... -DER THEEEEEEMMMMM!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
SEE THAT EVIL GUY, THAT JACK THOMPSON THERE!? *Jack Thompson! Where?* WHO COULD THAT SINISTER GUY GO SUUUUEEE? *Huh? Rockstar?* SUCH AN EVIL GUY! SUCH AN EVIL CASE! SUCH AN EVIL GRIN! SUCH AN EVIL DWEEEEEEEEB!
*such and evil dweeb! such an evil dweeb!*
I FEEL STUPID... OH SO STUPID... WE GOT SO FAR... AND ROCKSTAR... HAS WOOOOOOOOOON!
CAUSE' WE LOOOOOST... IN THE STUPID... LAW APPEALS COOOOOUUUUUURT!
Just went through the small section of Dave Jaffe (creator of God of War)'s blog and apparently he agrees with you whole heartedly. I am unaware of the "Deep Throat" you speak of (my bad), but I am curious in hearing about it.
You are right that Hot Coffee was definitly not, nor never was, the game's selling point. I also think you may have a point that even when standing alone, the Hot Coffee section probably won't fail those three tests.
The problem I see is that it "might" due to ignorance and judgements made by people in high positions of power. The laws never been so flexible these days if you ask me, but one thing that has maintained rock solid is that video games are not going to take it if they are UNjustly persecuted. Right now, I see that there is a good reason to be mad at Rockstar, and while some think this is all political manipulation, I side with the notion that this is a major f*ck up on the part of Rockstar and that they need to own up to the fact that they made a mistake.
They are in the process of owning up, but there are those in the industry like myself:
who think that Rockstar needs to be put in its place in order to give credibility and respect to the GAME INDUSTRY and NOT the politicians! In order to get parents to realize that video games are here to stay and that we take matters like this seriously, something needs to be done, and the ESRB has done its part, the FTC is doing its part, and frankly, the matter in Illinois is more pressing than this anyway!
But that still doesn't let Rockstar off the hook for a mistake like this! Here's what I feel is a proper punishment:
1) Offer full refunds to any upset parental units who want to return the game 2) Accept the game rating from M to AO and offer whatever is necessary to show the ratings change (Check) 3) Accept all returned copies from stores that do not want to carry the game anymore (Check) 4) Make new replacement copies with the code removed to get the M rating back (In Progress) 5) Make sure that no undesirable game content sneaks onto their final product again by changing production measures (Check) 6) Take the respective hit in the stock market (Check)
If they made an announcement saying they would give refunds, then I would see the lawsuit as no longer necessary since refunding the money is plenty of punishment in addition to everything else that Rockstar is doing to fix this mess.
Right now, people are blaming politicians, or old ladies, but no one is flat out saying that Rockstar SCREWED UP! I'm saying it and I'm going to keep saying it because I feel that they DID screw up and big time too!
I appreciate the compliment. I've come across this a lot, and have been trying to get articles and quotes from people in the industry to help back up my claims. When there's so many people against what I say, half of me wonders if they are right, while the other half wants to continue playing the Devil's Advocate just to see what reactions I get!:)
Too bad that with all I want to say I can't exactly paraphrase it easily. I really need to get into professional or at least amateur writing or something.
Oh for crying out loud, I'm trying to get INTO the video game business! Why on earth would I want to witch hunt the industry that will eventually be giving me my annual salary?
And in case you think that it's just me, the old lady, and a bunch of crazy people, then perhaps I should show you what some of the people who ARE in the industry think!
Well the reason I capitalize some words is to try and put some higher emphasis in them as if I was raising my voice on that word or words out of a speech. Although I do seem to be getting some good feedback on this, so I must be doing something right!:)
Anyway, I see what you mean that only passing one of the three means that this does not classify the game as porn. Fair enough, but that still does not change the fact that the Hot Coffee would have been enough to push the game from an M to an AO rating.
Yes, the content alone does not make the rest of the game bad, I agree, but the content is still rather extreme, especially for an M game. No other M game has graphic sexual acts in it. It may be implied or overheard, but never seen. That's the line that the Hot Coffee crossed, and what has the ESRB and politicians in an uproar.
I am not so much shocked or upset by the content myself, given GTA I almost half expected that, but the fact still remains that GTA gave a false statement in a press release. While they are taking their punches over this, there is no statement from them saying that upset parents who want to return the game for a full refund can do that. Plus, stores that deal in Interactive Entertainment can't take refunds from customers because then the store is handing out cash that they won't be reimbursed for.
This leads to a very sticky situation, and if Rockstar shuffles its feet or tries to tiptoe around it, then they are going to be caught and penalized. I doubt it will be as severe as some might suggest, but something can and will be done, and frankly I say let them have it!
I condemn censorship, but I also condemn bad business practices, which so far Rockstar has been pulling since this whole matter popped up.
Also, if the Hot Coffee were to stand alone without the rest of the GTA game around it, then it would fail those three tests quite easily!
Depends on the game and just how mature my kid is when they reach that age. It all takes different variables that the parent has to consider as opposed to a "I made the rules before you were born and I will never sway from them" kind of situation.
I know a co-worker who has a little boy she adopted shortly after he was born. The little guy is 6 years old right now, but has some issues going on. This little boy can take stuff like Power Rangers and some mild language and violence like in Star Wars Ep. 3. Parents took him to the movies, he sat through it, wasn't scared, nothing the parents minded, and the kid came out okay.
Then there's Harry Potter... the kid can NOT take Harry Potter! It freaks the jeebies out of him! Whenever a scene comes up dealing with Harry losing his parents, the kid bawls like he was just dropped down a well!
It's pretty clear that the kid can take some things, but not others! It's the duty of a parent to make sure to keep an eye on their kid to see how they react to things on TV, in movies, and IN GAMES! A 6-year old is pretty darn young to be playing games, but that doesn't mean that there aren't games for kids that age. Anything Rated E is perfect material!
Younger than 6... better get them an EC!
The point is that whether 6 or 14, it is up to the parent to make the decision based on what they feel their kids can handle. On the flipside, there is also exposing the kid to the movies and games of the past that you think they should know about!
When I have kids, Star Wars is going to be old hat, save for the die hard fans and book authors. That just means that I got to find the original Trilogy, sit down with my kids, and watch it with them. If they can take it at a young age, then I might try other movies like Gremlins to see how they react.
Same thing goes with games, if a kid can listen to language and not talk like a sailor, then I won't have a problem with language. If a kid sees violence and doesn't act it out or seem overly aggressive (or social isolated on the flipside) then I won't have a problem with violence. Sex is the most difficult and taboo of them all, but if a kid is grown up enough to know that skanky/slutty female characters in movies are not what real women are like, then I won't have a problem with that either.
It all depends on my exposing them to popular culture from here and then and seeing how they react. If they find something neat they want to share with me, I'll take the time to see what they want, and if I find it inappropriate, I can tell them WHY I find it to be that way, and see what they think about it.
There is a guy named Prof. Henry Jenkins who is a professor at MIT and studies the effects and results of popular culture on today's youth. He has even presented before Congress when there was a kerfuffle over what drove kids to shoot up their school in Littleton. The fact is that he pointed out that pushing away the popular culture of today is pointless and that we should listen to our kids and not try and push away or shove aside what they like today.
For my generation, video games are the current hot topic and draw a lot of attention because it is a new media. In the future, it may be virtual reality that draws the ire of politicians and so on, claiming THAT is the murder training machine or ruiner of children's innocence!
Since generations of today are now being defined by pop culture (you can define the 70's and 80's pretty easily these days), it is important to defend the culture you have now and to also embrace the pop cultures of the past. Pushing it down and making it underground doesn't do any good. Listening to the kids and sharing your pop culture will do wonders for them. As they grow up, and depending on the kids themselves, they may come understand how to properly treat the opposite sex, how to properly behave in public, and what is and what is not proper speech.
For more on this, try viewing Prof. Jenkin's website. You can find it here:
Hmm, well in that case, I have to say that the Hot Coffee game fits under b. It depicts sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law. The girlfriend is going down on said guy with oral sex. It's also possible to switch positions, and the audio is just as raunchy and fits the mood 100%!
