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China Warns Google To Obey Or Leave
suraj.sun writes with this snippet from an Associated Press report:
"China's top Internet regulator insisted Friday that Google must obey its laws or 'pay the consequences,' giving no sign of a possible compromise in their dispute over censorship and hacking. 'If you want to do something that disobeys Chinese law and regulations, you are unfriendly, you are irresponsible and you will have to pay the consequences,' Li Yizhong, the minister of Industry and Information Technology, said on the sidelines of China's annual legislature. ... 'Whether they leave or not is up to them,' Li said. 'But if they leave, China's Internet market is still going to develop.' ... Li insisted the government needs to censor Internet content to protect the rights of the country and its people. 'If there is information that harms stability or the people, of course we will have to block it,' he said."
Mr. Google:
Before leaving, please deploy a transparent, ubiquitous distributed darknet app. I just know you're sitting on one.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
The question is will Google jump off the tracks before the China train hits them.
I really don't know who would be more hurt by this. On one hand, Google provides huge resources to China, but on the other hand...google surely gets a lot of revenue from such a huge market.
Well Google should tell China they can deep throat it and choke. I'm all for companies having to comply with national and international laws, but censoring search results is NOT something they should comply with. I realize this gets into the grey area of "who are you to decide what's right and what's wrong", but still...government-sponsored censorship of search results? Nothing you could do or say could convince me that is a good idea.
Information yearns to be free.
Living With a Nerd
..and if we want your data, we'll take it and you'll like it. Seems Google found someone more evil than them.
"Protecting the rights of the country and its people", brought to you by the Ministry of Truth.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
This will settle once and for all whether or not Google's motto represents true company ethics, or pandering. Go, Google! Set a true example for the modern corporate world to follow!
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
regardless of google leaves or stays, american companies are going to suck up to china, and american government is going to do that too. maybe only there will be a few weak statements regarding the state of human rights in china. it will be business as usual :
american companies are going to help chinese government in suppressing its own citizens for profit. american companies are going to help chinese government to do anything that conflicts with american constitution, and american ideals you people are so proud of.
and you get worked up everytime someone points that out ....
Read radical news here
Li insisted the government needs to censor Internet content to protect the rights of the country and its people.
Li is a lying little tyrannical thug. What he would say if he were an honest man, is that the Chinese government is scared to death of what might happen to the party minions when ordinary Chinese realize that Mao killed more of them than Tojo.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Anything that would promote a different party is harming stability right? I mean, we can't afford to change our dictator too often if we wish to preserve stability!
I'd advise Google to get all of its employees out of China that they don't want to be found dead someplace if they want to continue to be defiant.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Their government does not want the kind of "openness" and free exchange of information that is Google's trade. That is their prerogative. Google should pull out.
They won't, of course. Too much money to be made there.
They will cave in, compromise, and do (more) Evil.
It'll be interesting to see how Google's PR monkeys spin it, from a front-row-seat-at-the-Fall-of-Civilization perspective...
Governments are the enemy of its people in all cases and in all nations. The highest form of patriotism to ones country is to constantly question, challenge and investigate all government officials in every nation, in every circumstance. Don't let secrets be held.
Why should any country grant an exemption from their law in response to the threats of a corporation. Only in the U.S. would such an idiotic proposal be taken seriously. China's censorship may suck, but they shouldn't grant any corporation a special exemption from it in response to threats. It isn't like there isn't any censorship in the U.S. DMCA take down? Ring a bell?
You bitch about China, but you continue to buy their wares. You let the U.S. go farther into debt and let China lend us more cash.
Hypocrites.
'If there is information that harms stability or the people, of course we will have to block it,' he said."
Yes, wouldn't want the people to know about the corruption of your officials. That wouldn't be a good thing.
I used the issue of China in my IT ethics class and said that having Google or Cisco leave China because they refuse to censor brings up a whole host of other issues. If Google leaves, are they taking their code and such with them? What about equipment they used? Are they scrubbing that before leaving? What about any documents pertaining to how their searches are done?
