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Dell start selling PC's with Linux
Well, starting this morning, DELL are starting to sell Linux pre-installed on selected workstations,
dell asks for additional 99$ for the installation. Full report from News.com is here. Speaking of pre-installing,
IBM just told Info-world reporters that they will keep selling Linux servers, but they
will "wait-and-see" about selling Workstation pre-installed with Linux. Am I the only one who
thinks that IBM need to learn about selling from Dell?
i co-worker just called about getting a Dell box with linux on it. the deal is that they actually send them somewhere else to have he linux installed.....doesn't make sense to me, but that is what they said..
Look at NEC..
18 months ago they pulled ALL of their retail in Canada... sales went directly into the toilet.. Resellers started badmouthing them (with good cause, IMHO) and consumers (who actually LIKE going out and kicking tires) were all too happy to listen..
Now they're trying to switch back, but there isn't a dealer in hell that will sell their product - it's pretty tough to convince people that you're a wonderful comany after you've stabbed them in the back..
IBM would have the same problem - direct is a good way to market if you do it from day one, but switching mid-stream does nothing but get people pissed off at you.
redhat seems to be getting all the deals
i wonder how about the others.
$99? So does this mean M$ is PAYING Dell $99/per copy of Win98 that ships? Is free to expensive for Linux?
My advice... what I did with my Dell at work... spend the money on Partition Magic 4. I have 98, NT and RH5.2 on there, no thanks to the idiots at Redhat or M$ with their screwed up install programs that freak out over large hard drives. I had to keep everything down below 8 meg during the install process, but PM4 let me shuffle and expand things afterwards. Fdisk can see the disk just fine, Disk Druid and Redhat? Not a chance. What utter crap.
Was it there? it's not there now
6:22 PM EST, Friday. Did they remove it?
Did Bill get pissed off and make an emergency
call to Michael ???
Anyone else notice their use of a Permedia graphics card???? Dare I say accelerated 3D support -- Metro X supports accelerated Permedia doesn't it?
Oooooh...Aaaaaaah...
Phenym
Yeah, it's the last one listed in the three of the four groups. It's not a "pick" item as Michael Dell had hinted. Why can't you get the cheap ones with Linux ?
Are you saying they include a commercial X server, accounting for the $99?
I don't know about AIX. Maybe IRIX, after patching all of the security holes. But that's just because SGI Origin2000s are huge machines.
Try XFree86 3.3.3.1 - it supports the Permedia 2
I compared the DELL PRECISION(TM) WORKSTATION 410 ...
400 MHz , 128MB , 9GB 7200RPM, P990 Monitor,
Harmon/Khardon speakers. I got
Linux : 3241
NT: 3013
Still, consider that Linux is free and NT costs
$100, that is a Linux Tax. One that I'll gladly pay, because it gives me freedom and reliability.
I don't know what you are talking about.
I installed RedHat 5.2 on a 10 gb IBM drive
and it works just fine. Fdisk works and will
set up the drives for you... I never figured out
Disk Druid and am not sure why it was even
created.
One note though: Be SURE your root partition
starts AND ends below cylinder 1024 (LBA mode)
or else you risk having lilo not work properly
(i.e. if your kernel image lies about the 1024th
cylinder).
I've just bought a Dell Poweredge 2300, with no OS for no extra cost. Borrowed RH CD from a colleague. It now runs RH5.2 fine. MS tax zero.
Disk Druid had no trouble partitioning my 2x18Gb drives into partitions of 2, 4, 14 and 18Gb
1 MegaHit per day isn't really that much considering some of the aging Solaris 2.5 installations that run sites of that kind. Linux should be more than up to the task.
99 bucks does seem a bit too much at this
point. Shit, they should be dropping it
down for the cost of the RH cds, if thats the
distro they are going on.
Actualy these $99 are in excess to
what you pay for Windows98 preinstaled.
Linux should be cheaper than Win.
It costs nothing and is easier to support -
plenty of info on the net, plus the source...
yeah, it's true. You need FreeBSD for million-hits-per-day web sites ;-)
yecch! i'd sooner run a Trio64
99 bucks for install? I thought these huge companies didn't actually manually install OS's - they just use machines that mass-copy the contents of a hard-disk with the OS installed. Thus it costs them the same installation fee for Win98, WinNT and Linux. (Except NT and 98 cost much more for the license, Linux costs nothing for the license, hence Linux should cost LESS)
Unless of course, as someone said, they're outsourcing the installing (why?). This is again, a crock. It takes me under half an hour to install Linux and I get to configure it as I please. I'm sure as hell not going to pay someone else 100 bucks (which is over 600 Rand in my country, a small fortune) just to install Linux the way they want it.
So is the 99 bucks for support? What a crock, you can't force everyone to pay support costs. What if I NEVER have to phone in for support? I still get taxed on other people who phone in for support? That's BS.
Just gimme an OS-less machine. I'll install Linux by myself, a half-hour, maybe an hour job, save myself what financially amounts to approx 20 hours worth of work at my salary (and my salary is a good bit higher than what people are generally paid to just install OS's on machines, as well as support desk people) and then skip this little 99 $ tax. The only support I want is on the dang hardware, since hardware has been known to fail.
So why does this 99$ cost exist at all? The conspiracy theorist in me says somehow MS may be involved in this.
I am glad that Dell is doing this..Also it is not $99. Please RTFA (A= article..or the post). Pcweek site says they will offer opti's in a few weeks.
This is really cool..at least now the average joe/jane will have a chance at Linux..and Linux will have a chance at the average Joe/Jane. This will mean more apps. I do not mind people makeing some money selling the apps..as long as it is not bloatware and will "REALLY WORK". Good job Dell..
Keep up the good work and improve on it..
Read the article and the post..where does it say it is $99. Linuxcare that Dell is offering is not free..Probably that is what cost that $20
Oh I forgot to mention, I was talking about the
Linux version of fdisk... it's far better than
the DOS version.
Although I'm happy that linux is FINALLY being pre-installed (not that I trust a pre-install mind you) which means that that many less MS machines that will be sold. The additional cost is probably a combination of the purchaser still paying the MS tax without actually getting the software and DELL taking advantage of the fact that Linux is such a hot item and some people, especially the computer-challenged ones, are willing to go that extra mile to get it.
Besides by having the customer still paying the Bill tax without getting the software package for it MS doesn't have to worry about having anyone knocking on their door for a rebate.
are you sure that $100 is a linux tax? It probably
is a penalty for not paying MS tax. Of course, you still have to pay the MS tax too.
thats whats next!
i hear the black helicopters now.
Think of it as a manufacturing fee - Linux is
outside of their normal manufacturing habits
since it will be just a small fraction of sales.
So it takes some extra time to get it installed,
even using pre-configured drives since it disrupts
the manufacture.
As Linux sales increase, this fee should decrease.
I'll take my $2 cheapbytes cd anyday. I don't understand how they can get off trying to charge $100. They obviously don't really want to support linux, otherwise they would just charge the cost of tech support. Dell is as close to wintel as it gets. Pffff!
I would advise you to keep in mind that a lower price doesn't always translate into less expensive. VA, LHS and Penguin offer things like toll-free ordering and support, warranties, guarantees, and they support the Linux community.
For example, www.debian.org is a VA machine and ftp.debian.org is an LHS machine. You're not likely to get any cheesy components from these folks, either.
the OEM version costs $50 a pop, but I'm sure
Dell doesn't pay that much. but it doesn't warrent the $20 extra (i went to the web page to see that).
How many licenses of windows does anyone legitimately own? I have several that are unused. If it were cheaper then windows option, people would stop buying ms installation, and MS would get no more money..
It's time for someone to start a license exchange
for win95/office95 and other products that weren't
upgrade and licenses are still valid (and unused).
(btw - first posting:)
I use Linux at work. I'm tired of having
to install it by hand all the time.
Having another company doing it that my CEO
knows and is happy with makes *my* life easy.
sure, there's VA Research, but my CEO hasn't
heard of them, so I wind up getting Windows 98
computers and having to blow them away. It's
time consuming, and it's not fun.
My CEO knows Dell, he feels he can trust Dell.
In return, I get a Linux box ready to go.
This is good.
Maybe it's not for you, but so be it.
I agree. Offering Linux is no more useful to me than offering Windows (less, actually, if a machine with Linux installed costs more!).
At least it's a step in the right direction.
They now believe Linux will be bigger, so the $249 price apparently is no longer necessary...
By comparison, this $99 is a lot less.
Go to the workstation area of their website.
Click on the 610 or 410 model. You'll see different machines to configure. Some will say "With Linux Installed" -- look at those.
You're right - Dell doesn't care about Linux, Dell doesn't care about hurting Microsoft. They're doing it for the money-- but that's the best reason of all. It's a _good_ reason, it's justifiable, and it can't be easily brushed off by Microsoft. They can't say "those are just small-scale fanatics", or "they just hate us", like they could about Penguin or VA, or Slashdot, or Larry Ellison, etc.
You might not have realized it, but ALL the Star Wars trailers were actually downloaded from Apple. Running Solaris.
