None the less, ZiffDavis publications are but one arm of Microsofts PR division. Slinging is shit to IT managers or Home users is still slinging shit. IMO
Damn straight. I'm with you because until they show repeatedly that they can COMPETE they get no $$ from me. Stopping competition by paying customers to use MSFT products ( IE, WinCE, etc ), licensing a product with no intention of following the license agreement ( Java, Spyglass, etc ), and forcing applications on OEMs ( IE, MediaPlayer, etc ) is just plain bad for users, developers, and business customers and partners. I wouldn't do the castration bit but I've quit a couple of jobs because it would mean developing for a version of MSFT Windows. Locutus
Uptime can be applied to other things besides single machines. Why do you thing MSFT NEEDS clustering in Windows? So they can get a server (group servers providing a SERVICE) to provide more then 70% uptime. The uptime of the slashdot.org website makes plenty sense to me.
Seems like it might be a better name for the chip formerly known a Merced. Unless performance improves dramatically it is going to look like the ~1994 comparison of the PPC and the P6. Isn't AMD going to bring out the K8 next year at 64bits?
Those yaks won't take any calls if you don't use their OS. One of their servers (smtp) was not fuctioning properly and the guy told me he couldn't help because I run Linux (and OS/2). When I asked what he would tell me IF I was on Wintendo, he said he would have me reset the modem, reinstall my email package, and reboot Wintendo. All this even though I told him I could GET email, browse the web, ftp and telnet worked fine. MS has control of RoadRunner so hopefully this deal will be better for its users.
My take on Dell selling Linux is that Bill Gates most likely talked with Mike Dell and said his lawyers need a big OEM showing that they are selling non-MSFT OS's. In comes Dell and look, you have to pay extra for the Linux machine. A MSFT mouse you say? I'm not surprised that MSFT mice are your only choice because MSFT wants their name on that box somehow. I say that Dell will drop Linux when the DOJ vs MSFT case is finished. Really now, Bill and Mike are buddies and Mike stands up for Bill at any chance he gets. I'd expect Linux on desktops from Gateway, Compaq and IBM way before Dell. So Dell is a lion in sheeps clothing if you ask me.
Oh, I forgot that there exists no other wordprocessors but Microsoft Word. NOT! There are a number of wordprocessors available and some are for many platforms. I'm not going to list them all here, that would be a waste of time.
This could be a short term attack on Java. I know of a few companies using Java to get cross-platform to Windows. This little *nix on Windows could bring the *nix apps over and stall the ports to Java because they wouldn't be needed. MSFT then slowly cripples the *nix API's (add NOOP's) to get ports to Win32. Java is really picking up from what I see and this could be what MSFT is going after. They can fight the *nix API battle after Java is dumped on the floor..... hissss, booooo, NO WAY!
Anybody remember Coopers and Peters? MSFT bought them and we never saw the products again. Remember the other Java company that was doing some incredible graphics in Java (Liquid ????). They are gone too. Interix was possibly going to come out with a pseudo open source license of a software product called *nix For Windows. It would have been based on their core product and brought the *nix API to the Windows desktop/server. I just don't think MSFT wants ANYONE developing for non-WIN32 API's. This product will die in MSFT. Be worried when they buy MainSoft and then release MS Linux and have it forced on every PC with the MS Win32 API, MS Windows GUI and MS Exploder desktop. The OS would be OSS but not much else.....Continued control and continued restriction on innovation and competition.:(
I stopped $$ support when I learned they standardized on MS at my almamater. Every time they call or write for $$ I tell them that if the school can be that careless by choosing solutions (MS) needing constant replacement of software and hardware, that they don't need my $$. I then ask the person on the phone how many different versions of MS Word had he/she delt with so far at the school. They then understand. Money talks.
I think KOM/OpenParts is a good place to start. I doubt if IBM is going to release any source code related to SOM or OS/2 in general. The KOM/OpenParts frameworks are like the OpenDoc frameworks. Bringing SOM into Linux now would just add another technolgy that doesn't fit what's being developed. Bring KOffice out and tune KOM/OpenParts and then you have a tested foundation for bringing SOM/WPS features into KDE or a new desktop but leveraging the work of KOM/OpenParts. The WPS rocks but reality is that starting from scratch and without existing development in mind would fracture the Linux development env more then KDE and GNOME have already.
