Hey hey it's fair enough to jump on the size. Same thing as "jumping on the price" of the PS3 which everyone knows will go down over the system's lifespan.
Performance goes up, price goes down (relatively). The usual. But that doesn't mean people can't in the meantime comment on the iPhone's/iPod Touch's small storage, or the PS3's price, or the price of standalone HD players or 1080p TVs, or whatever.
Anyway I did say "gotta start somewhere" in my OP so it's not like I'm saying it was a mistake to release...
I didn't mean to say that 30-40 albums is a large music collection, hehe. I have a LOT of music on my computer as well (probably 70 gigs? not sure anymore...) but I only really bother to throw 30-40 albums onto a portable media player because they're the ones I listen to for a year or something.
WRT the MS statement, to be fair given all of the open source and otherwise free software out there that folks write to make life with Windows easier, or for some added functionality, or whatever, it probably shouldn't be said that MS doesn't make good use of the greater software community.
With regards to non-OS products, I have no clue what kind of "hacking" the Zune has attracted (from personal experience though it's a total POS and no amount of "hacking" will make it not suck donkey dong but that's an aside), but the original Xbox was modded frequently and not really in "negative" ways (though unappreciated by MS since it was mostly for piracy).
MS attracts "negative" hacking because it's so dominant. Apple would too if its OS had such a large user base. As for "negatively hacking" a media player, well yeah that doesn't really happen to anyone:-)
So, it's not really a valid comparison I guess...
Anyway concerning your main point of a hack coming, yeah I wouldn't doubt it:-) I don't know how Apple officially/unofficially responds to such modding, but if they aren't making any real efforts to stem it I suppose that's admirable in some way.
$400 for 16 gigabytes of storage is simply not good enough for a lot of people with large music libraries who like to have 30-40 albums to listen to on command.
I like to watch video on these portable players (I have a Cowon A2 myself), so there's also seasons of anime or whatever to take up 4-8 gigs each.
In a year or so, when these things will hold 64 Gigs of flash memory, they will be great purchases for someone like myself. Until then, they're not even an option. And that's the single biggest "improvement" I'm looking forward to in future iPods. (Though I'll probably just grab a Q5 when it's available.)
Try to play Oblivion on the N64 or a Pentium II and tell me no boundary has been pushed in 10 years. Immersiveness created through highly advanced AI, procedurally generated landscapes, and character creation systems so complex and free-form they had no hope of being created in the past -- these are NOW.
If Gears of War exactly as it is now had come out on, say, some hardcore arcade system in 1997, people would have gone batshit insane over it. It would have been the equivalent of sending a Ferrari Enzo back in time to the 1960s or something.
Boundaries are pushed by game developers all the time. You just need to figure out what these boundaries are nowadays. Back when gaming was in its infancy, a lot more basic premises would have qualified as "novel" or "undiscovered." The technology wasn't even there for designers to really focus on the visual, musical, or something like AI -- all pieces of what makes an entertaining gaming experience.
Now game creators are finding new ways to be novel, and this includes controller design (Guitar Hero, Wiimote, etc.), sophisticated interaction of unprecedented levels with NPCs, and yes even game premise if you looked around for it.
Well, the folks I'm referring to weren't content with Wii Sports alone. They figured they'll be able to play a bit more than just that game (it does get kinda boring after a couple of days, heh...) but were disappointed to find that there was nothing else they were interested in for the time being.
In other words, I know far too many Wii owners who are playing PC/360/whatevs waiting until Dec. 3 to get Smash Bros Brawl so they have at least 1 game they feel like playing.
To a "well-rounded," savvy gamer I think there's something to find playable on EVERY console and handheld. But most everyone else either has rather limited taste in games (e.g. they dislike adventure or shooters or whatever maybe) or simply isn't aware of what's out there and what they would like. The way people buy a DVD player or a surround sound system for the "potential of entertainment" without really planning on any real movie library (and many end up only ever getting like 2 random DVDs), many buy a video game console.
So, yeah a lot of the time games sell consoles the way movies sell DVD players. In that "potentially might watch/play something when I have time" sort of way, rather than "I need to watch/play X and for that I need to buy Y" way that, say, you or I might reason.
