I personally rather have the 2 grand and get taxed at 30-40 percent.
But I really don't understand why you need an intermediary in the middle profiting for something that should belong to all. Because it's not like you can have an acceptable quality of life without medical treatments, so you actually need to have medical insurance. It's not like having a anti-burglar insurance, that might come handy, but I wouldn't die because of not having it. The insurance companies are profiting from something very serious... your health. So, why not simply remove them, and pay less for the same service... or the same for a better one?
See, that's the part I don't get about you people. How can you defend this system, that only benefits the insurance companies and the corporation behind them. Not the state, and certainly not the people.
Sure, as long as your government is not spending more than it takes in while doing ALL of that, as long as all the costs are covered without getting into debt, as long as nobody is working to undermine the system (which you know they are doing all the time), you can continue this way.
Well, yes, I agree with you in that part. But let's be serious here. We all know that the countries where this system works better and brings the more benefits and insurances to the population are in Northern Europe. And ALL those countries (except Iceland, but they are not a part of EU... yet) have their finances in very good condition and survived the crisis practically unscattered. So, giving this support doesn't bankrupt anyone.
Now, the problem with Southern Europe, where people have less support than in Northern one, so if that was the problem (the government spending on population care) they should actually be beter, but they are not because of s simple thing. Corruption. Only and just that. If you check the Ginni index of the southern European country, it's much higher (so worst) than Northern countries, meaning the wealth in much worst divided, meaning that some are getting the money that should belong to all.
So, don't blame Social Democracy, simply blame corrupt governants/public administrators.
Sounds like you are rich, it's just that 20-30% of your money doesn't appear on your budget since you're enjoying it through all these public services.
No, that's the part most of the Americans constantly fail to understand. I'm not rich in here, and I wouldn't still be rich if I hadn't to pay those extra 20%-30% more to get these benefits. In fact I doubt that 30% over the wage I get (around €1000 per month) would actually allowed my to buy all that stuff. More, I'm completely certain that it would not allow the people that earn the minimum wage (which in here is around €500 and that's very little even with these benefits), would allow them to have this.
But his is the great part about it. The 20%-30% that a very rich people also has to pay, it's enough to give the benefits to that rich one, and there is plenty of money left to get those same benefits to a bunch the ones that earn much less than them.
A small example. The tax over fuel in here it's huge. It's really one of the highest in EU, but on the other side, public transportation works well and it's quite cheap (€18 per month to travel as many time as you want in the metro, or €25 to travel all you want in metro and BUS). And I'm happy, it's this way. The city works much better than if everyone takes their cars around, it's less polluted, and it's better for the environment.
It's not Socialism, it's Social Democracy and when done really correctly it works beautifully, like you have to admit it works in Northern Europe... not so good in the South, but it's still ok in here. And well, although, Northern Europe is better in this social aspect and has all those nice blondes, but bah, it's too cold for me and the food kind of stinks... and all that contributes to your quality of life:)
I've looked into it, not that the 60+% taxes really make it appealing.......but when you're unemployed, you look at all options.
60% taxes, where? I would say, that the most taxing countries (France for instance), get at most 50%. But look at it in another way, yes, you pay 50% taxes, but that comes with UNIVERSAL health care, real rights to the ones that get unemployed, children support, practically FREE education all the way until the end of college (ok, in some countries you have to pay like €1000 per year when you are in the University, but in some other, they actually pay you to go to University, although it's just something like €300 per month).
And beside, what really kills me, is how you Americans just care about the money. Man, quality of life is much more than the money. It's support when you need it. It's knowing that you are protected in case something goes wrong and it's not entirely your fault, it's good climate (well, this only applies to Souther Europe), it's culture for free, it's really good food (once again... only in southern Europe:D), it's living in a city where you don't have to drive every morning to work cause the public mass transport system is really effective or because the centre of the city is also occupied by it's citizens... well, it's a very big bunch of many other things.
I might not be rich... but then again, I have everything I need to be happy, so what's the problem?
And we think you are spineless pussies that are free loading off the NATO alliance rather than paying for your own national defense......
You sir are not an idiot, you sir are a very ignorant idiot. The Article 5 of NATO chart (the one that one nation can invoke asking military aid of their allies) was invoked only once. BY THE USA after 9/11
Besides that. ALL the military conflicts where NATO was involved in any way where either started by USA or the intervention of any of NATO's countries in the conflict always started with the USA. Cuba missile crisis, the 2 Balkan interventions, 9/11 military naval assistance/patrolling and Afghanistan invasion.