You can question whether it is in a patently offensive way, but that's all up in the air now isn't it? You'd have to go to court and prove that not having a dick being sucked is grounds for not being patently offensive, or that oral sex or any of the other positions shown in the Hot Coffee content are not the sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law. That would be a VERY tricky battle, and require plenty of research, and time and effort to convince the court that the content does not cross the line from R to NC17!
Frankly, I don't think Rockstar wants to waste that much time because deep down I think they know that they goofed up and are doing what it takes to recover. This goof up is not a minor thing, this is a MAJOR screw up of massive proportions! Sure it may have been a small oversight, but the consequences and repercussions have made this small oversight something big by now!
And remember, this is NOT a mod! We are talking about content on the disc, locked OR unlocked! Modding is right out! The fact remains that if the content on the disc was there to begin with, then it is Rockstar's mistake for not catching it and removing it from the final version!
A practice which should be part of ALL software! If something is on the software disc that isn't in the final cut, then it should not be there, whether it is accessible or not!
Oh CRIPES! First we got the people that are so serious that you can cut the tension with a knife in the Politics section, and now I got people who are pretty laid back and easy going here in YRO area.
First of all, while yes I am making assumptions regarding the stance of the grandmother, would you say they are radical assumptions? I would think they are pretty down to earth myself. And as for the ESRB, I am NOT assuming that! That is TRUTH!
This is a direct interview with the President of the ESRB, and she puts it loud and clear here that they were unaware of the Hot Coffee content, and YES it was hidden, YES it requires a patch or a cheat code to unlock......BUT it is on the disc to BEGIN with, and the entire FACT that it is there is why Rockstar is in the wrong here! That content should NEVER... EVER have made it onto the final product! It is STUPID and naieve to think that locked content won't be cracked open, and the only sure fire way to make sure that you have an airtight alibi should something like this arise is to make DAMN sure that the content is not on the disc to begin with!
Rockstar FAILED to do that, and instead of admitting to it to begin with, they tried to COVER IT UP by putting the blame on the person who modded the game. And then when the truth came to light that the content WAS in fact made by Rockstar, then Rockstar took actions, but not until the game industry and politicians came down on them.
ESRB policy is that EVERYTHING, locked or not, that is on the disc MUST be reviewed by a board to determine the rating. If they had revealed this at the ESRB review, they could have easily fixed the problem, and resubmitted it instead of making more than 6 MILLION COPIES that had the content on them!
Yes the porn industry is a large industry, and whether or not it's comparable to games, I have no idea what the numbers are! But that's besides the point! If you're going to get porn, get porn! If you're going to get a game that has porn on it, one way or another, then at least let people KNOW its there.
Rockstar SHOULD care about ratings since the self-imposed ratings are what keeps the government from doing it themselves and that would be MUCH worse!
Rampant hypocrisy you say? If you think THIS is bad, you should see what they have to say over in the politics section with the Hilary Clinton and Rockstar news. Fascinating stuff, really!
Fact is that people need to understand that the meausres being imposed on Rockstar, and the lawsuits themselves, are not being founded on the grounds of censorship. They are being founded on the grounds of potential fraud, and frnakly I think they have a good case going for them. However, people get up in arms and think that "OH SCREW IT" or "OH THIS ISN'T IMPORTANT" and all that jazz. However, I take a more personal stake in all this because if I'm going to go into the industry, it helps to know what certain actions will result in certain conssequences.
Surely you don't think that Rockstar should get away scott free for leaving that content on the disc? Someone left it on there, by accident or on purpose, but one way or another someone has to be fired! What's more, if it was left on purpose, then it puts a negative spin on ALL games now doesn't it!? Will people trust ANY game if they know that companies can go under the radar of their own self regulations?
If those kinds of sentiments become strong enough, then government legislation can come as well and THAT brings about censorship which I detest.
So to make sure that doesn't happen, something has to be done with Rockstar, and we are merely sitting back and watching it from afar. With great interest, yes, but still from afar!
This is just my usual length of posts because I usually finding myself writing articles more so than posts. I really got to find a better place to put these things!
MAN! This whole fiasco is bouncing around the topics here more than a superball! Alright, let's get a few things straight:
Let's set aside all concepts that this 85 year old lady is a shriveled old busy body who wants to feel important. That's Jack Thompson you guys are thinking about; wrong person! Let's try putting ourselves in her shoes for a second.
You are the grandmother of a well rounded 14 year old son. He's getting angsty from puberty and general teenager stuff, but he ain't that bad a kid. His parents let him watch some R rated movies, and don't mind the music he listens to either. They are also pretty tolerant about the games he plays.
So you know your grandson wants this game, and let's say that you know at the very least that it is pretty graphic, but IT DOESN'T CONTAIN ANYTHING HE HASN'T SEEN BEFORE! If he's watched R rated movies, he's probably familiar with the violence. If he listens to today's music, then the game's language ought to be no shock to him.
So TRUSTING that there was no softcore or hardcore sex stuff in the game, she buys it and gives it to her grandson as a gift.
THEN you find out that the company slipped in this mini-game that involves graphic/explicit sex, and you realize YOU were the one that bought it for him. Sure it requires using a cheat device and a cheat code, but with a little web surfing and owning said cheat device, it isn't too difficult to unlock if the effort is put into it.
Graphic sex is THE taboo thing that the grandson's parents and yourselves think he is a BIT young for! Especially at the age when he's first discovering girls and you don't want him to get any misconceptions about the fairer sex.
So now you've bought it, found out about it, and took it away from him before he could go and find that cheat to unlock the sex scene. But now you realize that you're $50 in the hole thanks to that, and right now you should be pretty angry!
So whose fault was it? Was it the ratings board for not properly giving the game an AO rating, reserved for games with graphic sex? Well as it turns out, it wasn't the ratings board's fault because they changed the rating after they found out and proved all of this, so now eyes turn to the company.
Rockstar.
Rockstar has pushed the envelope of controversy and taken it all the way to the bank, and right now you are pretty upset that they hoodwinked the ratings board, and you yourself too. I mean if you can't trust the company who makes the thing, then who CAN you trust?
Now, you want your $50 back, and you think that all other parents and grandparents who are in the same boat as you are should get their money back for the copies they don't want anymore! If there's a recall on the game, then it's only fair to refund the money or replace the discs with clean copies!
So, now we have dear Flo here going to court with a lawyer who ISN'T Jack Thompson, and she, as of right now, can have a pretty good case against the company. They did NOT disclose the mini-game to the ratings board, and it went unmentioned until July when it spread like wildfire, and when something spreads that quickly, you know that it can be easily accessed by any tech savvy kid. 14 is a good age where just about any kid can find any information they want on the net without strict parent control. What's more, trying to block finding the cheats is nearly impossible because SEVERAL sites can have this information!
So, in the board of lawsuits...
1) Grandma has a case against Rockstar because they provided millions of discs to parents who did NOT want graphic sex placed before their kids. Violence and language, and sexual suggestiveness is one thing, but graphic sex is THE MOST TABOO thing possible in media. Movies, books, TV, and radio do not have graphic explicit sex material on them. Think about the last time you listened to a porn scene on the radio, watched full blown sex on TV (BY HUMANS!), read a graphically detailed sex scene in a book, and saw a full out s
Actually, I believe Rockstar DID admit that the code was on the discs once the ESRB caught them red-handed by unlocking the mini-game on the PS2 version of the game. Once the proof was there, the ESRB re-rated the game, and Rockstar finally fessed up. If they didn't fess up at all by now, they wouldn't be offering the new AO stickers, and working on new copies of the game with the offending code and material COMPLETELY removed.
Other than that, I agree with you completely. I myself have read through all the news on GamaSutra, GameSpot, and also done some digging on people's personal blogs and websites to fill up on information. I intend to get into the game industry as a tester while working my way up to Creative Director.
First I got to graduate from college which will be in about a year, and then I intend to see if I can get in somewhere! Any tips on the best way to break into the biz?
Oh but she DOES understand what's going on. Of all the politicians that have barked about video games, she has had the most level head out of all of them!
You also forget that the ESRB has a policy where EVERYTHING on the disk, accessible or not, needs to be revealed to them in order to properly give a rating. Like I said elsewhere, there is no way the ESRB can look at EVERY detail in a game to determine a rating because it could take them months or even a year to find all the possible offensive content, or content that requires a rating. That is why it is the PUBLISHER'S RESPONSIBILITY to reveal this material to the ESRB for rating. When the game was submitted, they did NOT tell the ESRB that they had this mini-game which they decided against and locked on the disk.
