OK.. Again, I dont disagree - I dont know the details of, or even that there is an RFC concerning standard timeouts in NAT, however all of this argument is just to determine how densely you can overload one IP address, not that in concept the typical home user will notice it or not. I have seen companies with 1000+ employees get NAT'd down to a nat pool of one IP address and have no discernable problem, so I dont think a neighborhood of 1000 homes that mostly wont be in use simultaneously would have a problem sharing one address.. But, even if it's only a 10:1 reduction, it's still easier/cheaper than migrating the typical consumer to IPv6 and retrain the support staff..
Exactly my point.. The consumer doesn't care, and the TYPICAL consumer is price driven, so why upgrade them to an IPv6 network, and retrain all of your support staff, when your typical customer is happy if they can get to Facebook and google? NAT on an IPv4 network is fine for most people.. Those who care, will be willing to spend some extra per month to get a real IP address..
EVENTUALLY, there might be some functionality that the consumer demands, which can ONLY be provided on IPv6, at which time, there would be a reason for the typical consumer to care, and at that point, there will be a financial driver to force the upgrade. Until then, I'm betting no. I've been hearing the same IPv6 is coming mantra for 15 years or more, and it's still the same story..
I hear what you're saying, but I think network speed will do away with the effect of that.. my cable modem keeps getting faster and faster, so aside from an RTP video stream or something, none of my connections are open too long. Also, that problem just limits the value of "many" in the "one to many" nat scenario, and might force the ISP to build NAT pools per neighborhood.. I'm not saying Comcast is going to NAT us all down to one IP, but certainly we dont all need our own in a consumer grade service.
I like your listed steps, but I dont think anyone outside of the academic and/or government world will ever see "step 2" unless there's a killer-app that forces the consumer market to demand it.
The problem here is that nobody really has the necessary power to force IPv6 on the world
That's where you are wrong.. The CONSUMER has the power to force it to happen. The reason it isn't happening, is because it isn't necessary. Unless and until someone comes up with the "killer app" that there is no way to run over IPv4, the path of least cost is always going to be to extend the IPv4 network.
If someone big like Facebook were to say today that starting tomorrow, if you weren't on IPv6, you wouldn't have access, everyone would be outraged until next Monday, when "facebookclone.com" opened up and took all their old customers.. there's just no reason to even go there..
Yep.. I've played a multi-player game, and it worked just fine through MY NAT device, so why wouldn't it work through the ISPs.. If you are NOT running through a NAT these days, I'd be surprised and worried.
I bet if you do a survey, 999 out of 1000 home routers have no inbound ports open, which means that it makes no difference to the user, and the ISP is doing the rest of us a favor, hopefully blocking SOMETHING from being infected on those machines that would then start attacking the rest of us..
I'm all for it..
All of what you say is true, but it ignores the reality that well over 99% of the customers are residential customers, or even small businesses who will NEVER run a server on location. Switching customers to NAT is not only easier than moving to IPv6 (read: cheaper), but also provides the carrier an opportunity to introduce a tiered "premium" service at an additional cost, where a customer could get a real IP address if they really need one.
Personally, I think this is the inevitable future. 20 years from now, we'll look at IPv6 as a good protocol that never really caught on, because in the end, nobody really needed it.
If it were cheaper than Nuclear, it would by definition be more profitable than nuclear, and the technology would fund itself... Therefore, the fact that nobody has been successful on a large scale, even WITH the horribly corrupt and wasteful government subsidies prove to me that you're simply wrong.
Sure, it is true, that you could have a couple of acres of windmills and batteries supply a house or two with electricity, and you might even break even someday if you discount the maintenance costs, but in the real world, we need more power than wind can provide.
It might SEEM like NASA projects cost a lot, but when you care to include actual FACTS, you'll learn that the ENTIRE NASA BUDGET in 2008 was only $17 Billion. In a country that bails out GM for $800 Billion, and BORROWS $4 BILLION EVERY DAY, I'd say NASA had a pretty good record for return on investment.