Those where the only conflicts where NATO intervened, and like I said, they where all started by the USA, and Europe had to assist.
Besides, now that the cold war is over, Europe has more than the necessary means to deal with any regional threat. In fact we don't have regional threats, unless when we follow blindly the Americans (that's unfortunately what happened to UK and Spain because they took USA side in an armed conflict when invading Iraq and got bombed because of that), because we believe in diplomacy around this parts. We also do believe that we are better spending our money with those futile things, like universal health care and free education, than with more than the strictly necessary weapons.
I wonder where your original statement that US was not at war with any countries went then; based on your last remark to my statement. Care to enlighten us?
Yeah, they (the people from Louisiana) would be quite afraid to be made part of a country (France) where the state is really secular (not just on paper, but in practice) and where the people would make them the laughing stock of the nation in case they even considered this ridiculous idea (teaching creationism in science class) again.
On the other side they would receive the relief of knowing that if their little kids got cancer and they didn't had an insurance because they just lost their jobs and all their assets in a flood, the national health system would provide every treatment possible to save him, if they had financial problems they would not be let to starve, in case there was another natural disaster the government would actually help them rebuild their homes, they could enjoy good wine and a millenarian culture in lot's of different forms, so perhaps they would be wise take the deal.
Yeah, they (the people from Louisiana) would be quite afraid to be made part of a country (France) where the state is really secular (not just on paper, but in practice) and where the people would make them the laughing stock of the nation in case they even considered this ridiculous idea (teaching creationism in science class) again.
But you can disprove them! And that's what has been made again and again for the 500 years about religion, gods and now creationism. And yet... some people just want to force us to believe otherwise.
Well, do you know why it was relatively easy to trial so many Nazi army war criminals, from the highest general to the lowest soldier? It's simple, it was the German obsession for efficiency and reporting. There where reports of practically all the acts committed, so it was easy to get profs of all the misdeeds when you found the person in question.
Thankfully, new technologies are doing the same for every 1st world country now-a-days. And since USA is the only 1st world country constantly involved in wars, hopefully it will be possible in the future, in case there is a change for the better in USA government and administration, to bring to courts and have a real trial of some war criminals from there. And we all know there are certainly some around.
Only because the majority of the world's population live under dictatorships of one form or another
Ok, let me rephrase the parent comment.
"Strange. You'll find that majority of European Union population sees US as a bigger threat than Al-Qaeda or Talibans."
So, do we all live in dictatorships here in Europe as well? In fact if you check the various indexes of "freedom" (like the World Associated Press freedom of speech index and similar), all EU countries come on top of the USA. And guess what... we still think that USA is basically just fuck%& up the world for the profit of their corporations and ex-secretaries/ex-ministers.
What the US military is not good at is conquest, going in and taking a place over. For that you need lots and lots of troops on the ground, and a willingness to be fairly ruthless. None of that guarantees a conquest is successful, of course, history is full of people pushing out oppressors, but it is needed for it to work. That's not what the US army does, never has except for maybe in Japan in WWII.
Yeah, sure how humanitarian you are. Just in Japan MAYBE, you used some ATOMIC BOMBS on CIVILIAN POPULATION, but just MAYBE they where "fairly ruthless". Sure. In Vietnam, you where all a bunch of humanitarian folks. Distributing NAPALM to the populations and all.
I wonder what is the excuse your colleagues that fight in Iraq give to exactly the same accusations? Will you play the Christians against Muslims card as well? I wonder if any American still remembers how the war on Iraq started? I can assure you ion Europe we have that very well present.
I don't believe we are at war with any "countries" right now.
Gosh, I would think that the outright invasion of Iraq, that had nothing to do with attacks on USA, was a war in every sense of the word. Even more taking into account that there was one of the very few middle East countries where that "idealism" you talk about was well controlled by the most secular state of the region and the removal of the government by the USA was what actually allows the radical Muslim factions to gain control of the country. But thanks for showing me the way of enlightenment.
How easy it seems for the US government to manipulate the American public opinion.
And most of this is because when other countries get attacked by enemy forces, the US is the first country they come begging to for help.