While the Chinese people won't see much of a difference if Google leaves, the Chinese IT folks might have some issues recreating what was once there. Personally, Google should leave and post whatever information they want so people know what they had to deal with in China.
As most asian countries have a cultural bias towards not losing stature, having their dirty laundry aired, the really dirty stuff, would be a mighty slap in the face which China won't be able to deny so easily. They'll deny it, but their words will ring hollow.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
As much as I hate to say it, China really has Google by the balls on this one. I'm sure there are a million companies with the right connections/deep enough pockets in China right now eagerly waiting to assume Google's spot on the hill and they are all willing to do whatever the government there says.
I really don't see how Google can adhere to its corporate mission statement and continue to do business with China, although part of me has a hunch that we'll find out since shareholders will demand Google not leave one of the largest markets in the world.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Anytime some dumbass talks about censoring for your own good, like Australia or New Zealand, people should use this quote. Like China?
Hillary has asked Al to go to China to recover Google and the internet he created from the hands of the evil dictatorship of the Chinese people.
China's Internet market is still going to develop.. Without Google's help for the oppression part. Rights of it's country and people... Our country here has no rights it is composed of people who have rights unlike the people there. Block it.. Of course, anything that brings the day closer to China's dictatorship falling and their leaders heads on pikes must be subverted and assassinated in the most perverse manners to "Protect the Rights of the Country." Oh yeah, and I'm going to post anonymously because you can't do that there as well... After all people must be "responsible" for their words..
i get the odd feeling that google will leave
Read radical news here
That must be a specific kind of information that I'm not so familiar with. Sure thing, there are things you can *do* with information that can harm stability or people, but to blame information itself always strikes me as madness.
It's like those people that say you cannot study homo-sexuality because the outcome could have severe consequences. By now we know that homo-sexuality does seem to imply physical manifestations. Personally I don't think that information has changed much in how we treat homo-sexual persons at all (for good or for worse).
Even in the western world there seems to be way too much information that gets hidden away for such purposes, e.g. for national security. In almost all cases that don't directly involve e.g. names of persons in sensitive operations, it's poppy-cock. And even then the information should be open to the public directly after that kind of information is not directly harmful those involved.
Of course the censorship is a terrible thing. That's pretty much a given. But at least the government is sticking to their rules for all parties rather than bending them or making deals for 'influential' organizations.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
China's leaders still live in a world of controlled information flow to the masses. This works well if the masses have to come to you for their information and culturally accept this form of government.
The more Chinese that return home after being abroad and experiencing a free flow of information, the faster these policies will no longer be tolerated by the masses. Government will have to change with the times. But the change will have to come from within and it will take another generation or two.
For now, Google has to play by the rules of those in power. The business opportunity is too great to ignore, so we can predict they will conform.
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
Any government that is afraid of its people having information
(let's perhaps make an exception for specific information on how to make weapons of mass destruction
out of common household ingredients)
is inherently not a government "of the people for the people".
It is not confident in its own popularity, or in the inherent stability through general agreement
of its governmental system.
Does the Chinese government not realize that their insistence on censorship simply
highlights the inherent weakness in their government and system of government?
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
If they're inserting information in to their results, it's obvious there will be traces of lead, causing the users of the internet to get cancer.
Nobody in power in the world actually cares at all, they just use it to rile up their own people against foreign governments. When push comes to shove stuff will get done and "human rights" will not get in the way.
Repeat that to yourself thousands of times - after a while, even you will believe it. But you know, just because you don't see righteous people and deeds that go beyond pure self-interest, it doesn't mean that they don't exist, and that others can't see it, too.
Go selling your distopian views of humankind to someone else.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
is that the West thinks that the Chinese are so helpless and so ignorant that they need us to save them from their corrupt government. China is a huge, diverse country that is working its way toward modernization and first-world status. It's tough going, but I have no doubts that they will get there eventually. I don't think that the West can make the process go any quicker. That said, Google should stay and just be there as things open up.
Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
If it harms stability *or the people*...
Should be, if it harms the people, or stability.
ie - censorship harms the people - so it should go, since the people are more important than the government and it's own closed minded grasps at tyrannical control.
But of course, when you rely on keeping people ignorant of how things truly are, you're bound to step on many, many, many (billions of many(s)) necks and data lines.
Before I get modded troll, consider he does actually have a point. Openness and free exchange of information are serious threats to social stability in China (which is, as others have pointed out, what Google does best). China watched the fall of the Soviet Union as a result of glasnost and perestroika. They are eager to avoid the same mistake, as the costs of social instability (both human and economic) would be far too high, for the country, its people, and not least themselves.
This isn't about Tiananmen or the Great Leap Forward, which are pretty much open secrets. It's about suppressing free flow of information, and maintaining control over all mediums of information exchange. They had control of the traditional media, phones, SMS, etc. The internet is another beast. Finding out and sharing information about corruption and other major shortfalls is far too easy with an open, uncensored internet. They don't want peasants knowing too much about local corruption, and when they do know, they don't want them to be able to organize or share this information. Censorship is a key component; allowing criticism of the government even on such now-unimportant bygones as the Great Leap Forward would potentially open the floodgates on new criticism on issues that could result in instability.
So, Li is right. In order to suppress dissent, they must maintain control and continue censoring. Whether you think the cost imposed by censorship and lack of free speech is greater than the potential losses from any resulting social instability is another matter entirely. Many Chinese think, and I often agree, that while the Chinese government is too sensitive right now, maintaining a stable environment for economic growth is a bigger priority than free speech. The farmers I talked to in Shandong and Jilin also agreed- they know they're getting shafted in comparison to urban dwellers, but they're still doing better than at any time in history, and would rather not lose their chance at a new fridge, air conditioning, and a TV in return for some abstract ideas about freedom to criticize the government. In their minds, censorship and its evils are the lesser evil, when compared to potential civil strife.
Excuse my ignorance, but does Google have to have a physical presence in China to serve the Chinese market? I can Google google.uk. Couldn't people in China do the same, and then it would be China's job to filter the results? Also, why can't Google move their Chinese headquarters to Hong Kong? My understanding is that the Chinese government takes a much more hands-off attitude there.
I imagine that there's very good reasons why none of this would work, or Google probably would have done it already, but I'm curious as to what those reasons might be.
They're pulling out because on top of all the bullshit censoring, they were CONSTANTLY attempted to be hacked by the GOVERNMENT. That's why they're leaving. It's not worth it.
Firewalls can work in both directions.
The rest of the world (organized through ICANN, say) could impose sanctions on China for unreasonable restriction of trade.
Specifically, it could impose limits on routing from China to the rest of the Internet, perhaps replacing all outside content with
this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
What kind of bullshit is this? Censorship to "Protect the national consciousness"? So what communist party pamphlet are you reading that from? Information is more free, more open, and more diverse than it has ever been. That scares a lot of folks, even in the West, and you can be sure it scares the shit out of the ruling elite in China..
on them...
Maybe like, push all the pages about Tiananmen Square and Falun Gong to the top of search results for searches containing "China"
Muahhaha
Fixed that for him...
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
And one would think that Apple, with its high profit margins, would be able to manufacture its products somewhere else more civilized than China.
'If there is information that harms stability or the people, of course we will have to block it,'
If information can harm the stability of you're country, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!
Google, you MUST follow the law....
Constitution of the People's Republic of China ...
Article 35 . Freedom of speech, press, assembly
Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
So, I say Google, please, PLEASE, call their bluff on the international stage.
Say that you agree that you must follow the law, Say 'Oh, we are so very sorry for all of this _MIS_UNDERSTANDING. So VERY sorry China' and then quote the Chinese Constitution Article 35 and say that according to the law you are not obligated to censor anything.