Neil Armstrong is a true American hero and patriot, and I'm glad he had the opportunity and guts to tell Congress the very sad truth that under the current administration, our government has allowed NASA to completely fall apart. According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA) the ENTIRE 2008 BUDGET of NASA (NOT just the shuttle) was $17.3 Billion. This administration has wasted over $800 Billion in failed stimulus, all while castrating this agency which has provided America with so much technology that has been carried in to the private sector and our daily lives, as well as the non-tangible benefit of the PUBLIC PRIDE that our successes there have brought.
These days, our government spends over $11 BILLION PER DAY and BORROWS over $4 Billion of that money.. That's right - EVERY DAY.. Although I'm not in favor of INCREASING this number, it seems that NASA did an INCREDIBLE GOOD with what amounts to about 0.004% of the annual budget of our government, especially when compared to the money we WASTE on STUPID POLITICAL PAYOFFS to companies like Solyndra, getting HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF OUR DOLLARS as payoff to political friends of Obama. If anyone thinks that $17.3 Billion can't be shaved off the top to save NASA, they're very wrong.
I'm not an "Obama Hater" just to be an Obama hater.. I'm a GOVERNMENT WASTE HATER, and am just as against the $800 bailout that Bush initiated before he left office too. We need to stop taking partisan sides and blaming the other side, and we need to look at our priorities and fix the problems and restore pride in America. If we had any leadership in Washington today, we'd have a "Kennedy-like speech" in which we'd be challenged once again to stop looking to government for help, and be told that by the end of THIS DECADE that we would land AMERICANS on MARS, otherwise we're going to be RENTING research facilities up there from the Chinese in 20 years.
Only Chevy, after taking our bailout dollars and closing thousands of dealerships at the expense of tens of thousands of jobs would spend money to have SCIENTISTS try to quantify in a math formula, what constitutes a perfect handshake...
Your tax dollars at work.. or rather NOT at work..
What a waste of money and time.
AMEN.. Especially the part about letting the deadbeats get foreclosed on...
I love your idea of buying the shuttle and renting it back. It's PERFECT, ESPECIALLY if Obama kills Orion.. They'll need to rent it back for 20 or so more years..
Of course, dont get into any fixed-cost contracts, because with them printing new money like they are doing, inflation WILL go up...
-Steve
www.bothsidesarewrong.com
Dont blame me - I wrote in Ron Paul...
You're "mostly" right.. but, dont forget, there's a difference between throughput and latency...
Imagine your garden hose. a 200 foot hose may not slow down the water, and you're still getting the THROUGHPUT that you need (gallons per minute), but the water that comes out of the sprinkler head end may come out 20 seconds after it went into the other end of the hose (20 second latency)...
For some jobs, with sequential read/write, throughput may be all you need (and may be where the 1% rating comes from on the original poster's PGP stat) but for something that needs to stop and start, and/or have quick access to random data, waiting for a decryption/encryption engine isn't a good fit, even if it is hardware.
-Steve
At first glance, I thought I'd use this as a reason to continue my comcast bashing, but come on guys.. really? For a basic level of residential service, 250 gigs per month isn't that bad... 2 full length movies per day basically... I bet their top 1% of users dont use half of that on average.. And, this is a GOOD thing from the point of view that the "Excessive use policy" now has a defined cap, and you know what to avoid to stay off the "bad boy list".. Much better than arbitrarily getting a letter or phonecall just because they see you as a torrent user, therefore you MUST be bad...
-Steve
Sarcasm doesn't make you right. I am PLENTY sharing and giving, thank you very much, but I'd rather give to those charities which "teach a man to fish" rather than to have my pockets picked by big government to hand out the money like candy on halloween without any accountability.
Big government is the only organization which can use it's FAILURE as evidence that it NEEDS MORE MONEY, and then actually GET that money (from you and me) without changing any fundamental reason that they failed in the first place.