Also, keep in mind that this is NOT a mod! This was actually developed by Rockstar and not by a modder. Sure they are pissed that a modder went in and breached the EULA to uncover this, and Rockstar is likewise tracking down this person to grab them by the balls and rip them a new one!
BUT, that still does not excuse the fact that they left the content on the disk, accident or not, and that THEY created it and not a mod.
People can mod the Sims all they want, but the fact is that EA did not provide the code, sound, or graphics that some people put in The Sims. This is VERY different from Rockstar's situation! Rockstar's mini-game is NOT a mod, but a locked mini-game that was never supposed to see the light of day, but now that the cat's out of the bag, EVERYONE and their brother knows about it, and can find websites to figure out how to do it. These websites with the instructions (and who are more or less PROFITING from having this information) and the person who found this out in the first place are being sought after by Rockstar, who is now being sought after by the FTC now that the ESRB has caught them and taken action.
It's like a Tom and Jerry cartoon where the dog chases the cat who chases the mouse. In this case, it's:
FTC -> Rockstar Games -> Modder who broke EULA and IP rules
It all comes down to who catches who first to decide what happens next.
EA and the Sims however, they got nothing to hide! All content is made by the modders, so it's just:
EA -> Perverted Modders
Simple as that! No dog to chase down the other two!
On the contrary, I disagree with you. If you FORGOT to remove the images from the server that is hosting the website, you could very well be at risk for leaving them on there in the first place. Leaving that media there for a hacker to LINK to, and not forcefully put ON the server, is simple negligence, and negligence is what often gets you FIRED!
However, a server is a lot easier of a problem to fix than 6 million hard copies of video game disks. If the images were on the server and needed removing, changing the links in the code back to where they were and also removing the pictures is relatively harmless, and can be covered up if acted upon quickly.
Rockstar however has put out MILLIONS of copies of GTA:San Andreas which equates to MILLIONS of "Servers" that any one modifier can go into and unlock by changing codes with a patch or cheat device. Leaving harmful material like that in a magnitude such as this, is a DISASTER!
Negligence for the server is one thing as that can be forgiven and fixed quickly. Leaving this content on disks KNOWING that people are going to most likely play around with it again and again is simply naieve if they think no one will find that code.
Rockstar has often drawn the eye of politicians and news reporters alike, and this time there is no escape from persecution because even the game industry agrees that Rockstar has gone too far this time.
Besides, the worst lie they told was in that press release stating that they did not make the code, and then later full out admitting it.
Either way, the news has just come out that they are being sued:
Ay-Yi-Yi! Why does everyone keep thinking that Hilary Clinton has it out for every instance of violence or sex in video games?! She has only made two statements on the matter, and has never entered into censorship or video game discussions before now! She's not Tipper Gore people!
Here are her two statements regarding the GTA Hot Coffee fiasco:
First there's her statement regarding this when she first heard about it -
- the legislation proposal seems a little harsh, but ESA President, Doug Lowenstein, began contacting her after that reply, and later when the mini-game was discovered, Hilary was promptly notified, and here's what she had to say then -
- and after reading that, I can see she's upset at Rockstar, and frankly I can't blame her! Rockstar deserves to be investigated by the FTC because they are liable for FRAUD by lying about the Hot Coffee content in a public PRESS release! That's a BIG, SERIOUS NO-NO! As for the ESRB, she gives them a warning to keep an eye out for this so that it doesn't happen again, but she makes no motion to try and replace them, and for all intents and purposes, her legislation proposal may have been dropped!
Frankly, I can't see why people are mad at her! Those in the ESA and the game industry are NOT barking at her for what she has said or what she has done.
Like I said, Hilary is NOT Jack Thompson and NOT Tipper Gore or Joe Lieberman, so it makes NO SENSE to lump her in with them in regards to her feelings towards censorship! She never said ANYTHING about that!
I have had it up to here with people knocking at Hilary Clinton for her role in the whole Hot Coffee/ESRB thing. What shocks me most are the people who start talking politics here more-so than ethical standards discussions and GAMES! I came here because I was under the impression that this was part of the Slashdot games section, but apparently I've been hoodwinked and led to the politics part. (Wait, I AM in the Politics section?! How did THAT happen!?)
But no matter, as I intend to NOT discuss politics or anything of the like here, but speak as a student who has been studying the game industry in pursuit of a career there as a Creative Director.
What's a Creative Director you ask? This is the person who is considered the BRAINS of the game, the author of a book or director of a movie if you will! The game is considered this person's baby and when the credits role, this person is usually the first one listed. Right now, we have several different parties thrown in here for what's going on with this event, but the Creative Director is not one of them! So who is involved in all this:
The Game Makers:
Take-Two Interactive Rockstar Games
The Political People:
Hilary Clinton Jack Thompson Leland Yee
The Video Game Lobbyists:
ESA (Entertainment Software Association) ESRB (Entertainment Software Ratings Board) IGDA (Independent Game Developers Association) VSDA (Video Software Dealers Association) IEMA (Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association)
Quite a few more people on the side of games than I bet most of the folks here expected! Not surprised though as they are usually very quiet in regards to their actions and rarely peak on the headlines, if in the news at all!
But they are there, and they have been challenging legislation left and right in regards to censorship and overly strict legislation on video games.
Hot Coffee is not the current fuss that has the attention of these groups.
The current fuss that's going on is the law in Illinois that requires state enforced labels on video games and places a large fine on stores that sell state-considered "Mature" games to minors. This law is slated to go into effect on the first of 2006, but that gives lots of time for the groups to challenge the law, and most likely win!
Already similar laws have been overturned in Washington State, Indiana, and Missouri. The laws have been marked as "Unconstitutional" and violate first amendment rights. Rightly so, since treating video games different from movies, books, comics, and television is a major hypocrisy. So why video games? Because it's the newest media to earn the ire of the government because of its "new-ness" and the lack of knowledge held by people in power.
That's not to say that there are no politicians on the side of video games. Quite a few listen to the ESA, ESRB, and take measures as necessary.
Hilary Clinton is NOT an avid anti-video game fanatic like Jack Thompson is. One look at her website, and you can see that she focuses on lots of topics regarding human well-being, and does a lot for her New York constituents. But then what DID she say regarding the video game business then?
And that's all she wrote! The fact that this is ALL she has to say on the matter is actually COMFORTING to me as a gamer! She does NOT claim that the ESRB is a faulty institution, and applauds it for taking action on GTA:SA.
Okay, THAT did not turn out as well as I had hoped for. Apparently, HTML and Plain Old Text is something I NEED to pay more attention to! Let's try that again:
Okay, from what I've been reading here, NOBODY has clicked the link to read the FULL article!
If they did, then they would know that the Entertainment Software Association, the ESA, has already filed suit AGAINST this law in conjunction with the Video Software Dealers Association and the Illinois Retail Merchants Association! AND the law is not slated to go into effect until January 1st, 2006! That's practically SIX MONTHES to overturn the law and label it as unconstitutional.
Similar attempts like this have failed in Indiana, Washington state, and Missouri! It's always been attempts made on the state level, and never on the national level! The national level is quite happy with the ESRB, and the recent announcement of the FTC investigating whether or not Rockstar INTENTIONALLY deceived the ESRB is a BIG PLUS for the ESRB in terms of governmental RESPECT!
And for those nay-sayers that think a law like this ISN'T harmful, let's put a few things in perspective:
1) A law the imposes state regulated stickers and labels on games SERIOUSLY undermines the authority of the ESRB! Plus, there is no guarantee that whoever is in charge of state regulation will act the same way the ESRB does! We may see FOOTBALL games marked as 18+ because of the "Violent" content! Next thing you know, Barbie Horse Adventures may be rated T for Teen! This isn't actually a stretch here! Anyone remember the early days of anime when they had no ratings? They all had those 18+ stickers, even the harmless ones like Nadia: Secret of Blue Water!