ANYTHING.
Then flip the switch. Flip it right that second. Open up to everything on the net.
Heck, cache the stuff that china has you censor and throw CD copies out the window of cabs in the citys.
Before they get to you paper every subversive thing you can anywhere you can. Get it out there with the people.
When China shuts you down sue the crap out of them with the WTO and any other international body you can find. You know free trade and illegal profit restriction or what ever other BS actually counts in courts now.
Make their newsspeak people try to spin around it and just keep hammering home the Constitution angle.
Keep saying that not censoring is LEGAL. Keep reminding people that they have a RIGHT;
A right that is spelled out in black and white in the Constitution of China, to FREE SPEECH, PRESS, and ASSEMBLY.
China authorities always do whatever they want but when international body's complain they always quote freedom of speech, religion, or right to property in the Constitution they ignore.
Remind the good citizens of China that THEY HAVE RIGHTS, the rights everyone has, and the rights their own constitution 'grants' overrides the wishes of their corrupt government.
I want to see the spin on that...
Good for you Google... FOLLOW THE LAW LIKE THEY WANT and cram it right down their throats and make them choke on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
Big Business will ALWAYS cozy up to totalitarian government. Its interest is always greedy and short-sighted. Only government--powerful government--can stop it.
It sucks, but that's the way it is.
What China should fear is instead the risk of having their connection to the rest of the internet cut off or at least limited.
Why? It would be an irrational fear. There will always be corporate whores willing to do China's bidding for profit. Bing!
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
I am not sure that this is really about censorship. This is a staring contest.
Google called China out as a pack of thieves and thugs by revealing their hacking and break-ins.
Google made a statement that this was close to the 'last straw', and that they were thinking of leaving China.
This is an attempt by China to try to out stare Google. The topic on the table isn't really the question of 'Will Google stay in China an stop filtering the internet'? By changing the focus of the debate, China is trying to recast the issue as China's laws vs. a foreign company who doesn't want to follow them.
If Google leave under these terms, it doesn't look as bad for China.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
dont you know that it was an official foreign policy of u.s. to implement coups in third world countries and implant dictators friendly to business interests of industrial-military complex for the last 60 years ?
the number of u.s. backed dictators in africa and south america in the span of 6 decades has been countless. and their reign bloody. this is one of the reasons why half of the world hates you americans.
excuse me, but if this is not 'turning countries upside down', i dont know what is.
Read radical news here
Stockholders have an interest in Google's profits? It's not like the company pays a dividend or its share price is at all correlated with earnings...
Li Yizhong, the minister of Industry and Information Technology
Li Yizhong is just giving an opinion... not a policy. Obviously he is pissed that Google is still in China...which makes me wonder why he would want Google out of China. This whole hoopla has very little to do with censorship and everything to do with competition.
Human rights have nothing to do with it. Google was hacked. If people can't trust the contents of their GMail inbox to remain out of the hands of Chinese intelligence, and Google can't ensure that some Chinese entity isn't stealing proprietary code, Google's profits will suffer. Pulling out of China will make this less of a threat. It's a cost-benefit analysis, and that's how it would be presented to the shareholders.
"Don't Be Evil"
B-) Buahahahahahaha!!!!
Google's been selling search rankings since it began. It may not be pure evil, but as long as you can't tell truth from fiction, what's the difference. It's like buying stuff on Ebay and expecting that "Too Good to Be True" doesn't apply just because it's on the InterWeb.
