Who renders on the same workstation on which they read email?? Thats just crazy talk.
With that being said, forthcoming "Troll" mod and all, I've been running vista enterprise for over a month now as my primary workstation (Dell Inspiron 9400) OS, including watching and creating all sorts of movies, from fraps of EvE to home movies. No DRM anywhere, no pesky "trouble bits" no degraded resolutions or lowered bitrates. Hell I AM making & watching movies on the same workstation as I read email - only doing it for fun, so no $.5M clips here. No undesired DRM either.
So, to the OP: My experience is "No DRM means no DRM" regardless of what the fud-monkies say. If you are already planning on moving to vista and this is one of those dealbreaker questions, relying on slashdot is like relying on James Bakker for sex advice: You know he's done it all but you won't get the straight scoop. Gotta try it yourself and see how it works for you how YOU will use it.
Adding "style" or making something work "better" isn't innovation. Hear it all the time "macs innovate, windows imitate" - its an overflowing sack of repugnant ignorance - BOTH innovate and both imitate.
High-level combat in EVE (or most of the alternatives, but ESPECIALLY in EVE) has at best a passing relation to tactics and strategy, it's an exercise in brute-force solutions to logistical problems, with the results being determined by which group has spent the most time preparing for the conflict. "My corp has spent more time buying tricked-out ships and finding rare parts for them, playing with spreadsheets to find the optimal damage loadout, and planning to gank you when you're not expecting it, so we crush your souls. PWNED!"
To some extent this is true - there are many cases in which numerical superiority or better equipment rules the battlefield.
However, with better tactics and skilled pilots (not just in-game character skills but player skills) a numerically inferior force can truly obliterate numerically superior opponents. I've been involved in fights where we have 10 pilots on our side and 30 on the opposing side, yet we come out with 3-5 losses vs 10-15 kills and we hold the battlefield. Tactics aren't necessary - most of the time just showing up with more ships will ensure victory - but if you want to engage greater numbers they are crucial and differentiate a mediocre pilot/fleet commander from the exceptional ones.
On the equipment side, there is some pretty uber equipment and many times it can preordain an engagement's outcome. With that being said, even the multi-billion isk capital ships can be destroyed by a few battleships with the proper tactics. I've been involved in killing several carriers and a dread while only having battleships and smaller support on our side, so I know this to be true.
In my experience, EvE allows tactics to rule the field more often than in any other mmorpg. THIS flexibility and reliance on player smarts vs character skills is what has kept me in the game with 2 accounts for more than 2 and a half years.
this isn't accurate (the spinner component is separate but linked and spins independently.) It does sound a LOT like an explanation for fixed wheels on vehicles _appearing_ to rotate in reverse of the motion of the vehicle travelling at certain speeds. Its the _appearance_ that matters. In TFA the lead researcher himself said nothing was really moving faster than light, but something (phase peak) _appeared_ to, to the extent they chose to measure. I know its not the same (phase peak vs strobe action) but the effect _appears_ similar:)
vonage allows me unlimited calls free within the us, canada, uk and several other european nations at any time, day or night, for $25 a month using a regular handset. Compare that with long distance and international charges on your cell to a non-network phone, and tell me whether or not that is > $0. If it is, Vonage is cheaper.
Incidentally, I took my vonage router with me to Indonesia a few months ago. When I had > 30kb/s upstream it was spectacular - using the same phone number, for the same $$ as if I were sitting where I am right now. NO cell company will do that. Unfortunately, the 500kb/s dsl wasn't up to snuff during Jakarta business hours - 64kb/s upstream was its rating and I was lucky if I got 5kb/s up AND down during business hours:)
Also incidentally, there isn't any Vonage capable hardware for easy purchase over there. I found this out the hard way after plugging in at a hotel business office:
Office Admin: Sure, sir, feel free to plug right in Me: Uh, this IS 110v right? Office Admin: Sure, sir, it most definitely is! Me:/me looks at the 3 prong radial plug suspiciously Me: You are absolutely SURE this is 110v? Office Admin: Sure, sir, it most definitely is 110 volts! Me: Uh, ok. Its on your tab if it blows *grin*
Plug it in. Admire puff of smoke that simultaneously expands from both the ac adapter and the router itself.
Me: Uh, can I talk to the hotel manager on duty?
