Slashdot had serious kernel level problems when it's hits started increasing. AFAIK CT had to do a recompile to fix it. Noone is going to bet a serious business on that.
This is not "true." Slashdot falling over, blowing up, and becoming unresponsive is NOT Linux's fault. This is a webmaster's problem; this was Rob's problem. Proven by the hundreds or thousands of Linux machines that dutifully serve millions of hits per day, computer services offered are only as good as the system manager behind them. Rob is not perfect, Slashdot goes away some times; this is user error and can happen to any site on any network using any operating system.
Linux and current hardware of the Intel IA32 or Alpha or Sparc generations have no problems saturating a 10 Mb connection for an entire day, week, or year. Of course, as you add in server side dynamic content, memory bandwidth and CPU requirements jump. It's the server manager's responsibility to make sure the hardware can meet the demands; if you need more CPU because you wrote scripts that require it, either tune your scripts or buy a faster CPU. Cluster your machines, do some DNS tricks, and farm out your web jobs. Perhaps invest in an SMP Alpha machine with plenty of I/O bandwidth an RAM. These are all server manager duties, and because so far the operating system has posed no problems, there is no call to "blame" the operating system for any of it.
I would love to debate your argument on purely technical terms, instead of hypothetical duties and theoretical loads, but you don't seem to present any technical arguments against Linux. In fact, I would classify all your current arguments as FUD, plain Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
Sorry, I love Linux (and/.) but I wouldn't bet a million hits/day (average) web business on it. Imagine if Slashdot were an e-commerce site and had lost sales when it had it's "Problem week" a few weeks back.
There's your standard FUD. "Oh no, there was a HUMAN ERROR in the past, what would happen if we extrapolated that to some fantasy future scenario and blamed it on the COMPUTER? Things would be mighty scary, indeed! Run from Linux, it is all things evil!" I'll tell you what would happen if Linux was serving an e-commerce site. Since this company has a brain or two, they have a backup web server, mirrored RAID systems, and do nightly backups. The main box goes down, the system administrators' beepers go off, they run into work, and see that the backup has automatically taken over web services for IP www.xxx.yyy.zzz. They get the original web server back on its feet, do some internal testing, sync the disk contents, and turn it back on. They go back home.
Say the company wasn't so smart, didn't have secondary machines, and had to deal with not meeting performance. The system administrators, knowing the server scripts and hardware, would then look for things to optimize. Perhaps the machine needs more RAM, so it gets it, and they go home.
If the machine isn't running in an hour, and the company loses a million dollars, then the system administrators are told they are now free to find other jobs.
Tell me where, in those situations or others you may know, where Linux was a limiting factor here (I can only touch these hypotheticals because I have never seen Linux fail to serve content becuase it was suffering from any operating system problems). Mr. Sergeant don't include a single example of where a server didn't meet its expected load; I can only assume he's being compensated for his words by some third party. I would love to find out where he works, and what he's done with his life, but last I checked, his posted web address simply fetched a nicely printed Microsoft ODBC database connection error.
I almost forgot to include your "inodes and shit" argument. Since no one here knows what you meant by that, and don't appear ready to explain, I can only guess that you are talking about maximum volume sizes of ext2 partitions on 32-bit machines. These are 32-bit architecture limitations, and here's a tip: get better hardware; buy an Alpha. Perhaps you want smaller inode _block_ sizes? Perhaps larger? Use a different filesystem, or at least give me a single, detailed, technical argument in favor of your sanity.
Figuring Mr. Sergeant knew much of what he spoke (however else would he dare to say that Linux isn't up to the task of serving content), I connected immediately to his posted web address, and this was the only response I received from his machine:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'
[Microsoft][ODBC Driver Manager] The server appears to be not available.
On March 3rd, 1999, a company web server, a Pentium II Linux machine, besides serving SMB shares, handling company e-mail, and supporting a dozen or so interactive shells spawning intermittant compile jobs, happened to respond to 221,409 web hits in one 24 hour period. They were all pictures. The load average for any 15 minute period never wandered above 0.02. Stability and speed are not problems.
This is not fiction, nor is it unusual. In fact, we've probably had busier days. The only reason the box didn't serve 3 million hits when we weren't looking was that our T1 connection was completely saturated the entire time. I can honestly say not a single minute that day did I, for some very odd reason, wish AIX had anything to do with _my_ workday.