-- Google: Manipulatin search rankings (for profit) since 1996. --
Hopefully, that means that china will no longer be able to search for email addresses efficiently to spam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
this one is a blast :
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/
a detailed list :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
Read radical news here
China has a terrible reputation as a global citizen. At times, they've flooded the market with shoddy goods made of questionable, even dangerous, materials. Their wholesale destruction of the environment is shocking, even to non-environmentalists. They manipulate their currency to make it impossible for importers to compete on an even basis. They have instigated what amounts to a low-level cyber war against businesses and governments the world over. They routinely muzzle speech and dissent within their own borders, and force those who do business with them to do the same. They reportedly have thousands of political prisoners, and every time they want to "make nice" with the West they trot out one or two of them and let them go home to show how kind-hearted they are.
Personally, I've had just about all I care to take of such noxious behavior. I may not be able to completely avoid "Made in China", but there's no reason to encourage them. There are plenty of other people to buy goods from.
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
i want to point out that during the majority of the cold war, u.s. generally was run by GOP dominance, either in white house or in the houses. so, this wonderful policy was basically their engineering.
Read radical news here
What about any patents Google may have in China? Does Google just walk away from their patents or defend them, without actually using the technology within China?
I wonder how the next Google stockholder's meeting will go if Google leaves, how can the Board answer the question of why the stockholders' interests (i.e. profits) were blatantly compromised for empty, useless proclamations of "human rights?"
That says more about the personal beliefs of the stock holders (who, let's not forget, are people and supposed to act like people) than about Google's commercial practices.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Wait? Why are we making exceptions?
All this stems from an incident several years back in which Li Yizhong was sent a link in a message online. When he clicked on it, and stared for a moment into the gaping void of a man's disproportionately stretched anus, he was forever changed... Determined to fight a never-ending battle against harmful information so that he would never again face that horror.
Bow-ties are cool.
http://www.break.com/index/russian-tsar-hydrogen-bomb-explosion.html
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
China is treating Google much the same way as Googles ‘YouTube’ over-censors their members. China 1, Google, 0.
Never miss the power of the mind to delude itself. From an average Chinese citizen's point of view, Google will definitely be the bad guy. After-all, we are western hypocrites. They censor the internet in NZ even. What right does Google have to interfere with our internal politics?
I think that's the type of thoughts that Google's pull-out will generate in China.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Does anyone know if slashdot is accessible in China? and if so are there certain articles that must be filtered
www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
China was an weak sleeping dragon awakened by US. In the beginning, it obeyed its masters order and master rewarded it for that. Now that it has gained its strength, it is about to strike and the master is worried but can't do anything. BTW, the master has awaken at least one more monster of jihadi muslims.
In short, China's industry can now survive and even grow without Google and it gives a damn if Google or any other company wants to leave China.
A free press protects the people from their government. Censorship protects the government from the free press. If the government of China really does have the best interests of it's people at heart then it would not have to use censorship to prevent it's failures from being brought to the attention of it's people. People don't need their government to protect them from porn or hate propaganda, people are amazingly good at doing this themselves. The government of China might as well say the moon is made of cheese, it would be just as true as claiming they need to protect their people from imaginary harm.
" Li insisted the government needs to censor Internet content to protect the rights of the country and its people."
Censor to protect rights?
Someone remind me why we're even dealing with these people? Oh yeah, wait. Lots of money. It's pretty amazing how some people fear "socialism" here in the U.S. but are perfectly willing to do business with communists.
"...the government needs to censor Internet content to protect the rights of the country and its people."
Uh huh.
Maybe I am missing something, but since when were the rights of any country and its people protected by censorship?
O.K., that is a bit rhetorical, I admit.
Well, God help us. Can't have any of that there "instability," eh? Gotta have it all nice and stable and nailed down. Yeah. That's what tyrannies thrive on.
Here's a clue, Li, baby. The people don't exist to serve the state in the manner which the state, in its infinite wisdom, decides. It's supposed to be the converse. A true, thriving society is not about "stability."
Could China's government be worse? Yes, it could be a lot worse, and it HAS BEEN a lot worse, in recent memory. But it's still an ugly denial of human dignity and liberty, and acceptance of that ugliness is a participation in an evil.