I contacted every retailer I could contact. I even phoned some of the distributors of network gear. NOONE had Vonage capable equipment in Indonesia or Singapore.
To be fair, the hotel agreed to reimburse me for the purchase of a new router and comp'd me connectivity and long distance for the short duration of my stay. They also allowed me to use their shipping account, then hand-delivered the router to my house in Jakarta in the middle of the night. Most definitely, the hotel's service was spectacular in rectifying an honest mistake on their part.
FWIW that "Next" button is just over to the right under firefox. I was able to complete all of the forms under firefox no issues whatsoever, except that little bit.
Some directories have permission inheritance turned off. Doing what you suggest wouldn't work without additional ACEs set for %systemdrive%\documents and settings, %systemdrive%\program files & %systemdrive%\windows among numerous others.
Some directories and files SHOULDN'T allow users to read, write, modify etc - %systemroot%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts & lmhosts, %systemdrive%\system32\config & more
Many applications and capabilities require access to the registry for configuration info, real time data etc. Setting fs perms don't address this aspect. Even if you did something similar for the registry, you'd break far, far more than you'd "fix", as well as open up (more) drastic security holes
its not as simple a solution as you apparently think. I understand, obviously coming from the limited world of Owner, Group and Other, that you probably don't have a very firm grasp on the concepts, but ignorance doesn't grant you right to slag on folks that aren't as ignorant.
P.S. Windows desktop system fail at 10 clients and couldn't be used on this setup. Although a non-technical user might try and think it works. Might even take them sometime to realize their connection errors only arise when more than 10 pcs are on at the same time.
Zeinfeld said:
"A law office with ten employees using Windows XP is going to buy a Windows server, end of story."
He wasn't suggesting that the company would try to use XP as a server. MS' server OSs don't have that 10 concurrent connection limit. Your statement is correct, but not relevant:)
"Most likely, this little law office isn't going to have an IT guy and most of the day-to-day will fall on the office manager"
False. This shop will not have an IT guy on the payroll but they will certainly have a local tech shop that takes care of their needs. They probably won't have an Office Manager but their probably will be a secretary that fills that role and they all tell about their problems. She in turn will call the computer guys.
You're probably right about this
"In that situation, the cheapy solution makes absolutely no sense whatsoever."
Using Samba is less expensive. But in this scenerio the quality of the solution is what makes samba a superior choice.
"Superior" in what sense? If it can be up sharing files all the time, thats great! However, if Joe Lawyer also needs his calendar tracked with his employees, his resources tracked (who is using the projector? Who is using the conference room and for what?) etc etc Samba falls flat. Superiority is not just "do one thing really, really well" in this case. Superiority is minimum use of resources for the maximum amount of functionality while minimizing interruptions.
"they can have a _supported_ solution"
Surely you don't suggest they spend hours on the phone with Microsoft trying to add a user to the server? Of course not, they shoot an email to the computer guy. He charges them 50 bucks and sets up the new computer, configures it with all the software they use, puts it on the network and maps network drives/priters. And also adds the user to the server. This involves about 30 seconds of their time instead of hours.
Of course I don't suggest spending hours on the phone learning to do something trivial. However, when their Exchange Calendar doesn't work properly they have someone authoritative to call, rather than hope their local computer support peeps know how to recover Sunbird's functionality. God forbid they try using gcal:)
Regarding setting up the new computer, they could also just, well, join the computer to the domain. Assuming AD is already configured, they get all of the software, all of the lockdown configurations, all of the administrative access/restrictions INCLUDING the drives and printers with that single step. To add new computers with the exact same configuration just, well, join em to the domain:)
"Instead of managing 11 machines' passwords, she manages the domain."
That was 12 users. And in AD you still have to manage users and passwords. In a 12 user setup AD offers no significant advantages at all, it simply brings a plethora of issues related to DNS. If domain security is needed due to interoffice needs then samba handles that quite nicely.
The point is, instead of managing _passwords_ on 12 different boxes, they are managed in one place. If a user needs to log in to 4 of those 12 boxes, rather than change that user's password on all 4 individually, leaving her open to misspellings etc, its done just once in the domain, taking effect for all of the boxes and services to which she is granted access.
In a single server configuration, how is DNS an issue? As long as it is set up to allow dynamic registrations and all ip addressing makes sense, it'll chug along. Even if there IS a dns issue, thats where the "_supported_" portion of my statement comes in to play:) Following the assumption they have a tech shop helping to support them, its likely their tech shop peeps are somewhat cognizant of dns as well.