Did you notice that IBMs new NetStations are also able to run Workspace On Demand? IBM doesn't want to sell fat clients. Period. You don't see ATM's with the BSOD or German nuke power plants blowing up because OS/2 does the job of providing an advanced developement platform that is reliable. Remember the picture of the airline terminal with the GPF? I happen to agree with IBM on this though as a software developer I like a fat client. I'm going to set up Warp Server at home on a dual P6 and see if WSOD can still make a good dev env. I heard they are selling a good number of WSOD systems so a fat client just doesn't make $$ anymore. What might make $$$ in homes though is a fat PC acting as a server with IBM NetStations in many rooms. Not a NetStation for every family member because anyone can use any station. The 'server' could be managed by the ISP to some extent by providing applications delivers off hours and caced on the home server. Sure makes sense when compared to the cost of maintaining many PCs in a home and especially Windows PCs.
I'm surprised IBM targeted only RH also. They usually support 4 distributions publicly. I'm sure MSFT just loves this because it gives them a single target. A single point of failure. We really don't want this AGAIN do we? I don't.
exactly. Think about it.... Your honor, the bullet wound is healing nicely now and I promose I won't shot him again. Look at how his family is treating me. You surely can see that I would be unable to shoot him again with all his family protecting him.
I was amazed that the Netscape purchase by AOL even came into this case and had any bearing. The fact that the original 1994 case was pulled from Justice Sporken shows that the system is incapable of solving todays problems because corporations play be their own rules and the courts seem to allow this.
MSFT has billions gained from its monopoly and should not be allowed to use that $$ and sure as heck should not have been allowed to by or invest in all those companies this year. Come on, they paid AT&T $5 billion TO USE WinCE on another 3 MILLION set-top boxes and some backend systems. How is competition going to compete against not only free MSFT products but PAYING the CUSTOMER to use the products?
Well, it's difficult to purchase a PC without windows, because, in all honesty, up until this year MAYBE, there hasn't been a viable alternative for OEM's to install.
Funny that in Germany IBM was able to get just a couple of OEMs to preinstall OS/2 and OS/2 today is still very popular in Germany. There has been competition in OS/2, Netscape, Java, and others but MSFT has the ability to threaten anyone who doesn't play the 'Windows everywhere' tune. Linux and OSS is confusing the hell out of MSFT and that is the only reason why it hasn't been squashed. They are trying (Mindcraft...).
When you say there hasn't been any competition you might want to look a bit deeper. How do you like the fact that MSFT has to pay people (AT&T, TCI) to use WinCE. A product they have spent $$$ developing and yet again, choice is being eliminated as one monopoly is buying its way into creating another monopoly.
In my opinion, we might have slightly higher software costs if we had 2 or more dominant OS's to chose from but we would have far better application interoperability among diverse products. All those companies with crossplatform C++ frameworks would still exist today and it wouldn't be MSFT tools verses the fringe. Technologies like OpenDoc would be standard and computing would more then installing another MSFT OS or office suite or bug fix month after month. IMHO
This is my only problem with the Sun/StarDivision teaming. OpenDoc is a fantastic concept and could have changed the way we look at using computers but this and that happened (or didn't) and then Java became the platform neutral way to compute. KOffice with KOM/OpenParts is part 2 of OpenDoc in my opinion and I'd really like to see it have a chance to show users what a data-centric computing model can do. With Star Office being free to all and shipping fully functional today I hope that it can be KOM/OpenParts enabled and work with KOffice parts. That would give KOffice time to mature but bring another full suite of parts to KOM/OpenParts. After all, how impressive is it that one office suite works with only its own parts? Showing a KOffice part embedded in a KStarOffice part would be awesome. Just hope that KOffice doesn't get bowled over like OpenDoc did because we NEED this kind of technology to move out of this application-centric way of computing. IMHO