If I had more of my money back, I could donate it to those charities which do the right thing, instead of having it stolen. Unlike you, who apparently thinks big government can do better charitable work than a local community organization (or even an orgaization like the Red Cross), *I* believe in private, efficient charities that dont need weeks of red tape to decide where help needs to go, and hundreds of pages of paperwork to justify.
I maintain then, that a small government, supporting small business (not big money business supported lobbiests) will do more good for everyone, ESPECIALLY the poor. The big government mentality that we have now is based on the idea that the poor NEED the government, and then makes it largely true, by taxing them to death. I dont care if it's Ron Paul or not, but it's CERTAINLY not the three we have to choose from THIS time, and I'm personally tired of voting for the "lesser of TWO evils", because I'm tired of ALWAYS getting an EVIL elected.
Reaonable people can disagree, so I am hopeful that because we're able to have this conversation, that there is hope for the future, but I sure know it's not going to come from more mainstream Republicans and Democrats.
-Steve
Care to back your statement with any facts?? Show me where Ron Paul singles out blacks, poor, or unpopular prople....?? No? Can't do it? Didn't think so..
I think what you're referring to is that in a sustainable economy, it may no longer be MORE PROFITABLE to be lazy, and some of the "underemployed" people (REGARDLESS of color) may find it more lucrative to get a job, rather than to rely on the welfare of the rest of us. Personally, when I see 50% of my pay going to big government and the lazy, I think it's about damn time.
SO... unless you can back up with facts, I'll assume that you're unemployed, living on welfare, surfing the Internet at a free Library computer, and are just pissed that your free ride will end whenever enough people realize that they're funding the lazy.
-Steve
That's where you're wrong... ALL THREE major candidates *ARE* Proposing attacks on freedom. The Dems, by CRAZIER THAN EVER tax hikes and taking personal choice away from me in things like education and healthcare, and by McCain by continuing to infringe on all of our freedoms at home, by hyping the terror and fright, and extending "freedom laws" like the patriot act.
I know it's become an Internet cliche', but Ron Paul really is our only answer right now...
Re:This is why RFID is bad
on
NXP RFID Cracked
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
RFID is not a terrible concept - I would say instead that deployments that assume security are badly designed implementations..
For example, it may be that a grocery chain can still reasonably assume that efficiencies gained by using RFID outweigh the risks of being shoplifted blind by a 15 year old with a microcontroller who is re-programming the cigarette cartons to think they're snickers bars and taking them through the self-checkout...
Perhaps it's good enough to track books at the public library too, but I wouldn't think it's a good idea to link it to a personal bank through an e-commerce site..
How I wish that were true, but you miss a fundamental difference between private industry and the government... When a private company has such efficiency problems, it goes out of business, but when a government agency has trouble, the trouble is presented as "evidence" that "the problem is bigger than we thought" and that more money needs to be allocated to correct the problem. Of course, the fundamental problem which is ignored is the leadership of the organization wasting the money, so the problem never gets fixed, but budgets get bigger and bigger..
At least in the Military's case, their function is one which can be justified by the Constitution - Most of the other government waste is in programs that the government has no right to be spending a dime on in the first place...
We dont need 5gbps earpieces, and using that as an example is like saying "we dont need gas engines because all our towns are only three blocks long - Horses are fine.."
This has all kinds of other uses - Home security cameras, syncing your car's internal MP3 or video player with the latest off of your tivo while you're parked in the garage, backup your laptop when you come home for the night, and more importantly, a MILLION uses we can't even think of right now. If you have one in mind, I suggest you get to work on it before someone else does, and you'll be the next millionaire.
If they can project $10 costs before they're even out, wait 'till someone comes up with the killer app. In the meantime, I'll buy a couple just to sync my ipod while it's still in the car..