Actually, Google has been forced in many countries to censor search results. This has gone largely unnoticed. Only when $EVIL_GOVERNMENT==China do they rebel now? Wouldn't they be more credible if they refused censorship, no matter what... and threatened to move out of DMCA-land and head to a country where they could get away with it, if need be?
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
The founders of Google still have a controlling share of the voting stock, so it's not something they have to justify. If the other shareholders don't like it they can try a lawsuit, but those usually only succeed in cases of fraud or gross incompetence (if Google decided to spend all their cash on strippers, or if they bought AMD without actually checking to see how much debt AMD has, ie due diligence). In this case it's been pre-announced and clear what Google's been planning for a few months now, so any shareholders' lawsuit isn't likely to succeed.
Qxe4
China has a right to enforce its laws. You may not agree with the law, but China is a sovereign nation and has the right to make and enforce laws. An external corporation has to abide by them or pay the price.
it was an additional reply to one of your own replies. you probably read the first, and missed the other. here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
this one is a blast :
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/
a detailed list :
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html
Read radical news here
Has this person or anyone else from the Chinese government provided any demostration that information "harms stability or the people"?
I mean, hard evidence. With concrete examples, measurements and definitions of "stability" and "harm".
In the fullness of time, after suitable reflection, we thank you for your interest but must politely suggest that it would be best we part ways.
Translation:
Now that we've had time to verify we got everything we wanted from hacking you, we fell comfortable telling you to get lost and die.
Google can't realistically "win" in this situation. Your post suggests that Google keep doing what it's doing. Chinese law is not a public opinion poll, and as you mention that will result in someone going to jail. You don't break national laws and hope it works out for the best!
The intellectual and philosophical movement will either happen or not happen at this point, and doesn't depend on whether Google puts up a fight. That cat's out of the bag, and most of the people likely to revolt are already aware of what's happening. I'm suggesting the opposite - if Google caves and leaves or censors results, the people will have much more incentive to revolt. If Google fights, the people have less incentive to be involved personally, because Google (and any employees which pass near or it China) is taking the attack for them.
The obvious course is for Google to put up a banner that says "Search results have been filtered on request of the Chinese Government", if the law allows. Assuming that's not allowed, then Google must follow whatever the law says, and let the people decide for themselves what to do next. Leave or censor, doesn't matter. The government will probably claim that they didn't request filtering, and there was never any argument, and a good number of people sadly will believe that.
I think the US needs to tell Chinese companies the same thing when they are putting lead paint on toys or melamine in milk or whatever other things they are trying to pass off to the American public. While I respect the right of the Chinese to decide their own laws and policies, I am pretty frustrated with the US's lack of courage to take a stance against the kind of things that the Chinese are trying to get away with, including tainted products and intellectual property theft.
The problem is that Freenet is tough to use, I would argue it's tough even for geeks like us who read Slashdot.
The other issue is getting the app in the first place, and getting a list of peers that aren't blocked. And when you're risking life imprisonment, it's pretty damn important that you get peers that aren't controlled by the government.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
You assume, so what does that make you?
China is not all that huge. Sure it has a big population, but Google is an American company and it is making Chinese profits over there. Simply put, the "huge" profits in China are not as big when written down in the American accounting books. As MMO's have shown, 100.000 Chinese accounts does NOT mean 1.495.000 in income. The chinese do not pay the same amount as they do in the west. Google ad fees will not be the same in China as they are in the west. Of course, the cost of doing business may be somewhat cheaper as well but enough?
The few figures released so far show that the Chinese operations deliver an insignificant percentage of Google's earnings.
Business leaders seem to get stuck with dogma. China is a huge market therefor that must mean huge profits... how does this work? Africa is bigger, and India is roughly the same size. Nobody falls over themselves to cater to these markets?
Where are these huge profits when you get down to examing the books? They seem to exist only in the heads of MBA's. And all the time you are loosing goodwill and credibility.