2) Fining retailers and so on is one thing, but that does NOT make for good parenting! It is the parent's responsibility to monitor what their child is playing or watching AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! The parents are in control of whether their kids have money to buy the games, THEY are also the ones who usually go out and buy them, and if they are DUMB enough to let their kids play GTA:SA KNOWING the GTA history that they've made for themselves AND LATER going on a witch-hunt after the ESRB, ESA, and other FUNCTIONING BODIES of video game ratings and policy making!
That's just STUPID!
Banning something will NOT make it go away. Prohibition did NOT stop people from drinking, and banning games is the same thing. People will STILL find ways to play, and it will become an underground operation just like it is in Malaysia or something.
3) Many of you are not game developers! I am currently a student who is taking an IT major with a concentration on game development. One of the things I WANT to do is express my ideas, stories, and creativity in a video game, which has been my dream since 2nd grade!
If new laws regulating what CAN or CAN'T be in a game are passed, then that SEVERELY restricts the developers' ability to create good game content and also tell a good story. The game God of War, for example, is credited as being the idea of one Dave Jaffe, who is considered the "Brains" of the game. It's his baby, more or less, because he is the CREATIVE DIRECTOR, the highly coveted position in the game industry where you have the final say on what does or what doesn't go into a game (with a vote by all the other developers as well. Can't be a tyrant here folks!)
God of War is brutal with medusa decapitations, Cyclops eye gouging, harpy wing tearing, and plenty of blood and guts! Not to mention the two VERY topless ladies at the end of the Hydra section of the game. But, with the way it is told and the story that wraps around it, you can see why the brutality FITS Kratos' character, and how even the topless women fit in with an ancient Greek setting!
With higher restrictions on content, then the developers have to censor themselves to get their games out to the people!
THIS is where the free speech card is played, because games are not just games! They are no l
Okay, from what I've been reading here, NOBODY has clicked the link to read the FULL article!
If they did, then they would know that the Entertainment Software Association, the ESA, has already filed suit AGAINST this law in conjunction with the Video Software Dealers Association and the Illinois Retail Merchants Association! AND the law is not slated to go into effect until January 1st, 2006! That's practically SIX MONTHES to overturn the law and label it as unconstitutional.
Similar attempts like this have failed in Indiana, Washington state, and Missouri! It's always been attempts made on the state level, and never on the national level! The national level is quite happy with the ESRB, and the recent announcement of the FTC investigating whether or not Rockstar INTENTIONALLY deceived the ESRB is a BIG PLUS for the ESRB in terms of governmental RESPECT!
And for those nay-sayers that think a law like this ISN'T harmful, let's put a few things in perspective:
1) A law the imposes state regulated stickers and labels on games SERIOUSLY undermines the authority of the ESRB! Plus, there is no guarantee that whoever is in charge of state regulation will act the same way the ESRB does! We may see FOOTBALL games marked as 18+ because of the "Violent" content! Next thing you know, Barbie Horse Adventures may be rated T for Teen! This isn't actually a stretch here! Anyone remember the early days of anime when they had no ratings? They all had those 18+ stickers, even the harmless ones like Nadia: Secret of Blue Water!
2) Fining retailers and so on is one thing, but that does NOT make for good parenting! It is the parent's responsibility to monitor what their child is playing or watching AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! The parents are in control of whether their kids have money to buy the games, THEY are also the ones who usually go out and buy them, and if they are DUMB enough to let their kids play GTA:SA KNOWING the GTA history that they've made for themselves AND LATER going on a witch-hunt after the ESRB, ESA, and other FUNCTIONING BODIES of video game ratings and policy making!
That's just STUPID!
Banning something will NOT make it go away. Prohibition did NOT stop people from drinking, and banning games is the same thing. People will STILL find ways to play, and it will become an underground operation just like it is in Malaysia or something.
3) Many of you are not game developers! I am currently a student who is taking an IT major with a concentration on game development. One of the things I WANT to do is express my ideas, stories, and creativity in a video game, which has been my dream since 2nd grade!
If new laws regulating what CAN or CAN'T be in a game are passed, then that SEVERELY restricts the developers' ability to create good game content and also tell a good story. The game God of War, for example, is credited as being the idea of one Dave Jaffe, who is considered the "Brains" of the game. It's his baby, more or less, because he is the CREATIVE DIRECTOR, the highly coveted position in the game industry where you have the final say on what does or what doesn't go into a game (with a vote by all the other developers as well. Can't be a tyrant here folks!)
God of War is brutal with medusa decapitations, Cyclops eye gouging, harpy wing tearing, and plenty of blood and guts! Not to mention the two VERY topless ladies at the end of the Hydra section of the game. But, with the way it is told and the story that wraps around it, you can see why the brutality FITS Kratos' character, and how even the topless women fit in with an ancient Greek setting!
With higher restrictions on content, then the developers have to censor themselves to get their games out to the people!
THIS is where the free speech card is played, because games are not just games! They are no longer the "shoot Alien A, get 100 points" kind of games from the early days! These are now games that can tell a unique and compelling story, and limiting what can or can't go into a game by government legislation will hamper the market and
Slashdot Mirror
Oh but the video game industry DOES have a lobbyist and advocacy group! A few in fact! Here are some of the people who fight against Jack Thompson and WIN!
h omeent2005/homeentnews.htx
First we have the ESA, the Entertainment Software Association!
http://www.theesa.com/
Headed by Doug Lowenstein, a person Jack Thompson REALLY hates, the ESA is video game's no. 1 lobby group and is also the organization that developed the ESRB. While the ESA and ESRB are connected, the ESRB, headed by Patricia Vance, is a separate entity from the rest of the ESA because its sole purpose is to rate games. However, whenever a law, like the one in Illinois, passes, the ESA is the first one there to counter it. AND... they bring back up!
Back up like the VSDA, Video Software Dealers Association!
http://www.idealink.org/Resource.phx/vsda/events/
This group handles video games, DVDs, and much more in terms of video and digital entertainment. From movies, to music, to video games, although with an emphasis on video, the members of this group include retailers and other companies in the entertainment industry who seek to promote and discover new technologies in providing digital entertainment, and also back the stance of movies as well as video games should government legislation possibly impose on them!
While not as big a lobbyist as they are a partner, the IEMA, Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association, works with the ESRB and ESA in terms of what goes on their member's shelves!
http://www.iema.org/
The IEMA has members such as Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Target, and most members in the IEMA maintain a "Will not stock AO ratings" policy. This is fine since they work with the ESRB and listen to what the ESRB has to say about the games being given to them. This organization works well with the ESRB and ESA, and can come to support the organizations if necessary!
Second to last, one group that is close to the heart of the games industry, the IGDA, the International Game Developers Association!
http://www.igda.org/
This group of game developers is very well spoken in terms of how the creators of games feel about laws that go against their ability to make games. Whereas the ESA could best represent game publishers, the IGDA would represent the game makers themselves. The forum here is a great place for game designers to share ideas and voice opinions on current hot topics. A great community of minds, and should some Miami lawyer try and pass laws against them... well then they start showing teeth!
And last, one that I don't see much press about, but one that is behind most of my favorite hangouts, the CMP Game Group!
http://www.cmpgame.com/home.html
While not a lobbyist or advocacy group by any means, the CMP Game Group finances and provides several methods of information sharing and acheivement recognition in the game industry. They provide the website Gamasutra.com, publish Game Developers magazine, founded the Game Developers Conference, the GDC, the Game Developers Choice Awards, and the Independent Games Festival. If anyone can provide an accurate resource on what makes games the games they are, the CMP game group can provide it or find the person or persons who can!
So the game industry is not left un-defended. There are plenty of organizations out there to help out people at the ESA and ESRB should they ever come under fire. If you really want to stick it to Jack Thompson, then I suggest becoming a member of some of these organizations and fight with them!
After all, if not for gamers like us, they wouldn't have the power they do now!
~Otaku-Man
For this event, I have prepared a song about the Peaceaholics and their efforts:
*I Feel Pretty begins to play*
I FEEL STUPID!... OH SO STUPID!... I FEEL STUPID, RETARDED, AND DUUUUUUUMB!
I WISH CUPID... DIDN'T TRY... TO GO GET ME... CONCEEEEEEEEEEIVED!
*lalalalala la la la LA LA*
WE ARE MORONS!... SUCH BIG MORONS!... THERE'S NO SHOW ON... WITH MORONS... LIKE WEEEEEE!