Look at it this way, Microsoft took hold of the OS market when IBM gave them the lead way back when. They then used the OS to get the application market by keeping the API's moving and allowing the app division access to the OS (Office updates OS dlls). They now own the desktop office applications market and that helps them keep control of the desktop OS. They each feed each other. Microsoft was threatened by Netscape because the browser was almost a OS environment and a application interface and could have made the OS an abstraction. Now Sun is going to break the Office application hold by giving away a very good suite at a time when Microsoft has been increasing the cost of MS Office. Soon Microsoft won't have the apps market to keep the OS dominant and finally Java can step in to level the playing field and simplify user experiences. In 5-10 years we may be fighting Sun but I'd rather deal with that fire when it occurs and put this fire out pronto. It (Microsoft) has been out of control for over 5 years. Thin clients will make Sun tons of $$ in server system sales and maybe even some client sales. My $.02
From what I just read, IOC and based on the MVC design pattern which has its beginnings on Smalltalk. They built IOC on that model just like most other GUI frameworks today only they seem to be more OO then the rest ( MFC ). If you come from a Windows came then inheritance is probably pretty foreign and interfaces are more your game. Inheritance is how one reuses OO objects and I'd think that a very structured class heirachy would be a desirable goal. There was alot of Taligent work that went into v4.0 of VisualAge C++ and the MVC design is generalized to the MVP (Model View Presenter) design pattern. There is a very good link to a PDF file (mvp.pdf) on the IBM site that explains this design. I really like the VisualBuilder because I don't have to spend much time doing grunt GUI coding and can even connect components without writting code. It may not be pretty to look at but generated code is not something you should be looking at normally. One should be working in business logic components. I like that IOC used(s) Event Notifiers and Factories because it makes it easy to work in the Java world since it uses this model too. IBM has for years tried to find a OO model to use accross all its systems and was very close with SOM. VA C++ on OS/2 and AIX would write SOM wrappers directly from C++. OpenDoc was going to be the next step for SOM but WordPerfect/Novell dropped that ball for the Windows port and Apple was classic 'we are the world' and would only promote OpenDoc on Apple (CyberDog was pretty cool). Now we have Java and the JavaBeans model to pick up where IOC, SOM, and OpenDoc left off and its multiplatform out of the gate. Thanks for your opinion. By the way, PM is pretty easy to write to. I did a quick port of a PM app to NT a year ago and NT required more code to do the same thing (at the SDK level). I had also wrapped my PM code in a shallow C++ layer so most of the changes were in the class definitions.
Any of you use VisualAge for C++ on AIX? I've meddled with VA C++ on OS/2 and OCL seems like a really nice framework to me. I've not used it much so I'm hoping to here from some OS/2, Windows, or AIX people that might have more experience with it. Especially since it went to v4.0 just some months ago.
IBM did the port to CHRP back in the mid 1990's. When IBM stopped feeding $$ into NT on PPC, Micros$1 announced the death of the PPC port version. I get this information for the recent stories on Compaq killing the Alpha port of NT. Microsoft didn't do the work or spend the $$ on the Alpha port, DEC/Compaq did. I'd love to see CHRP come to fruition. Ah, the days when I saw OS/2, NT, and Solaris running on the same PREP systems at Comdex 94'. Hope it takes off.
The Micros~1 case brought something out in the open that I REALLY dislike about the current state of 'The Law'. It seems that each side is allowed to lie if they think they can not be caught at it. There are many examples of it by Micros~1 during the DOJ vs MS trial. They were even caught and admitted it but yet no perjury cases were brought against them. I spoke with a lawyer and he said it is accepted that there will be perjury in almost every case and to keep the wheels moving, nobody gets called on it. That is why I hate lawyers. They are not looking for the truth, they are looking to win by any means without fear of reprisals. The guilty are set free and the victims left without justice. This obviously is not what happens ALL the time, but the junk I read from the transcripts was amazing. Yet nobody paid a price for misrepresenting data to the courts......