I bet your life it will boot and work great...
For the record a week ago we ordered 2 2300 with Linux. All came all are working..U should know by now redhat does not have driver support for some of the 3com Nics. Dell sells 3com nics for lot of NT and Netware systems.
I did hear, they got more orders than they though they would get...They are ramping up..buddy..VA and Penguin, watch out..making money off us poor suckers is about to end..All VA and Penguin did was supply systems to a captive market and make money from us,,,while the real nerds who write the softawre are not getting anything
Hey,,,,give me a break...U were in the trenches..
..and treat us like adults..Ok...just do not kid us
U guys made money from us by selling high priced hardware...Who wrote the damn software for your bussiness..Rest of us..
Getting a little worried that the vacation might be over very soon..Look budy, you guys were in bussiness because you could make more money out of linux than M$ boxes..So just cut the crap and
let the people enjoy the best product..who ever that builds it.
Nerds,
so called Linux friendly vendors are making money from us...Why the hell are they selling Linux boxes only...because they can make more money than making M$ boxes...Who wrote the software for those linux friendly vendors boxes..??? you and me??? Did we get anything back ??? except donate our money to them...
These guys are taking all of us for a ride too!!!
And they are just a little bit worried since Dell got in to the picture..all that profit might go away...U guys made money from us by selling high priced hardware...Who wrote the damn software for your bussiness..Rest of us..
And to the vendors from nerds....
Getting a little worried that the vacation might be over very soon..Look buddy, you guys were in bussiness because you could make more money out of linux than M$ boxes..So just cut the crap and
let the people enjoy the best product..who ever that builds it.
I tried configuring several models with identical hardware between NT and Linux and came up with the following price differences:
Precision 610 Minitower - Linux is $20 more
Precision 410 Desktop - Linux is $20 more
Precision 410 Minitower - Linux is $918 more
Lets see, $918 - $20 = $898, looks like they left in the cost of a second 500Mhz Pentium III when they calculated the base price.
heh. get windows on your new box, erase it, install linux, and go to Microsoft for a refund, because you never used windows on that machine.
Isn't there a Mesa driver for the Permedia 2? I think I saw one on the Mesa site.
While I can see the entertainment value in that, wouldn't it be easier to just get a box with a blank hard drive?
First of all, how many avarage consumers want a Linux workstation.. Not Many... Dell needs to take direction from IBM.. Start off with the server shit and then when Gnome & KDE get their act together.. we can focus on the workstations..
.. then you will understand business and why Dell & IBM do the things they do..
As far as direct selling goes, just get it to the consumer.. i dont care how.. just get it there...
$99... you people must be poor as HELL!!!!!! when talking about a $1000+ workstation, you are trying to tell me $99 is too much.. lame excuse people.. just something else to wine about.. that is all you people do...
look at the big picture here... We want Linux to become mainstream, be stable and kick ass.. So why the fuck do you people critisize the people ( IBM, Dell ) that are helping Linux SUCCEED!!!
I little advise to some of you.. take an ecomonics course
They let you choose every component that goes into your system and they are so cheap they make dell look expensive. You get to choose any pc processor and they will sell it to you with or without an operating system and if you call them they will put linux on for you. Alough preinstalled is good I'd just say install it myself . Even better buy an iMac or G3, very fast and Mac OS X Server is one of the best Unixes.
A million hits (if a hit counts as each connection, not each visitor) a day isn't a lot of work, if it's static HTML. I've seen a 486dx4-100 running Linux handle it easily. Apache has no problem saturating the ethernet on any halfway decent machine.
Of course, if you have lots of CGIs, you have to be extremely careful about making them efficient. (Or, if programmer time is more expensive than hardware, just buy more/faster machines).
Not just $99. Dell's order forms make it very difficult to comparison shop, but it looks like the Linux systems offered give you less hardware for more money than comparable NT systems they offer.
Really doesn't look like Linux support at all.
Gigabyte motherboard...?
At the the University we work, we did a clock signal and EMI analysis on some PC motherboards..
There is a huge difference between Boards from Dell, IBM and Compaq...compared to A***, As**, Gig***** and all the other Taiwan vendors...
Look did any one ever wonder why pc just freeze!!!...It is because most of the time out of sync clocks and address and data signals..Some of the home brew pc do not even pass the FCC requirements for CLASS A!!! You guys might get some other health problem down the road
Watch for a few months you might become the clown
if Dell supplies a patch that works for winmodems...Also, where did it say only option was a winmodem..I did not see that!!!
BTW, winmodems are not all that bad...a winmodem take about 60Mhz from a processor to do the dsp stuf...So if I can keep upgrading my processor...It might be transparent to me what kind of modem is out in my box..
Elford,
Though people are griping about Dell charging for
linux The so called TCU-inc charges too!!!
Here from there web site Note how they say Linux or Linux in dual boot mode...So they chrage $50 for linux!!!
NOTES: Remember to add $50 for hardware and software setup and installation of Linux or Linux in dual-boot mode with
Window98/NT. If you want Windows98/NT by itself, we charge $75 for setup and installation.
Also, add $25 for S&H for monitors 17 inch for less and $25 for mid-tower cases or smaller. No tax if shipped outside of Ohio.
here is the web address
http://www.tcu-inc.com/hardware/Primary.html
I find it very hard to believe that Disk Druid had no trouble making 38Gb worth of partitions out of 2 18GB drives. 2+4+14+18 != 2*18.
I can't believe the NutBalls that scream, "Oooh, Look, VA's machine is $200 more than this box from CheeseBall Linux!"
People, doing real work involves paying for some peace of mind. Every day lost dicking around with crappy hardware costs my company thousands of dollars, so if a machine even sniffles, I give it back to the hardware guy and say, "Get rid of it!"
I could understand some anger if these boxes were REALLY overpriced, but an extra couple hundred bucks is nothing when you have a project due....
Because of the work VA does, I'll be able to buy an eight-way Xeon server by the end of the summer. VA is also releasing their code back to the community. Instead of waiting for Intel's Profusion chip set to be released and THEN waiting for Linux to support it, Profusion will have Linux support from the day it is released; THANKS TO THE WORK OF VA RESEARCH.
Linux on 8 way Xeons will absolutely SMOKE the same machine running NT. When the benchmarks come out, snot-noses like you will crow about how much COOLER Linux is.....
And if, by the way, you DO write code: If you're such a fucking Stallman-esque control freak, don't release your code under the GPL (yes DON'T), otherwise the "suits" may get hold of it!
Click on that red downward pointing arrow right next to the yellow highlighted message then you see this...
..you get a performance hit...I agree they should change the wording and remove that stupid "For Windows NT" thing from it...
Helpful Hints
Option selection impact alert - this icon signals that the selected option restricts or limits the selection of other configuration choices for this system.
(Note itsays.."IT DOES NOT"..I added that because people here start flaming without reading This is added by me)
It does not indicate that the current configuration is in conflict with the
warning message and cannot be ordered. Rather, its presence is meant to only indicate that a possible impact on your configuration choices exists. The system is not actively checking your configuration choices to see that they
are in agreement with the option's known restrictions.
Please use your browser's Back button to return to the previous page.
-----
Bottom line is there are trying to give some information...Hey give them few days to workout the kinks of the online configurator... I believe the possible impact they are talking is that IDE performance versues SCSI on CD -ROMS..and as the the system has a LVD SCSI controller if you mix LVD hard drives with a SCSI cdrom's
I have a bone to grind with some of the posters here..
..I believe they are one of the few vendors who will support
...but like an
While saying that VA and Linux-hw use quality components..
they flame Dell for not using quality components. Do you all have evidance for that.
I thought when you said that PC
Power and Cooling Power supply cost $xxx you were implying that Dell uses bad components.
In side my Dell, The power supply is made
by Dell and so is the motherboard
Let me tell you this for 8 years I have used Dell computers...I have two
at home..Never had any problems..All my friends who use
them never had problems..
Not only that Dell gives a three year warranty, first year onsite labour and parts free.
2nd and 3rd year they send you the parts. All this is free.
You are saying you you were in there from the begining..Dell has supported Unix long time ago
They ship systems with Solaris
and promote Linux simply because they do not have their own unix varient.
Let me ask you this, are your system certified by the FCC?
Do they pass the Class A certification for EMI? Do you write your own
BIOS for the boards that you sell..Will you support the boards that you sell
with part for seven more years..also provide BIOS updates?
Do you run your systems through reliabilty testing?..can you post that data?
All, I am saying is, you are not selling Linux boxes because you love..the nerds and
the Linux..If you did, you will sell Linux computers for $200. You are like, everyone
else including Dell, there to make some money. Nothing wrong with it
adult just admit it.
So let me ask you this, if Dell provides a cheaper better system and better reliabilty than
others, why should not I buy it from them..They have a proven track record great products..Donot they?.
Should not I believe them?
I am not going to come out of the AC (Thats my choice)...but since you came out of it..why do not you answer this for all the nerds that are waiting?????
