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Linuxcare and Sun partner on StarOffice for Linux
Anonymous Coward writes "August 31, 1999 -- Linuxcare announced today that it had reached an agreement with Sun Microsystems to provide a range of enterprise-class services for Sun's recently acquired StarOffice productivity suite on Linux. " Lotsa activity about StarOffice in the past few days-from being "community-licensed", to being developed into a Web application. Look for more news on this later on today.
This is my only problem with the Sun/StarDivision teaming. OpenDoc is a fantastic concept and could have changed the way we look at using computers but this and that happened (or didn't) and then Java became the platform neutral way to compute. KOffice with KOM/OpenParts is part 2 of OpenDoc in my opinion and I'd really like to see it have a chance to show users what a data-centric computing model can do. With Star Office being free to all and shipping fully functional today I hope that it can be KOM/OpenParts enabled and work with KOffice parts. That would give KOffice time to mature but bring another full suite of parts to KOM/OpenParts. After all, how impressive is it that one office suite works with only its own parts? Showing a KOffice part embedded in a KStarOffice part would be awesome. Just hope that KOffice doesn't get bowled over like OpenDoc did because we NEED this kind of technology to move out of this application-centric way of computing.
IMHO
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Has anyone figured out how to sync a Palm Pilot?
There is a place to configure the sync, but some
of the tabs don't work.
There is a starsync directory, but its empty...
The outsourced support site is a joke -- it
died a couple of times for me with VBSCRIPT(!) errors.
a quick look at the win32 installation directory revealed that the jre 1.1.7b (the java runtime environment) is included with the windows distribution. interesting.
>As an IS guy who does a lot of user support,
>let me just say that the real cost of an office
>suite is porting apps, templates, and getting
>the users up to speed.
this is true for big business, but sun(star) has a decent shot at the SOHO market and end users with cheap PC. one of the reasons windows is so popular is because people use it at home, therefore free training for the company/no learning curve.
chances are good, though, that this is just another of those meaningless purchases. it would be great if they could figure out what they wanted to do and actually do it. just a simple brainstorming session will give you half a dozen ways to help sun/hurt MS (equally as important to sun). it's going to end up mired in the standard big business/old school/stockholder pleasing mentality and it'll be dumped, i'm afraid.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
I'd say there would be little benefit in switching to StarOffice for Windows. It only makes sense to switch if you can move most users to Linux/Unix, since that's bound to substantially reduce "This worked yesterday! It doesn't work now!" type questions. It will increase the "How do I do this?" questions, but only for a while. In my experience, the clueless will still need help, and the clueful will figure out the differences pretty fast.
...
If you consider how expensive IT support is, it might make a lot of sense to do this, assuming StarOffice's functions are comparable.
It's pretty easy to learn a new macro language, and in my one check of StarOffice's, it looked like a virtual clone of MS's - it was so close it felt eerie.
The real disadvantage of Linux is that custom applications based on Access won't run. I wonder if StarDivision, flush with cash, has an Access clone in the works? It would be the next logical step.
Or maybe StarDivision's owners are lounging on a tropical island. I'm still flabbergasted at the price they got from Sun. I would have believed closer to $ 50 million than $ 500 million
D
----
Here at the office most of the computers are running Linux with KDE and have 64MB of memory in them. X takes alot of memory, KDE does too and so does Netscape. And StarOffice wants more memory than anybody else. Almost 42MB. Wordperfect for Linux in comparison takes 7MB of memory. If they could make StarOffice is a little leaner and meaner suite, it would be wildly popular. And I too would vote for breaking up the applications instead of providing one desktop that runs them all.
They're not trying to make money off of StarOffice, they're trying to slow microsoft's revenues down.
>You also forget that Sun DOES have a vested
>interest in Star Office. First off, it is Sun's
>corporate philosophy that systems be non-
>proprietary and open.
Yeah, right. Sun was doing the "embrace and extend" thing with Unix before Microsoft even thought of it. It's difficult for a company to truly push non-proprietary products and still maximize their profit. Sun has chosen the next best thing, which is to act like they're all into the "open" philosophy while hoping that their mindless zealots will remain too dumb to see the truth.
Sun's "Community License" BS is just the latest.
>Second is the "network is the computer" and "run
>anything, any time, anywhere, on any device"
>(Microsoft has also taken up the latter, but
>that is besides the point.)