I have the feeling you don't have a damn clue what an "inode" is, much less how to run a web site. Please, tell me how "inodes and shit" don't scale? Could you enlighten me as to how network traffic (hits per unit time) somehow directly relate to a filesystem's inability to, well, I think you meant scale?
Now *THAT* is the competition that Microsoft brings to this market.
How many years have you worked at Microsoft?
Please add a Ziff-Davis Category
on
Slashdot Updates
·
· Score: 1
Please add a category that will, above all others, classify content from any magazine, newsletter, online service, or death-bed whisper of any quote of publication or statement of employee having any responsibility to anyone living or dead, real or mythical, who may work for Ziff-Davis at any level. I want to block it all out; and if I could, Slashdot might start to look less like Twinkie dairy-style filler and more like ribeye.
And it's 32-bit--how surprising. Anyone reminded of how Microsoft sold 16-bit DOS to run on 32-bit Pentiums, and marketed it as the greatest new technology one could purchase? Hahahaha.
As far as I can tell, and I've looked pretty hard, the name "Cygnus" has nothing to with GNU, the FSF, or free software at all--it happens to share the same three letters, I think by chance. Cygnus just _happens_ to license some of its software under GNU GPL or other free software licenses. It's a practice they find keeps them competitive and strong, so they play with it.
The name Cygnus is taken from the constellation Cygnus, the swan, and it's a nice name. In fact, the constellation graphic is right there on the front page. Their web site could use a makeover, as I don't find it very pretty, but it's functional enough. The name is established and unique, at least in my frame of reference, but a fresh clean makeover could really make the marketability difference.
I read this article years ago, but I never noticed this until just now. That's not an IBM modem at all; it's a Hayes Accura, and it looks just like the one sitting here on my floor.
Check out The Onion's news archives for technology. It's a good few hours worth of constant laughing.
I second this motion! In fact, I think they should be "h4xX0r4t3d" by default. If you can't figure out your web browser, you're good for at least a little public humiliation.
Boy, talk about a loss for clues. If you'd done a hint of research you'd know exactly how much money Debian rakes in each year, and in how many states they are a money-making, incorporated entity. Oh, yeah, that's right--the answers are 0 and 0. They're a non-profit organization, Einstein. Next time you feel the urge to vent your misfortunes on someone happy with what he does, choose your straw men more carefully.
And about purchasing a clue? I have a paycheck coming tomorrow, actually, and do you know what I'll do come monday? Yeah, I'll go into work and write software; GPLed software, but of course that probably hurts you knowing that's what people do. So when you're ringing up another extra value meal, or making it back to class before the lunch bell rings, remember how much clue my paychecks afford, and that someday you might be able to put a down payment on your very own.
Look around you. Look around again. Work in a company for a while. Understand how a business works. Look around you again. Tell me how many people are making money off open source software.
I write free, GPLed software. I get paychecks. Next argument?
Open source only works if you can make money off of something else than the actual application itself, e.g. by making it so damn hard to use that you can sell people support, or by making it so damn big that most people prefer buying a CD instead of downloading it.
Ok, you tell me then why Red Hat is making so much money selling boxed sets of their products to a crowd largely not dependent on either printed manuals or technical support. Tell me how Red Hat Linux is available in more places in this city than Microsoft Windows. I'd love to hear your reasons for that, considering you pretty much lost your own argument with the tip to convenience.
A small, easy to use application will never be a commercial success when GPLd.
So, how many commercial, free applications have you written? You'll have a lovely time proving anything can NOT happen unless you're fit to watch it forever. I'd love to see you try, though.
And I find it quite amusing how bold and wise you think you are, hiding behind anonymity. Perhaps when you figure out how to use a web browser (registering a user name is really a simple procedure even you could probably handle), then you might understand things like writing software.
Yeah, I did once have DOS installed on one of my computers. It was a 120 MHz Pentium, and I still have that copy of Novell DOS 7, but Quake 2 wasn't out back then.
No, I've never paid a single cent for a Microsoft product in my life. I've never bought a whole computer. I've never owned Microsoft DOS, I've never licensed Microsoft Windows, nor any of their office or development software. I don't own any Microsoft hardware.