BTW, Rob, if you want free discussions going on here, I challange you to keep this post instead of removing it
Otherwise this message board is no better than a company sponsered board
If VA did not do it Intel would have been forced to let it out,,,and guess what we would have had a better 8 way Xeon support...Now what we are getting is no less than what M$ and Intel used to do ..Difference it is now Intel and VA. BTW, Nec
..IBM taped it out..Read the news..I bet if the same information was released to us nerds we would have tweaked the kernel..So VA gets to do it and make a killing at the same time..So much for looking after Linux!!!!
bought the rights to the Profusion chipset and bought it to life faster than Intel..It will be shipping in April
Also, Compaq designed the I/O for that chip set
POst some thing to critizie VA and other so called "LINUX FRIENDLY" (May I puke..) vendors..and it dissapears..
Sad Sad..very sad indeed..
Oh, gee. Shame on Intel for supporting a commercial entity instead of some socialist hippy movement! Who's gonna "force" Intel to release Intellectual Property? Whining losers? HA!
You seem to think that if VA wasn't doing this, then some group like Debian would have jumped in. Sorry to burst your bubble, but because VA is commercial entity, they can do "unpure" things like sign NDA's. No more waiting a year or more for Linux to support an emerging standard!
Nobody who runs a business is gonna listen to that, "We could have done better, but we can't because we're too PURE" crap.
Linux support gets better because people with $$$ (like me) got involved.
All you purists can go mentally masturbate with the GNU Hurd. That should be as "politically correct" as you require...
If you're worried that commercial entities will destroy Linux by creating dependencies on proprietary code, I can respect that.
What I can't stand is the hair-shirted freaks who bitch when ANYBODY makes a red-cent off Linux! Hardware, bandwidth, and food for your family don't just magically appear when you GPL something. Move out of your parents' basement and you'll understand....
I had a hell of a time getting SCO Openserver 5.0.5 on a Bosses Dell Laptop. One big thing is that dell buys parts from different suppliers so two Insperions bought around the same can have different hardware.
As least that's what happened to me.
SCO does not have card services ether so I had to buy special third-party stuff to make an ethernet card work...and then only on tuesdays.
- Not really an AC, just broken post code in KFM.
It's a special Image that sometimes that is but on the hard drive even before it's assemble in the computer. I've done it on a small scale, and it's quite nifty. Linux need to boot and autodetect that way too before ISV will pick it up in mainstream.
RedHat, are you listening?????
> U should know by now redhat does not have driver
> support for some of the 3com Nics.
*I* should know? How about *THEY* should know before offering product for sale? I'm blown away by them not having ANY of "last month's" cards in reserve. You completely miss the point. They are the vendor... they are responsible for meeting ship dates that they promise. I made this deal in mid-January and they shipped it in mid-March. Makes me puke when I see one of their TV ads about "they built one just for me"... right.
I wish I'd have bought from www.swt.com or ASA Computers. Both offered better systems for less money than Dell. Dell's junk ain't cheap.
Did they ask me ANYTHING about how to partition the drives, what to install, etc.? NO! I expect the first thing I'll have to do is install the OS, which I planned on doing anyway. I paid the $249 to make sure it WOULD install on their hardware.
> They now believe Linux will be bigger, so the $249 price apparently is no longer necessary...
I don't think so. The $249 is for a SERVER. That's a box that normally comes without an OS.
The workstations already have the MS tax applied to them, I think.
I've never bought any of their workstations, so you might be right......
Sorry to burst your bubble too..Registering you for staroffice...Hmmm the user has to do that since the initial key last only 30 odd days..Last time I did it, that was the case.
Itemise...that is an another biggy..
Try this for a test, if you buy a Diamond Micronics C300 mother board from any vendor..it goes some where between 90 to 112. Now this is a LX board, 66Mhz FSB..You can run "celery" or the "II" upto 333..Beyond that is questionable...
But, then there is this other vendor..tccomputers who is selling the same board for $39..Thirty Nine..Let me tell you most board comming from Taiwan cost next to nothing..you get what you pay for too!..But the prices listed by the most vendors do not reflect what they pay or what they really cost..So itemising do not tell you anything..
Finally, if you go to worksataions page you will see you can buy the 610 and 410 with Linux "ONLY"
It is listed seperately..If you go to the servers..there are some that can be bought without an OS..so that thingy about windows licence..I belive in my little humble way that you are wrong
So there goes another bubble..By the way testing..hmm is it under load full burn in for three to four days..testing means so many differnt things..how and when it was tested..
Not being nasty..just pointing out some holes in the theory..
*Why* did a moderator drop your score? I don't know, but one guess is that it sounded somewhat
/...Infact positively love it..So any of my post does not mean any animosity to /.
belligerent. Had you not posted it as an AC, it would still have had a score of zero and would be visible by default.
------------------------
Hmmm I wonde why they were not this generous to other posters who were flaming Dell..Hmm Need a little bit of impartial analysis..
Anyway, thanks for getting those post up..if they just happen to vanish..I like
I believe Dell ships SCO on servers. Laptops is a huge question mark. I do not think they put anything other than windoze in them.
...a truly beautiful nerd world...Just kidding..well we can all dream right!!
Same goes for Compaq too. Even digital being a unix vendor on it own never had any laptops with any flavour of unix.
I think Sun had one some time back..or a third party vendor had one with a Sparc processor and a motherboard..But u know it cost a fortune..
Can not wait for vendors to support linux fully on all there products...Then it will be a beautiful world
Donovon
..they are harmonics ..I need not point ..You should know what I am talking about..I seen your web page..
Go back and read my post..I DID NOT say TCU uses cheap taiwan boards
Thats one, second is Class B is what..Tell us all What Class B is..
Third, the LX board I was talking about was to point a hole in your theory ie: simply because things are
itemised doesnot mean it is what the manufacture (The guy who makes the Box) paid for.
In case of shops that use other peoples motherboards, it is any ones guess...as no one shows the invoice price. I have nothing aginst that..People need to make a living..But your theory will not hold water..
Next one, FCC compliance is not in piece meal..whole box has to pass. Just beacuse the
BOX and motherboard passes seperately does not mean you can have a safe sytem for sure.
There are so many things that cause EMI in systems,
it to you
BTW, I made no comments on the Asus mother boards..Do not want to be sued for sure!!!
You forgot to say cheers...
I know that part of the HP software loading process is a simple test suite to ensure that most things work OK. The last I heard it was still using DOS (although it had been upgraded to DOS 7.1 for the FAT-32). This test program does not support NTFS and I doubt if it ever will support ext2fs. HP'd have to do a major rewrite to support all those file system types, and considering the red ink, I don't see that as being a popular option.
I have no idea how other PC makers do things, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a common problem.
- doug
yeah, alright I meant 2+4+12
The price of NT on a Precision workstation is $0. Check the web.
Looks like IBM is first going to provide offerings on the server side (Linux is fairly strong here). I don't think I could disagree with this approach except that if IBM ported their Lotus SmartSuite to Linux, well, that would be a very big win. A Notes client too.
Here's the IBM blip regarding server offerings:
"Toward the latter part of the second quarter, IBM will introduce support for Linux on its Netfinity 3000, 5000, and 5500 servers, as well as for its RS/6000 line of high-end servers, IBM officials specified Friday. IBM will also next month start offering Netfinity servers pre-configured with Linux."
www.varesearch.com
www.linux-hw.com
www.penguincomputing.com
I ordered a Dell PE 2300 with Redhat installed back in late January... under government contract. It shipped... today! After many, many, missed ship dates.
It was delayed for the last 10 days or so because all they had were the new 3Com 98xx (?) NICs and no Linux driver for them. How's that for being prepared?
The kicker to all of this is they charged us $249 for "system integration", ie, install Red Hat, and $37.92 for the software package.
I'm betting it won't even boot when it arrives.
I'll NEVER spend a penny of my personal money with them and if we buy more Linux boxen that I have influence over, I'm recommending going "off contract" to buy from a REAL Linux HW vendor... or get our buyers to negotiate a contract with VA Research or someone.
One mistake that's easy to make is to think that because one IBM employee says something, it's corporate policy. One of IBM's strengths as well as weaknesses is that different regions/departments/etc have their own ideas about market-positioning--just as OS/2 advocates. (And don't even _think_ you've seen a matrix organization until you've worked at IBM).
Just because some bloke in IBM EMEA says they're taking a "wait&see" about Linux doesn't say anything about IBM US or Japan, or...
--Uche
The price difference for the 410 desktop, identically configured, is $179 in favor of Linux, but the 410 Mini-tower, identically configured, is about $700 in favor of NT.
I think Dell forgot to count their expensive NT graphics adapter ($1000 more than the permedia) in the base price of the NT Minitower, so it miscalculates the NT Minitower $1000 too low.
How did Linux come to be?
Why not do the same thing with hardware?
How many people read slashdot daily? If everybody
that reads slashdot got together and formed a company, they could buy computer parts at wholesale. Do research on motherboards processors graphics cards, everything! Design a few very good computer models with LINUX pre-installed. Sell them at as little profit as possible. Support them. There must be Linux types all over the country.
