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Perhaps, but very many "normal" Muslims believe that Muslims who change their religion should be executed : http://www.pewforum.org/2013/0...
(Look for "Penalty for Converting to Another Faith")

There's not really a huge difference between the ISIS and many other Muslims. They want the same thing, and approve of the same methods. They just disagree on the targets and who gets to be Caliph.
See: http://english.ahram.org.eg/Ne...
That guy is like one of the bishops of the Sunnis.

The thing you have to be aware of is the Christian Reformation movement was actually about returning to what Jesus and the apostles were preaching and doing (which was quite different from what the "Non-reformed Christians" were preaching and doing - sale of indulgences). And if you actually looked at what Jesus and the Apostles preached and did (according to the Christians own accepted Biblical texts), you'd see that the Church/Christians at that time were deviating a lot from it.

So now, what if Muslims had a reformation movement and returned to doing what Muhammad and his followers preached and did?

Oh wait, but that's what the ISIS trying to do right? Now do you see the difference and the problem with asking or hoping for reformation in Islam?

Perhaps one hope is going to the Quran-only intepretation of Islam (the Quran tends to allow more "lenient" interpretations of certain things), but see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

p.s. By the way here's one of the leaders of mainstream Islam: http://english.ahram.org.eg/Ne...

So is there really such a big difference in thinking between him and the ISIS leaders?

2) It wasn't an execution, it was an armed conflict on a battlefield.

They raided a person's house during an illegally conducted military operation in foreign country.
The US government has danced around and blamed different government organizations but the fact remains that if it was a Title 10 operation then it was an illegal military operation as it was conducted in a foreign country that was not a US enemy and if it was a Title 50 operation then it was an illegal assassination.

Americans were shot at from and inside the house.

Irrelevant, they shouldn't have been there.

There was every reason to believe that Osama would have a suicide vest or otherwise resist violently to capture.

Yeah no shit if a bunch of my enemies smashed into my house during an illegal incursion in a foreign country id be pretty resistant to whatever the hell they wanted too!

Osama made no attempt to surrender and was therefore a combatant.

Firstly you don't know that and secondly if Pakistani troops smash into your house and you don't surrender does that make you a combatant and they can legally kill you? No.

If they'd found him face down naked and spread eagle on the floor screaming "I surrender" they would have taken him alive.

I suppose that's how people would find you if they broke into your house.

Islamist nutjobs are probably out of the running, for the moment, since Morsi was much closer to their camp than the army is. The US used to pay fairly handsomely for the friendship of Mubarak, and a lot of the sugar trickled down to the military; but I haven't heard any good conspiracy theories to the effect that the US is calling in its chits(and even if we were, we'd still have to magic those days of massive popular discontent into existence somehow, after years and years of paying the guy who just stopped oppressing the people recently, which would take some doing...)

It wouldn't totally surprise me if the (banal; but crushing) effect of substantial unemployment, especially among young urbanites, even educated ones, would have made any government's job difficult, and a government that drew its support more heavily from conservative hicks-in-the-sticks was especially vulnerable.

Be patient.

When Turkey's reforms reach a tipping-point, the West will realize - once again - that they got into bed with the wrong party. But that's a good 10 - 15 years away.

Don't do that; paint a bad person as good.

* Kurds continue to remain persecuted under Erdogan: they continue to be referred to as "separatists" and "terrorists"
* Illegal fly-overs / incursions continue to happen into what is comfortably Greek airspace
* Erdogan is gradually moving Turkey towards an Islamic state

The trick is not to get your news on Turkey from the established US / British press. (The BBC is particularly one-sided.) They are just sprouting their respective government's foreign policy.

Read that last link I posted above, and contrast that with what you're told in the mainstream press.

The largest Egyptian state owned newspaper, Al Ahram, published a spoof Kissinger quote as genuine.

Of course, it plays to the sentiments of some about the revolutions of the Arab Spring are really a foreign conspiracy for chaos and wars, yadda yadda.

They did not even apologize for it ...

This article shows Israeli security at the airport *demanding* incoming US passengers to open their Gmail accounts for perusal. Can imagine UK or US govt Nazi agencies pulling this sh|t sooner than later.

Perhaps by "Islamic" you mean "Arabic" governments and by "all" you mean "some". Quite a few Arab govt's are still safe. Most notably Palestine, Syria and Jordan

I guess you haven't checked the news lately. Protests have broken out all over Syria today. It looks like it may be their turn next.