SO WE GO ON... AND MAKE STINKS... ON NATIONAL... TEEEVEEEEEEEE!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
SEE THAT STUPID GUY IN THE TV THERE!
WHO COULD THAT DUMB IDIOT BEEEEEEEEEEE?
SUCH A STUPID FACE! SUCH A STUPID SMILE! SUCH A STUPID SIGN! SUCH A STUPID WEEEEEEEEEEE!
*such a stupid we! such a stupid we!*
I HATE ROCKSTAR!... THAT DAMN ROCKSTAR!... THEY THINK WE ARE... MUCH DUMB-"AR"... THAN THEEEEEEEY!
FOR THEY MAAAAAAAKE... MY KIDS GO AND... DOOOOO STUPID THIIIIIIIIIIIIINGS!
*music turns evil sounding*
HAVE YOU SEEN THESE OUTLANDISH NEWSCASTS!?... THEY MAKE US SEEM EVIL AS SIN!
BUT I KNOW THAT ONCE OUR GAME'S RELEASED... IT WILL SELL LIKE HOTCAKES AND THEN WE'LL SURELY WIN!
THOSE PEOPLE ARE DUMB! THEY ARE SO CONTRIVED *lalala*
THEY DO NOT KNOW THIS... PUBLICITY'S FIIIIIIIINE!
BUT WHY DO THEY SEEK... TO SHOW US LIKE FREAKS?! *lalala*
FOR WE ARE JUST GEEKS... WHO LIKE TO PLAY GAAAAAAAMES!
STAY AWAY FROM US... PEACEAHOLICS!... YOU MAKE ALL OF US... CATATONIC!
HONEST AND SURE... THAT THEY'LL HAVE US FINED! *lalala*
I GUESS THEY DON'T KNOW... THEY'RE OUT OF THEIR MIIIIIIIIIIIINDS!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
WE FEEL STUPID!... OH SO STUPID!... THAT WE THINK THAT... THAT ROCKSTAR... SHOULD BUUUUUURRRN!
A COMMITTEEEEEE... SHOULD BE FORMED... TO GO AND SLAN... -DER THEEEEEEMMMMM!
*lalalalala LA LA LA*
SEE THAT EVIL GUY, THAT JACK THOMPSON THERE!? *Jack Thompson! Where?*
WHO COULD THAT SINISTER GUY GO SUUUUEEE? *Huh? Rockstar?*
SUCH AN EVIL GUY! SUCH AN EVIL CASE! SUCH AN EVIL GRIN! SUCH AN EVIL DWEEEEEEEEB!
*such and evil dweeb! such an evil dweeb!*
I FEEL STUPID... OH SO STUPID... WE GOT SO FAR... AND ROCKSTAR... HAS WOOOOOOOOOON!
CAUSE' WE LOOOOOST... IN THE STUPID... LAW APPEALS COOOOOUUUUUURT!
~Otaku-Man
Gamasutra informing the others in the game industry who weren't there who the winners are... I can understand!
BUT DON'T SPOIL IT FOR THE REST OF US! SHHHH!!!
This would be a good example of a time when Invisotext is needed!
~Otaku-Man
Just went through the small section of Dave Jaffe (creator of God of War)'s blog and apparently he agrees with you whole heartedly. I am unaware of the "Deep Throat" you speak of (my bad), but I am curious in hearing about it.
v er/column_gaming/
You are right that Hot Coffee was definitly not, nor never was, the game's selling point. I also think you may have a point that even when standing alone, the Hot Coffee section probably won't fail those three tests.
The problem I see is that it "might" due to ignorance and judgements made by people in high positions of power. The laws never been so flexible these days if you ask me, but one thing that has maintained rock solid is that video games are not going to take it if they are UNjustly persecuted. Right now, I see that there is a good reason to be mad at Rockstar, and while some think this is all political manipulation, I side with the notion that this is a major f*ck up on the part of Rockstar and that they need to own up to the fact that they made a mistake.
They are in the process of owning up, but there are those in the industry like myself:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/21/commentary/game_o
who think that Rockstar needs to be put in its place in order to give credibility and respect to the GAME INDUSTRY and NOT the politicians! In order to get parents to realize that video games are here to stay and that we take matters like this seriously, something needs to be done, and the ESRB has done its part, the FTC is doing its part, and frankly, the matter in Illinois is more pressing than this anyway!
But that still doesn't let Rockstar off the hook for a mistake like this! Here's what I feel is a proper punishment:
1) Offer full refunds to any upset parental units who want to return the game
2) Accept the game rating from M to AO and offer whatever is necessary to show the ratings change (Check)
3) Accept all returned copies from stores that do not want to carry the game anymore (Check)
4) Make new replacement copies with the code removed to get the M rating back (In Progress)
5) Make sure that no undesirable game content sneaks onto their final product again by changing production measures (Check)
6) Take the respective hit in the stock market (Check)
If they made an announcement saying they would give refunds, then I would see the lawsuit as no longer necessary since refunding the money is plenty of punishment in addition to everything else that Rockstar is doing to fix this mess.
Right now, people are blaming politicians, or old ladies, but no one is flat out saying that Rockstar SCREWED UP! I'm saying it and I'm going to keep saying it because I feel that they DID screw up and big time too!
~Otaku-Man
I appreciate the compliment. I've come across this a lot, and have been trying to get articles and quotes from people in the industry to help back up my claims. When there's so many people against what I say, half of me wonders if they are right, while the other half wants to continue playing the Devil's Advocate just to see what reactions I get! :)
Too bad that with all I want to say I can't exactly paraphrase it easily. I really need to get into professional or at least amateur writing or something.
~Otaku-Man
Oh for crying out loud, I'm trying to get INTO the video game business! Why on earth would I want to witch hunt the industry that will eventually be giving me my annual salary?
- 20&res=l
And in case you think that it's just me, the old lady, and a bunch of crazy people, then perhaps I should show you what some of the people who ARE in the industry think!
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3142199
Sure they may not all be in favor of the recent decisions, but if even PENNY ARCADE is miffed at this whole thing, then something is definitly up!
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-07
I particularly find Dave Jaffe's exclamation very interesting. I think I'll go read his blog now.
~Otaku-Man
Well the reason I capitalize some words is to try and put some higher emphasis in them as if I was raising my voice on that word or words out of a speech. Although I do seem to be getting some good feedback on this, so I must be doing something right! :)
Anyway, I see what you mean that only passing one of the three means that this does not classify the game as porn. Fair enough, but that still does not change the fact that the Hot Coffee would have been enough to push the game from an M to an AO rating.
Yes, the content alone does not make the rest of the game bad, I agree, but the content is still rather extreme, especially for an M game. No other M game has graphic sexual acts in it. It may be implied or overheard, but never seen. That's the line that the Hot Coffee crossed, and what has the ESRB and politicians in an uproar.
I am not so much shocked or upset by the content myself, given GTA I almost half expected that, but the fact still remains that GTA gave a false statement in a press release. While they are taking their punches over this, there is no statement from them saying that upset parents who want to return the game for a full refund can do that. Plus, stores that deal in Interactive Entertainment can't take refunds from customers because then the store is handing out cash that they won't be reimbursed for.
This leads to a very sticky situation, and if Rockstar shuffles its feet or tries to tiptoe around it, then they are going to be caught and penalized. I doubt it will be as severe as some might suggest, but something can and will be done, and frankly I say let them have it!
I condemn censorship, but I also condemn bad business practices, which so far Rockstar has been pulling since this whole matter popped up.
Also, if the Hot Coffee were to stand alone without the rest of the GTA game around it, then it would fail those three tests quite easily!
~Otaku-Man
Depends on the game and just how mature my kid is when they reach that age. It all takes different variables that the parent has to consider as opposed to a "I made the rules before you were born and I will never sway from them" kind of situation.
I know a co-worker who has a little boy she adopted shortly after he was born. The little guy is 6 years old right now, but has some issues going on. This little boy can take stuff like Power Rangers and some mild language and violence like in Star Wars Ep. 3. Parents took him to the movies, he sat through it, wasn't scared, nothing the parents minded, and the kid came out okay.
Then there's Harry Potter... the kid can NOT take Harry Potter! It freaks the jeebies out of him! Whenever a scene comes up dealing with Harry losing his parents, the kid bawls like he was just dropped down a well!