Think about it. Who cares if Dell or anybody starts selling Linux PC's. Why wait on them. Compete with them.
Microsoft may or may not be worried about Linux. But it's here! It's growing.
Ignorance is the killer here folks. My brother was given qoutes on two computer systems. Windows NT and Linux. I said, "quite a difference in price wasn't there?". He said, "I had never heard of Linux, didn't even look at the quote".
Open hardware? Maybe! Don't whine, act!
someone posted it a while back i cant find it though
I'd really like to see the bugs in this deal banged out. Dell makes excellent computers for very affordable prices, and one with linux preinstalled (or even better, shipped as a dual-booter) would be ideal.
Here are the problems I see. First of all, the added cost. Some of this probably goes to linuxcare; after all, Dell probably can't provide reasonably priced tech support for linux because of the highly technical nature of most problems, and Dell's support is best prepared for "Where's the any key" type questions. But there's a decent chance Dell is REQUIRED to pay for the license of windows for each computer, whether it has windows or not. This would also explain the reluctance to provide refunds because of EULA disagreement. It would not surprise me if MS forced Dell into such a deal, long before linux became a real issue.
Second of all, is this a stock RH 5.2 install, or is it customized for each system? Are the programs compiled with pentium II optimizations? Are the packages the exact ones on a RH 5.2 cd, or have they been updated to the latest and greatest RPMs?
Third of all, linux inclusion is nice but I still wouldn't get a system with redhat. But when dell starts shipping systems with Debian GNU/Linux I'll beat a path to their door. SuSE and maybe even Caldera support would be nice, too.
Asterix
I think it might also to make up for precived support costs. while most people in linux most likely would not need support from Dell on it they will still need to train a staff and get people that will be able to support linux for them. $99 I dont think is that much for them to test the waters with. I think once they find that support costs on linux will be very low that cost will most likely dwindel or vanish completely
ArsonSmith
leader of the speling impared
I've seen many companies try to run large websites on NT (and worked with one God help me!). So, it would seem to me that somebody would be likely to take the same hardware and then try to accomplish the same thing using a good operating system :)
at least more than just because.
Yeah, I too would like to see IBM offer Linux workstations, but I can't say that I'd see that happening very soon. The simple reason is reason.
IBM has a 5 headed chicken or the egg problem, when you consider their products, their customers, their ISV's etc.
A server is an easy match for Linux because the total picture is much clearer. A server serves stuff, period. It doesn't matter what kind of stuff you have to serve, it is all data, and server programs-a-plenty from PPP to RBDMS's exist for Linux. The server customer picture can be simplified as well. Many of IBM's server customers are familliar with big iron types of OS's. Linux is at least similar in behavior to these, with a much lower price tag. This, as well as the minimal software development for themselves, is an easy sell for IBM.
Workstations on the other hand are much more diverse. Similar to many corporate LANS which may have a one hundred to one ratio of users to administrators (except for NT shops), the diversity of workstation based tasks to server based tasks is greatly loppsided. This is the crux of the Linux workstation problem. The programs which IBM rely on to sell their workstations, just are not available on Linux. I know that more and more are released all the time, but where are the established products that businesses make decissions around? You will never see Autodesk bring AutoCAD to Linux. Nor will you see Pro/Engineer, Alias WaveFront etc. etc. etc. on Linux. Because of this, you may never see IBM selling workstations with Linux pre-installed, because their customers (current ones who spend money on their products now) would not buy a Linux workstation from IBM.
I can see the fire now, but please don't misunderstand me. You can't beat the bang for the buck of free software, but without all types of commercial software, Linux will always be relegated to the status of "Niche Server OS".
I'm convinced that overtures by Oracle, Sybase, Informix, and Corel towards Linux were motivated more by Billy G's movements deeper into their own markets. I also think that it's working to benefit the community as a whole, because server vendors are now bundling Linux, where only NT existed before.
We need some sort of Industry lobbying group that would concentrate on developers of workstation based programs. This is a much more difficult and diverse task than getting a word processor or office suite ported, as many of these developers are in vertical markets themselves. It would be a huge risk, a leap of faith for, lets say Unigraphics, to port their products to Linux. Yes, they develop them for many UNIX flavors, but a program for an operating system with as many different distributions as Linux, with infinite hardware configurations, and no telling how many graphics configurations that they would have to deal with. On top of that, a Linux port would cause serious strain on their relationship with M$. Many of these companies have this problem, as we all know that final budgeting decissions made by their customers, are constantly made by PHB's that require the M$ stamp of approval, and have the misconception that all UNIX machines cost ~$70,000, and are incapable of doing anything usefull like playing solitaire (Oh, bad flashback to former PHB).
Actually no.
I am not sure what went wrong in your case, but
I tried the same.
To be more specific, the HD is 7200rpm, I included
the Harman speakers, had the Dell 21 inch monitor
the Performnce key board, the Logitech mousewheel
mouse, the rest is as you had it.
For Linux I get 3,661 dollars
For NT (subtract the 1 year service contract)
it's 3690.
So actually in this configuration Linux is about
30 dollars cheaper.
Of course, you could get the same stuff
for hundreds of dollars cheaper e.g. at Comtrade
(without an OS, though)
Somewhat unrelated, I recently noted that one
can buy laptops without Windows from Zenon
Technologies (www.zenontech.com)
No I don't work for either of them I just buy!
I agree. That is definitely the next FUD line.
1984 FUD: "No one will write any significant free software."
1989 FUD: "No one will write an entire complete free software system."
1994 FUD: "No one will use free software in their business."
1999 FUD: "No one will run their data center on free software."
What's next?
This is not a big deal folks. Dell probably is also installing Linux, not so much to help themselves, but to help M$. I mean, who was the largest apologist and defender of M$ at all the trial action and at the Senate hearings? Michael Dell, that's who. I looked for where I could purchase a system preinstalled with Linux and they've succesfully buried it, enough so that Bill probably doesn't give a shit that they are also offering it. He's sure to have his attorney's wave it around in court that there is ample "competition" to try and blunt any fallout from the trial. So, it's all bull really. If you've got to dig so deep to find it, then it's not really there as far as I'm concerned.
If I've got to call and request it from a sales rep. then it's not truly available. I visited the workstation area and Linux certainly was not available there in contrast to the earlier interview of Mr. Dell which claimed it would be there. There were only MS OSs listed there.
If IBM will have anything to learn from Dell, I hope it will be to actively promote Linux, as opposed to offering it with barriers standing in the way of a purchase.
I doubt many of you Linux kiddies remember, but Dell had its own UNIX division back in the early 90's. They did their own port of SVR4.2, and it was considered one of the best UNIX ports out there -- they turned thousands of lines of bug fixes back to AT&T. Alas, it proved unprofitable and was shut down.
problem fixed. check link now
Hetz (Heunique)
I can see a couple reasons for the current pricing.
slashdot broke my sig
I suppose it could mean that the $99 price is however much it costs for NT, plus $20.
But that doesn't make sense either, does it? The cost should either be the same as a Win98 install, or less. The price shouldn't be anywhere near the cost for NT (unless the extra charge for NT is zero..)
I don't know where you find 99 dollars extra.
The article mentions costing 20 bucks over the NT installation. This probably has to do with adding the LinuxCare support contract on top of the Microsoft pricing deal.
"No one runs large, million-hits-per-day Web sites on Linux," Occleshaw said, adding that IBM would still recommend its AIX Unix-based server to customers that wanted to run large, serious enterprise applications.
No one at all? I wonder who made this moron the authority.
their policy is not support any unit that has an altered "configuration".
That is, my tape drive fails to be detected under Win95, with confirming evidence that the parallel port is not detected for the printer by Linux, means: remove Linux take out the second hard drive (Linux only on this drive) then they would consider my problem. [I would have to even do more than that to return to my as shipped configuration - just not worth my time.]
In my case, they immediately lost another sale for a primarily Win95/98 machine because it too would have a Linux partition.
I might consider a Dell later, but I would install my own copy - even with all the problems that can entail. Just a thought.
I don't know what's up at the Dell site but I set up two identical systems in adjacent windows and the Linux box was $200 cheaper. Why are others getting it more expensive? Is ASP incapable of math?
---
"If history is correct, the key is to start with some old guy who learned how to win in Montreal."
Posted by PasswdIs ScoreOne:
Charging more for just Linux is rediculous, especially when you consider that all of the hard drives they stick into the machines are all cloned from a master drive image somewhere. Thus once you have the image, copies are no harder or easier to make than for Windows installed drives.
However, pre-installing Linux means that hardware has to work with Linux. This means no win-modems and the like and I would expect a higher cost here. But Dell said the extra $99 was for the Linux "installation" which means they're just ripping off the consumer.
Posted by mackgaAThome:
Well, Dell started out with Linux on servers - pretty much invisible on the web site ordering thingy. Now we actually got a listing on the OS options for two workstations. I figure this is pretty good. Fsck Dell's motive. This is a good poke in the eye for MS. If this helps MS in the DOJ trial - which I doubt - it can't counteract the blatant self-destructive stuff MS has already done in that venue.