The thing about a domino effect is that none of the other dominos are safe, so matter how long they may have been standing on end like that without distrubance.

"The new authority will only be used to go after terrorists..."

• Emergency Law in Egypt
  
• 30,000 political detainees
  
• BBC
  
• Washington Post
  
• Egyptian law
  

• 
  Let us start with an Egyptian story, even though one told by a Greek. According to Plato in Phaedrus when Hermes, or Theut, the alleged inventor of writing, presented his invention to the Pharaoh Thamus, the Pharaoh praised such an unheard of technique supposed to allow human beings to remember what they would otherwise forget. But Thamus was not completely happy. "My skillful Theut," he said, "memory is a great gift that ought to be kept alive by continuous training. With your invention people will no longer be obliged to train their memory. They will remember things not because of an internal effort, but by mere virtue of an external device."
  

Here is some proof of the rampant racism against Arabs from reputable sources:

Human Rights Watch: Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools
Haaretz: JNF cannot discriminate against Arabs in allocating land rights
Al-Ahram: 'Democratic' racism 1
Al-Ahram: 'Democratic' racism 2

Of course you can argue whether this qualifies as apartheid, but it is hard to deny the inequality between Jews and Arabs in Israel.

It has no more to do with apartheid than the boundary fences on the borders of most countries

This argument would only be valid if:
1. Israel recognized the right of Palestinians to have a state and would allow 'nation-building'.
2. The wall would have been build on the Green line, instead of cutting through Palestinian land.

Besides, the barrier/wall/fence is only part of the great open air prison that the Palestinian territories have become. Palestinians cannot even travel freely within their own 'country'.

only it is more justified since Israel is under constant terrorist attack

Please look up the number of Israeli citizens killed versus the number of Palestinians citizens killed. Then tell me who is being terrorized.

If Israel were interested in apartheid, it would not have allowed hundreds of thousands of Arabs to become citizens and to live all over the country

And yet there are millions of refugees who have not been allowed back by Israel and whose property has been confiscated. In contrast, Jews with no claim other than their bloodline are allowed to immigrate into Israel.

Here is some proof of the rampant racism against Arabs from reputable sources:

Human Rights Watch: Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools
Haaretz: JNF cannot discriminate against Arabs in allocating land rights
Al-Ahram: 'Democratic' racism 1
Al-Ahram: 'Democratic' racism 2

Of course you can argue whether this qualifies as apartheid, but it is hard to deny the inequality between Jews and Arabs in Israel.

It has no more to do with apartheid than the boundary fences on the borders of most countries

This argument would only be valid if:
1. Israel recognized the right of Palestinians to have a state and would allow 'nation-building'.
2. The wall would have been build on the Green line, instead of cutting through Palestinian land.

Besides, the barrier/wall/fence is only part of the great open air prison that the Palestinian territories have become. Palestinians cannot even travel freely within their own 'country'.

only it is more justified since Israel is under constant terrorist attack

Please look up the number of Israeli citizens killed versus the number of Palestinians citizens killed. Then tell me who is being terrorized.

If Israel were interested in apartheid, it would not have allowed hundreds of thousands of Arabs to become citizens and to live all over the country

And yet there are millions of refugees who have not been allowed back by Israel and whose property has been confiscated. In contrast, Jews with no claim other than their bloodline are allowed to immigrate into Israel.

...comes from Umberto Eco and I find it to be insightful. It is here.

I think than in Italy you should reconsider your policy...

--giandrea

That direction leads out of physics and into Reformed Sufiism

Thousands of Iraqis from the besieged town of Falluja have entered Baghdad in the last week. Graham Usher spoke to one of them

Salim Mubarak sits on a high chair in a small house in Baghdad's Amaria neighbourhood, surrounded by men and women bearing gifts. Dressed in a long grey gown, he is 61 years old and a merchant by trade. His long, leathery limbs and equine features exude nothing if not dignity. But "you cannot live in dignity without sacrifice," he says.

Mubarak is a refugee from Falluja. For four days the town was under siege and bombardment by the US marines: retribution spurred by the slaughter of four American security contractors at the hands of an outraged mob on 31 March. Doctors in Falluja estimate that some 600 Iraqis were killed and 1500 wounded in the assault. The Iraqi Red Crescent says 1,000 families (perhaps 6,000 people) have been forced to leave their homes and 60,000 have fled the city. Falluja has 200,000 people.