Hmm you're totally a troll, heh. I'm not sure why call me a fanboy when I'm basically going to pick up a Wii the second I actually find one in stores ^_^
What makes you figure only a "fanboy" would buy a console without knowing much of its game library. I submit that half of all elementary school kids with a Wii or Playstation or Xbox didn't say "mom, dad, I want Metroid Prime Corruption or Shadow of the Collossus or Chronicles of Riddick" or whatever, they said "mom, dad, I want a Playstation" or "I want a Nintendo" or whatever. About the only game kids tend to know of until they actually *have* a console is Pokemon anymore...
As for adults, the accessibility of a console (wiimote) and the price still means more than the quality of the games, since *most of these people haven't actually played these games and have NO clue what their experience would be like.*
So, yeah you are the ultimate troll and I don't see how someone hasn't modded you down yet.
A console's purpose is playing games? Sure, kinda, except for the PS3 which almost everyone I know uses for movies and maybe Madden or something. Mind you, those people that buy Blu-Ray players buy them *to watch movies* but not because "omg Casino Royale came out on blu-ray and it's a must-watch." The situation with games/consoles to most non-hardcore-games is analogous.
If anyone's being a fanboy here it's you w.r.t. the Wii.
Well, Bioshock and Mass Effect are to me totally new franchises. I didn't play any of Bioshock's predecessors, and while Mass Effect is probably in many ways an evolution of KOTOR, it's very much a standalone title.
And I highly recommend the others, based on their predecessors ^_^ (Also I paid $300 for my premium Xbox a year ago)
I 100% see where you're coming from in what you're saying, and if the demographic that bought these 9 million Wii's was entirely Slashdot members, I'd be nuts to say what I did. But I know a LOT of people who bought a Wii without having a clue about ANY games on it or on the other consoles.
My personal experience has given me the following impression: most of the demographic that the Wii is aimed at (in terms of the "untapped" market, that is) knows three things: Xbox and Playstation are complicated to pick up. Wii is not as complicated. Guitar Hero is fun. And, well, Wii is cheaper than Guitar Hero ^_^
Even some friends of mine bought Wiis only to realize that they have nothing to play on them except for maybe one game they like. And they certainly didn't consider games available when they purchased the thing.
What sold the Wii was the controller and the intuitive playstyle it promises.
Meh, basically I still stand by my OP. "Gamers" (folks who keep up with upcoming titles, etc.) pay a LOT more attention to a console's game library than do other folks, and it's these other folks who are buying up Wiis in such numbers.
I think that availability on other systems shouldn't *take away* from a system's library. If the Wii had Oblivion, Bioshock, Halo 3 coming out (*assuming* they'd be just as good as on the 360), I would probably not have even written the 2nd bit of my original post at all.
An AAA title being released cross-platform helps ALL systems sell, so that *should* count ^_^
I however would claim that this "new demographic" would be drawn in by 360/PS2/whatever games just as well if they were exposed to them. The Wii's controller is, however, more accessible than anything other than the Guitar Hero controller, which helps exposure. Likewise, so does the price tag and Nintendo's *GOOD* advertising campaign.
So, in my opinion it's not so much the games per se, as the Wii's design and the accessibility it's provided, through the reasons I've listed.
As far as 360 vs Wii and which has more potential, well my "list of games I want" for the 360 is still longer at the moment, what with Ninja Gaiden 2 and Gears sequels and Mass Effect and RE5. But the Wii's on its way to being a good purchase, especially by the end of the year with the release of Smash ^_^
That's the point, Oblivion and Bioshock AREN'T system sellers because games don't sell systems. You can get them on a $2000 PC over a $400 Xbox 360, woohoo:-/
Zelda on the Wii vs Zelda on the Cube has been discussed to exhaustion all over. It's personal taste. I prefer the Cube version because it's the original game map and Link is left-handed. MP3 vs Bioshock... depends on the gamer as well.
PS3 is doing dismally because of price. It's in no way a counterexample to my original post.