I see this as a good step in the right direction. Let's see what kind of response it gets. Quite frankly, if I had the money to order one of the 410 or 610 boxes now, I would, no hesitation.
BTW, Hendrix and beer at 6 am on a Saturday do wierd things to your mind.
Posted by AnnoyingMouseCoward:
For the most part, I agree with your sentiment.
The thing that has to be remembered about the current trial is that it is already over.
On day one of the trial, the DOJ presented his Billness with a very embaressing collection of "smoking e-mails". In short, they were telling his Billness "we know *exactly* what you have been doing and we have already decided on the *exact* number of teeth that we are going to punch out of your useless lieing mouth, so if your smart, you won't wate our time with useless BS..."
The DOJ already knows the extent of M$ criminal activities. The trial is simply being held as a pre-arranged media event to demonstrate to all of the hoplessly neieve "Microsoft true believers" that the DOJ is justified when they finally get around to nailing his Billness up to a tree. Events that have occured since the begining of the trial arn't relevent - the trial is about M$ activities over the last four years, not whats happened since the trial began.
The outcome of the trial was pretty much decided before it had even begun. The DOJ just hasn't told the rest of us yet.
My aplologies for the poor grammer and spelling, it's just that if I use the preview, it trashes my post ( yes, this is *definatly* beta right now ).
Posted by Kastern:
your'e right. why $99? you can just go get it for free! What a bunch of losers
Posted by ElvisTheKing:
This is not my opinion, these are facts:
The $20 is an installation charge for Linux, not a charge for Linux itself.
Dell's list price for NT, Win '98, '95, or Linux is $0.
RH Linux 5.2 does not support all of the options available on a Dell Precision Workstation, therefore the configurations available are limited.
90 days of support through Linuxcare comes standard on Precision Workstations loaded with Linux for a charge of $0. Workstations loaded with Linux are not charged for NT support (see below).
1 Year of NT support comes standard on Precision Workstations that are loaded with NT for a charge of $199 (list).
Add up the above, and tell me if you still think you are being charged a high premium for Linux.
Maybe not a website or Linux, but remember Walnut Creek's FreeBSD machine that keeps setting FTP transfer records.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Two cheers for Dell. Let's give them half a break here. In the months since the report came out on how OEMs refused to "unbundle" Windows from their machine, we've gone from:
1) Dell "not perceiving a market for Linux" to
2) Dell "not perceiving a market for Linux workstations" to
3) Dell providing for that market.
That's a lot of movement in a few months. And Dell aren't stupid. They know that Linux development is probably going to be less fragmented than MS's in the coming year or so, what with the glacial move towards Win2K, and the potential for a corporate dissection by the courts.
For sure, Linux comes at a premium now, but that's due to economies of scale. And Dell isn't a company for the purist who wants a machine built from scratch; they build solid, reliable, top-end machines and provide top-notch support. They're your boss's choice, and if your boss sees "Linux" among the options, at $99 extra, (s)he's going to wonder what's so good about Linux that Dell make you pay extra for it...
I'm writing this now, on my 1997 Dell machine, running Debian. I've no complaints. Yet another step towards world domination, yet another line in the sand trampled over.
That's one.
--
Xenu loves you!
Too many inodes and shit.
people tell me all the time that they would
love to see maya, discreet (now theres something
that will never happen, ive never seen a company
more dependant on wintel than kinetix), alias etc.
mostly irix people who like the better render times
of wintel boxen but miss the environment and
stability of linux. and MS haters who also refuse
to touch a mac (perception as a toy and a crappy OS)
I have the feeling you don't have a damn clue what an "inode" is, much less how to run a web site. Please, tell me how "inodes and shit" don't scale? Could you enlighten me as to how network traffic (hits per unit time) somehow directly relate to a filesystem's inability to, well, I think you meant scale?
On March 3rd, 1999, a company web server, a Pentium II Linux machine, besides serving SMB shares, handling company e-mail, and supporting a dozen or so interactive shells spawning intermittant compile jobs, happened to respond to 221,409 web hits in one 24 hour period. They were all pictures. The load average for any 15 minute period never wandered above 0.02. Stability and speed are not problems.
1:00am up 87 days, 15:11, 10 users, load average: 0.02, 0.02, 0.00
This is not fiction, nor is it unusual. In fact, we've probably had busier days. The only reason the box didn't serve 3 million hits when we weren't looking was that our T1 connection was completely saturated the entire time. I can honestly say not a single minute that day did I, for some very odd reason, wish AIX had anything to do with _my_ workday.
Figuring Mr. Sergeant knew much of what he spoke (however else would he dare to say that Linux isn't up to the task of serving content), I connected immediately to his posted web address, and this was the only response I received from his machine:
Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80004005'
[Microsoft][ODBC Driver Manager] The server appears to be not available.
/v3.asp, line 55
Hey boys and grrls, lets play a game. I'll pretend I'm some corporate suit in charge of buying machines, and I don't know what I'm doing. Let's see, we have a choice between MS Windows, which we've always used, or some other os for another $99. Safe move, or risk with additional cost. Hmm.. such a tough decision.
I can make some assumptions as to why Dell would put a rediculous charge on a Linux installation, but I'm not one to speculate or toss out conspiracy theories without proper intoxication.
Well, I don't have the details, but when I tried it myself earlier the same box running Linux *was* cheaper than the NT config. I still don't think they should be charging $20 above the cost of NT. It's a free OS, it should cost just enough to cover LinuxCare, Dell makes a bundle off of the boxes themselves already.
I like this growing trend of machines, and hopefully soon, whole systems coming pre-installed with linux. It means they can't use win-modems and win-printers, but will have to use the real deal instead.
No, it means it costs them more to stamp out Linux systems than Windows systems. Remember, Microsoft operating systems have a huge lead as far as OEM distribution is concerned, and Dell's been doing that for years. They have the science of shipping Windows systems down pat.
With Linux systems, they likely have to do their installations completely differently, probably with at least some mild human intervention.
Please pay attention to the recent news. No-one is getting anything other than publicity from the recent efforts to get a refund directly from Microsoft. They didn't sell you Windows. Your PC manufacturer did. It isn't nice, it isn't fair, but that's the way it is. And good luck getting a refund from them, either. The inclusion of whatever version of windows you're getting is clearly marked in the description of the PC, so by purchasing the machine, you are electing to have windows. Or at least such a case can be made. After all, you do have the option to buy a machine from someone who won't put nasty MS products all over your nice new HD.
And if you install your own OS on a PC after you get it from the manufacturer, you are on your own, warranty and support wise. That's the main difference between factory installed and roll-your-own OS. And that's what Dell is charging for.
You're just jealous 'cuz the voices talk to *me*
The $99 isn't for the code, the drives are cloned and the software is free, its for support staff. If they are installing it themselves, they are committing to having it work, and supporting it through their normal channels. They have to pay for testers, to certify the few configurations they presently offer. They have to pay for devs, to tweak everything for their specific config. And they have to pay to train and staff the phone monkeys, to handle all the wacky calls.
It would be much too much of a pain to us and to them to treat Linux-equipped machines differently from MS boxes, and only have pay-as-you go support when everyone else is under warranty. They'd have to clearly identify machines with factory Linux, maybe even a special set of serial numbers, to tell who gets what support. And the cultists would probably whine about a Gates-led conspiracy then, too. So they have to have Linux trained bodies to throw at the phone bank in case some script-kiddie in Iowa talks daddy into buying him a redhat box, and then promptly blows it up doing something deeply stupid. Dell doesn't care if the end-user is an idiot, they'll still sell the machine. The normal Linux idiot filter, where by the time a person can get it to work he has to know at least a little about his machine, fails when its guaranteed to work out of the box.
Once they sell more boxes - and have metrics about how few Linux users have to call for Dell help - the margin will drop. Simple as that. The first people to buy will get charged more to pay to offset the risk Dell is taking, to add the staff before they sell the machines. As selling factory-installed redhat becomes part of normal business, and the folks needed become part of the normal staffing requirements, the cost difference will probably lean toward Linux' favor.
But you can still blame Bill Gates if you want, far be it from me to take away what little joy some of you get from life.
You're just jealous 'cuz the voices talk to *me*
While Dell clearly didn't quite "get the Unix" market back then, they were one of the very few PC vendors that even tried to "get it." That, in it self, is reason to hold out a lot of hope for Dell.
SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
BTW, Rob, if you want free discussions going on here, I challange you to keep this post instead of removing it Otherwise this message board is no better than a company sponsered board
I doubt that Rob removed your post. I doubt that Rob had anything to do with what happened to your post.
I am not going to come out of the AC (Thats my choice)
Being an AC is your choice, but it does have consequences such as not being able to automatically set your "viewing threshold" and see that your previous message had its score dropped to -1. This was most like done by a moderator other than Rob.
*Why* did a moderator drop your score? I don't know, but one guess is that it sounded somewhat belligerent. Had you not posted it as an AC, it would still have had a score of zero and would be visible by default.