Hold you horses, Micros~1 is paying companies to use WinCE on systems that would be using another OS. They are buying their way in and putting the alternatives out of business by anticompetition. Paying someone to use your proprietary OS is bad for the industry and prevents the best product from winning. If you invented a technology today which would revolutionize the way we used computers for the next 10 years, you would have a snowballs chance in hell of getting it to market. Micros~1 would bash your product in all the news rags. They would then preannouce their whiz-bang product and stall your sales. Their whiz-bang product will be a Windows product even though it would make no sense for it being so. The public ends up with another 10 years of ho-hum Windows computing. They are a cancer! IMHO
Slashdot Mirror
None the less, ZiffDavis publications are but one arm of Microsofts PR division. Slinging is shit to IT managers or Home users is still slinging shit. IMO
Damn straight. I'm with you because until they show repeatedly that they can COMPETE they get no $$ from me. Stopping competition by paying customers to use MSFT products ( IE, WinCE, etc ), licensing a product with no intention of following the license agreement ( Java, Spyglass, etc ), and forcing applications on OEMs ( IE, MediaPlayer, etc ) is just plain bad for users, developers, and business customers and partners. I wouldn't do the castration bit but I've quit a couple of jobs because it would mean developing for a version of MSFT Windows. Locutus
Uptime can be applied to other things besides single machines. Why do you thing MSFT NEEDS clustering in Windows? So they can get a server (group servers providing a SERVICE) to provide more then 70% uptime. The uptime of the slashdot.org website makes plenty sense to me.
Then change the name, force preloads by sending Vito to the OEMs, and pay companies like AT&T BILLIONS to use it.
:)
How many times has M$FT done this in the name of innovation? Please don't answer this question, disk space is a terrible thing to waste.
Locutus
Jim Ewel
I love it! Just the attention means Linux is working.
Seems like it might be a better name for the chip formerly known a Merced. Unless performance improves dramatically it is going to look like the ~1994 comparison of the PPC and the P6. Isn't AMD going to bring out the K8 next year at 64bits?
Those yaks won't take any calls if you don't use their OS. One of their servers (smtp) was not fuctioning properly and the guy told me he couldn't help because I run Linux (and OS/2). When I asked what he would tell me IF I was on Wintendo, he said he would have me reset the modem, reinstall my email package, and reboot Wintendo. All this even though I told him I could GET email, browse the web, ftp and telnet worked fine. MS has control of RoadRunner so hopefully this deal will be better for its users.
My take on Dell selling Linux is that Bill Gates most likely talked with Mike Dell and said his lawyers need a big OEM showing that they are selling non-MSFT OS's. In comes Dell and look, you have to pay extra for the Linux machine. A MSFT mouse you say? I'm not surprised that MSFT mice are your only choice because MSFT wants their name on that box somehow. I say that Dell will drop Linux when the DOJ vs MSFT case is finished. Really now, Bill and Mike are buddies and Mike stands up for Bill at any chance he gets. I'd expect Linux on desktops from Gateway, Compaq and IBM way before Dell. So Dell is a lion in sheeps clothing if you ask me.
Oh, I forgot that there exists no other wordprocessors but Microsoft Word. NOT! There are a number of wordprocessors available and some are for many platforms. I'm not going to list them all here, that would be a waste of time.
This could be a short term attack on Java. I know of a few companies using Java to get cross-platform to Windows. This little *nix on Windows could bring the *nix apps over and stall the ports to Java because they wouldn't be needed. MSFT then slowly cripples the *nix API's (add NOOP's) to get ports to Win32. Java is really picking up from what I see and this could be what MSFT is going after. They can fight the *nix API battle after Java is dumped on the floor.....
hissss, booooo, NO WAY!
Anybody remember Coopers and Peters? MSFT bought them and we never saw the products again. Remember the other Java company that was doing some incredible graphics in Java (Liquid ????). They are gone too. :(
Interix was possibly going to come out with a pseudo open source license of a software product called *nix For Windows. It would have been based on their core product and brought the *nix API to the Windows desktop/server. I just don't think MSFT wants ANYONE developing for non-WIN32 API's. This product will die in MSFT. Be worried when they buy MainSoft and then release MS Linux and have it forced on every PC with the MS Win32 API, MS Windows GUI and MS Exploder desktop. The OS would be OSS but not much else.....Continued control and continued restriction on innovation and competition.
I stopped $$ support when I learned they standardized on MS at my almamater. Every time they call or write for $$ I tell them that if the school can be that careless by choosing solutions (MS) needing constant replacement of software and hardware, that they don't need my $$. I then ask the person on the phone how many different versions of MS Word had he/she delt with so far at the school. They then understand. Money talks.
I think KOM/OpenParts is a good place to start. I doubt if IBM is going to release any source code related to SOM or OS/2 in general. The KOM/OpenParts frameworks are like the OpenDoc frameworks. Bringing SOM into Linux now would just add another technolgy that doesn't fit what's being developed. Bring KOffice out and tune KOM/OpenParts and then you have a tested foundation for bringing SOM/WPS features into KDE or a new desktop but leveraging the work of KOM/OpenParts. The WPS rocks but reality is that starting from scratch and without existing development in mind would fracture the Linux development env more then KDE and GNOME have already.