I also need to add that "advertisement spending" and "advertisement" aren't interchangeable in this context. When I say "advertisement" makes a difference, I mean *good advertisement,* not simply the existence of ads. Plus, I'm not sure what MS has been spending their ad dollars on, but I see Wii commercials on TV (I barely watch TV) and I don't see any 360 ones. Whatever reaches the audience, heh ^_^
Oh, but it IS "handily" outselling it. In HALF the time, it sold more units! At this rate, in another year it will have sold twice as many units overall. So, yeah it's just plain kicking the 360's butt.
Though I reckon Japan has much to do with it, seeing as 360 has NO presence there whatsoever.
How an I looking at the 360 library with "nerdy eyes":-) the games I enjoy on it include Oblivion, Gears of War, Bioshock, Forza 2, and DOA 4. I don't really see how those are "25 different FPS titles," and 3 of the 5 are quite original and 4 of them set new standards in their respective genres. (DOA 4 is mindless fun, that's about all.)
"Fun" is relative, period. A lot of people are having "fun" on their PS2. More than on all the other current-gen consoles combined, by far. So, what's been "long-forgotten" again?
"Loaded sounds and graphics" makes no sense, either. Gears, Oblivion, FFXII, Bioshock, and other visually appealing games get VERY good reception from both critics and gamers alike. They are NOT the problem.
"Repeats old concepts"... hmm, yeah how about a Zelda title, Metroid Prime title, Virtual Console, and a Resident Evil 4 remake for a "repeats old concepts"? If anyone goes for tried-and-true, it's Nintendo.
This is NOT a games sell a console situation in the slightest.
"System sellers" is kind of an inappropriate term here, as my whole point is games aren't what sells the system. Anyway, 360 also has Oblivion and Bioshock. Mind you, these games are also like a million times better than anything on Wii except Zelda, which is not even really a current-gen title and makes no sense to me as a "system seller" since it's also on Cube.
On the one hand, it's just a continuation of a year-long trend of Wii kicking the other consoles' butts hard. They're still hard to find because they disappear off the shelves as soon as they get put there. Anyway, this was all predicted a while ago and so isn't a surprise in that sense.
On the other hand, I find it QUITE surprising that the Wii can so handily outsell the 360 when its game library is, all things considered, horribly outmatched. This is a very strong example of the fact that games do NOT sell the system, as many gamers like to think. Advertisements and price tag do a LOT more than the shelves of dvd-size plastic boxes with the console's logo on them, it seems.
No I understand the option and where it came from originally. But, *on a console game,* that option simply can't just be "ported over" because it's retarded without remapped controls. Consoles hook up to TVs, which, well, don't rotate ^_^
And yes exactly as you said, we're not getting a true "fullscreen," but once again on Gamecube/Dreamcast! That, in my opinion, is ridiculous.
You're missing the point... the fact is, this game is not playable full screen, and it's a *console* game. In other words, there ARE NO ROTATING MONITORS >_ With this in mind, the controls *should* have been oriented in such a way that you're not forced to lie on your right side as you play the game if you want it full-screen.
Arcade shmups that scroll vertically have a monitor that's appropriately shaped, anyway. (Or at least use the rest of the screen for something...)
Maybe I just have higher standards than the typical Team Shanghai Alice fan, but whatevs.
You don't see the issue with not being able to play a game full-screen???? In that case I got some great beach-front property for sale in Nevada for you.
Dude seriously find me another GAMECUBE/DC game whose fullscreen mode assumes you've "rotated your display 90 degrees." It is HARD to rotate my 47" HDTV 90 degrees bro. PC games, ok, *some* flat panels can rotate like that. But not nearly all.
The controls are INSANELY stupid all things considered, there's really no defending it.
Umm, Ikaruga deserves LESS recognition than it got. Any game that, if you want to play full-screen, re-orients itself left-to-right while the controls remain down-to-up,... well heck Ikaruga is the only game I know of to have made this ridiculous design decision. The game is essentially unplayable full-screen.
Gradius V puts it to absolute and utter shame in every way. Treasure did a much better job with it than with Ikaruga.
I'm a big shmup fan, btw. Just a critical one, heh.
Slashdot Mirror
Hey hey it's fair enough to jump on the size. Same thing as "jumping on the price" of the PS3 which everyone knows will go down over the system's lifespan.