I have a bone to grind with some of the posters here.. While saying that VA and Linux-hw use quality components.. they flame Dell for not using quality components. Do you all have evidance for that.
Kit Cosper didn't say anything about the quality of parts that Dell uses, he certainly didn't flame them.
SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
Name one. Just one. If I was running a million hits/day site I'd choose either AIX or Solaris too. Look at the problems on Linux with inodes and shit like that when you try and scale it up. Yes - I've had these problems. So has Slashdot.
Matt. Want XML + Apache + Stylesheets? Get AxKit.
Screw Dell's support of software (OS), if I bought a Dell, I would only call them for help if the hardware itself failed anyway, so why would I want to pay them for any OS?
I did my pricing for mini-tower workstations for small businesses (fewer than 400 employees) and the price differential was roughly $920 in NT's favor. Other people compared desktop workstations for home users and got a $20 difference.
Another problem lies in the difficulty in doing an apples-to-apples comparison; the default configurations for Dell NT workstations is wildly different from the defaults for Linux workstations.
In any case, while I like Dell's workstation hardware (reliable, easy to configure) I find that Dell offers too many configurations to too many markets, with too much price fluxuation, depending upon the presumed target demographic group.
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
For starters, the Linux version is sold on a different price page than the Windows 9X/NT version, and has *much* fewer options -- no dual processor options, no sound card options, misc other options missing. The options for the two pages are in different sequences, making comparison much harder too.
After grumbling a bit, I pulled up 2 browser windows, and side-by-side matched options for the following configuration:
Precision 410 MiniTower, Pentium II/450, 128mb ECC RAM, (1) 9gb SCSI HD, 21" UltraScan 1600HS monitor, Diamond Permedia 2 AGP graphics card, IOMEGA ATAPI Zip drive
The price for Windows NT: $3891
The price for Linux: $4809
What's wrong with this picture???
We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
a.) Dell is the first major manufacturer to have enough gall to stand up to Microsoft and actually INSTALL Linux and not just issue a horde of press releases saying that they are thinking about it.
/.ers want to do is gripe about one thing or another...
b.) Depending on the options you choose, you CAN INDEED get a Linux-based system from Dell for cheaper than an NT system. Likewise, on certain options, they are more expensive on Linux. Dell has had to implement all new policies to support Linux, and some initial costs can be expected to help recoup from these. Just because the OS is (theoretically) free doesn't stop normal economics from taking effect -- somebody has to still stand there and either install it or copy from a drive image...
c.) Give them time... Once Dell has systems out on the market for a while, they'll work out all the bugs, and then more companies will jump on the bandwagon... I garauntee a lot of other companies are watching with some speculation on whether or not Dell will be successfull on this little venture. If we want other companies to begin to offer Linux (or for that matter, BeOS, FreeBSD, or any other MS alternative), we need to offer then a bit of support, and not start flaming them like mad. If the suits at Dell happen to be reading this, they'll be seeing very few positive threads here. Seems like all
If Dell is tacking a premium onto their Linux boxes that means they think people will pay the price. Be flattered. It also means that they think they don't have margin pressure because they are the first of the "big guys" to sell a pre-loaded, direct, Linux desktop. When other competitors show up and compete in this niche then the price will fall. --- Josh
This seems like fake linux support. Offer it, but at the same time price it unreasonably. Some people will go for it but by and large they won't be troubled by actually supporting it. I'm assuming Dell sells reasonable standard systems (pick a processor, pick some memory, pick a hard drive, pick X the only video card they sell that linux supports and pick a credit card) so I'd also assume that they could have a master hard drive image that they just master/slave copy.
Actually, thats something I've been wondering about as well. Is Windows actually installed when you buy a 'puter from a large vendor like Dell, or is it just a copy of some pristine image? If it is then even if Windows comes pre-installed and you do access it when you turn it on to install linux you still haven't violated the terms of the MS license agreement (you didn't install it, the copy on the machine isn't even the copy covered by the license)
Is it $99 worth of difference? I don't know, I don't think very many people know for sure.
I'd be happy to pay the extra $99 (for a laptop -- I put my own desktop systems together) if and only if Microsoft doesn't get a dime of my purchase.
Rumors are that IBM might use Dell to sell IBM computers...
I am confused about something. When I went to the configuration page, it told me
"1 component selection may require changes to other system options. Please check below."
The CD-ROM option said
"17/40X IDE CD-ROM for Windows NT"
but there was no option to change it. Is this their way of offering Linux without actually having to sell any machines since they would have this conflict?
Good for them.
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
Is that the best you Linux trolls can do? What about Yahoo!, Walnut Creek CDROM and Microshaft Hotmail on FreeBSD - now they're large websites!
BTW, "The server appears to be not available"? Appears? How's that for an understatement by Microsoft...
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Hardware is already competitive and very cheap. Fortunately, there are no monopolies on processors or motherboards at the moment (I'm talking Intel architecture) and Windows keeps getting slower and slower, so hardware keeps getting faster and cheaper.
Via mail-order, I can order all the necessary components and build my own system at a price comparable to (or cheaper than) something that Dell would offer.
Granted, I think it would be a cool idea -- as a hobby. I just don't really see any practical value to it since the hardware market is so competitive.
--
Mark Fassler
fassler at frii dot com
I'm starting to see this from all the commercial unix vendors - "linux is OK for low end server work, but our (insert commercial OS here) is more appropriate for high end work."
Not that linux would be appropriate for 1 million hits/day, sweet christ that's a lot of work. But how many people have a million hits per day?
There are some very high profile, busy sites running free unixes, yahoo, deja news, etc.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Slashdot get nearly a million hits per day, and it is all beta cgi scripts and only runs on a dual P2.
What about a quad zeon or alpha machine?
support gun control: take guns from cops
Not that it matters, but it is 17 machines, not a single machine running linux. Of course www.micros~1.com is about 3,000 NT servers.
support gun control: take guns from cops
We've got one post up there that says the Linux-configured box is $1K more than the NT box, while some other posts say that the Linux box is $200 cheaper.
Could someone do a detailed comparison?
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
From DejaNews(obviously biased)website:
Deja News is one of the top destination sites on the Web, with some four to five million unique users a month who generate more than 125+ million pageviews monthly.
Which would be about 3 million hits/day. Check netcraft, and you find - Linux/Apache.
They claim to process over a million articles a day as well. And it's a remarkably responsive site.
"Images are incapable of repose." - Bachelard
We provide a service, that service is ensuring that the components we install in our systems are the best available. Have you priced a PC Power & Cooling power supply lately? Yes, they cost more than most other power supplies, but they last . Some of them have a 5 year warranty.
As far as the software, we know where it comes from, and we care where it comes from. I've used Linux since the early days of the SLS distribution (10 floppies). Yes, we've been in the trenches supporting and pushing the development of Linux for many years, unlike the opportunistic people out there who just want to sell computers, we want to sell Linux computers.
Now, if you would care to come out from behind the AC mask I'll be happy to discuss this in more detail as you like. Otherwise you'll be off the scope since I normally don't see AC posts. Thank Rob for the filtering!
--Kit
Former Inmate, VA Linux Sanitarium
For example, we've got a client that has used 4 of our SMP boxes with 100+ GB of RAID storage to help replace a couple of mainframes. I'm sure the folks at VA have similar stories. We're both offering onsite service and you can get Linux installed the way you want. No hassles, no worries.
Before anyone calls either of us a "garage" business we've just signed a lease for a new facility and VA is in the middle of relocating. Neither of us are Dell (yet :-) but we're both a long way from where we started.
--Kit
Former Inmate, VA Linux Sanitarium
I dunno about now, but a while ago, computer makers really DID have to pay for 95 for every system, regardless of installed os. If the maker didn't agree with that deal, ms packed its bags and went elsewhere, carrying its os contract with it.
I'm running a permedia 2 board.. on..
:) otherwise its' off to NT to play quake2/quake/HL
my debian machine (potato)
running xfree86 3.3.3.1 (get it from X task force site)
it's stable and beautiful.. wish 3d games work on this.. i suppose q3a would be the first
--
I agree that the $99 charge could be to cover Dell's Linux support costs (although a hidden M$ tax would'nt surprize me either).
I disagree that their support costs are going to turn out to be low, at least not at first.
It's not that Linux is harder to maintain than Windows. My experience agrees with others--Linux is more reliable, and once you get something working, it stays working.
The problem is the learning curve. A large percentage of Dell's customers will be starting with no Linux experience (or Unix for that matter). The fact that Linux is pre-installed will help of course, but Dell is going to have to deal with questions like "How do I get my ADSL modem working?", or "How do I install application X?".
It also won't help that there is a lot of good support on the Internet. Current Linux users are mostly Hackers, and they are, by definition, self-teaching. Future Linux users (not to mention your typical barely competent sysadmin) will not be Hackers, and they will need their hands held.
In order for Linux to realize the low support costs that should accompany its quality, a few things need to happen:
1. Linux distributions need to come with better documentation (Redhat--your book sucks!).
2. Installation procedures for Linux applications need to be simplified, standardized, and documented.
3. There needs to be enough experienced Linux users around that new users can turn to their co-workers, friends, and sons and daughters for help, the way they do today with Windows.