It's pretty clear that the kid can take some things, but not others! It's the duty of a parent to make sure to keep an eye on their kid to see how they react to things on TV, in movies, and IN GAMES! A 6-year old is pretty darn young to be playing games, but that doesn't mean that there aren't games for kids that age. Anything Rated E is perfect material!
Younger than 6... better get them an EC!
The point is that whether 6 or 14, it is up to the parent to make the decision based on what they feel their kids can handle. On the flipside, there is also exposing the kid to the movies and games of the past that you think they should know about!
When I have kids, Star Wars is going to be old hat, save for the die hard fans and book authors. That just means that I got to find the original Trilogy, sit down with my kids, and watch it with them. If they can take it at a young age, then I might try other movies like Gremlins to see how they react.
Same thing goes with games, if a kid can listen to language and not talk like a sailor, then I won't have a problem with language. If a kid sees violence and doesn't act it out or seem overly aggressive (or social isolated on the flipside) then I won't have a problem with violence. Sex is the most difficult and taboo of them all, but if a kid is grown up enough to know that skanky/slutty female characters in movies are not what real women are like, then I won't have a problem with that either.
It all depends on my exposing them to popular culture from here and then and seeing how they react. If they find something neat they want to share with me, I'll take the time to see what they want, and if I find it inappropriate, I can tell them WHY I find it to be that way, and see what they think about it.
There is a guy named Prof. Henry Jenkins who is a professor at MIT and studies the effects and results of popular culture on today's youth. He has even presented before Congress when there was a kerfuffle over what drove kids to shoot up their school in Littleton. The fact is that he pointed out that pushing away the popular culture of today is pointless and that we should listen to our kids and not try and push away or shove aside what they like today.
For my generation, video games are the current hot topic and draw a lot of attention because it is a new media. In the future, it may be virtual reality that draws the ire of politicians and so on, claiming THAT is the murder training machine or ruiner of children's innocence!
Since generations of today are now being defined by pop culture (you can define the 70's and 80's pretty easily these days), it is important to defend the culture you have now and to also embrace the pop cultures of the past. Pushing it down and making it underground doesn't do any good. Listening to the kids and sharing your pop culture will do wonders for them. As they grow up, and depending on the kids themselves, they may come understand how to properly treat the opposite sex, how to properly behave in public, and what is and what is not proper speech.
For more on this, try viewing Prof. Jenkin's website. You can find it here:
Hmm, well in that case, I have to say that the Hot Coffee game fits under b. It depicts sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law. The girlfriend is going down on said guy with oral sex. It's also possible to switch positions, and the audio is just as raunchy and fits the mood 100%!
You can question whether it is in a patently offensive way, but that's all up in the air now isn't it? You'd have to go to court and prove that not having a dick being sucked is grounds for not being patently offensive, or that oral sex or any of the other positions shown in the Hot Coffee content are not the sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law. That would be a VERY tricky battle, and require plenty of research, and time and effort to convince the court that the content does not cross the line from R to NC17!
Frankly, I don't think Rockstar wants to waste that much time because deep down I think they know that they goofed up and are doing what it takes to recover. This goof up is not a minor thing, this is a MAJOR screw up of massive proportions! Sure it may have been a small oversight, but the consequences and repercussions have made this small oversight something big by now!
And remember, this is NOT a mod! We are talking about content on the disc, locked OR unlocked! Modding is right out! The fact remains that if the content on the disc was there to begin with, then it is Rockstar's mistake for not catching it and removing it from the final version!
A practice which should be part of ALL software! If something is on the software disc that isn't in the final cut, then it should not be there, whether it is accessible or not!
~Otaku-Man
Riddle me this! How are you going to explain the difference to a judge? :)
~Otaku-Man
Oh CRIPES! First we got the people that are so serious that you can cut the tension with a knife in the Politics section, and now I got people who are pretty laid back and easy going here in YRO area.
5 57.html
...BUT it is on the disc to BEGIN with, and the entire FACT that it is there is why Rockstar is in the wrong here! That content should NEVER... EVER have made it onto the final product! It is STUPID and naieve to think that locked content won't be cracked open, and the only sure fire way to make sure that you have an airtight alibi should something like this arise is to make DAMN sure that the content is not on the disc to begin with!
First of all, while yes I am making assumptions regarding the stance of the grandmother, would you say they are radical assumptions? I would think they are pretty down to earth myself. And as for the ESRB, I am NOT assuming that! That is TRUTH!
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/21/news_6129
This is a direct interview with the President of the ESRB, and she puts it loud and clear here that they were unaware of the Hot Coffee content, and YES it was hidden, YES it requires a patch or a cheat code to unlock...
Rockstar FAILED to do that, and instead of admitting to it to begin with, they tried to COVER IT UP by putting the blame on the person who modded the game. And then when the truth came to light that the content WAS in fact made by Rockstar, then Rockstar took actions, but not until the game industry and politicians came down on them.
ESRB policy is that EVERYTHING, locked or not, that is on the disc MUST be reviewed by a board to determine the rating. If they had revealed this at the ESRB review, they could have easily fixed the problem, and resubmitted it instead of making more than 6 MILLION COPIES that had the content on them!
Yes the porn industry is a large industry, and whether or not it's comparable to games, I have no idea what the numbers are! But that's besides the point! If you're going to get porn, get porn! If you're going to get a game that has porn on it, one way or another, then at least let people KNOW its there.
Rockstar SHOULD care about ratings since the self-imposed ratings are what keeps the government from doing it themselves and that would be MUCH worse!
~Otaku-Man
Rampant hypocrisy you say? If you think THIS is bad, you should see what they have to say over in the politics section with the Hilary Clinton and Rockstar news. Fascinating stuff, really!
Fact is that people need to understand that the meausres being imposed on Rockstar, and the lawsuits themselves, are not being founded on the grounds of censorship. They are being founded on the grounds of potential fraud, and frnakly I think they have a good case going for them. However, people get up in arms and think that "OH SCREW IT" or "OH THIS ISN'T IMPORTANT" and all that jazz. However, I take a more personal stake in all this because if I'm going to go into the industry, it helps to know what certain actions will result in certain conssequences.
Surely you don't think that Rockstar should get away scott free for leaving that content on the disc? Someone left it on there, by accident or on purpose, but one way or another someone has to be fired! What's more, if it was left on purpose, then it puts a negative spin on ALL games now doesn't it!? Will people trust ANY game if they know that companies can go under the radar of their own self regulations?
If those kinds of sentiments become strong enough, then government legislation can come as well and THAT brings about censorship which I detest.
So to make sure that doesn't happen, something has to be done with Rockstar, and we are merely sitting back and watching it from afar. With great interest, yes, but still from afar!
~Otaku-Man
Believe it or not, I drink tea over coffee! :)
This is just my usual length of posts because I usually finding myself writing articles more so than posts. I really got to find a better place to put these things!
~Otaku-Man
MAN! This whole fiasco is bouncing around the topics here more than a superball! Alright, let's get a few things straight:
Let's set aside all concepts that this 85 year old lady is a shriveled old busy body who wants to feel important. That's Jack Thompson you guys are thinking about; wrong person! Let's try putting ourselves in her shoes for a second.
You are the grandmother of a well rounded 14 year old son. He's getting angsty from puberty and general teenager stuff, but he ain't that bad a kid. His parents let him watch some R rated movies, and don't mind the music he listens to either. They are also pretty tolerant about the games he plays.
So you know your grandson wants this game, and let's say that you know at the very least that it is pretty graphic, but IT DOESN'T CONTAIN ANYTHING HE HASN'T SEEN BEFORE! If he's watched R rated movies, he's probably familiar with the violence. If he listens to today's music, then the game's language ought to be no shock to him.
So TRUSTING that there was no softcore or hardcore sex stuff in the game, she buys it and gives it to her grandson as a gift.
THEN you find out that the company slipped in this mini-game that involves graphic/explicit sex, and you realize YOU were the one that bought it for him. Sure it requires using a cheat device and a cheat code, but with a little web surfing and owning said cheat device, it isn't too difficult to unlock if the effort is put into it.