Performance goes up, price goes down (relatively). The usual. But that doesn't mean people can't in the meantime comment on the iPhone's/iPod Touch's small storage, or the PS3's price, or the price of standalone HD players or 1080p TVs, or whatever.
Anyway I did say "gotta start somewhere" in my OP so it's not like I'm saying it was a mistake to release...
I didn't mean to say that 30-40 albums is a large music collection, hehe. I have a LOT of music on my computer as well (probably 70 gigs? not sure anymore...) but I only really bother to throw 30-40 albums onto a portable media player because they're the ones I listen to for a year or something.
WRT the MS statement, to be fair given all of the open source and otherwise free software out there that folks write to make life with Windows easier, or for some added functionality, or whatever, it probably shouldn't be said that MS doesn't make good use of the greater software community.
:-)
:-) I don't know how Apple officially/unofficially responds to such modding, but if they aren't making any real efforts to stem it I suppose that's admirable in some way.
With regards to non-OS products, I have no clue what kind of "hacking" the Zune has attracted (from personal experience though it's a total POS and no amount of "hacking" will make it not suck donkey dong but that's an aside), but the original Xbox was modded frequently and not really in "negative" ways (though unappreciated by MS since it was mostly for piracy).
MS attracts "negative" hacking because it's so dominant. Apple would too if its OS had such a large user base. As for "negatively hacking" a media player, well yeah that doesn't really happen to anyone
So, it's not really a valid comparison I guess...
Anyway concerning your main point of a hack coming, yeah I wouldn't doubt it
$400 for 16 gigabytes of storage is simply not good enough for a lot of people with large music libraries who like to have 30-40 albums to listen to on command.
I like to watch video on these portable players (I have a Cowon A2 myself), so there's also seasons of anime or whatever to take up 4-8 gigs each.
In a year or so, when these things will hold 64 Gigs of flash memory, they will be great purchases for someone like myself. Until then, they're not even an option. And that's the single biggest "improvement" I'm looking forward to in future iPods. (Though I'll probably just grab a Q5 when it's available.)
But hey gotta start somewhere.
Try to play Oblivion on the N64 or a Pentium II and tell me no boundary has been pushed in 10 years. Immersiveness created through highly advanced AI, procedurally generated landscapes, and character creation systems so complex and free-form they had no hope of being created in the past -- these are NOW.
If Gears of War exactly as it is now had come out on, say, some hardcore arcade system in 1997, people would have gone batshit insane over it. It would have been the equivalent of sending a Ferrari Enzo back in time to the 1960s or something.
Boundaries are pushed by game developers all the time. You just need to figure out what these boundaries are nowadays. Back when gaming was in its infancy, a lot more basic premises would have qualified as "novel" or "undiscovered." The technology wasn't even there for designers to really focus on the visual, musical, or something like AI -- all pieces of what makes an entertaining gaming experience.
Now game creators are finding new ways to be novel, and this includes controller design (Guitar Hero, Wiimote, etc.), sophisticated interaction of unprecedented levels with NPCs, and yes even game premise if you looked around for it.
Well, the folks I'm referring to weren't content with Wii Sports alone. They figured they'll be able to play a bit more than just that game (it does get kinda boring after a couple of days, heh...) but were disappointed to find that there was nothing else they were interested in for the time being.
In other words, I know far too many Wii owners who are playing PC/360/whatevs waiting until Dec. 3 to get Smash Bros Brawl so they have at least 1 game they feel like playing.
To a "well-rounded," savvy gamer I think there's something to find playable on EVERY console and handheld. But most everyone else either has rather limited taste in games (e.g. they dislike adventure or shooters or whatever maybe) or simply isn't aware of what's out there and what they would like. The way people buy a DVD player or a surround sound system for the "potential of entertainment" without really planning on any real movie library (and many end up only ever getting like 2 random DVDs), many buy a video game console.
So, yeah a lot of the time games sell consoles the way movies sell DVD players. In that "potentially might watch/play something when I have time" sort of way, rather than "I need to watch/play X and for that I need to buy Y" way that, say, you or I might reason.