I predict a rosy future for Linux, but we all know that getting there is not going to be a cakewalk, especially when it comes to getting the general public involved.
on my system if they paid me $99.
:(
Besides that, the only modem option available is a CRAPPY WINMODEM --- duuuhuh
I like that ... http://slashdot.org/www.dell.com
Yes, IBM is not dummy, having delt with the
wrath of the DOJ for too many years. IBM is
NOT going to push Linux on desktops till the
DOJ vs MS is in closure stage. Look at what
AOL consuming Netscape did. Hang in there
people, we don't want Linux from putting
Micros~1 behind bars! They must do time for
the damages done or ANY OS will have slim
change in hell at gaining much on the desktop.
MS-Ziff Davis will pummel Linux as soon as
the case is over.
Locutus
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
You seem to forget that there is a Judge
involved. In 1994, Microsoft was in the same
pickle and signed a weak agreement with the DOJ.
The Judge assigned to review the agreement, one
Justice Sporken, read it and saw that it would do
nothing to right was was already done and he
rejected it. Janet Reno, took the case from
Sporken and handed it to on Justice Jackson who
was told to sign it by Reno.
In other words, it ain't over til Fat Billie is
sing'n the blues. And we are not safe until then.
Locutus
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
http://www.aslab.com http://www.tcu-inc.com http://www.oemcomputers.com http://www.swt.com
-- Donovan
Once a lot of people start buying machines with linux preloaded, it will be almost impossible for MS to use these defacto per-processor licensing agreements without the DOJ hitting them ( they're still staggering away from their last bout ... at'em, Boies !!! )
This news is not earth shattering, it is just another small step that linux is making into the mainstream. However, it is making small steps so rapidly that I dare not blink for fear of missing one (-;
Cheers,
--Donovan
http://www.tcu-inc.com
http://www.swt.com or
http://www.aslab.com
or whoever. The Dell machines are nice , but an LVD SCSI machine is a real overkill for about 99% of users. To summarise, I would recommend these things to a developer (or a gimper / povray user ) with a large budget, but not a typical home user.
On the other hand, the afore-mentioned linux shops guys sell desktops in the more reasonable $1500 range, which is about what you'd expect to pay for a quality consumer desktop ( tcu-inc sell AMD based machines in the sub 1000 range )
This is a positive step in that Dell is beginning to embrace linux as a desktop OS. The next step will be for them to embrace it as a mainstream desktop OS and start installing it firstly on their Optiplex lines and secondly on their Dimension lines.
Cheers,
--Donovan
CHeers,
--Donovan
Read the warranties. VA offer 1 year. A lot of the "cheeseball linux" shops offer 2 - 3 years. Sure, it would be nice if we could all afford to buy from VA. But not everyone can, and a lot of people make the decision not to buy from linux shops because they are pointed to VAResearch, but can't afford to buy a pentium II VA machine . And the point I wanted to raise is that there *ARE* linux hardware vendors that can beat Dell on price and service.
...
NONE of the linux shops put "crappy hardware" in the machines, in fact if your budget for a machine+monitor is $2000- , VA will give you a *much* lower quality machine than some of the other guys. Take a look around and see if any of the linux hardware shops put "crappy hardware" in the machines. On the contrary, the place I just purchased from uses quality components from the board to the video card to the case to the modem
I would understand your "point" about "peace of mind" if VA were substantially more generous in their service and/or used substantially better parts than the other dealers. But they are not.
Have a nice day.
-- DOnovan
And I picked an ASUS. See Toms Hardware guide or any other hardware review site for rave reviews of the ASUS boards.
cheers,
-- Donovan
My point was not to whine about Dell. I think their move is welcome, but they will have to go further to appeal to most linux users. ( it'd be nice to see linux on their optiplex line ) But it is worth noting that the price of a TCU-inc machine is basically the sum of the parts plus $50-. This doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course, we have no idea what Dell's setup cost "really" is because they don't itemise like TCU. We do know that whatever the windows setup costs, the linux setup costs $100 + the price of an windows license + the cost of the windows setup. Note also that linux shops ( including TCU ) tend to do things like set up auto fs, register you for Star Office on request, partition the way you request. You really do get some *service* for the $50. They are charging for a decent "set up" and testing, not just a dump of all the packages. cheers, --Donovan
The VARstation 26d:
Seattle motherboard, Celeron 300A CPU, 5G IDE HD (what brand ??? ) , 64MB RAM, 8MB G200 video.
$1395.
Add $179 for a modem.
For a comparable price, the other linux vendors could give you a penitum II-350, a hard drive twice as big, twice as much memory, a ZIP drive, and a better motherboard.
The registration has two parts. You register at their site, and you have to type in the details when you install.
Let me tell you most board comming from Taiwan cost next to nothing.
WTF are you talking about ??? TCU use Intel boards as the default. Your conspiracy theory about them using "cheap" Taiwanese boards to cut costs just has no substance. Especially when you consider that they will ship a system with ANY board you choose. BTW, I've yet to see a linux shop use an LX board in their pentium II systems. FUD again.
( BTW, the "cheap" asus p2b series IS FCC class B compliant. So are the inwin cases. And they get better reviews than the intel boards ... see Tom's guide or any other review. )
About the "if you go to servers" ... who cares ? I don't want to buy a server. We were discussing "workstations". Dell are offering a fair deal , but it's only a fair deal if you are in the market for a killer machine. Their precision workstation is nice, but it is very high end. The linux shops offer a broader product range.
Firstly , the small vendors who are linux based have gradually taken the following steps ...
- Supported linux on slightly overpriced , high end servers and PCs ( VaResearch comes to mind
... ) - Supported linux on reasonably priced high grade consumer desktop models ( eg LHS, Penguin, SWT, ASL )
- Made low cost AMD systems available ( tcu-inc )
Meanwhile, we have seen similar trends from the major PC manufacturers, who seem to be taking steps to make sure they don't lose the linux users to linux friendly shops. In the last few months, Dell has taken the following steps:- Offered linux to anyone who will buy in
- Offered "linux compatible" workstations
- Installed and supported linux on workstations
Does anyone else see a pattern ? I am betting that Dell will have linux on their consumer lines before long, and the pricing will be less discriminatory.cheers,
--Donovan
Grip this.
You speak of captialism. Well in modern day times that means hitting a price point the consumer will eat up. This does not mean setting a price point that falls outside the range of consumer acpetance.
Now look at the surrounding environment of linux being installed on deliverable commoditized workstations.
What you find is a level of user expectation that is going to see a 99$ addition to the base unit and not grasp why they shouldnt just get an extra 64 meg of ram instead.
Linux folks who know enough about linux to get over the 99$ tag will not be having linux preinstalled on a DELL in the first place, so your talking about an entirely differnt market.
They should make it not only attrative but set the price so it seems its a give away. Why? Becuase then dell gets to be Firstest with the Mostest linux sales...which if you can see down the road will mean they will get mad bizness from folks who will be looking to jump on the bandwagon.
Pricing too high early on will mean they wont get the flood gate reaction buy. If they ran a LINUX FOR JUST 30$--JOIN THE REAL COMPUTER REVOLUTION AT A GREAT PRICE--deal then you would see folks going krazynuts koko.
Why waste a great marketing ploy with a bad price point?
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
99 bucks does seem a bit too much at this point. Shit, they should be dropping it down for the cost of the RH cds, if thats the distro they are going on.
This whole "LInux INstalled on a PC at deliver"
will only fly IF its a good thing for consumers, and they are all about the bottom line.
Linux heads and the like will do the install themselves, I mean what died-in-the-wool *nixer would use a preinstall of the os with out spending more time tweeking with it, oin which csae you might as well have installed it yourself.
So to sum up MAke IT Attractive to the Consumer or this is going to go the way of 3d game controlers
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
This is definitely FAKE "support" for Linux. It is no coincidence that the OEM that is coziest with Big Daddy Bill, whose CEO is the biggest OEM-SuckUp-To-Gates is also the one that is "offering" Linux preinstalled. Michael Dell held Billie's hand during the Hatch Hearings, recall? You can bet they were probably ASKED to do this on a limited basis for 1) MS knows Dell will drop it whenever MS says, and 2) so MS can say, "See??? There really -IS- competition! See??? We really -DON'T- have a monopoly!". I guarandamntee you that when the trial is over, and MS isn't stopped, they will "cuttoff their air supply" on Linux preloads by major OEMs just like they do with everything and everyone else.
And of course if they price them such that they are more expensive, or less desirable in other ways, then they can say, "Well, we offered them, but there was not enough interest." What creeps.
This is not a Good Thing, it is a Scary Thing.
No, no, no.. its not $99 its MS-tax + $99 which will give Dell ~= $180 for a free Operating System.. wonder if they provide manuals, support, and cd's :)
Why shouldn't Alias | Wavefront port their software to Linux, especially on the new SGI NT box? I don't think it would be too hard; they'd have to support the same hardware they do under NT, and they'd give Irix lovers a way out.