Slashdot Mirror
OK.. Again, I dont disagree - I dont know the details of, or even that there is an RFC concerning standard timeouts in NAT, however all of this argument is just to determine how densely you can overload one IP address, not that in concept the typical home user will notice it or not. I have seen companies with 1000+ employees get NAT'd down to a nat pool of one IP address and have no discernable problem, so I dont think a neighborhood of 1000 homes that mostly wont be in use simultaneously would have a problem sharing one address.. But, even if it's only a 10:1 reduction, it's still easier/cheaper than migrating the typical consumer to IPv6 and retrain the support staff..
Exactly my point.. The consumer doesn't care, and the TYPICAL consumer is price driven, so why upgrade them to an IPv6 network, and retrain all of your support staff, when your typical customer is happy if they can get to Facebook and google? NAT on an IPv4 network is fine for most people.. Those who care, will be willing to spend some extra per month to get a real IP address.. EVENTUALLY, there might be some functionality that the consumer demands, which can ONLY be provided on IPv6, at which time, there would be a reason for the typical consumer to care, and at that point, there will be a financial driver to force the upgrade. Until then, I'm betting no. I've been hearing the same IPv6 is coming mantra for 15 years or more, and it's still the same story..
I hear what you're saying, but I think network speed will do away with the effect of that.. my cable modem keeps getting faster and faster, so aside from an RTP video stream or something, none of my connections are open too long. Also, that problem just limits the value of "many" in the "one to many" nat scenario, and might force the ISP to build NAT pools per neighborhood.. I'm not saying Comcast is going to NAT us all down to one IP, but certainly we dont all need our own in a consumer grade service.
I like your listed steps, but I dont think anyone outside of the academic and/or government world will ever see "step 2" unless there's a killer-app that forces the consumer market to demand it.
The problem here is that nobody really has the necessary power to force IPv6 on the world
That's where you are wrong.. The CONSUMER has the power to force it to happen. The reason it isn't happening, is because it isn't necessary. Unless and until someone comes up with the "killer app" that there is no way to run over IPv4, the path of least cost is always going to be to extend the IPv4 network. If someone big like Facebook were to say today that starting tomorrow, if you weren't on IPv6, you wouldn't have access, everyone would be outraged until next Monday, when "facebookclone.com" opened up and took all their old customers.. there's just no reason to even go there..
Yep.. I've played a multi-player game, and it worked just fine through MY NAT device, so why wouldn't it work through the ISPs.. If you are NOT running through a NAT these days, I'd be surprised and worried. I bet if you do a survey, 999 out of 1000 home routers have no inbound ports open, which means that it makes no difference to the user, and the ISP is doing the rest of us a favor, hopefully blocking SOMETHING from being infected on those machines that would then start attacking the rest of us.. I'm all for it..
All of what you say is true, but it ignores the reality that well over 99% of the customers are residential customers, or even small businesses who will NEVER run a server on location. Switching customers to NAT is not only easier than moving to IPv6 (read: cheaper), but also provides the carrier an opportunity to introduce a tiered "premium" service at an additional cost, where a customer could get a real IP address if they really need one. Personally, I think this is the inevitable future. 20 years from now, we'll look at IPv6 as a good protocol that never really caught on, because in the end, nobody really needed it.
If it were cheaper than Nuclear, it would by definition be more profitable than nuclear, and the technology would fund itself... Therefore, the fact that nobody has been successful on a large scale, even WITH the horribly corrupt and wasteful government subsidies prove to me that you're simply wrong. Sure, it is true, that you could have a couple of acres of windmills and batteries supply a house or two with electricity, and you might even break even someday if you discount the maintenance costs, but in the real world, we need more power than wind can provide.
It might SEEM like NASA projects cost a lot, but when you care to include actual FACTS, you'll learn that the ENTIRE NASA BUDGET in 2008 was only $17 Billion. In a country that bails out GM for $800 Billion, and BORROWS $4 BILLION EVERY DAY, I'd say NASA had a pretty good record for return on investment.