Sorry, Sun may jump up and down yelling about the network is the computer and the run anything anywhere BS, but it's just that: BS. Has anyone else noted the nonsense of Sun's answer to Microsoft everywhere? It's "Java anywhere". Wait, Java is a proprietary technology (language and libs) owned by Sun. So, I'm to believe that Sun having the monopoly now held by Microsoft is somehow better?
You have me laughing at this point. I love watching a Sun zealot parrot Scott McNealy's (note: rhymes with "Mr. McFeely") maniacal rantings.
>80% of the traffic on the Internet runs on
>Sun machines,
Hey, the College of Cardinals just called. Seems they're looking for a new Pope and I'm it.
That statement is far closer to reality than teh 80% figure that you quote.
>if more people start using the internet and
>ISPs and others have more uses for servers,
>Sun will make money on the deal. Sun is planning
>on offering Star Portal, which will be able to
>be used on the thin-client model. Thin clients >run well on what... Sun servers. I think that is
>a vested interest, don't you agree?
Wow, so I can use hilarilously expensive proprietary Sun hardware (oh, bonus, I get to also be locked in to their proprietary OS) as a server. Sorry, I'll go with Linux, the number one web service platform on the internet. Linux actually is the whatever behind dot com.
You Sun zealots crack me up!
TT
Do you have ESP?
You CAN make changes. You get the source code.
You CAN redistribute. You just can't make any money on the software without giveing SUN royalties. ie it accomplishes the same as the GPL Free source code and freely share with you friends your changes. As far as using code for other projects... If you use enought of the Star office code base you do owe the creaters something back. This model is much better than the MS.. you don't have any rights.
Please get you facts strait expecialy the first one. It just make you look like a FUD spreader.
#=-weo-=#
Ok. I'm not a big huge fan of CSL, and GPL would have been much cooler, but I gotta say that overall I really like StarOffice. A lot. The value / price ratio is *excellent*, and it has the *best* MS Office compatibility that I've ever seen.
But I'm not keen and swift on Legalese.
So, given this type of license, can I...
a) Burn copies of StarOffice 5.1 and give them to all my friends who can't afford a $600 copy of Office 2000?
b) Install it at the local college for the remedial English classes to use? (They use computers as nothing more than typewriters... so I figger a quick 'shell=soffice.exe' in system.ini would be a good thing for them, since there's only one interface to learn...)
c) Install it on all the Linux workstations for multi-user usage?
Ah... the confusions of half-assed licensing. Not as easy to figure out as the plain and straight-forward GNU GPL and MS EULA... ; )
I say be either hot or cold - not lukewarm. ; )
-Josh
(forgot my password again - and missing the good ol' days of Chips 'n Dips...)
Oh, and BTW... how do you turn off that goofy 'Start button' for non-braindead users?...
About as many who jumped to write Netscape? Which wasn't that manyfold. And certainly didn't kick MS's ass to the orbit in an over-night.
I'm just glad I can get an office suite for free. Even if I use it commercially. I haven't tried StarOffice yet but many claim it has most of the needed features. We'll see.
As far as it not being real open source, I couldn't care less. If there's a really annoying problem, I can fix it. But not sell it. Good enough for me.
You can't get any non-trivial Java apps to work correctly with these Open Source JVM's you advertise. You're pretty much stuck with a "Hello World" level programs. And there is no alternative, at all, to the software libraries that come with Sun licensed development kits (and yeah, before dozens of slashdotters come out screaming, I'm aware of Classpath project, and think it's a very cool project, but they aren't done yet, and only after they are, we can start arguing about if they can compete with Sun's "horribly" licensed stuff).
Open Source Java is not an option today.
As for compilers, I doubt Sun could care less about open source compilers. Stuff like Pizza has been around for ages, and even compilers that only accept "pure" Java probably quite some time. It's the bytecode that matters. And only that. Sun being eclipsed by OSS Java compilers? Heh. That really doesn't make any sense.
It's called "Illegal Dumping" and is not legal. Sun is dumping this office suite in the market to hurt Microsoft sales. Yes, I KNOW they did that with explorer, and THAT is why they are in a tangle with the DOJ. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I picked the wrong time to try StarOffice - just as I download it sun rip up the whole site and trash the news groups, great support guys! (Seems to hang on Deb potato)
All we need now is for staroffice to open up so that the developers at kde can chew through it to get koffice up an running.
Power without perception is spiritualy useless, and therefore of no true value.
Sun should bundle StarOffice with JDK, and claim that it is "integrated" with java. See how that affects MS Office sales...