I don't see them NOT doing that, once an easily installable Linux exists for the new systems.
D
----
(I've just read this whole page, and their seems be some disagreement on if or what the additional Linux cost is at Dell.)
Don't discount the economies of scale in trying to figure out the "real" cost to Dell of supporting Linux.
If you sell computers, and
80% of your customers want operating system "X" (98)
19% of your customers want operating system "Y" (NT)
1% of your customers want operating system "Z" (Linux)
,your overhead costs for OS "Z" is going to be much higher even if OS "Z" can be obtained for $200 less than X and Y.
Ramping up an organization as big as Dell on Linux is not inconsequential. There are integration costs, testing costs, sales person training, legal costs, new business relationships to manage, reprogramming the order systems, de-standarizing the winmodem, teaching people how to pronounce and spell "Linux", and so on.
If I were them, I would charge the early (mainstream) adopters extra just so I could afford to ramp the organization up.
(Besides, they are not selling to the OC-Celery homebrew crowd. They are probably targeting small business and big corporate accounts, where a pre-install is definately worth $100 in labor costs.)
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder if they still have to pay for Windows for every machine even if it isn't installed. I wouldn't put it past citizen Gates to swing a royalties deal like that.
Probably not though.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
It's a start, but Dell shouldn't really be that stupid. Give them time, hopefully they'll figure it out.
OK,
so I am the famous benprogrammer who is on top of the Slashdot page.
I'm famous, so what?
Anyway, I not only want to get rid of these messages, but also I wanted to say that I really need an Linux PC.
The only thing I can get here is a PII 350, which I need a BX chipset motherboard for and some DIMM 7ns 100MHz SDRAM, etc.
This is going to cost me.
So, what about this quote: "you can run Linux on an 486DX-66."
OK, try finding one over here.
Good luck, you'll need it!
I checked at Dell and I couldn't choose RH linux
If you're paying $99 on top of a complete system, is that on top of the tax to bill. If not, shouldn't it be cheaper, once you subtract the Winblows cost?
--
Wage Slave Journal
How about www.starwars.com?
I think that is running linux and apache,
and had about 350 million downloads of trailer 2
at about 25 meg a pop, in the place of one week.
Is that good enough?
"sometimes I wish I was blind I thought I saw a whole lot more than this"
urgh, hmmph
thought I should better check
www.starwars.com is running Apache/1.3.4 (Unix) on Solaris, according to netcraft.
oh well I admit it I was Wrong, but how does one eat ones words when they are on a screen?
"sometimes I wish I was blind I thought I saw a whole lot more than this"
IIRC, they bought ESIX (who made an SVR4 implementation) and later renamed the product to Dell Unix. Driver support was pretty nice for the times.
Am I the only skeptic here? Why am I not impressed at all that dell is "offering" linux for 99 bucks.
Umm... can we put the price of win98 (which we won't be purchasing) towards that 99 dollars...? Something tells me the answer is no. Instead- we're still paying for windows, and we get slapped with a ridiculous 99 fee- linux or windows, from dell's perspective the installation is hardly any different. If I recall correctly, you used to be able to get linux on a dell for $175. I guess it's on sale now.
j. scott olsson
Folks! If Dell can get people to pay it then great! If not, then Dell can a) not offer the service, b) lower the price. This is called c-a-p-i-t-a-l-i-s-m. Remember that Dell's marketing emphasizes customization, so don't be suprised if a wide list of options for linux show up on Dell's website. That's going to be much more labor intensive then simply spewing a win9x image onto a drive, and therefore more expensive.
You didn't expect them to install it for you for free did you? Get a grip!
there are a couple things which makes me wonder... The only cd option for a linux box is a "17/40X IDE CD-ROM for Windows NT" what the hell is that..
Also, the price at first looks steap because by default, they are packing a 21 inch moniter with it.. by selecting a 17 inch moniter, it automaticly reduces the price by like $400.
All in all though, I did a side by side comparison of two boxes... One with win(lose)NT and one with Linux. The linux box came out to be 200 bucks cheaper... not that bad really. But, I also noticed how they didnt have nearly the amount of options as they had for the loseNT boxes... Raid being one of them.
>
Just recovered from the big feast after the LinuxWorld Conference Japan '99. At the conference, a session about large scale installation of Linux on an university campus was on the agenda. The 600 machines got delivered and installed by IBM. They do such a thing if requested. Other companies are scrambling to catch the high demand with NEC starting installation services (700.000 Yen for 50 PCs, about $5500) and CTC will start selling UltraPenguins. Sun is helping them to localize the stuff.
Probably none. Dell is selling these to corporate customers. Go to Pricewatch ang get your cheap boxes an install Linux yourself. Be happy that a MAJOR PC manufacturer is offering Linux. Now my company might look at Linux as a real OS since Sell is offering it (something I've been telling them for yeard).
Cheers
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Even though UNIX apps may not be technically difficult to port to Linux, vendors won't do it until there is enough demand from users to justify the support costs involved. So far, mainly server app vendors have seen this demand.
I would like to see this happen too, but right now there's just not as much desktop demand for Linux as there is server demand, probably because to managers, the perceived benfits are less for desktop systems. Eventually critical mass will be obtained but it may take longer than it did for servers.
1.) Overall, major PC vendors like dell selling Linux machines to single users on their web site is good for Linux. Eventually, if the demand is high and they become more familiar with Linux, they will offer more hardware combinations. At this point they don't know Linux that well so I assume that at first they want to limit what they have to support.
2.) Regardless of the price relative to other Dell machines, these prices (at least for the Xeon machines) are a bit lower than VA or Penguin Computing. I'm not saying we shouldn't support Linux friendly vendors - I, for one, would rather buy my machine from VA or Penguin - but the point is that their pricing is actually competetive against what's already out there. Over time, competition will lower prices to the level of Windows machines.
3.) Many companies (including the one I work for) buy all of their PCs from Dell. Having Dell visibly support Linux may help increase the level of acceptance of Linux in companies like these.
Dell's behavior has often been less than great when it comes to supporting non-MS alternatives, but we don't have to pick nits(sp?) and flame the hell out of them when they make a stab (albeit a somewhat clumsy stab) at doing something right.
Seems a little steep.
I thought it had 1 million downloads of Trailer 2.
Name one. Just one.
Ever heard of Dejanews?
the link is to the netcraft survey page of the site
--
--
My sometimes helpful blog
Banana, that is. That's the sticker that I put on them.
My wife's is a Chiquita and she loves it. She thinks it's great... whatever OS she wants (in her case, Windows) and free support 24/7 (at least when I'm not at work).
Roll your own is the only way to go.
Pretend there is some witty statement here.
I made two identical machines with the exception of the operating system. Well this is what I thought I did. When I went into the Print/Fax view to confirm that they were identical I found that the Linux machine had 2 processors. Even though there is no option for it the price seems to be as if the machine is a dual processor machine. Dell needs to fix this. When I added a second processor to the NT machine the price for the Linux machine was $20 more than the NT one.
it is 99 bucks cheaper than the others...
K
"If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly owned if it is not shared." -St. Augustine
Here's a quote from the infoworld article:
... [blah blah blah]"
"No one runs large, million-hits-per-day Web sites on
Linux," Occleshaw said, adding that IBM would still
recommend its AIX Unix-based server
Come on, that can't be true! I know for a fact I alone have
been responsible for at least 100,000 hits on Slashdot today!
(This having been an otherwise slow day)
It's not IBM who needs to learn from Dell--it's COMPAQ.
I don't know about this $99 Linux tax... =)
-----------------------
To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
There I went shooting my mouth off again.
... some bugs to be ironed out still perhaps ...
Now I'm confused as to what the real price difference is. I've seen close on a half-dozen different estimates, ranging from much less to much more than a Win system. So I'm not sure anymore.
/. says I'm logged in. Why did it label that post of mine Anonymous Coward? Hmmm
". Linux costs an extra $20 over the price of a similarly configured Windows NT machine " what is this ? does that mean we still pay for the windows tax even tho we aren't getting it ??
Okay.
I am listening to Off the Hook right now.
it's very nice.
Emmanuel is bashing the mainstream media.
haehahehaeh
okay
cease
why should i pay extra for a free OS?
if anything, i should be getting a discount! They won't have to waste a copy of Windoze!! but i won't be buying anything from them anyways, so...
that's nice, eh?
ha hah a
okay.
TwistedGreen.
what
leave me alone!
CEASE!!!
*BLAM* *BLAM*
hahhahah
dead aliens.
^----- courtesy of Half-Life
Thanx for your 'observation.' I too went and investigated the claims and was nearly driven to sending them a nasty letter!
These days, after may years in the Unix 'wilderness' I've come to the conclusion that there are always better strategies.
Dell will get theirs. Unless they repent, of course.
The reason IBM won't do it right away is probably because they still aren't a direct seller. So, even if they offered it, it would still take forever to get thru the vendors and resellers. They haven't figured out that direct selling is the way to go!
{} ------ When I think of a good sig, I'll put it here