"This includes homogenizing the configuration of all the workstation and all the other benefits of having centralized control of configuration, authorization and authentication."
In a 12 user setup it takes longer to configure these services than it does to configure the individual machines. Espec
Its a matter of ease of deployment and use. Most likely, this little law office isn't going to have an IT guy and most of the day-to-day will fall on the office manager, which most likely doesn't know SaMBa from doing the Rumba. In that situation, the cheapy solution makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
With the addition of a single server running Small Business edition, includes a bunch of useful stuff - Exchange, ISA, SQL etc, they can have a _supported_ solution covering their current needs and many/most of their near-future needs. Plus, with the addition of AD, reduce the amount of effort that goes in to managing the day-to-day stuff. Instead of managing 11 machines' passwords, she manages the domain. This includes homogenizing the configuration of all the workstation and all the other benefits of having centralized control of configuration, authorization and authentication. Workgroup isn't a "solution" in any sense:)
Some will argue that SBS is harder to manage for the general user wearing the admin cape - true, but how much easier is it than trying to manage a linux server for them?
Well now I've got some advice for you, little buddy. Before you point your finger you should know that _I'M_ the man, and if I'm the man then you're the man and he's the man as well so you can point that fscking finger up your lsass!
So if you ask a software vendor whether it's better to buy expensive hardware or to save money on hardware and install more copies of software, what's he going to say? Even if you had a site license he'd still say that, because guess what... he's a software vendor. He's not in the business of solving your problems with hardware.
Ask a mechanic if it's better to get your oil changed every 5000 miles. He'll say "why, yes of course!" He'll make money on the deal, but it IS truly better for your car, dependent upon how you drive your car. Ok, so if a software vendor says it's better to have redundant copies of the software, guess what? It IS actually better, from a redundancy standpoint, if your application requires maximum availability!
The Flying Spagetti Monster has more credibility to it though (we *know* spagetti exists - what more proof do you need?).
It's true, as evidenced by the dramatic drop in the number of pirates over the course of the past century!
In all seriousness though, people will take which facts and "facts" present themselves and support their position, regardless of how tenuous a manner, then bend them to their beliefs anyway. Anything which outright controverts their belief is either bent to fit their view or disregarded as propaganda. God, I hate zealots (pun intended;) )
What exactly is the newly merged company doing? Is it supposed to be geeky-cool? Is it doing something totally unrelated to computers or technology? Is the IT infrastructure just a means to an end - users getting their work done?
If the company is trying to do something geeky-cool, you may be best served by using a "cobbled-together" open source architecture. It'll show your boy's and girl's prowess on the console and could be used as a Hercules-on-a-pedestal showcase for your talents.
On the other hand, in either of the other two cases, you're most likely going to be using MS on the desktop and your people aren't going to care that you've implemented OpenLDAP as long as their Word, Excel and Outlook work. In this situation, as has already been noted, you'd probably be best served by implementing Windows Server 2003 + Active Directory. An additional benefit is the expertise is relatively cheap and available, and may already be in-house with your amalgamated IT staff.
While I'm happy with their product, there is one more feature they could provide which would really thrill me -- allowing me to use my mobile phone to make calls over my VoIP line... make sense?
Hmmm a voip gateway? Might be useful. I know there are voip over 802.11{b,g,n} "cell" handsets being developed, maybe it would be an interesting bridge from wired voip to wireless voip...
For those that ask if voip is "worth it," the answer is "it depends."
For me, it makes sense. Even though Vonage doesn't yet have Hawaii area codes, I'm able to maintain a San Francisco phone number for my coworkers and maintain a US phone number while travelling internationally. There are numerous other features that make it truly useful.
I recently spent a month and a half in Jakarta and for 1 month of that time, I was working. I had DSL and was able to plug in my voip router and get cracking right away. The fact that voip is access-agnostic meant I was able to carry my voice accessibility with me without racking up an enormous bill. I didn't depend on CDMA, TDMA, GSM or any of their child technologies and didn't need to pay any sort of roaming fees. Barring an unfortunate incident at the JW Marriot involving a miscommunication of the voltage through a certain plug, I had no issues using my voip router while there at all. Well, ok there were issues with incredible network congestion during Jakarta business hours but I was working EST hours:) 10Kb/s up and down is NOT sufficient.