;-)
bye-Ben
Does Sun buying StarOffice remind anyone of Novell buying WordPerfect in the early 1990s - i.e., a company trying to enter a market it does not understand or have a vested interest in, but only seeks to attack and scare their chief competitor (MS in both cases)?
Novell essentially let WordPerfect die before seeling it off to Corel; I fear Sun will do the same to StarOffice once the initial interest fades...
--Philip
"It's amazing how our industry is strewn with beautiful, dead technology and bitter engineers." --M. Huyck
Sun could do a lot to start with by taking that ridiculous "Start" button function off the StarOffice explorer. I thought it was ironic till I realised there was no obvious way of getting rid of it.
That aside, StarOffice is a top product, and has everything an M$-beater needs:
1) It can read M$ file formats (great for those "corporate rollout"/backwards compatibility moments)
2) Its available on platforms outside *nix (great for those "I can't be parted from my beloved.... crap! it crashed again!...Windows" moments)
3) It really kinda rocks, M$-interface cloning aside.
An integration with KDE (as someone said above) would rule beyond belief, and events of the past few days finally make this a possibility. As far as I can see, Sun's money, influence, friends and acid hatred of Microsoft can only be good for StarOffice.
I for one am cheering.
There's a heftier cost to, say, a business than the sticker price.
Even if an IT director chose to get the Windows version of StarOffice (in constrast to hiring, say, Unix-aware sysadmins, switching boxes, and adding a LOT of expense), you have to get the users trained for the new software.
This includes special capabilities like macro languages, templates and so forth, giving the whole company an at-least-one-time productivity hit. You might also have to check about interoperability with clients' systems if you're transferring saved documents and clients decide to go with a newer Office version using yet another file format...
Compare that w/ the $300/seat (well, only if you can't negotiate a site license or other deal...) one-time upgrade cost. Unless MS dev's go insane and start tweaking like madmen, most upgrades won't be removing depended-upon features, nor make them less accessible. There's less training time associated with that.
If, say, an employee makes $70K/year, assuming perhaps 50 wks work/year at a fudgy 60h/wk, that comes out to ~$23.33/hr. So a break-even point might be 12 hours of completely lost productivity assuming no other costs and you accept those dodgy numbers as remotely correct. Keep in mind that I'm ignoring any additional support costs, as well...
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Are they going to still support native Linux binaries or just web enabled java code -- I'd hate to have to type a paper and not be able to just because all ISP lines were busy. hopefully I'm just misunderstanding.
There is some amount of KDE integration (or CDE, if you prefer). You can drag & drop to/from kfm, and it installs Mime Types in KDE for StarOffice files (although for some odd reason, the "descriptions" are all "mime type". Duh.
I would like to see it do away with its attempt to be its own window manager, though.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
An article in USA Today said that Star Office would be hard pressed to overtake M$ and their "100 million loyal fans". Were they smokin' something? Hmmmm....StarOffice for free; MS Office V xxxx ......$500 to $600, or as an upgrade $300?
I won't complain like some of the other posters, since if you really want to hurt M$, hit them in their pocket. The article said that M$ wouldn't take this sitting down, which would seem odd to me; since they couldn't match Sun's price (free).
Seems to me that everyone in open source should cheer, since Sun has made a major shot across the M$ bow. Quit complaining, and think how this could add to the woes of M$.
. . . then it will be very interesting to see if the open source movement can really out do Microsoft.
I downloaded Star Office for the first time yesterday and took a look at it. It is very complete, far more functionality than any open source office software I've seen. It looks like it can compete with MS Office in the "side of the box feature list" department.
On the downside, however MS Office is at least twice as fast on identical hardware. Test machine is a Compaq Deskpro with a Pentium 200 something with 64MB of RAM. MS Office 97 on NT 4.0 loads reasonable fast and is plenty responsive for general use, even loading multi-hundred page Word documents with embedded graphics. On the same machine, starting Star Office on Mandrake 6.0 allows time to go get coffee. There are noticable delays and lack of responsiveness even when working with small documents.
Fonts, to be blunt, suck. Now maybe if running ttmkfontdir didn't crash the font server I might be able to get better fonts, but based on what I went through I wouldn't advise inexperienced Linux users to install new fonts. It essentially disabled my machine.
If Sun really opens the source I'll be waiting to see how many people join in the effort to optimize performance.
