Iraq was much more of a French and Soviet client than American. The Republicans, if you remember backed Iran as much or more than they backed Iraq.
yes, however when regime changed in iran u.s. put his support behind saddam, even if it didnt directly sell weapons to them. iraq was one of the few countries where military-industry complex of u.s. allowed its allies to sell weapons to keep their mouth shut and happy than dominating it with its own weapon sales.
compared to u.s. weapon sales, sales of uk and france remains pathetic in numbers worldwide.
You comment about Turkey, but you remember that Turkey did not take part in the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
haha. are you kidding me ? surely it didnt join with its military force, but entire us forces used the biggest airbase in middle east, incirlik airbase to conduct operations. especially supply flights, and very probably the unmarked cia flights passed over incirlik. turkey is also doing the presidency of the afghanistan ISAF for the second time now, if im not mistaken.
Are you saying that the Labor Government of Blair, the Howard Government of Australia and the Polish Governments were implanted by the US?
while behind the scenes support for labor government of blair still possible, i dont say it outright. what is certain that they had a VERY appalling rate of mutual understanding and support, to the point of blair STILL insisting iraqi invasion on wmd charges were valid, and not admitting to any mistakes. the legislation labor government of blair passed in u.k. would put the most hardliner right wing government anywhere in europe to shame - basically uk is a police state now, as you know from the slashdot articles probably. howard government of australia. BOY. what an example. pigs need to fly for one not to be able to say he was an implanted government. i dont have any info on polish government.
see, money is power. in 2002, an upstart islamist party, leaders of which has gone to usa and taken bush's blessings, had spent an IMMENSE amount of money in elections, buying out everyone, almost handing out cash for votes. the amount they spent wasnt spent in entire 80 years of turkish multiparty election history in total. no such money could be found in turkey. and during these times you had a lot of cash gone missing from u.s. coffers with no accountability. in the years following 2000, conservative governments came to power everywhere one by one, even in sweden. it doesnt take 100 geniuses to understand that there was a major driving factor behind these sudden conservativism, and the outright blatant examples observed in some countries like turkey.
they would eventually corrupt those in power with money. it would only take a certain amount of money and accompanying threats.
leave even that, the very legal proceedings of an election campaign requires money, so in order to be able to get on mass media and spend the necessary advertising budget, the candidates NEED money. therefore, those who have the money call the shots in the end, regardless of whether you visualise that they dont have any more power than you, or not.
if there has been any similar occurrences in the former colonies those countries occupied, i would have brought them forward. not to mention that most of those countries fell to american backed dictators RIGHT after they were granted independence.
did you read the links i gave you ? also, dont come up with weak examples without getting history straight.
sues crisis was basically anthony eden's doing, a person who was on medication causing him to go half nuts, which is a matter that documentaries made upon. the guy was almost delusional.
iraq 1990 was a half legitimate invasion in order to bring a dictator gone out of the way to invade other countries. ironically, the dictator was heavily backed by u.s. before that time. i want to point out that one of the countries that dictator threatened to attack was turkey.
afghanistan, iraq 2003 can not be counted with the horrible, horrible examples i have given to you. these can be justified as a reaction at SOME level, in which, tho being unjust and wrong, those countries were brought into a coalition by US GOVERNMENT again.
its also another noteworthy point that most of the countries which joined that coalition had conservative governments or centrist governments that were VERY friendly with your GOP administration in those periods. some were implanted directly by u.s., like the islamist party in turkey.
its also another noteworthy point that no european corporation profited from those ventures.
i want to point out that during the majority of the cold war, u.s. generally was run by GOP dominance, either in white house or in the houses. so, this wonderful policy was basically their engineering.
dont you know that it was an official foreign policy of u.s. to implement coups in third world countries and implant dictators friendly to business interests of industrial-military complex for the last 60 years ?
the number of u.s. backed dictators in africa and south america in the span of 6 decades has been countless. and their reign bloody. this is one of the reasons why half of the world hates you americans.
excuse me, but if this is not 'turning countries upside down', i dont know what is.
european countries do not stage coups, do not invade other countries, do not buy out laws to kill local competition in other languages. leave that aside, some very important regulations were specifically brought to some fields with european incentive, like the regulations and labeling system to make sure that diamonds used in jewelry sector doesnt come from factions in african countries that employ child soldiers to suppress locales and keep power.
u.s. on the other hand, has been implementing coups and takeovers and installing petty dictators as a 'policy' since the last 60 years, as innumerable countries in south america and africa can testify.