And according to your line of thought, what is the excuse to the recent invasion of Iraq? Or the older invasion of Vietnam? Or the manipulation of politics and assassination of left wing leaders in South America during the last century? Or the Pig's Bay invasion of Cuba? Or the bombing of Libya? OR the military support to Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war? Or...
But very few have been so smugly two-faced and hypocritical about it, claiming their acts are done "in the name of safety and freedom" "to help free the local populace from horrible dictators", etc.
Well, not all the world... not even all the western world sees that as a bad thing. Many countries actually see it as a way to bring some stability to a zone that is completely unstable due to the presence of a militar super-power (for the region), Israel, and that by giving nuclear capability to other country in the region that would level out the status quo in the zone and prevent most of the violence that we have seen committed by Israel against their neighbours in the last decades.
It's a shame the USA'ian government/corporate masters wont let it happen though...:\
And what is the USA'ian government/corporate do, invade Brazil... yeah right? Embargo it and the biggest agricultural production of the planet... good luck with that? Overthrown the government... of course, good luck with that one as well, trying to disrupt the most stable country of South America.
i can assure you when the MILITARY designed the internet, free speech was the last thing on their mind
Here we go again. The military (and by military I think you are stating the US military, although it's not that important), didn't invent the internet. The internet was invented at CERN, which in case you don't know it's an European physics organization and doesn't have links with the military.
I wonder which companies will run the calculations and decide that they will lose more profits opening up than they would by simply leaving the European market.
Of course they will. Wake up and smell the coffee. EU is a bigger market for IT than US. They will do what they are being asked for. Funny fact is that I saw lot's of people saying exactly the same when EU imposed heavy fines and restrictions to the way Microsoft does business around here... do you see what happened?
And by the way, the biggest mobile phone producer of the world by far, had to live with with EU regulations since they started their business in the area, and they are doing pretty fine. Their name is Nokia.
Slashdot Mirror
I personally rather have the 2 grand and get taxed at 30-40 percent.
But I really don't understand why you need an intermediary in the middle profiting for something that should belong to all. Because it's not like you can have an acceptable quality of life without medical treatments, so you actually need to have medical insurance. It's not like having a anti-burglar insurance, that might come handy, but I wouldn't die because of not having it. The insurance companies are profiting from something very serious ... your health. So, why not simply remove them, and pay less for the same service ... or the same for a better one?
See, that's the part I don't get about you people. How can you defend this system, that only benefits the insurance companies and the corporation behind them. Not the state, and certainly not the people.
Sure, as long as your government is not spending more than it takes in while doing ALL of that, as long as all the costs are covered without getting into debt, as long as nobody is working to undermine the system (which you know they are doing all the time), you can continue this way.
Well, yes, I agree with you in that part. But let's be serious here. We all know that the countries where this system works better and brings the more benefits and insurances to the population are in Northern Europe. And ALL those countries (except Iceland, but they are not a part of EU ... yet) have their finances in very good condition and survived the crisis practically unscattered. So, giving this support doesn't bankrupt anyone.
Now, the problem with Southern Europe, where people have less support than in Northern one, so if that was the problem (the government spending on population care) they should actually be beter, but they are not because of s simple thing. Corruption. Only and just that. If you check the Ginni index of the southern European country, it's much higher (so worst) than Northern countries, meaning the wealth in much worst divided, meaning that some are getting the money that should belong to all.
So, don't blame Social Democracy, simply blame corrupt governants/public administrators.
Sounds like you are rich, it's just that 20-30% of your money doesn't appear on your budget since you're enjoying it through all these public services.
No, that's the part most of the Americans constantly fail to understand. I'm not rich in here, and I wouldn't still be rich if I hadn't to pay those extra 20%-30% more to get these benefits. In fact I doubt that 30% over the wage I get (around €1000 per month) would actually allowed my to buy all that stuff. More, I'm completely certain that it would not allow the people that earn the minimum wage (which in here is around €500 and that's very little even with these benefits), would allow them to have this.
But his is the great part about it. The 20%-30% that a very rich people also has to pay, it's enough to give the benefits to that rich one, and there is plenty of money left to get those same benefits to a bunch the ones that earn much less than them.