I don't see what's wrong with you, here. I have Linux on this machine, and I have Quake and Quake 2 installed.
I'm not sure what you're saying. I have Quake 2 installed on this computer, and I even play it sometimes, and I've never bought a Microsoft product in my life.
Read the GNU Manifesto. Read it again. Read the GPL; understand it. Re-read the GNU Manifesto a third time. Get in into your head that commercial software can be GPLed. Get it into your head that a company can make money off fully free, fully open products. Get some real information into your head.
Well, I guess I didn't understand what you meant. However, it does not require "XFree86 3.3.3.1". You are free to use any X11 implementation you want, and if it works with GTK, AbiWord will also work with it. AbiWord's Unix builds also require an operating system kernel, an ANCI C library, and some sort of shell to start the process, but I've never heard of anyone including the sizes of these in their analysis of an application's memory usage.
You can not run X11 on older machines with 32M ram
You absolutely can. I've run AbiWord, as of last week, on a 16 MB 486/66 running Linux 2.0 and XFree86 3.3.2. In fact, my sister wrote a school paper on that very machine that night, saved it to disk, FTP'ed it from her Windows machine (which had a color printer), loaded it in the Windows version of AbiWord and printed it.
and about font support, no anti-alias in X11?
Yes, the X protocol only allows for bitmapped (1-bit depth) images of rendered font glyphs. If you want to start a project to change the X protocol and implement these changes in all existing X applications, please feel free to do so. I'll try to give my help where possible, if requested. There are other (client-side) methods of rendering fonts, but they're all slow, especially on remotely displayed windows via X. I've tried it, and even without anti-aliasing (but pure client-side font rendering), it's still very slow.
I never suggest to dismember GTK port!?
Then how does "the dependency on GTK is what needs work.." apply? Should we just depend on it in different ways?:)
AbiWord is really nice because it does not use the insecure and bloated.doc format.
No, it uses its own XML file format, but as of yesterday's tarball (0.5.1) it does import some Word 97 (Word version 8) files.
There is no library for printing on newer inkjet printers and non-postscript, e.g. Epson Stylus Color 600
It prints out PostScript, which you can feed through GhostScript with the proper driver for your printer. We have a Color Stylus 800 at work, and I print to it using AbiWord often, it's just a matter of setting up your print filters. If you have a PostScript printer, just send the output there.
no decent font support in X11
I'm not sure what you mean by that. What features is it missing? We have yet to get around to visual kerning pairs, advanced leading and character transformations. Those are scheduled. Beyond that, we just use Type1 fonts, and if you have your own files and metrics, you can easily add them to the fonts.dir files we read. A visual, programmatic method of doing this will follow.
huge binaries which require at least 64M RAM
I think you're greatly mistaken there, sir. This is a debug version, as of today's CVS tree, with all asserts and debug features enabled (the largest it will ever be now):
sterwill 30401 14.7 3.2 6248 4168 p7 S 11:08 0:01./AbiWord
That is just 4 MB of real, non-shared, non-cached RAM it is using. I'm also using debug and non-optimized builds of GTK and GLIB for debugging purposes. I believe you were about 60 MB off.
the dependency on GTK is what needs work
Then use the Windows port. Or the BeOS port. Or the MacOS port. Or write a Qt port. We don't plan on dismembering the GTK port; it's come a long way and people are happy with it, and you're always free to submit code.
Since I first installed Slackware, it's always sent mail to root imediately after completion of installation. What was the message? Please head to the Linux counter and add this machine.
I never got to the article (for obvious reasons), but I wonder if the author left out the part about where NT's kernel realizes it has to do more than one thing at a time and decides to shut down all network resources, schedule all processes at real-time, flip the execution pointers to point to random instructions, and then start thrashing wildly as it completely falls over and fails to serve ANY CONTENT WHATSOEVER!
I don't mean to keep plugging this, but the humans at SlashDot haven't, and there seem to be tons of people wanting more pictures. Check out Abi's photo page for lots of pictures from the entire event, including first day exhibits, the SlashDot party, the post-keynote party, and more.