Graphic sex is THE taboo thing that the grandson's parents and yourselves think he is a BIT young for! Especially at the age when he's first discovering girls and you don't want him to get any misconceptions about the fairer sex.
So now you've bought it, found out about it, and took it away from him before he could go and find that cheat to unlock the sex scene. But now you realize that you're $50 in the hole thanks to that, and right now you should be pretty angry!
So whose fault was it? Was it the ratings board for not properly giving the game an AO rating, reserved for games with graphic sex? Well as it turns out, it wasn't the ratings board's fault because they changed the rating after they found out and proved all of this, so now eyes turn to the company.
Rockstar.
Rockstar has pushed the envelope of controversy and taken it all the way to the bank, and right now you are pretty upset that they hoodwinked the ratings board, and you yourself too. I mean if you can't trust the company who makes the thing, then who CAN you trust?
Now, you want your $50 back, and you think that all other parents and grandparents who are in the same boat as you are should get their money back for the copies they don't want anymore! If there's a recall on the game, then it's only fair to refund the money or replace the discs with clean copies!
So, now we have dear Flo here going to court with a lawyer who ISN'T Jack Thompson, and she, as of right now, can have a pretty good case against the company. They did NOT disclose the mini-game to the ratings board, and it went unmentioned until July when it spread like wildfire, and when something spreads that quickly, you know that it can be easily accessed by any tech savvy kid. 14 is a good age where just about any kid can find any information they want on the net without strict parent control. What's more, trying to block finding the cheats is nearly impossible because SEVERAL sites can have this information!
So, in the board of lawsuits...
1) Grandma has a case against Rockstar because they provided millions of discs to parents who did NOT want graphic sex placed before their kids. Violence and language, and sexual suggestiveness is one thing, but graphic sex is THE MOST TABOO thing possible in media. Movies, books, TV, and radio do not have graphic explicit sex material on them. Think about the last time you listened to a porn scene on the radio, watched full blown sex on TV (BY HUMANS!), read a graphically detailed sex scene in a book, and saw a full out s
Actually, I believe Rockstar DID admit that the code was on the discs once the ESRB caught them red-handed by unlocking the mini-game on the PS2 version of the game. Once the proof was there, the ESRB re-rated the game, and Rockstar finally fessed up. If they didn't fess up at all by now, they wouldn't be offering the new AO stickers, and working on new copies of the game with the offending code and material COMPLETELY removed.
Other than that, I agree with you completely. I myself have read through all the news on GamaSutra, GameSpot, and also done some digging on people's personal blogs and websites to fill up on information. I intend to get into the game industry as a tester while working my way up to Creative Director.
First I got to graduate from college which will be in about a year, and then I intend to see if I can get in somewhere! Any tips on the best way to break into the biz?
~Otaku-Man
Oh but she DOES understand what's going on. Of all the politicians that have barked about video games, she has had the most level head out of all of them!
You also forget that the ESRB has a policy where EVERYTHING on the disk, accessible or not, needs to be revealed to them in order to properly give a rating. Like I said elsewhere, there is no way the ESRB can look at EVERY detail in a game to determine a rating because it could take them months or even a year to find all the possible offensive content, or content that requires a rating. That is why it is the PUBLISHER'S RESPONSIBILITY to reveal this material to the ESRB for rating. When the game was submitted, they did NOT tell the ESRB that they had this mini-game which they decided against and locked on the disk.
Also, keep in mind that this is NOT a mod! This was actually developed by Rockstar and not by a modder. Sure they are pissed that a modder went in and breached the EULA to uncover this, and Rockstar is likewise tracking down this person to grab them by the balls and rip them a new one!
BUT, that still does not excuse the fact that they left the content on the disk, accident or not, and that THEY created it and not a mod.
People can mod the Sims all they want, but the fact is that EA did not provide the code, sound, or graphics that some people put in The Sims. This is VERY different from Rockstar's situation! Rockstar's mini-game is NOT a mod, but a locked mini-game that was never supposed to see the light of day, but now that the cat's out of the bag, EVERYONE and their brother knows about it, and can find websites to figure out how to do it. These websites with the instructions (and who are more or less PROFITING from having this information) and the person who found this out in the first place are being sought after by Rockstar, who is now being sought after by the FTC now that the ESRB has caught them and taken action.
It's like a Tom and Jerry cartoon where the dog chases the cat who chases the mouse. In this case, it's:
FTC -> Rockstar Games -> Modder who broke EULA and IP rules
It all comes down to who catches who first to decide what happens next.
EA and the Sims however, they got nothing to hide! All content is made by the modders, so it's just:
EA -> Perverted Modders
Simple as that! No dog to chase down the other two!
~Otaku-Man
On the contrary, I disagree with you. If you FORGOT to remove the images from the server that is hosting the website, you could very well be at risk for leaving them on there in the first place. Leaving that media there for a hacker to LINK to, and not forcefully put ON the server, is simple negligence, and negligence is what often gets you FIRED!
t ory=6045
However, a server is a lot easier of a problem to fix than 6 million hard copies of video game disks. If the images were on the server and needed removing, changing the links in the code back to where they were and also removing the pictures is relatively harmless, and can be covered up if acted upon quickly.
Rockstar however has put out MILLIONS of copies of GTA:San Andreas which equates to MILLIONS of "Servers" that any one modifier can go into and unlock by changing codes with a patch or cheat device. Leaving harmful material like that in a magnitude such as this, is a DISASTER!
Negligence for the server is one thing as that can be forgiven and fixed quickly. Leaving this content on disks KNOWING that people are going to most likely play around with it again and again is simply naieve if they think no one will find that code.
Rockstar has often drawn the eye of politicians and news reporters alike, and this time there is no escape from persecution because even the game industry agrees that Rockstar has gone too far this time.
Besides, the worst lie they told was in that press release stating that they did not make the code, and then later full out admitting it.
Either way, the news has just come out that they are being sued:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?s
This may determine if what they did is considered fraud or not, no?
~Otaku-Man
Ay-Yi-Yi! Why does everyone keep thinking that Hilary Clinton has it out for every instance of violence or sex in video games?! She has only made two statements on the matter, and has never entered into censorship or video game discussions before now! She's not Tipper Gore people!
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Here are her two statements regarding the GTA Hot Coffee fiasco:
First there's her statement regarding this when she first heard about it -
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details
- the legislation proposal seems a little harsh, but ESA President, Doug Lowenstein, began contacting her after that reply, and later when the mini-game was discovered, Hilary was promptly notified, and here's what she had to say then -
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details
- and after reading that, I can see she's upset at Rockstar, and frankly I can't blame her! Rockstar deserves to be investigated by the FTC because they are liable for FRAUD by lying about the Hot Coffee content in a public PRESS release! That's a BIG, SERIOUS NO-NO! As for the ESRB, she gives them a warning to keep an eye out for this so that it doesn't happen again, but she makes no motion to try and replace them, and for all intents and purposes, her legislation proposal may have been dropped!
Frankly, I can't see why people are mad at her! Those in the ESA and the game industry are NOT barking at her for what she has said or what she has done.
Like I said, Hilary is NOT Jack Thompson and NOT Tipper Gore or Joe Lieberman, so it makes NO SENSE to lump her in with them in regards to her feelings towards censorship! She never said ANYTHING about that!
~Otaku-Man
I have had it up to here with people knocking at Hilary Clinton for her role in the whole Hot Coffee/ESRB thing. What shocks me most are the people who start talking politics here more-so than ethical standards discussions and GAMES! I came here because I was under the impression that this was part of the Slashdot games section, but apparently I've been hoodwinked and led to the politics part. (Wait, I AM in the Politics section?! How did THAT happen!?)
But no matter, as I intend to NOT discuss politics or anything of the like here, but speak as a student who has been studying the game industry in pursuit of a career there as a Creative Director.
What's a Creative Director you ask? This is the person who is considered the BRAINS of the game, the author of a book or director of a movie if you will! The game is considered this person's baby and when the credits role, this person is usually the first one listed. Right now, we have several different parties thrown in here for what's going on with this event, but the Creative Director is not one of them! So who is involved in all this:
The Game Makers:
Take-Two Interactive
Rockstar Games
The Political People:
Hilary Clinton
Jack Thompson
Leland Yee
The Video Game Lobbyists:
ESA (Entertainment Software Association)
ESRB (Entertainment Software Ratings Board)
IGDA (Independent Game Developers Association)
VSDA (Video Software Dealers Association)
IEMA (Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association)
Quite a few more people on the side of games than I bet most of the folks here expected! Not surprised though as they are usually very quiet in regards to their actions and rarely peak on the headlines, if in the news at all!