Neil Armstrong is a true American hero and patriot, and I'm glad he had the opportunity and guts to tell Congress the very sad truth that under the current administration, our government has allowed NASA to completely fall apart. According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA) the ENTIRE 2008 BUDGET of NASA (NOT just the shuttle) was $17.3 Billion. This administration has wasted over $800 Billion in failed stimulus, all while castrating this agency which has provided America with so much technology that has been carried in to the private sector and our daily lives, as well as the non-tangible benefit of the PUBLIC PRIDE that our successes there have brought.
These days, our government spends over $11 BILLION PER DAY and BORROWS over $4 Billion of that money.. That's right - EVERY DAY.. Although I'm not in favor of INCREASING this number, it seems that NASA did an INCREDIBLE GOOD with what amounts to about 0.004% of the annual budget of our government, especially when compared to the money we WASTE on STUPID POLITICAL PAYOFFS to companies like Solyndra, getting HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF OUR DOLLARS as payoff to political friends of Obama. If anyone thinks that $17.3 Billion can't be shaved off the top to save NASA, they're very wrong.
I'm not an "Obama Hater" just to be an Obama hater.. I'm a GOVERNMENT WASTE HATER, and am just as against the $800 bailout that Bush initiated before he left office too. We need to stop taking partisan sides and blaming the other side, and we need to look at our priorities and fix the problems and restore pride in America. If we had any leadership in Washington today, we'd have a "Kennedy-like speech" in which we'd be challenged once again to stop looking to government for help, and be told that by the end of THIS DECADE that we would land AMERICANS on MARS, otherwise we're going to be RENTING research facilities up there from the Chinese in 20 years.
-Steve
BothSidesAreWrong@cherokeesystems.com
Only Chevy, after taking our bailout dollars and closing thousands of dealerships at the expense of tens of thousands of jobs would spend money to have SCIENTISTS try to quantify in a math formula, what constitutes a perfect handshake... Your tax dollars at work.. or rather NOT at work.. What a waste of money and time.
We call can't get our phones at the same time.. You log off, and I'll let you know when I'm done.. :-)
I love the space program too, but if we did that, we'd be a territory of China right now, and all living a communist life with no space program..
AMEN.. Especially the part about letting the deadbeats get foreclosed on... I love your idea of buying the shuttle and renting it back. It's PERFECT, ESPECIALLY if Obama kills Orion.. They'll need to rent it back for 20 or so more years.. Of course, dont get into any fixed-cost contracts, because with them printing new money like they are doing, inflation WILL go up... -Steve www.bothsidesarewrong.com Dont blame me - I wrote in Ron Paul...
You're "mostly" right.. but, dont forget, there's a difference between throughput and latency... Imagine your garden hose. a 200 foot hose may not slow down the water, and you're still getting the THROUGHPUT that you need (gallons per minute), but the water that comes out of the sprinkler head end may come out 20 seconds after it went into the other end of the hose (20 second latency)... For some jobs, with sequential read/write, throughput may be all you need (and may be where the 1% rating comes from on the original poster's PGP stat) but for something that needs to stop and start, and/or have quick access to random data, waiting for a decryption/encryption engine isn't a good fit, even if it is hardware. -Steve
At first glance, I thought I'd use this as a reason to continue my comcast bashing, but come on guys.. really? For a basic level of residential service, 250 gigs per month isn't that bad... 2 full length movies per day basically... I bet their top 1% of users dont use half of that on average.. And, this is a GOOD thing from the point of view that the "Excessive use policy" now has a defined cap, and you know what to avoid to stay off the "bad boy list".. Much better than arbitrarily getting a letter or phonecall just because they see you as a torrent user, therefore you MUST be bad... -Steve
Dont worry.. They'll be out by the time you're done.. :-) I feel your pain... Have a nice weekend!!!
-Steve Jones
[Tired of voting for the lesser of two evils? Come talk about it on www.bothsidesarewrong.com]
Sarcasm doesn't make you right. I am PLENTY sharing and giving, thank you very much, but I'd rather give to those charities which "teach a man to fish" rather than to have my pockets picked by big government to hand out the money like candy on halloween without any accountability.