Unfortunately, it's not just time to get on the learning curve that's relevant to one's ability to switch. There's a certain amount of flexibility of mind that is critical to learning a completely different environment and THIS is the big limiting factor to Linux' desktop penetration.
People generally learn tasks in one of two ways:
Complete the task by rote
Learn the underlying systems and the capabilities that allow for the task's completion
The vast majority of business employees fall in to the first category. When something - ANYTHING, even a missing icon - changes on their workstation they are immobilized. Immobilized workers are obviously inefficient workers.
Most grandmas and other people also fall in to that first category. If grandma can't find that Outlook icon on her desktop she may not know of the other methods through which she could read her mail, so the fact that Madge may not be able to make afternoon tea and the following Bingo extravaganza goes unread.
With that being said, just because someone is a rote learner doesn't mean they are incapable of switching. It just means that someone needs to walk them through the steps to read their email again. It may take several repetitions and a copy of the process on paper taped to their lcd, but they'd learn.
However, trying to learn an entire new series of applications as well as the basic procedures (how do I log in? How do I turn the computer off? How do I lock the workstation? etc) in this rote manner provides a significant impediment to deployment on any sort of a large scale. The difficulties make it such that even trying to teach grandma how to turn on the computer, read her mail, then shut down the computer can become a pain in the rear, dependent upon the grandma, of course.
The second category of task-learner is the minority - those that have the agility of mind to learn the underlying system and it's functions in service of learning the tasks. For these learners, the curve is still steep, but they are willing to learn how the system works which gives them flexibility in times of crisis (Oh no! The Mail icon is gone whatever shall I do?! Maybe I'll check via webmail instead.) They are far too rare, unfortunately.
/me goes back to teaching grandma how to find new recipes on the web
Slashdot Mirror
Who renders on the same workstation on which they read email?? Thats just crazy talk.
With that being said, forthcoming "Troll" mod and all, I've been running vista enterprise for over a month now as my primary workstation (Dell Inspiron 9400) OS, including watching and creating all sorts of movies, from fraps of EvE to home movies. No DRM anywhere, no pesky "trouble bits" no degraded resolutions or lowered bitrates. Hell I AM making & watching movies on the same workstation as I read email - only doing it for fun, so no $.5M clips here. No undesired DRM either.
So, to the OP: My experience is "No DRM means no DRM" regardless of what the fud-monkies say. If you are already planning on moving to vista and this is one of those dealbreaker questions, relying on slashdot is like relying on James Bakker for sex advice: You know he's done it all but you won't get the straight scoop. Gotta try it yourself and see how it works for you how YOU will use it.
Adding "style" or making something work "better" isn't innovation. Hear it all the time "macs innovate, windows imitate" - its an overflowing sack of repugnant ignorance - BOTH innovate and both imitate.
To some extent this is true - there are many cases in which numerical superiority or better equipment rules the battlefield.
However, with better tactics and skilled pilots (not just in-game character skills but player skills) a numerically inferior force can truly obliterate numerically superior opponents. I've been involved in fights where we have 10 pilots on our side and 30 on the opposing side, yet we come out with 3-5 losses vs 10-15 kills and we hold the battlefield. Tactics aren't necessary - most of the time just showing up with more ships will ensure victory - but if you want to engage greater numbers they are crucial and differentiate a mediocre pilot/fleet commander from the exceptional ones.
On the equipment side, there is some pretty uber equipment and many times it can preordain an engagement's outcome. With that being said, even the multi-billion isk capital ships can be destroyed by a few battleships with the proper tactics. I've been involved in killing several carriers and a dread while only having battleships and smaller support on our side, so I know this to be true.
In my experience, EvE allows tactics to rule the field more often than in any other mmorpg. THIS flexibility and reliance on player smarts vs character skills is what has kept me in the game with 2 accounts for more than 2 and a half years.
this isn't accurate (the spinner component is separate but linked and spins independently.) It does sound a LOT like an explanation for fixed wheels on vehicles _appearing_ to rotate in reverse of the motion of the vehicle travelling at certain speeds. Its the _appearance_ that matters. In TFA the lead researcher himself said nothing was really moving faster than light, but something (phase peak) _appeared_ to, to the extent they chose to measure. I know its not the same (phase peak vs strobe action) but the effect _appears_ similar :)
vonage allows me unlimited calls free within the us, canada, uk and several other european nations at any time, day or night, for $25 a month using a regular handset. Compare that with long distance and international charges on your cell to a non-network phone, and tell me whether or not that is > $0. If it is, Vonage is cheaper.