A small example. The tax over fuel in here it's huge. It's really one of the highest in EU, but on the other side, public transportation works well and it's quite cheap (€18 per month to travel as many time as you want in the metro, or €25 to travel all you want in metro and BUS). And I'm happy, it's this way. The city works much better than if everyone takes their cars around, it's less polluted, and it's better for the environment.
It's not Socialism, it's Social Democracy and when done really correctly it works beautifully, like you have to admit it works in Northern Europe ... not so good in the South, but it's still ok in here. And well, although, Northern Europe is better in this social aspect and has all those nice blondes, but bah, it's too cold for me and the food kind of stinks ... and all that contributes to your quality of life :)
I've looked into it, not that the 60+% taxes really make it appealing.......but when you're unemployed, you look at all options.
60% taxes, where? I would say, that the most taxing countries (France for instance), get at most 50%. But look at it in another way, yes, you pay 50% taxes, but that comes with UNIVERSAL health care, real rights to the ones that get unemployed, children support, practically FREE education all the way until the end of college (ok, in some countries you have to pay like €1000 per year when you are in the University, but in some other, they actually pay you to go to University, although it's just something like €300 per month).
And beside, what really kills me, is how you Americans just care about the money. Man, quality of life is much more than the money. It's support when you need it. It's knowing that you are protected in case something goes wrong and it's not entirely your fault, it's good climate (well, this only applies to Souther Europe), it's culture for free, it's really good food (once again ... only in southern Europe :D), it's living in a city where you don't have to drive every morning to work cause the public mass transport system is really effective or because the centre of the city is also occupied by it's citizens ... well, it's a very big bunch of many other things.
I might not be rich ... but then again, I have everything I need to be happy, so what's the problem?
And we think you are spineless pussies that are free loading off the NATO alliance rather than paying for your own national defense......
You sir are not an idiot, you sir are a very ignorant idiot. The Article 5 of NATO chart (the one that one nation can invoke asking military aid of their allies) was invoked only once. BY THE USA after 9/11
Besides that. ALL the military conflicts where NATO was involved in any way where either started by USA or the intervention of any of NATO's countries in the conflict always started with the USA. Cuba missile crisis, the 2 Balkan interventions, 9/11 military naval assistance/patrolling and Afghanistan invasion.
Those where the only conflicts where NATO intervened, and like I said, they where all started by the USA, and Europe had to assist.
Besides, now that the cold war is over, Europe has more than the necessary means to deal with any regional threat. In fact we don't have regional threats, unless when we follow blindly the Americans (that's unfortunately what happened to UK and Spain because they took USA side in an armed conflict when invading Iraq and got bombed because of that), because we believe in diplomacy around this parts. We also do believe that we are better spending our money with those futile things, like universal health care and free education, than with more than the strictly necessary weapons.
I wonder where your original statement that US was not at war with any countries went then; based on your last remark to my statement. Care to enlighten us?
What makes this people even more dumb and ignorant is that even the Vatican accepts Darwinian evolution and tries to find a place for god in it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html
LOL
Yeah, they (the people from Louisiana) would be quite afraid to be made part of a country (France) where the state is really secular (not just on paper, but in practice) and where the people would make them the laughing stock of the nation in case they even considered this ridiculous idea (teaching creationism in science class) again.
On the other side they would receive the relief of knowing that if their little kids got cancer and they didn't had an insurance because they just lost their jobs and all their assets in a flood, the national health system would provide every treatment possible to save him, if they had financial problems they would not be let to starve, in case there was another natural disaster the government would actually help them rebuild their homes, they could enjoy good wine and a millenarian culture in lot's of different forms, so perhaps they would be wise take the deal.
Yeah, they (the people from Louisiana) would be quite afraid to be made part of a country (France) where the state is really secular (not just on paper, but in practice) and where the people would make them the laughing stock of the nation in case they even considered this ridiculous idea (teaching creationism in science class) again.
You never prove claims in science.
But you can disprove them! And that's what has been made again and again for the 500 years about religion, gods and now creationism. And yet ... some people just want to force us to believe otherwise.
Well, do you know why it was relatively easy to trial so many Nazi army war criminals, from the highest general to the lowest soldier? It's simple, it was the German obsession for efficiency and reporting. There where reports of practically all the acts committed, so it was easy to get profs of all the misdeeds when you found the person in question.