Google's "don't be evil" motto used to be admired, now it is ridiculed as it clearly has no meaning. How much is THAT in dollar value?
Imagine the add campaign Google could have fought with Chrome/Android and its search engine if it was the only one NOT to bow down to China.
Chrome: The browser that is NOT approved by communists.
Google: The search engine the state can not filter.
Android: The OS that is not evil.
Silly? That is however exactly what the Apple ad tried to do with its 1984 rip-off, and most US companies LOVE to wave the flag, as long as it doesn't upset the Chinese.
Leave the MBA rhetoric at home, and stop thinking that every huge market is worth getting into. Start counting the beans.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
If a spokesperson for my government said "of course we have to censor the Internet for stability reasons" my ears would perk up and I'd have to ask "exactly what are you censoring from me?"
Rewriting history like China's massacre at Tiananmen Square is truly evil. The only saving grace is that China's dependance on technology is only going to make it harder to control information.
The only American company China cares about is WalMart. As long as all the crap WalMart sells is manufactured in China, the Chinese are happy. If WalMart promoted all manufacturing by their suppliers to move elsewhere (like they promoted it to move to China in the first place), then it would severely damage the Chinese economy. China is a manufacturing economy, that is what they will protect. They give lip service to the information economy, but really can't abide by what it implies.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/16/1311236/Google-Patents-Country-Specific-Content-Blocking?art_pos=10
Doesn't this basically mean if Google shuts down the censorship, that bing etc can't just move in without a major patent war first?
of its principles. The Chinese are not going to compromise. They never do.
If the folks at Google were as good as their word they would tell the Chinese to "fry ice" and cease operations in China. Of course no corporation in this modern world will stick to its principles. Corporate principles and ideals are only for show to deceive the public. Profit is all that matters.
So I guess Google is EVIL after all.
chest puffing tenant with some wannabe gangsta attitude...
guess the landlord decided to mete out some reality checks.
Searching "compromise" on Google returns:
"Did you mean: completely acquiesce"
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
I'm so surprised! A sovereign nation with an authoritarian government insists that foreign companies abide by its laws! Who woulda thunk...
As a foreigner, you cannot compete in China against a Chinese competitor.
Sounds pretty straight up to me. Big market, sure, but foreign competitors will always be at a disadvantage.
Tweet, tweet.
Nobody is going to predict the future here so what happen's is only in the minds of brink et al.
But, speaking for myself and having been born in a European country that lived under dictatorship for 40 years, I think that Google should quit China. Of course it's a big market, but Google will not loose credibility. If M$$$ jumps in then they can have all the publicity they want and more. I've used Gmail for years and I am very satisfied with it. Hotmail on the other hand...
Most of all, Chinese dictator/burocrat leaders crave western approval. It's the only way they can do business internationally. Like it or not, their technology is highly dependant on western creativity.
They will make this an arm wrestle contest, because, in their simpleton minds (let's remember the qualifications of who rules that 1+ billion people nation) it's the only option they got if they want to be respected internally and externally.
In the long term, however reputation + independence from governments + prestige gained from this episode by the rest of world will benefit Google a lot more.
One more thing: China is only communist on paper and other symbols. They are - fundamentally - the most extreme capitalist nation in the world.
'If you want to do something that disobeys Chinese law and regulations, you are unfriendly, you are irresponsible and you will have to pay the consequences,' Li Yizhong
Actually, it means you disobeyed a law. Pretty sure that's it.
"but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
Oooh....ooh...ooh...maybe if Korporate Amerika offshores their last ten jobs to China, they'll become democratic? Ooh...ooh...ooh...And maybe the Ameritard will never learn....
Private Insurance Exchanges (designed in Enron in 1999) -- On the Internet, no one knows you're a supercomputer.
Man have you ever been brainwashed by the masses. Contrary to popular American belief, the US embargo pretty much does nothing to Cuba, because no other country in the world respects it. Cuba has cell phones and Internet, among pretty much anything else you can dream up.