I saw part of the broadcast yesterday and the answer is yes, Dell (gateway, compaq VA linux sys. etc etc etc....) could preload and ship staroffice for no fee. (as long as they do not charge for it, if they charge for it then they probably need to give some sort of kickback - but who would pay for it?) and the gist I got from the talk was that Sun would be very happy for resellers to do just that. I think I heard the idea even thrown out about getting the staroffice package put on the AOL cdroms that aol blankets the US mail with wouldn't that be a kick? finally the possibility of useful software on an aol cdrom.
APPS (esp spreadsheet) all look and smell like office, plus save in excel/word format. Everything looks works great, start times are a little slow. What's the downside. Is this as good as it looks? Can I dump Office 2000 on my laptop and go 100% linux???? (coworkers all communicate in word and excel).
I hate to admit it, but MS Office under NT on my machine (PPro200) is WAY faster than StarOffice under Linux. It's true that SO has gazillions of features, and its MS filters are the best around, but it feels like it's being run through an interpreter. Plus, I cannot stand the Window95 look and the MDI interface that makes it want to take over the whole desktop.
Do you mean comp.windows.advocacy?
And BTW - where can I pick up a free copy of Windows 98 and Windows NT... And Exchange and SQL server 7 too. I mean, if Microsoft does that with EVERYTHING, there should be some place I can DL them from, right?
Also, dumping isn't just illegal for monopolies (which the law still hasn't determined that Microsoft is - and it looks less and less like it every day). If I recall correctly, the feds nailed a Japanese auto maker for dumping minivans in the US. And I GUARANTEE you they weren't a monopoly. It's desparate. Sun wanted to ride Corel's pathetic Java office client (witness this), but when that sucked enough wind to fold, Sun's pathetic NC strategy was stuck fully deployed, sails up, in a dead calm. This is simply Sun trying, yet again, to get all of the world to revert to the sad era of the mini and the mainframe.
It ain't that bad, Bruce, if you are into running in house commercial applications on hot iron and still wants to give the PointyHaired some kind of support. Word processing and fancy graphs extracted from spreadsheets really is the way of todays world, and StarOffice has those features.
.. ;-)
The good news is that what sun is doing is essentially to mirror the gnu effort, albeit with some restrictions, releasing source to the Sun community. This means that _we_ do not have to worry about the sustainability of _their_ buisiness or their ability to fix security holes, since we are in charge of this our selves.
For those of us using the Solaris system on a dayly basis, the difference between Sun and Gnu is, for all good reasoning, close to nil.
(But, honestly, I think the compiler they ship with their system is embarrasing. Heck, just about any Free compiler is better
ja@linux.nu
send + more == money?
We downloaded and installed StarOffice for Solaris/Sparc, and it does not have filters for importing Wordperfect, Ami-Pro, or Lotus files. The sun website says they aren't included due to license reasons, and aren't likely to be implemented for the same reasons.
Apparently there used to be support in Staroffice for these formats. Is there any way to download the module and install it separately? Office compatibility is nice, but for existing *nix shops like ours who use WP (what else is there?), this limitation severely impacts the value of Staroffice.
Ya know... StarOffice is a very keen app. I really like a lot of things about it. All except... That damned Start menu!!! What??! What's that start menu for? That's the whole reason I'm running Linux was to get away from that crap. I say they ditch the StarOffice frontend [or at least make it an option to not install it] and they seperate all the appilications into their own executable and stuff... Kinda like the way Applixware is setup. I just /love/ to see that. But it pains me to see that stupid un-configurable desktop that comes as a must for running StarOffice. And that is the only reason I don't run StarOffice now. Please, oh please, Sun... Fix this! *grin*
Just want to say that at least one /. reader noticed the humor in your post!
;-)
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
What's the deal with Star Office being pre-installed on computers? Can dell build and sell a system with Star Office instead of MS office, and not pay any royalties, or is there a license fee of some sort that goes to Sun? If computer manufacturers could preinstall StarOffice without paying licensing fees, that would be a great boost to the program.
Juiced? Or Not?
This is the really interesting part of the story. The "free s/w but pay for support" model /really/ threatens M$.
1. Sun is a horrible evil company that has never done anything for the open source community and their only goal is to become the next Microsoft - I have no tangible proof of this, but I do sense a rise in the dark side of the force.
2. CSL is "horrible", how dare anyone try to use anything besides the GPL which must be forced on everyone for it is the one true Lisence - What? You're trying to give me a horse? For free? Not until I can check and make sure it has all it's teeth!