But they are there, and they have been challenging legislation left and right in regards to censorship and overly strict legislation on video games.
Hot Coffee is not the current fuss that has the attention of these groups.
The current fuss that's going on is the law in Illinois that requires state enforced labels on video games and places a large fine on stores that sell state-considered "Mature" games to minors. This law is slated to go into effect on the first of 2006, but that gives lots of time for the groups to challenge the law, and most likely win!
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?st ory=6018
Already similar laws have been overturned in Washington State, Indiana, and Missouri. The laws have been marked as "Unconstitutional" and violate first amendment rights. Rightly so, since treating video games different from movies, books, comics, and television is a major hypocrisy. So why video games? Because it's the newest media to earn the ire of the government because of its "new-ness" and the lack of knowledge held by people in power.
That's not to say that there are no politicians on the side of video games. Quite a few listen to the ESA, ESRB, and take measures as necessary.
Hilary Clinton is NOT an avid anti-video game fanatic like Jack Thompson is. One look at her website, and you can see that she focuses on lots of topics regarding human well-being, and does a lot for her New York constituents. But then what DID she say regarding the video game business then?
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details. cfm?id=240603&&
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details. cfm?id=241138&&
And that's all she wrote! The fact that this is ALL she has to say on the matter is actually COMFORTING to me as a gamer! She does NOT claim that the ESRB is a faulty institution, and applauds it for taking action on GTA:SA.
I AGREE with the ESRB with their ratin
Okay, THAT did not turn out as well as I had hoped for. Apparently, HTML and Plain Old Text is something I NEED to pay more attention to! Let's try that again:
Okay, from what I've been reading here, NOBODY has clicked the link to read the FULL article!
If they did, then they would know that the Entertainment Software Association, the ESA, has already filed suit AGAINST this law in conjunction with the Video Software Dealers Association and the Illinois Retail Merchants Association! AND the law is not slated to go into effect until January 1st, 2006! That's practically SIX MONTHES to overturn the law and label it as unconstitutional.
Similar attempts like this have failed in Indiana, Washington state, and Missouri! It's always been attempts made on the state level, and never on the national level! The national level is quite happy with the ESRB, and the recent announcement of the FTC investigating whether or not Rockstar INTENTIONALLY deceived the ESRB is a BIG PLUS for the ESRB in terms of governmental RESPECT!
And for those nay-sayers that think a law like this ISN'T harmful, let's put a few things in perspective:
1) A law the imposes state regulated stickers and labels on games SERIOUSLY undermines the authority of the ESRB! Plus, there is no guarantee that whoever is in charge of state regulation will act the same way the ESRB does! We may see FOOTBALL games marked as 18+ because of the "Violent" content! Next thing you know, Barbie Horse Adventures may be rated T for Teen! This isn't actually a stretch here! Anyone remember the early days of anime when they had no ratings? They all had those 18+ stickers, even the harmless ones like Nadia: Secret of Blue Water!
2) Fining retailers and so on is one thing, but that does NOT make for good parenting! It is the parent's responsibility to monitor what their child is playing or watching AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! The parents are in control of whether their kids have money to buy the games, THEY are also the ones who usually go out and buy them, and if they are DUMB enough to let their kids play GTA:SA KNOWING the GTA history that they've made for themselves AND LATER going on a witch-hunt after the ESRB, ESA, and other FUNCTIONING BODIES of video game ratings and policy making!
That's just STUPID!
Banning something will NOT make it go away. Prohibition did NOT stop people from drinking, and banning games is the same thing. People will STILL find ways to play, and it will become an underground operation just like it is in Malaysia or something.
3) Many of you are not game developers! I am currently a student who is taking an IT major with a concentration on game development. One of the things I WANT to do is express my ideas, stories, and creativity in a video game, which has been my dream since 2nd grade!
If new laws regulating what CAN or CAN'T be in a game are passed, then that SEVERELY restricts the developers' ability to create good game content and also tell a good story. The game God of War, for example, is credited as being the idea of one Dave Jaffe, who is considered the "Brains" of the game. It's his baby, more or less, because he is the CREATIVE DIRECTOR, the highly coveted position in the game industry where you have the final say on what does or what doesn't go into a game (with a vote by all the other developers as well. Can't be a tyrant here folks!)
God of War is brutal with medusa decapitations, Cyclops eye gouging, harpy wing tearing, and plenty of blood and guts! Not to mention the two VERY topless ladies at the end of the Hydra section of the game. But, with the way it is told and the story that wraps around it, you can see why the brutality FITS Kratos' character, and how even the topless women fit in with an ancient Greek setting!
With higher restrictions on content, then the developers have to censor themselves to get their games out to the people!
THIS is where the free speech card is played, because games are not just games! They are no l
Okay, from what I've been reading here, NOBODY has clicked the link to read the FULL article! If they did, then they would know that the Entertainment Software Association, the ESA, has already filed suit AGAINST this law in conjunction with the Video Software Dealers Association and the Illinois Retail Merchants Association! AND the law is not slated to go into effect until January 1st, 2006! That's practically SIX MONTHES to overturn the law and label it as unconstitutional. Similar attempts like this have failed in Indiana, Washington state, and Missouri! It's always been attempts made on the state level, and never on the national level! The national level is quite happy with the ESRB, and the recent announcement of the FTC investigating whether or not Rockstar INTENTIONALLY deceived the ESRB is a BIG PLUS for the ESRB in terms of governmental RESPECT! And for those nay-sayers that think a law like this ISN'T harmful, let's put a few things in perspective: 1) A law the imposes state regulated stickers and labels on games SERIOUSLY undermines the authority of the ESRB! Plus, there is no guarantee that whoever is in charge of state regulation will act the same way the ESRB does! We may see FOOTBALL games marked as 18+ because of the "Violent" content! Next thing you know, Barbie Horse Adventures may be rated T for Teen! This isn't actually a stretch here! Anyone remember the early days of anime when they had no ratings? They all had those 18+ stickers, even the harmless ones like Nadia: Secret of Blue Water! 2) Fining retailers and so on is one thing, but that does NOT make for good parenting! It is the parent's responsibility to monitor what their child is playing or watching AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE! The parents are in control of whether their kids have money to buy the games, THEY are also the ones who usually go out and buy them, and if they are DUMB enough to let their kids play GTA:SA KNOWING the GTA history that they've made for themselves AND LATER going on a witch-hunt after the ESRB, ESA, and other FUNCTIONING BODIES of video game ratings and policy making! That's just STUPID! Banning something will NOT make it go away. Prohibition did NOT stop people from drinking, and banning games is the same thing. People will STILL find ways to play, and it will become an underground operation just like it is in Malaysia or something. 3) Many of you are not game developers! I am currently a student who is taking an IT major with a concentration on game development. One of the things I WANT to do is express my ideas, stories, and creativity in a video game, which has been my dream since 2nd grade! If new laws regulating what CAN or CAN'T be in a game are passed, then that SEVERELY restricts the developers' ability to create good game content and also tell a good story. The game God of War, for example, is credited as being the idea of one Dave Jaffe, who is considered the "Brains" of the game. It's his baby, more or less, because he is the CREATIVE DIRECTOR, the highly coveted position in the game industry where you have the final say on what does or what doesn't go into a game (with a vote by all the other developers as well. Can't be a tyrant here folks!) God of War is brutal with medusa decapitations, Cyclops eye gouging, harpy wing tearing, and plenty of blood and guts! Not to mention the two VERY topless ladies at the end of the Hydra section of the game. But, with the way it is told and the story that wraps around it, you can see why the brutality FITS Kratos' character, and how even the topless women fit in with an ancient Greek setting! With higher restrictions on content, then the developers have to censor themselves to get their games out to the people! THIS is where the free speech card is played, because games are not just games! They are no longer the "shoot Alien A, get 100 points" kind of games from the early days! These are now games that can tell a unique and compelling story, and limiting what can or can't go into a game by government legislation will hamper the market and