Oh, and better health care to boot.
I just don't know where Google has broken Chinese law. Is it against the law to leave the country?
Oh yeah, right....
Fuck China.
And Fuck America.
These two governments are equally corrupt. I hope Google has the balls to stand up against the US government as well.
Well I can't deliver one. Like most people here, I hope they make good on their threats and pull out of China. It would weaken everyone playing in the Chinese market including China if they did. The saying would be "Google had the balls to stand up to China, why not you?" China, of course, will be seen as demonstrating their unmovable position on various issues such as their censorship, their human rights and other policies and will continue and even make worse their reputation for being corrupt and unreasonable.
I want really badly for Google to do "the right thing" (tm) in this, but I rather expect there to be some sort of "compromise" to be announced where both parties somehow save face... it's the Chinese way, after all, but it won't wash very well with Westerners.
Since Google is publicly traded, any philosophical thoughts about censorship or anything else are irrelevant. Their obligation is to the $tock holders now, not any moral high ground. Any noble stance they had years ago is now nothing other than a marketing tool also focused on their only purpose: money.
China needs censorship, because if they don't they're going to be in a civil war in 10 years. The government isn't open to new ideas and internet is just the means to spread those. New ideas (including philosophical, social and political) makes your country grow. Oppression just makes it shrink. China is growing now, but there comes a points they need to accept that the people can have ideas how things can be done differently. When critical mass is reached for ideas the government doesn't want, you can get three things: 1) the country becomes more oppressive, and is unable to develop further (for an example see North Korea); 2) civil war (Congo); 3) the government bends to the will of the people and things change (this is the part which comes sooner or later and is best for the cuuntry) (Russia). Economy is fueled by ideas at the core, restrict the flow of ideas and your restrict your economy.
Completely pull out of China. Close all doors. Develope business elsewhere - regardless of "future profit". End of story. Matter of fact, kill China in DNS altogether and isolate them. They want to develop for "their internet", well, fine and dandy. Let them have their own internet - INSIDE their country. Let'em stew with that for five years and then re-think the terms in which to do international business and conduct international trade and communications. This is no longer the dark ages, my "Workers for China" mates. Too bad that most of the powerful governments can't stop the "play softly" approach because they're afraid of loosing business or profits. The reality of the situation is that if the Chinese government is NOT slapped back down to humble status, they're going to continue to abuse not only human rights overall, and violate the rights of individuals and groups within China, they're going to continue on this silly child's game of "forcing" their will and ways upon the rest of the world. And I'm sorry on that one - I don't like to be "forced" to do anything, let alone have some silly childish government (or really, wanna-be-government) enforce their policies on me, my mind or my spirit. All the big dogs - Google, Microsoft, yadda yadda yadda - should learn that profits WILL come, and markets WILL be nurtured - don't play into these types of games by threat - or whatever. Time is the answer.
YankDownUnder Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire
And that is another mess altogether.
As we all know, a majority of the hacks/spam out there arrive to us via .CN, .CN on another planet... .CN may be a large market, but who wants to fish in a pond full of inedible fish?
I'm sure someone in the US would fund Google to write some code to put
As long as it's customizable (in how it communicates, not just what color the GUI is), why would you need more than one?
Get Google out of China and push them into North Korea, please! I want to see:
Google
Search: calc 39
Results - 1-20 of about 1
Google Calculator (learn more):
1. The Golf score of Kim Jong-il's first game of golf (11 holes in one!)
Just do the not-evil thing, and leave. Where's the problem here?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Which has the little problem of bad (e.g. government spy) peers. Enough of those and your anonymity = bye bye. In a darknet you only add people you trust.
1st of april is coming up. They could rickroll China, only the video should be replaced with tank-man, same song ^^
Does the New Zealand government not realize that their insistence on censorship simply
highlights the inherent weakness in their government and system of government?
Insert western democracy of your choice - all governments censor - ALL of them.