3. Sparc is an awful proprietary platform that only runs the proprietary Solaris OS - What's this company "Tatung" (among others), what's SparcLinux?
4. I worked at X companies, and none of the ran solaris. This is much more accurate survey process than any corporate statician can think of so the claim that 80% of the internet backbone runs on Sun must be untrue!
5. Why does Sun refuse to ditch solaris and only resell Linux? Does anybody really need 64 processor SMP or stable clustering?
Get some new rants guys, these are getting old.
If this turns out to be anything like the Lotus Notes web client, Sun will be first against the wall when the revolution comes. Bletch.
F0 07 C7 C8
ISPs billing by connection time would also be a threat to the thin client revenue model. Billing by bandwidth consumed wouldn't affect a web-editor as much.
If Microsoft gets a large share of the ISP market they could attempt to make web services less attractive to their customers by choosing billing means that discouraged them, yet still providing a discount over other flat rate services for casual web use.
Sorry, but this is SO wrong I feel it needs a reply. This is what really happened. I don't think anyone will substantively argue the facts below:
You obviously weren't using browsers a few years ago, or you'd know that originally, all browsers were free (NCSA Mosaic, Viola, Lynx, Tim Berners-Lee's orginal NeXT browser, etc.)
Then some of the leading Mosaic developers formed Netscape, and wrote the next-generation graphical browser everybody really wanted. Commercial browsers up to that point were generally repackaged Mosaic or worse, but sold because they had integrated TCP/IP stacks - important back in the Win 3.X days when PCs didn't have IP, and making the pieces work was a pain even if you knew what you were doing (sounds like Linux [grin]) It was free only for personal use - commercial use required paying a license fee, nominally $35/copy, IIRC. Netscape raised the bar and obsoleted all other browsers of the time.
Microsoft began to see Netscape as a threat and decided they needed a "modern" browser, too. MS contracted with Spyglass, which was the officialy blessed licensing arm for the original NCSA Mosaic source, to pay them a percentage of the revenue from every copy of IE. Then MS decided, right or wrong, to play hardball and shut down Netscape's revenue stream, so they gave away IE **even for commercial use**. Spyglass didn't make much.
Netscape soon bowed to MS' competitive pressure (it IS hard to compete with free) and began to give away thier browser, which at the time accounted for a fair-sized portion of their revenues. Had this not happened, AOL would likely not have been able to afford to buy Netscape a couple of years later.
Finally, as was pointed out above, it's only illegal to give away a product at a loss when you do so to either acquire or maintain a "monopoly" position. Microsoft may be a monopoly (the lawyers are still arguing), Sun almost certainly is not.
As Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know - the REST of the story."
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Is anyone else having problems downloading staroffice from Sun`s website? Every time I click `download`, it takes me through a series of pages offering to send me a CD. I can`t see anything wrong with the HTML, so what`s going on? (And yes, I am clicking `download` and not `buy CD`, before anyone asks.)
If StarOffice bombs.... it's not necessarily a reflection on open source. For, many open source developers (and potential developers) don't trust Sun, don't want to help Sun, and don't like the Community License.
KOffice should always get more help than StarOffice, because KOffice code is itself GPL, and Qt 2.0 (which KOffice uses) is "Free".
to find the quote(s) on the Internet from Marc Andreeson (pre-Barksdale) stating that the client will always be free???
It is currently free-of-cost for noncommercial use, which is exactly what Sun's "community source license" marketing stunt is. You won't be able to change it and redistribute changes, or use the code in other free projects like GNOME Workshop or KOffice. There's nothing to see here, folks. CSL = bad
I don't think I'd want to try a browser based office suite until Linux has a solid browser. No, Netscape isn't solid. It hasn't run Java properly since 4.08. And don't get me wrong, I download and compile Mozilla Milestones with everyone else, but they still haven't released a stable product yet. Being the only person with a linux workstation it our whole shop is great, until Netscape starts doing bizarre file caching things with pages I'm working on, and everyone snickers and tells me to view it in IE...
Oh well, I still use latex+XEmacs for generating documents anyway...;)
StarOffice can still kiss my ass, their community license is NOT open-source compliant.
download is taking forever. Is it worth it. Gov employee, if I read the lic. right it is OK to use but not OK to distribute????
download is taking forever. Is it worth it.
Gov employee, if I read the lic. right it is OK to use but not OK to distribute????