Did you notice that IBMs new NetStations are also able to run Workspace On Demand? IBM doesn't want to sell fat clients. Period. You don't see ATM's with the BSOD or German nuke power plants blowing up because OS/2 does the job of providing an advanced developement platform that is reliable. Remember the picture of the airline terminal with the GPF? I happen to agree with IBM on this though as a software developer I like a fat client. I'm going to set up Warp Server at home on a dual P6 and see if WSOD can still make a good dev env. I heard they are selling a good number of WSOD systems so a fat client just doesn't make $$ anymore.
What might make $$$ in homes though is a fat PC acting as a server with IBM NetStations in many rooms. Not a NetStation for every family member because anyone can use any station. The 'server' could be managed by the ISP to some extent by providing applications delivers off hours and caced on the home server. Sure makes sense when compared to the cost of maintaining many PCs in a home and especially Windows PCs.
my $1.02
I'm surprised IBM targeted only RH also. They usually support 4 distributions publicly. I'm sure MSFT just loves this because it gives them a single target. A single point of failure. We really don't want this AGAIN do we? I don't.
exactly. Think about it....
Your honor, the bullet wound is healing nicely now and I promose I won't shot him again. Look at how his family is treating me. You surely can see that I would be unable to shoot him again with all his family protecting him.
I was amazed that the Netscape purchase by AOL even came into this case and had any bearing. The fact that the original 1994 case was pulled from Justice Sporken shows that the system is incapable of solving todays problems because corporations play be their own rules and the courts seem to allow this.
MSFT has billions gained from its monopoly and should not be allowed to use that $$ and sure as heck should not have been allowed to by or invest in all those companies this year. Come on, they paid AT&T $5 billion TO USE WinCE on another 3 MILLION set-top boxes and some backend systems. How is competition going to compete against not only free MSFT products but PAYING the CUSTOMER to use the products?
Funny that in Germany IBM was able to get just a couple of OEMs to preinstall OS/2 and OS/2 today is still very popular in Germany. There has been competition in OS/2, Netscape, Java, and others but MSFT has the ability to threaten anyone who doesn't play the 'Windows everywhere' tune. Linux and OSS is confusing the hell out of MSFT and that is the only reason why it hasn't been squashed. They are trying (Mindcraft...).
When you say there hasn't been any competition you might want to look a bit deeper. How do you like the fact that MSFT has to pay people (AT&T, TCI) to use WinCE. A product they have spent $$$ developing and yet again, choice is being eliminated as one monopoly is buying its way into creating another monopoly.
In my opinion, we might have slightly higher software costs if we had 2 or more dominant OS's to chose from but we would have far better application interoperability among diverse products. All those companies with crossplatform C++ frameworks would still exist today and it wouldn't be MSFT tools verses the fringe. Technologies like OpenDoc would be standard and computing would more then installing another MSFT OS or office suite or bug fix month after month. IMHO
This is my only problem with the Sun/StarDivision teaming. OpenDoc is a fantastic concept and could have changed the way we look at using computers but this and that happened (or didn't) and then Java became the platform neutral way to compute. KOffice with KOM/OpenParts is part 2 of OpenDoc in my opinion and I'd really like to see it have a chance to show users what a data-centric computing model can do. With Star Office being free to all and shipping fully functional today I hope that it can be KOM/OpenParts enabled and work with KOffice parts. That would give KOffice time to mature but bring another full suite of parts to KOM/OpenParts. After all, how impressive is it that one office suite works with only its own parts? Showing a KOffice part embedded in a KStarOffice part would be awesome. Just hope that KOffice doesn't get bowled over like OpenDoc did because we NEED this kind of technology to move out of this application-centric way of computing.