Also, I thought I saw a Slashdot article in the past few days saying the EU (or maybe it was some European country) was rebelling against ACTA now.
European Parliament, parliament of european union, comprising of mps from entire europe demanded acta transparency, documents released to public, and banned any version of 3 strikes. they will also go to court if Eu commission doesnt comply. they are an exception tho, eu parl didnt have any real authority until last year, and all parties sent their most idealistic members there, to keep them away from home where they could cause less trouble. lobbies didnt have time to concentrate on eu parl, noone cared. they find themselves in a pinch now, a parliament that can talk for entire europe is filled with idealists. 667 idealists to be exact. they voted the resolution 667 to 13.
The ultimate problem, I believe, is centralization. Too much centralization makes it much easier for corruption to take root, and much harder to get rid of it, and once corporations have corrupted the government, centralization gives them much more power. Europe is much more decentralized: the countries are much smaller, are frequently at odds with each other, the EU's power is quite limited, heck they don't even speak the same language. The USA, OTOH, is very centralized: its Federal government is far too powerful, the States have very little power any more, so when a few Senators push through a bad law like DMCA or ACTA, the entire continent suffers. And due to American power in foreign matters, other countries suffer too as other countries' governments adopt many provisions to maintain favorable trade relations.
on the contrary, the problem is deregulation. if you are decentralized, companies will find it easier to lobby local governments. like in the above case, if eu parl wasnt there, acta would pass without problems in many individual countries' parliaments. but now, because they all agreed and signed to eu contract, they have to enforce eu rules and regulations. and now eu parliament banned 3 strikes from entire europe, and if anyone legislates any version of 3 strikes, they will be violating their Eu membership charter.
my opinion is its a problem of deregulation. if you allow too many freedoms to private parties, sooner or later some will exploit them to evil ends. deregulation is like abolishing courts of law, penal system and police, saying 'people can regulate themselves better'. in the end you would end up with local gangs dominating entire neighborhoods.
russia ? russia has NO principles in regard to anything. there is no hypocrisy there.
european countries suck up to china indeed, yet they dont go infesting other countries and turning them upside down for profit like american companies do. hell, they even turned your own country upside down, and you are the people complaining loudest about that.
to be honest, if it wasnt for the bush&co implanted islamist government taking turkey in direction of a potential new iran, i really would have been proud to call myself turk because turkey has done a lot of things in order to get compliant with Eu standards for candidacy in the last few decades. however....
on another note, i had high hopes of obama administration too, so far it failed me. i think im speaking for a lot of people around the world when i say that.
well, for starters, france is a socialist country in its roots, and they generally vote socialist party. socialist parties tend to be more people oriented. YET, still, french government had no qualms in passing 3 strikes shit in france.
germany has a more conservative society, but there is much responsibility tradition in regard to public service. yet still, they didnt have any issues in supporting acta secrecy, in addition to various enemy of internet/it stances they took.
all it does for a private interest to get its way is to support the biggest contender in a multi system party. because, any party has to get that support in order to get ahead of its competitors. so it spirals down all the same.
regardless of google leaves or stays, american companies are going to suck up to china, and american government is going to do that too. maybe only there will be a few weak statements regarding the state of human rights in china. it will be business as usual :
american companies are going to help chinese government in suppressing its own citizens for profit. american companies are going to help chinese government to do anything that conflicts with american constitution, and american ideals you people are so proud of.
and you get worked up everytime someone points that out....