Hmm you're totally a troll, heh. I'm not sure why call me a fanboy when I'm basically going to pick up a Wii the second I actually find one in stores ^_^
What makes you figure only a "fanboy" would buy a console without knowing much of its game library. I submit that half of all elementary school kids with a Wii or Playstation or Xbox didn't say "mom, dad, I want Metroid Prime Corruption or Shadow of the Collossus or Chronicles of Riddick" or whatever, they said "mom, dad, I want a Playstation" or "I want a Nintendo" or whatever. About the only game kids tend to know of until they actually *have* a console is Pokemon anymore...
As for adults, the accessibility of a console (wiimote) and the price still means more than the quality of the games, since *most of these people haven't actually played these games and have NO clue what their experience would be like.*
So, yeah you are the ultimate troll and I don't see how someone hasn't modded you down yet.
A console's purpose is playing games? Sure, kinda, except for the PS3 which almost everyone I know uses for movies and maybe Madden or something. Mind you, those people that buy Blu-Ray players buy them *to watch movies* but not because "omg Casino Royale came out on blu-ray and it's a must-watch." The situation with games/consoles to most non-hardcore-games is analogous.
If anyone's being a fanboy here it's you w.r.t. the Wii.
Well, Bioshock and Mass Effect are to me totally new franchises. I didn't play any of Bioshock's predecessors, and while Mass Effect is probably in many ways an evolution of KOTOR, it's very much a standalone title.
And I highly recommend the others, based on their predecessors ^_^ (Also I paid $300 for my premium Xbox a year ago)
I 100% see where you're coming from in what you're saying, and if the demographic that bought these 9 million Wii's was entirely Slashdot members, I'd be nuts to say what I did. But I know a LOT of people who bought a Wii without having a clue about ANY games on it or on the other consoles.
My personal experience has given me the following impression: most of the demographic that the Wii is aimed at (in terms of the "untapped" market, that is) knows three things: Xbox and Playstation are complicated to pick up. Wii is not as complicated. Guitar Hero is fun. And, well, Wii is cheaper than Guitar Hero ^_^
Even some friends of mine bought Wiis only to realize that they have nothing to play on them except for maybe one game they like. And they certainly didn't consider games available when they purchased the thing.
What sold the Wii was the controller and the intuitive playstyle it promises.
Meh, basically I still stand by my OP. "Gamers" (folks who keep up with upcoming titles, etc.) pay a LOT more attention to a console's game library than do other folks, and it's these other folks who are buying up Wiis in such numbers.
Heh oops I didn't mean to be hypocritical here w.r.t. my OP; when I typed "helps systems sell" I really meant "makes all systems better purchases."
I think that availability on other systems shouldn't *take away* from a system's library. If the Wii had Oblivion, Bioshock, Halo 3 coming out (*assuming* they'd be just as good as on the 360), I would probably not have even written the 2nd bit of my original post at all.
An AAA title being released cross-platform helps ALL systems sell, so that *should* count ^_^
I however would claim that this "new demographic" would be drawn in by 360/PS2/whatever games just as well if they were exposed to them. The Wii's controller is, however, more accessible than anything other than the Guitar Hero controller, which helps exposure. Likewise, so does the price tag and Nintendo's *GOOD* advertising campaign.
So, in my opinion it's not so much the games per se, as the Wii's design and the accessibility it's provided, through the reasons I've listed.
As far as 360 vs Wii and which has more potential, well my "list of games I want" for the 360 is still longer at the moment, what with Ninja Gaiden 2 and Gears sequels and Mass Effect and RE5. But the Wii's on its way to being a good purchase, especially by the end of the year with the release of Smash ^_^
That's the point, Oblivion and Bioshock AREN'T system sellers because games don't sell systems. You can get them on a $2000 PC over a $400 Xbox 360, woohoo :-/
Zelda on the Wii vs Zelda on the Cube has been discussed to exhaustion all over. It's personal taste. I prefer the Cube version because it's the original game map and Link is left-handed. MP3 vs Bioshock... depends on the gamer as well.
PS3 is doing dismally because of price. It's in no way a counterexample to my original post.