IMHO
Look at it this way, Microsoft took hold of the OS market when IBM gave them the lead way back when. They then used the OS to get the application market by keeping the API's moving and allowing the app division access to the OS (Office updates OS dlls). They now own the desktop office applications market and that helps them keep control of the desktop OS. They each feed each other. Microsoft was threatened by Netscape because the browser was almost a OS environment and a application interface and could have made the OS an abstraction. Now Sun is going to break the Office application hold by giving away a very good suite at a time when Microsoft has been increasing the cost of MS Office. Soon Microsoft won't have the apps market to keep the OS dominant and finally Java can step in to level the playing field and simplify user experiences. In 5-10 years we may be fighting Sun but I'd rather deal with that fire when it occurs and put this fire out pronto. It (Microsoft) has been out of control for over 5 years.
Thin clients will make Sun tons of $$ in server system sales and maybe even some client sales.
My $.02
From what I just read, IOC and based on the MVC design pattern which has its beginnings on Smalltalk. They built IOC on that model just like most other GUI frameworks today only they seem to be more OO then the rest ( MFC ). If you come from a Windows came then inheritance is probably pretty foreign and interfaces are more your game. Inheritance is how one reuses OO objects and I'd think that a very structured class heirachy would be a desirable goal. There was alot of Taligent work that went into v4.0 of VisualAge C++ and the MVC design is generalized to the MVP (Model View Presenter) design pattern. There is a very good link to a PDF file (mvp.pdf) on the IBM site that explains this design. I really like the VisualBuilder because I don't have to spend much time doing grunt GUI coding and can even connect components without writting code. It may not be pretty to look at but generated code is not something you should be looking at normally. One should be working in business logic components.
I like that IOC used(s) Event Notifiers and Factories because it makes it easy to work in the Java world since it uses this model too. IBM has for years tried to find a OO model to use accross all its systems and was very close with SOM. VA C++ on OS/2 and AIX would write SOM wrappers directly from C++. OpenDoc was going to be the next step for SOM but WordPerfect/Novell dropped that ball for the Windows port and Apple was classic 'we are the world' and would only promote OpenDoc on Apple (CyberDog was pretty cool). Now we have Java and the JavaBeans model to pick up where IOC, SOM, and OpenDoc left off and its multiplatform out of the gate.
Thanks for your opinion. By the way, PM is pretty easy to write to. I did a quick port of a PM app to NT a year ago and NT required more code to do the same thing (at the SDK level). I had also wrapped my PM code in a shallow C++ layer so most of the changes were in the class definitions.
Any of you use VisualAge for C++ on AIX? I've meddled with VA C++ on OS/2 and OCL seems like a really nice framework to me. I've not used it much so I'm hoping to here from some OS/2, Windows, or AIX people that might have more experience with it. Especially since it went to v4.0 just some months ago.
IBM did the port to CHRP back in the mid 1990's. When IBM stopped feeding $$ into NT on PPC, Micros$1 announced the death of the PPC port version. I get this information for the recent stories on Compaq killing the Alpha port of NT. Microsoft didn't do the work or spend the $$ on the Alpha port, DEC/Compaq did. I'd love to see CHRP come to fruition. Ah, the days when I saw OS/2, NT, and Solaris running on the same PREP systems at Comdex 94'. Hope it takes off.
The Micros~1 case brought something out in the open that I REALLY dislike about the current state of 'The Law'. It seems that each side is allowed to lie if they think they can not be caught at it. There are many examples of it by Micros~1 during the DOJ vs MS trial. They were even caught and admitted it but yet no perjury cases were brought against them. I spoke with a lawyer and he said it is accepted that there will be perjury in almost every case and to keep the wheels moving, nobody gets called on it. That is why I hate lawyers. They are not looking for the truth, they are looking to win by any means without fear of reprisals. The guilty are set free and the victims left without justice. This obviously is not what happens ALL the time, but the junk I read from the transcripts was amazing. Yet nobody paid a price for misrepresenting data to the courts......
Hold you horses, Micros~1 is paying companies to use WinCE on systems that would be using another OS. They are buying their way in and putting the alternatives out of business by anticompetition. Paying someone to use your proprietary OS is bad for the industry and prevents the best product from winning.
If you invented a technology today which would revolutionize the way we used computers for the next 10 years, you would have a snowballs chance in hell of getting it to market. Micros~1 would bash your product in all the news rags. They would then preannouce their whiz-bang product and stall your sales. Their whiz-bang product will be a Windows product even though it would make no sense for it being so. The public ends up with another 10 years of ho-hum Windows computing.
They are a cancer! IMHO
Doah! :)