If any American corporation is doing something you don't like in your country, it is YOUR government's fault for allowing it, and ultimately YOURS for letting them stay in power.
there is your problem. you people are unable to understand mechanics of wealth.
as long as groups or individuals can have much more wealth than anyone else, they are able to influence politicians to their ends.
as long as a country does not regulate the behavior of corporations, corporations will take any route they think they can get away with.
therefore, even if we people were conscious like otherworldly utopic aliens, your corporations, and rich who have been allowed mountains of wealth and not barred in their actions in any way, STILL would come and corrupt our politicians.
it doesnt apply only for u.s. though, it could happen in any country, to any country. it is a generic mechanic. the difference is that, you, in america let corporations run your country, and because they have won the 'battle' at home, they go infest other countries.
its not a problem of individual countries. its a global problem.
multiple party system doesnt solve anything, if i can testify from 80 years of turkish political history. uk, german, italian, french can testify to that end too. as long as there are people who can have much more money than anyone else, lobbying and puppeteering will remain.
i have no qualms with anything about nationalities at all. mine or others. i have lived long enough and lived through enough to be able to learn that identities, names, statuses, nationalities and so on does not matter, but the very specific character of any individual himself/herself. i dont get offended by shit.
and in addition, if a blanket majority of a population or, say, sample set, exhibits the same behavior, wouldnt it be logical to say that 'this sample set behaves this way' ? i mean, if it is otherwise, we need to drop generic names for stuff - not every house is the same, they wildly vary, not every fish is the same, they wildly vary. but yet, we use 'house' and 'fish' to identify general characteristics.
i, for one, exonerate anyone when they use blanket statements regarding my society or my group, IF my society/group exhibits the particular characteristic in general. its bare logic.
what i told up to this point is not my 'revenge'. its an outburst of emotion and truth. there are some issues in life that you cannot be all cool and detached about, and put it in politically correct ways. and you shouldnt either, because it takes away a lot from the seriousness of the situation. i mean, this is about our fucking food. ALL of us. not only turks, not only italians, not only americans. there can be no politics, views or opinions if we all have to feed from the hand of the same corporation. this is beyond logic.
no job can be the 'best job ever'. remember this : once you start doing something as job, it starts to be less 'fun' every day on and on, until at one point becoming a mere job itself.
no exceptions. it goes that way because people tend to dislike things that they are doing mandatorily and regularly, instead of doing them whenever they want to do them and desire to do them.
for any job to not go down the same way, the person needs to have a passion, an obsession with that particular job/activity. however, this is the reality for only a tiny percentage of global population. and we generally end up seeing them as prominent members of their fields, if they work in a field that has any media coverage or peer recognition.
its american attitude. they are generally detached and uncaring for many stuff, especially what their government and corporations cause in other countries. that is if they have any interest in what is happening in other countries at all, most think that u.s. is the center of the world and 'best place to be', as if scandinavian countries didnt exist..
they rant on and on about various stuff, deliver judgments about other countries and their positions, other nations, and whatnot if they have any international interest.
however when the horror their corporations and their corporate controlled governments inflicting upon the rest of the world, they get worked up.
its ironic that, they are the loudest when it comes to complaining about how their government is corporate controlled. they may be lacking the wisdom to be able to think that they wouldnt be the only ones getting exploited.
im sure most of the people reading this thread wont even know that the entire earth's food supply is cornered and any competition, hell, even local variants of entire crops have been killed to kill competition, by one of their corporations, monsanto. including their own food supply, which has its price raising because monsanto is doing that.
it is beyond conspiracy, it is beyond imagination. it is appalling to think that such practices can even be conceived in the first place, leave aside implemented...
Slashdot Mirror
im talking about the last 60 years, not last 300 years.
here, compare your list :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
this one is a blast :
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/ [bluebloggin.com]
a detailed list :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html [thirdworldtraveler.com]
it was an additional reply to one of your own replies. you probably read the first, and missed the other. here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
this one is a blast :
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/
a detailed list :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
indeed noone is sinless. but compared to the sins of u.s. europe comes up almost sinless. compare you petty little list to these :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
im not even going to count cia doing drug trading in order to support its operations in vietnam and south america.