I also need to add that "advertisement spending" and "advertisement" aren't interchangeable in this context. When I say "advertisement" makes a difference, I mean *good advertisement,* not simply the existence of ads. Plus, I'm not sure what MS has been spending their ad dollars on, but I see Wii commercials on TV (I barely watch TV) and I don't see any 360 ones. Whatever reaches the audience, heh ^_^
Xbox's future library is a monster as well:
Halo 3
Mass Effect
Ninja Gaiden 2
Resident Evil 5
Gears of War sequels
Banjo 3
And a year ago, you would have added Forza 2 and Bioshock to that list.
Oh, but it IS "handily" outselling it. In HALF the time, it sold more units! At this rate, in another year it will have sold twice as many units overall. So, yeah it's just plain kicking the 360's butt.
Though I reckon Japan has much to do with it, seeing as 360 has NO presence there whatsoever.
How an I looking at the 360 library with "nerdy eyes" :-) the games I enjoy on it include Oblivion, Gears of War, Bioshock, Forza 2, and DOA 4. I don't really see how those are "25 different FPS titles," and 3 of the 5 are quite original and 4 of them set new standards in their respective genres. (DOA 4 is mindless fun, that's about all.)
You're making no sense with that rhetoric.
"Fun" is relative, period. A lot of people are having "fun" on their PS2. More than on all the other current-gen consoles combined, by far. So, what's been "long-forgotten" again?
"Loaded sounds and graphics" makes no sense, either. Gears, Oblivion, FFXII, Bioshock, and other visually appealing games get VERY good reception from both critics and gamers alike. They are NOT the problem.
"Repeats old concepts"... hmm, yeah how about a Zelda title, Metroid Prime title, Virtual Console, and a Resident Evil 4 remake for a "repeats old concepts"? If anyone goes for tried-and-true, it's Nintendo.
This is NOT a games sell a console situation in the slightest.
"System sellers" is kind of an inappropriate term here, as my whole point is games aren't what sells the system. Anyway, 360 also has Oblivion and Bioshock. Mind you, these games are also like a million times better than anything on Wii except Zelda, which is not even really a current-gen title and makes no sense to me as a "system seller" since it's also on Cube.
On the one hand, it's just a continuation of a year-long trend of Wii kicking the other consoles' butts hard. They're still hard to find because they disappear off the shelves as soon as they get put there. Anyway, this was all predicted a while ago and so isn't a surprise in that sense.
On the other hand, I find it QUITE surprising that the Wii can so handily outsell the 360 when its game library is, all things considered, horribly outmatched. This is a very strong example of the fact that games do NOT sell the system, as many gamers like to think. Advertisements and price tag do a LOT more than the shelves of dvd-size plastic boxes with the console's logo on them, it seems.
No I understand the option and where it came from originally. But, *on a console game,* that option simply can't just be "ported over" because it's retarded without remapped controls. Consoles hook up to TVs, which, well, don't rotate ^_^
And yes exactly as you said, we're not getting a true "fullscreen," but once again on Gamecube/Dreamcast! That, in my opinion, is ridiculous.
You're missing the point... the fact is, this game is not playable full screen, and it's a *console* game. In other words, there ARE NO ROTATING MONITORS >_ With this in mind, the controls *should* have been oriented in such a way that you're not forced to lie on your right side as you play the game if you want it full-screen.
Arcade shmups that scroll vertically have a monitor that's appropriately shaped, anyway. (Or at least use the rest of the screen for something...)
Maybe I just have higher standards than the typical Team Shanghai Alice fan, but whatevs.
You don't see the issue with not being able to play a game full-screen???? In that case I got some great beach-front property for sale in Nevada for you.
Dude seriously find me another GAMECUBE/DC game whose fullscreen mode assumes you've "rotated your display 90 degrees." It is HARD to rotate my 47" HDTV 90 degrees bro. PC games, ok, *some* flat panels can rotate like that. But not nearly all.
The controls are INSANELY stupid all things considered, there's really no defending it.
Umm, Ikaruga deserves LESS recognition than it got. Any game that, if you want to play full-screen, re-orients itself left-to-right while the controls remain down-to-up, ... well heck Ikaruga is the only game I know of to have made this ridiculous design decision. The game is essentially unplayable full-screen.
Gradius V puts it to absolute and utter shame in every way. Treasure did a much better job with it than with Ikaruga.
I'm a big shmup fan, btw. Just a critical one, heh.