:)
/me looks at the 3 prong radial plug suspiciously
Incidentally, I took my vonage router with me to Indonesia a few months ago. When I had > 30kb/s upstream it was spectacular - using the same phone number, for the same $$ as if I were sitting where I am right now. NO cell company will do that. Unfortunately, the 500kb/s dsl wasn't up to snuff during Jakarta business hours - 64kb/s upstream was its rating and I was lucky if I got 5kb/s up AND down during business hours
Also incidentally, there isn't any Vonage capable hardware for easy purchase over there. I found this out the hard way after plugging in at a hotel business office:
Office Admin: Sure, sir, feel free to plug right in
Me: Uh, this IS 110v right?
Office Admin: Sure, sir, it most definitely is!
Me:
Me: You are absolutely SURE this is 110v?
Office Admin: Sure, sir, it most definitely is 110 volts!
Me: Uh, ok. Its on your tab if it blows *grin*
Plug it in. Admire puff of smoke that simultaneously expands from both the ac adapter and the router itself.
Me: Uh, can I talk to the hotel manager on duty?
I contacted every retailer I could contact. I even phoned some of the distributors of network gear. NOONE had Vonage capable equipment in Indonesia or Singapore.
To be fair, the hotel agreed to reimburse me for the purchase of a new router and comp'd me connectivity and long distance for the short duration of my stay. They also allowed me to use their shipping account, then hand-delivered the router to my house in Jakarta in the middle of the night. Most definitely, the hotel's service was spectacular in rectifying an honest mistake on their part.
FWIW that "Next" button is just over to the right under firefox. I was able to complete all of the forms under firefox no issues whatsoever, except that little bit.
its not as simple a solution as you apparently think. I understand, obviously coming from the limited world of Owner, Group and Other, that you probably don't have a very firm grasp on the concepts, but ignorance doesn't grant you right to slag on folks that aren't as ignorant.
You're probably right about this
"Superior" in what sense? If it can be up sharing files all the time, thats great! However, if Joe Lawyer also needs his calendar tracked with his employees, his resources tracked (who is using the projector? Who is using the conference room and for what?) etc etc Samba falls flat. Superiority is not just "do one thing really, really well" in this case. Superiority is minimum use of resources for the maximum amount of functionality while minimizing interruptions.
Of course I don't suggest spending hours on the phone learning to do something trivial. However, when their Exchange Calendar doesn't work properly they have someone authoritative to call, rather than hope their local computer support peeps know how to recover Sunbird's functionality. God forbid they try using gcal :)
:)
Regarding setting up the new computer, they could also just, well, join the computer to the domain. Assuming AD is already configured, they get all of the software, all of the lockdown configurations, all of the administrative access/restrictions INCLUDING the drives and printers with that single step. To add new computers with the exact same configuration just, well, join em to the domain
The point is, instead of managing _passwords_ on 12 different boxes, they are managed in one place. If a user needs to log in to 4 of those 12 boxes, rather than change that user's password on all 4 individually, leaving her open to misspellings etc, its done just once in the domain, taking effect for all of the boxes and services to which she is granted access.
:) Following the assumption they have a tech shop helping to support them, its likely their tech shop peeps are somewhat cognizant of dns as well.
In a single server configuration, how is DNS an issue? As long as it is set up to allow dynamic registrations and all ip addressing makes sense, it'll chug along. Even if there IS a dns issue, thats where the "_supported_" portion of my statement comes in to play
Its a matter of ease of deployment and use. Most likely, this little law office isn't going to have an IT guy and most of the day-to-day will fall on the office manager, which most likely doesn't know SaMBa from doing the Rumba. In that situation, the cheapy solution makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
:)
With the addition of a single server running Small Business edition, includes a bunch of useful stuff - Exchange, ISA, SQL etc, they can have a _supported_ solution covering their current needs and many/most of their near-future needs. Plus, with the addition of AD, reduce the amount of effort that goes in to managing the day-to-day stuff. Instead of managing 11 machines' passwords, she manages the domain. This includes homogenizing the configuration of all the workstation and all the other benefits of having centralized control of configuration, authorization and authentication. Workgroup isn't a "solution" in any sense
Some will argue that SBS is harder to manage for the general user wearing the admin cape - true, but how much easier is it than trying to manage a linux server for them?