Iraq was much more of a French and Soviet client than American. The Republicans, if you remember backed Iran as much or more than they backed Iraq.
yes, however when regime changed in iran u.s. put his support behind saddam, even if it didnt directly sell weapons to them. iraq was one of the few countries where military-industry complex of u.s. allowed its allies to sell weapons to keep their mouth shut and happy than dominating it with its own weapon sales.
compared to u.s. weapon sales, sales of uk and france remains pathetic in numbers worldwide.
You comment about Turkey, but you remember that Turkey did not take part in the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
haha. are you kidding me ? surely it didnt join with its military force, but entire us forces used the biggest airbase in middle east, incirlik airbase to conduct operations. especially supply flights, and very probably the unmarked cia flights passed over incirlik. turkey is also doing the presidency of the afghanistan ISAF for the second time now, if im not mistaken.
Are you saying that the Labor Government of Blair, the Howard Government of Australia and the Polish Governments were implanted by the US?
while behind the scenes support for labor government of blair still possible, i dont say it outright. what is certain that they had a VERY appalling rate of mutual understanding and support, to the point of blair STILL insisting iraqi invasion on wmd charges were valid, and not admitting to any mistakes. the legislation labor government of blair passed in u.k. would put the most hardliner right wing government anywhere in europe to shame - basically uk is a police state now, as you know from the slashdot articles probably. howard government of australia. BOY. what an example. pigs need to fly for one not to be able to say he was an implanted government. i dont have any info on polish government.
see, money is power. in 2002, an upstart islamist party, leaders of which has gone to usa and taken bush's blessings, had spent an IMMENSE amount of money in elections, buying out everyone, almost handing out cash for votes. the amount they spent wasnt spent in entire 80 years of turkish multiparty election history in total. no such money could be found in turkey. and during these times you had a lot of cash gone missing from u.s. coffers with no accountability. in the years following 2000, conservative governments came to power everywhere one by one, even in sweden. it doesnt take 100 geniuses to understand that there was a major driving factor behind these sudden conservativism, and the outright blatant examples observed in some countries like turkey.
they would eventually corrupt those in power with money. it would only take a certain amount of money and accompanying threats.
leave even that, the very legal proceedings of an election campaign requires money, so in order to be able to get on mass media and spend the necessary advertising budget, the candidates NEED money. therefore, those who have the money call the shots in the end, regardless of whether you visualise that they dont have any more power than you, or not.
if there has been any similar occurrences in the former colonies those countries occupied, i would have brought them forward. not to mention that most of those countries fell to american backed dictators RIGHT after they were granted independence.
did you read the links i gave you ? also, dont come up with weak examples without getting history straight.
sues crisis was basically anthony eden's doing, a person who was on medication causing him to go half nuts, which is a matter that documentaries made upon. the guy was almost delusional.
iraq 1990 was a half legitimate invasion in order to bring a dictator gone out of the way to invade other countries. ironically, the dictator was heavily backed by u.s. before that time. i want to point out that one of the countries that dictator threatened to attack was turkey.
afghanistan, iraq 2003 can not be counted with the horrible, horrible examples i have given to you. these can be justified as a reaction at SOME level, in which, tho being unjust and wrong, those countries were brought into a coalition by US GOVERNMENT again.
its also another noteworthy point that most of the countries which joined that coalition had conservative governments or centrist governments that were VERY friendly with your GOP administration in those periods. some were implanted directly by u.s., like the islamist party in turkey.
its also another noteworthy point that no european corporation profited from those ventures.
i want to point out that during the majority of the cold war, u.s. generally was run by GOP dominance, either in white house or in the houses. so, this wonderful policy was basically their engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
this one is a blast :
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/
a detailed list :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
dont you know that it was an official foreign policy of u.s. to implement coups in third world countries and implant dictators friendly to business interests of industrial-military complex for the last 60 years ?