Big government is the only organization which can use it's FAILURE as evidence that it NEEDS MORE MONEY, and then actually GET that money (from you and me) without changing any fundamental reason that they failed in the first place. If I had more of my money back, I could donate it to those charities which do the right thing, instead of having it stolen. Unlike you, who apparently thinks big government can do better charitable work than a local community organization (or even an orgaization like the Red Cross), *I* believe in private, efficient charities that dont need weeks of red tape to decide where help needs to go, and hundreds of pages of paperwork to justify.
I maintain then, that a small government, supporting small business (not big money business supported lobbiests) will do more good for everyone, ESPECIALLY the poor. The big government mentality that we have now is based on the idea that the poor NEED the government, and then makes it largely true, by taxing them to death. I dont care if it's Ron Paul or not, but it's CERTAINLY not the three we have to choose from THIS time, and I'm personally tired of voting for the "lesser of TWO evils", because I'm tired of ALWAYS getting an EVIL elected. Reaonable people can disagree, so I am hopeful that because we're able to have this conversation, that there is hope for the future, but I sure know it's not going to come from more mainstream Republicans and Democrats. -Steve
Care to back your statement with any facts?? Show me where Ron Paul singles out blacks, poor, or unpopular prople....?? No? Can't do it? Didn't think so.. I think what you're referring to is that in a sustainable economy, it may no longer be MORE PROFITABLE to be lazy, and some of the "underemployed" people (REGARDLESS of color) may find it more lucrative to get a job, rather than to rely on the welfare of the rest of us. Personally, when I see 50% of my pay going to big government and the lazy, I think it's about damn time. SO... unless you can back up with facts, I'll assume that you're unemployed, living on welfare, surfing the Internet at a free Library computer, and are just pissed that your free ride will end whenever enough people realize that they're funding the lazy. -Steve
That's where you're wrong... ALL THREE major candidates *ARE* Proposing attacks on freedom. The Dems, by CRAZIER THAN EVER tax hikes and taking personal choice away from me in things like education and healthcare, and by McCain by continuing to infringe on all of our freedoms at home, by hyping the terror and fright, and extending "freedom laws" like the patriot act.
I know it's become an Internet cliche', but Ron Paul really is our only answer right now...
RFID is not a terrible concept - I would say instead that deployments that assume security are badly designed implementations.. For example, it may be that a grocery chain can still reasonably assume that efficiencies gained by using RFID outweigh the risks of being shoplifted blind by a 15 year old with a microcontroller who is re-programming the cigarette cartons to think they're snickers bars and taking them through the self-checkout... Perhaps it's good enough to track books at the public library too, but I wouldn't think it's a good idea to link it to a personal bank through an e-commerce site..
Hey - Who let YOU in here! ;-)
How I wish that were true, but you miss a fundamental difference between private industry and the government... When a private company has such efficiency problems, it goes out of business, but when a government agency has trouble, the trouble is presented as "evidence" that "the problem is bigger than we thought" and that more money needs to be allocated to correct the problem. Of course, the fundamental problem which is ignored is the leadership of the organization wasting the money, so the problem never gets fixed, but budgets get bigger and bigger.. At least in the Military's case, their function is one which can be justified by the Constitution - Most of the other government waste is in programs that the government has no right to be spending a dime on in the first place...
If you have to explain your joke, is it indeed a "joke?"
We dont need 5gbps earpieces, and using that as an example is like saying "we dont need gas engines because all our towns are only three blocks long - Horses are fine.."
This has all kinds of other uses - Home security cameras, syncing your car's internal MP3 or video player with the latest off of your tivo while you're parked in the garage, backup your laptop when you come home for the night, and more importantly, a MILLION uses we can't even think of right now. If you have one in mind, I suggest you get to work on it before someone else does, and you'll be the next millionaire.
If they can project $10 costs before they're even out, wait 'till someone comes up with the killer app. In the meantime, I'll buy a couple just to sync my ipod while it's still in the car..