Well now I've got some advice for you, little buddy. Before you point your finger you should know that _I'M_ the man, and if I'm the man then you're the man and he's the man as well so you can point that fscking finger up your lsass!
RHCE flings pen-filled pocket protector at the lcd panel of the Windows Server 2003 box' monitor
yup, dangerous :)
Ask a mechanic if it's better to get your oil changed every 5000 miles. He'll say "why, yes of course!" He'll make money on the deal, but it IS truly better for your car, dependent upon how you drive your car. Ok, so if a software vendor says it's better to have redundant copies of the software, guess what? It IS actually better, from a redundancy standpoint, if your application requires maximum availability!
It's true, as evidenced by the dramatic drop in the number of pirates over the course of the past century!
In all seriousness though, people will take which facts and "facts" present themselves and support their position, regardless of how tenuous a manner, then bend them to their beliefs anyway. Anything which outright controverts their belief is either bent to fit their view or disregarded as propaganda. God, I hate zealots (pun intended ;) )
If the company is trying to do something geeky-cool, you may be best served by using a "cobbled-together" open source architecture. It'll show your boy's and girl's prowess on the console and could be used as a Hercules-on-a-pedestal showcase for your talents.
On the other hand, in either of the other two cases, you're most likely going to be using MS on the desktop and your people aren't going to care that you've implemented OpenLDAP as long as their Word, Excel and Outlook work. In this situation, as has already been noted, you'd probably be best served by implementing Windows Server 2003 + Active Directory. An additional benefit is the expertise is relatively cheap and available, and may already be in-house with your amalgamated IT staff.
Good luck!
While I'm happy with their product, there is one more feature they could provide which would really thrill me -- allowing me to use my mobile phone to make calls over my VoIP line... make sense? Hmmm a voip gateway? Might be useful. I know there are voip over 802.11{b,g,n} "cell" handsets being developed, maybe it would be an interesting bridge from wired voip to wireless voip...
For me, it makes sense. Even though Vonage doesn't yet have Hawaii area codes, I'm able to maintain a San Francisco phone number for my coworkers and maintain a US phone number while travelling internationally. There are numerous other features that make it truly useful.
I recently spent a month and a half in Jakarta and for 1 month of that time, I was working. I had DSL and was able to plug in my voip router and get cracking right away. The fact that voip is access-agnostic meant I was able to carry my voice accessibility with me without racking up an enormous bill. I didn't depend on CDMA, TDMA, GSM or any of their child technologies and didn't need to pay any sort of roaming fees. Barring an unfortunate incident at the JW Marriot involving a miscommunication of the voltage through a certain plug, I had no issues using my voip router while there at all. Well, ok there were issues with incredible network congestion during Jakarta business hours but I was working EST hours :) 10Kb/s up and down is NOT sufficient.
People generally learn tasks in one of two ways:
The vast majority of business employees fall in to the first category. When something - ANYTHING, even a missing icon - changes on their workstation they are immobilized. Immobilized workers are obviously inefficient workers.
Most grandmas and other people also fall in to that first category. If grandma can't find that Outlook icon on her desktop she may not know of the other methods through which she could read her mail, so the fact that Madge may not be able to make afternoon tea and the following Bingo extravaganza goes unread.
With that being said, just because someone is a rote learner doesn't mean they are incapable of switching. It just means that someone needs to walk them through the steps to read their email again. It may take several repetitions and a copy of the process on paper taped to their lcd, but they'd learn.
However, trying to learn an entire new series of applications as well as the basic procedures (how do I log in? How do I turn the computer off? How do I lock the workstation? etc) in this rote manner provides a significant impediment to deployment on any sort of a large scale. The difficulties make it such that even trying to teach grandma how to turn on the computer, read her mail, then shut down the computer can become a pain in the rear, dependent upon the grandma, of course.
The second category of task-learner is the minority - those that have the agility of mind to learn the underlying system and it's functions in service of learning the tasks. For these learners, the curve is still steep, but they are willing to learn how the system works which gives them flexibility in times of crisis (Oh no! The Mail icon is gone whatever shall I do?! Maybe I'll check via webmail instead.) They are far too rare, unfortunately.