the number of u.s. backed dictators in africa and south america in the span of 6 decades has been countless. and their reign bloody. this is one of the reasons why half of the world hates you americans.
excuse me, but if this is not 'turning countries upside down', i dont know what is.
european countries do not stage coups, do not invade other countries, do not buy out laws to kill local competition in other languages. leave that aside, some very important regulations were specifically brought to some fields with european incentive, like the regulations and labeling system to make sure that diamonds used in jewelry sector doesnt come from factions in african countries that employ child soldiers to suppress locales and keep power.
u.s. on the other hand, has been implementing coups and takeovers and installing petty dictators as a 'policy' since the last 60 years, as innumerable countries in south america and africa can testify.
Also, I thought I saw a Slashdot article in the past few days saying the EU (or maybe it was some European country) was rebelling against ACTA now.
European Parliament, parliament of european union, comprising of mps from entire europe demanded acta transparency, documents released to public, and banned any version of 3 strikes. they will also go to court if Eu commission doesnt comply. they are an exception tho, eu parl didnt have any real authority until last year, and all parties sent their most idealistic members there, to keep them away from home where they could cause less trouble. lobbies didnt have time to concentrate on eu parl, noone cared. they find themselves in a pinch now, a parliament that can talk for entire europe is filled with idealists. 667 idealists to be exact. they voted the resolution 667 to 13.
The ultimate problem, I believe, is centralization. Too much centralization makes it much easier for corruption to take root, and much harder to get rid of it, and once corporations have corrupted the government, centralization gives them much more power. Europe is much more decentralized: the countries are much smaller, are frequently at odds with each other, the EU's power is quite limited, heck they don't even speak the same language. The USA, OTOH, is very centralized: its Federal government is far too powerful, the States have very little power any more, so when a few Senators push through a bad law like DMCA or ACTA, the entire continent suffers. And due to American power in foreign matters, other countries suffer too as other countries' governments adopt many provisions to maintain favorable trade relations.
on the contrary, the problem is deregulation. if you are decentralized, companies will find it easier to lobby local governments. like in the above case, if eu parl wasnt there, acta would pass without problems in many individual countries' parliaments. but now, because they all agreed and signed to eu contract, they have to enforce eu rules and regulations. and now eu parliament banned 3 strikes from entire europe, and if anyone legislates any version of 3 strikes, they will be violating their Eu membership charter.
my opinion is its a problem of deregulation. if you allow too many freedoms to private parties, sooner or later some will exploit them to evil ends. deregulation is like abolishing courts of law, penal system and police, saying 'people can regulate themselves better'. in the end you would end up with local gangs dominating entire neighborhoods.
russia ? russia has NO principles in regard to anything. there is no hypocrisy there.
european countries suck up to china indeed, yet they dont go infesting other countries and turning them upside down for profit like american companies do. hell, they even turned your own country upside down, and you are the people complaining loudest about that.
i get the odd feeling that google will leave
to be honest, if it wasnt for the bush&co implanted islamist government taking turkey in direction of a potential new iran, i really would have been proud to call myself turk because turkey has done a lot of things in order to get compliant with Eu standards for candidacy in the last few decades. however ....
on another note, i had high hopes of obama administration too, so far it failed me. i think im speaking for a lot of people around the world when i say that.
monsanto has more money than turkey itself, and it can easily buy any politician.
did mao kill more than 10 million chinese ?
well, for starters, france is a socialist country in its roots, and they generally vote socialist party. socialist parties tend to be more people oriented. YET, still, french government had no qualms in passing 3 strikes shit in france.
germany has a more conservative society, but there is much responsibility tradition in regard to public service. yet still, they didnt have any issues in supporting acta secrecy, in addition to various enemy of internet/it stances they took.
all it does for a private interest to get its way is to support the biggest contender in a multi system party. because, any party has to get that support in order to get ahead of its competitors. so it spirals down all the same.
regardless of google leaves or stays, american companies are going to suck up to china, and american government is going to do that too. maybe only there will be a few weak statements regarding the state of human rights in china. it will be business as usual :
american companies are going to help chinese government in suppressing its own citizens for profit. american companies are going to help chinese government to do anything that conflicts with american constitution, and american ideals you people are so proud of.
and you get worked up everytime someone points that out ....