Thankfully, new technologies are doing the same for every 1st world country now-a-days. And since USA is the only 1st world country constantly involved in wars, hopefully it will be possible in the future, in case there is a change for the better in USA government and administration, to bring to courts and have a real trial of some war criminals from there. And we all know there are certainly some around.
Only because the majority of the world's population live under dictatorships of one form or another
Ok, let me rephrase the parent comment.
"Strange. You'll find that majority of European Union population sees US as a bigger threat than Al-Qaeda or Talibans."
So, do we all live in dictatorships here in Europe as well? In fact if you check the various indexes of "freedom" (like the World Associated Press freedom of speech index and similar), all EU countries come on top of the USA. And guess what ... we still think that USA is basically just fuck%& up the world for the profit of their corporations and ex-secretaries/ex-ministers.
What the US military is not good at is conquest, going in and taking a place over. For that you need lots and lots of troops on the ground, and a willingness to be fairly ruthless. None of that guarantees a conquest is successful, of course, history is full of people pushing out oppressors, but it is needed for it to work. That's not what the US army does, never has except for maybe in Japan in WWII.
Yeah, sure how humanitarian you are. Just in Japan MAYBE, you used some ATOMIC BOMBS on CIVILIAN POPULATION, but just MAYBE they where "fairly ruthless". Sure. In Vietnam, you where all a bunch of humanitarian folks. Distributing NAPALM to the populations and all.
I wonder what is the excuse your colleagues that fight in Iraq give to exactly the same accusations? Will you play the Christians against Muslims card as well? I wonder if any American still remembers how the war on Iraq started? I can assure you ion Europe we have that very well present.
I don't believe we are at war with any "countries" right now.
Gosh, I would think that the outright invasion of Iraq, that had nothing to do with attacks on USA, was a war in every sense of the word. Even more taking into account that there was one of the very few middle East countries where that "idealism" you talk about was well controlled by the most secular state of the region and the removal of the government by the USA was what actually allows the radical Muslim factions to gain control of the country. But thanks for showing me the way of enlightenment.
How easy it seems for the US government to manipulate the American public opinion.
And most of this is because when other countries get attacked by enemy forces, the US is the first country they come begging to for help.
And according to your line of thought, what is the excuse to the recent invasion of Iraq? Or the older invasion of Vietnam? Or the manipulation of politics and assassination of left wing leaders in South America during the last century? Or the Pig's Bay invasion of Cuba? Or the bombing of Libya? OR the military support to Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war? Or ...
But very few have been so smugly two-faced and hypocritical about it, claiming their acts are done "in the name of safety and freedom" "to help free the local populace from horrible dictators", etc.
My thoughts exactly.
Well, not all the world ... not even all the western world sees that as a bad thing. Many countries actually see it as a way to bring some stability to a zone that is completely unstable due to the presence of a militar super-power (for the region), Israel, and that by giving nuclear capability to other country in the region that would level out the status quo in the zone and prevent most of the violence that we have seen committed by Israel against their neighbours in the last decades.
It's a shame the USA'ian government/corporate masters wont let it happen though... :\
And what is the USA'ian government/corporate do, invade Brazil ... yeah right? Embargo it and the biggest agricultural production of the planet ... good luck with that? Overthrown the government ... of course, good luck with that one as well, trying to disrupt the most stable country of South America.
You are right. I did mistake the two things. Although what are we talking here about is the Web, not the internet.
i can assure you when the MILITARY designed the internet, free speech was the last thing on their mind
Here we go again. The military (and by military I think you are stating the US military, although it's not that important), didn't invent the internet. The internet was invented at CERN, which in case you don't know it's an European physics organization and doesn't have links with the military.
Naa, it's just an marketing move, they know those 2 conditions are impossible to conciliate: US citizen and IQ over 125 ... pleeeese.
Yeah, I bet all Northern Europe is crying right now wishing they could be like the USA.
I wonder which companies will run the calculations and decide that they will lose more profits opening up than they would by simply leaving the European market.
Of course they will. Wake up and smell the coffee. EU is a bigger market for IT than US. They will do what they are being asked for. Funny fact is that I saw lot's of people saying exactly the same when EU imposed heavy fines and restrictions to the way Microsoft does business around here ... do you see what happened?
And by the way, the biggest mobile phone producer of the world by far, had to live with with EU regulations since they started their business in the area, and they are doing pretty fine. Their name is Nokia.