Slashdot Mirror
Linux and current hardware of the Intel IA32 or Alpha or Sparc generations have no problems saturating a 10 Mb connection for an entire day, week, or year. Of course, as you add in server side dynamic content, memory bandwidth and CPU requirements jump. It's the server manager's responsibility to make sure the hardware can meet the demands; if you need more CPU because you wrote scripts that require it, either tune your scripts or buy a faster CPU. Cluster your machines, do some DNS tricks, and farm out your web jobs. Perhaps invest in an SMP Alpha machine with plenty of I/O bandwidth an RAM. These are all server manager duties, and because so far the operating system has posed no problems, there is no call to "blame" the operating system for any of it.
I would love to debate your argument on purely technical terms, instead of hypothetical duties and theoretical loads, but you don't seem to present any technical arguments against Linux. In fact, I would classify all your current arguments as FUD, plain Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
There's your standard FUD. "Oh no, there was a HUMAN ERROR in the past, what would happen if we extrapolated that to some fantasy future scenario and blamed it on the COMPUTER? Things would be mighty scary, indeed! Run from Linux, it is all things evil!" I'll tell you what would happen if Linux was serving an e-commerce site. Since this company has a brain or two, they have a backup web server, mirrored RAID systems, and do nightly backups. The main box goes down, the system administrators' beepers go off, they run into work, and see that the backup has automatically taken over web services for IP www.xxx.yyy.zzz. They get the original web server back on its feet, do some internal testing, sync the disk contents, and turn it back on. They go back home.Say the company wasn't so smart, didn't have secondary machines, and had to deal with not meeting performance. The system administrators, knowing the server scripts and hardware, would then look for things to optimize. Perhaps the machine needs more RAM, so it gets it, and they go home.
If the machine isn't running in an hour, and the company loses a million dollars, then the system administrators are told they are now free to find other jobs.
Tell me where, in those situations or others you may know, where Linux was a limiting factor here (I can only touch these hypotheticals because I have never seen Linux fail to serve content becuase it was suffering from any operating system problems). Mr. Sergeant don't include a single example of where a server didn't meet its expected load; I can only assume he's being compensated for his words by some third party. I would love to find out where he works, and what he's done with his life, but last I checked, his posted web address simply fetched a nicely printed Microsoft ODBC database connection error.
I almost forgot to include your "inodes and shit" argument. Since no one here knows what you meant by that, and don't appear ready to explain, I can only guess that you are talking about maximum volume sizes of ext2 partitions on 32-bit machines. These are 32-bit architecture limitations, and here's a tip: get better hardware; buy an Alpha. Perhaps you want smaller inode _block_ sizes? Perhaps larger? Use a different filesystem, or at least give me a single, detailed, technical argument in favor of your sanity.
Figuring Mr. Sergeant knew much of what he spoke (however else would he dare to say that Linux isn't up to the task of serving content), I connected immediately to his posted web address, and this was the only response I received from his machine:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'
[Microsoft][ODBC Driver Manager] The server appears to be not available.
/v3.asp, line 55
On March 3rd, 1999, a company web server, a Pentium II Linux machine, besides serving SMB shares, handling company e-mail, and supporting a dozen or so interactive shells spawning intermittant compile jobs, happened to respond to 221,409 web hits in one 24 hour period. They were all pictures. The load average for any 15 minute period never wandered above 0.02. Stability and speed are not problems.
1:00am up 87 days, 15:11, 10 users, load average: 0.02, 0.02, 0.00
This is not fiction, nor is it unusual. In fact, we've probably had busier days. The only reason the box didn't serve 3 million hits when we weren't looking was that our T1 connection was completely saturated the entire time. I can honestly say not a single minute that day did I, for some very odd reason, wish AIX had anything to do with _my_ workday.
I have the feeling you don't have a damn clue what an "inode" is, much less how to run a web site. Please, tell me how "inodes and shit" don't scale? Could you enlighten me as to how network traffic (hits per unit time) somehow directly relate to a filesystem's inability to, well, I think you meant scale?
Please add a category that will, above all others, classify content from any magazine, newsletter, online service, or death-bed whisper of any quote of publication or statement of employee having any responsibility to anyone living or dead, real or mythical, who may work for Ziff-Davis at any level. I want to block it all out; and if I could, Slashdot might start to look less like Twinkie dairy-style filler and more like ribeye.
And it's 32-bit--how surprising. Anyone reminded of how Microsoft sold 16-bit DOS to run on 32-bit Pentiums, and marketed it as the greatest new technology one could purchase? Hahahaha.