If any American corporation is doing something you don't like in your country, it is YOUR government's fault for allowing it, and ultimately YOURS for letting them stay in power.
there is your problem. you people are unable to understand mechanics of wealth.
as long as groups or individuals can have much more wealth than anyone else, they are able to influence politicians to their ends.
as long as a country does not regulate the behavior of corporations, corporations will take any route they think they can get away with.
therefore, even if we people were conscious like otherworldly utopic aliens, your corporations, and rich who have been allowed mountains of wealth and not barred in their actions in any way, STILL would come and corrupt our politicians.
it doesnt apply only for u.s. though, it could happen in any country, to any country. it is a generic mechanic. the difference is that, you, in america let corporations run your country, and because they have won the 'battle' at home, they go infest other countries.
its not a problem of individual countries. its a global problem.
multiple party system doesnt solve anything, if i can testify from 80 years of turkish political history. uk, german, italian, french can testify to that end too. as long as there are people who can have much more money than anyone else, lobbying and puppeteering will remain.
basically what you are saying is that u.s., even the world will be better off if mayan end of the world thing comes at 2012.
i have no qualms with anything about nationalities at all. mine or others. i have lived long enough and lived through enough to be able to learn that identities, names, statuses, nationalities and so on does not matter, but the very specific character of any individual himself/herself. i dont get offended by shit.
and in addition, if a blanket majority of a population or, say, sample set, exhibits the same behavior, wouldnt it be logical to say that 'this sample set behaves this way' ? i mean, if it is otherwise, we need to drop generic names for stuff - not every house is the same, they wildly vary, not every fish is the same, they wildly vary. but yet, we use 'house' and 'fish' to identify general characteristics.
i, for one, exonerate anyone when they use blanket statements regarding my society or my group, IF my society/group exhibits the particular characteristic in general. its bare logic.
what i told up to this point is not my 'revenge'. its an outburst of emotion and truth. there are some issues in life that you cannot be all cool and detached about, and put it in politically correct ways. and you shouldnt either, because it takes away a lot from the seriousness of the situation. i mean, this is about our fucking food. ALL of us. not only turks, not only italians, not only americans. there can be no politics, views or opinions if we all have to feed from the hand of the same corporation. this is beyond logic.
no job can be the 'best job ever'. remember this : once you start doing something as job, it starts to be less 'fun' every day on and on, until at one point becoming a mere job itself.
no exceptions. it goes that way because people tend to dislike things that they are doing mandatorily and regularly, instead of doing them whenever they want to do them and desire to do them.
for any job to not go down the same way, the person needs to have a passion, an obsession with that particular job/activity. however, this is the reality for only a tiny percentage of global population. and we generally end up seeing them as prominent members of their fields, if they work in a field that has any media coverage or peer recognition.
its american attitude. they are generally detached and uncaring for many stuff, especially what their government and corporations cause in other countries. that is if they have any interest in what is happening in other countries at all, most think that u.s. is the center of the world and 'best place to be', as if scandinavian countries didnt exist..
they rant on and on about various stuff, deliver judgments about other countries and their positions, other nations, and whatnot if they have any international interest.
however when the horror their corporations and their corporate controlled governments inflicting upon the rest of the world, they get worked up.
its ironic that, they are the loudest when it comes to complaining about how their government is corporate controlled. they may be lacking the wisdom to be able to think that they wouldnt be the only ones getting exploited.
im sure most of the people reading this thread wont even know that the entire earth's food supply is cornered and any competition, hell, even local variants of entire crops have been killed to kill competition, by one of their corporations, monsanto. including their own food supply, which has its price raising because monsanto is doing that.
http://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+horror&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
it is beyond conspiracy, it is beyond imagination. it is appalling to think that such practices can even be conceived in the first place, leave aside implemented ...