As far as I can tell, and I've looked pretty hard, the name "Cygnus" has nothing to with GNU, the FSF, or free software at all--it happens to share the same three letters, I think by chance. Cygnus just _happens_ to license some of its software under GNU GPL or other free software licenses. It's a practice they find keeps them competitive and strong, so they play with it.
The name Cygnus is taken from the constellation Cygnus, the swan, and it's a nice name. In fact, the constellation graphic is right there on the front page. Their web site could use a makeover, as I don't find it very pretty, but it's functional enough. The name is established and unique, at least in my frame of reference, but a fresh clean makeover could really make the marketability difference.
Perhaps Guido the Aardmoose?
I read this article years ago, but I never noticed this until just now. That's not an IBM modem at all; it's a Hayes Accura, and it looks just like the one sitting here on my floor.
Check out The Onion's news archives for technology. It's a good few hours worth of constant laughing.
I second this motion! In fact, I think they should be "h4xX0r4t3d" by default. If you can't figure out your web browser, you're good for at least a little public humiliation.
Boy, talk about a loss for clues. If you'd done a hint of research you'd know exactly how much money Debian rakes in each year, and in how many states they are a money-making, incorporated entity. Oh, yeah, that's right--the answers are 0 and 0. They're a non-profit organization, Einstein. Next time you feel the urge to vent your misfortunes on someone happy with what he does, choose your straw men more carefully.
And about purchasing a clue? I have a paycheck coming tomorrow, actually, and do you know what I'll do come monday? Yeah, I'll go into work and write software; GPLed software, but of course that probably hurts you knowing that's what people do. So when you're ringing up another extra value meal, or making it back to class before the lunch bell rings, remember how much clue my paychecks afford, and that someday you might be able to put a down payment on your very own.
And I find it quite amusing how bold and wise you think you are, hiding behind anonymity. Perhaps when you figure out how to use a web browser (registering a user name is really a simple procedure even you could probably handle), then you might understand things like writing software.
Yeah, I did once have DOS installed on one of my computers. It was a 120 MHz Pentium, and I still have that copy of Novell DOS 7, but Quake 2 wasn't out back then.
No, I've never paid a single cent for a Microsoft product in my life. I've never bought a whole computer. I've never owned Microsoft DOS, I've never licensed Microsoft Windows, nor any of their office or development software. I don't own any Microsoft hardware.
I don't see what's wrong with you, here. I have Linux on this machine, and I have Quake and Quake 2 installed.
I'm not sure what you're saying. I have Quake 2 installed on this computer, and I even play it sometimes, and I've never bought a Microsoft product in my life.
Read the GNU Manifesto. Read it again. Read the GPL; understand it. Re-read the GNU Manifesto a third time. Get in into your head that commercial software can be GPLed. Get it into your head that a company can make money off fully free, fully open products. Get some real information into your head.
sterwill 30401 14.7 3.2 6248 4168 p7 S 11:08 0:01 ./AbiWord
That is just 4 MB of real, non-shared, non-cached RAM it is using. I'm also using debug and non-optimized builds of GTK and GLIB for debugging purposes. I believe you were about 60 MB off.
Then use the Windows port. Or the BeOS port. Or the MacOS port. Or write a Qt port. We don't plan on dismembering the GTK port; it's come a long way and people are happy with it, and you're always free to submit code.Since I first installed Slackware, it's always sent mail to root imediately after completion of installation. What was the message? Please head to the Linux counter and add this machine.
I never got to the article (for obvious reasons), but I wonder if the author left out the part about where NT's kernel realizes it has to do more than one thing at a time and decides to shut down all network resources, schedule all processes at real-time, flip the execution pointers to point to random instructions, and then start thrashing wildly as it completely falls over and fails to serve ANY CONTENT WHATSOEVER!
We've had our T1 completely saturated most of the entire day, so things are a bit slow both ways.
Richard can walk, and he often does. Having a booth in the corner is no impediment to his larger goals, I would think.
I don't mean to keep plugging this, but the humans at SlashDot haven't, and there seem to be tons of people wanting more pictures. Check out Abi's photo page for lots of pictures from the entire event, including first day exhibits, the SlashDot party, the post-keynote party, and more.