On 9 April the marines suspended their offensive, pending cease-fire talks with Iraqi fighters defending the city. Mubarak, with 19 members of his family, used the reprieve to escape. He left Falluja at 9am, arrived in Baghdad at 8pm, a journey that takes an hour by car. This is his story of the siege.

"My son is a doctor in a clinic in the centre of Falluja. He couldn't reach the main hospital -- it's on the other bank of the river, which is under American control. I tried to visit the clinic every day. It was risky, but I wanted to see my son. I saw a lot of injuries there. Many people had terrible wounds to their legs, as though a bomb exploded within them. I saw one whole family -- 24 members -- dead ..."

He wiped a hand the size of a fan across his face.

"I saw children and women whose bodies looked as though they had been through a meat-grinder ..."

The hand folds into a fist and he starts to cry. Uneasy, the men shift in their chairs. The women have left the room. We feel we are the bringers of bad tidings. He sobs for a minute, but then hauls himself back to his high chair, purging grief with rage and a torrent of questions, directed at us.

"Why do the Americans do this? Where is their humanity? They say they are after the resistance, so why bomb homes with women and children? There were very few fighters but the Americans fought us as though we are an army. They should be held internationally accountable for what they have done in Falluja. They said Saddam Hussein dug mass graves. There are mass graves in Falluja. What's the difference? They would drop leaflets from their helicopters telling us not to leave our homes, not to go onto the streets. But they were bombing homes!"

How did he manage to escape? "We heard the army had opened a road out of Falluja -- not from the Americans, from the mosques. We saw whole families leaving, so we followed them. We walked a dirt track, kicking up storms of dust. After I don't know how many kilometres we reached an American checkpoint: there were thousands there, maybe tens of thousands, in cars, on foot, on wagons. The Americans let everyone go, on condition that no one would return."

Does he think there can be a cease-fire?

"No one wants to die for nothing," he shrugs. "The cease-fire depends on whether the Americans will observe it. If they do, any Iraqi will accept it."

His son, Fouad, feels compelled to speak. "When we were leaving Falluja we saw truckloads of American soldiers going the other way. Why do you need troop reinforcements if there is going to be a cease-fire? I think the Americans are using the cease-fire to strengthen themselves, so they can occupy the town completely."

And what about the resistance? "If you see a young man sacrifice his life for his city, you respect him. Yesterday he was an ordinary man. Today," says Mubarak, searching for the right word, "today, he is something more than this."

And Americans? "They are occupiers."

... an egyptian governmental newspaper. Funny thing is, I work at the French version ( they have a daily in arabic, a weekly in english, and one in French...) since almost two months now :)

Nice newspaper, but not one I expected to find on Slashdot's main page!!! That's a fun coincidence!
(and no I didn't submit the article)

I'm tempted to just walk away from this; you are clearly too deeply programmed for me to make a dent with, but I've got a little time to kill before hitting the sack tonight, so I'll address the grossest of your points.

OK, just go and convince Osama bin Ladin that he should bend over for McDonalds and E! True Hollywood Stories with rational, logical arguments and I'll accept that war is pointless in the modern age.

What makes you think that Osama Bin Ladin had anything to do with 9-11?

Right. TIA doesn't stop the arms industry from existing. It does cut down on the fraction of the resources expended by American society in constructing and maintaining conventional armed forces, and on the number of Iraqs that we have to run at great cost to Iraq and the United States.

Well, I'm not entirely certain what you were trying to say here, but as I prefer not to penalize somebody simply because they happen to commit typos use poor grammar, (which everybody does from time to time), I'll just let it pass with the question. . . "What?"

I'm not qualified to argue about environmental trends. I don't think you are either. If I happen to be debating a climate scientist, I shall apologize. I do not deny the numerous negative effects of Western capitalism on humanity and the environment alike - but I do believe that these effects are counteracted by a whole raft of benefits to humanity and to the environment and that, as Western society becomes more and more affluent, negative effects will continue to be eliminated simply because we will start to be able to spend money on it.

I don't know what you are grounding this lovely 'belief' on, but as I am fairly well tuned into world developments, and as I have seen nothing which leads me to think that 'Technology will save us', I suspect your viewpoint is constructed largely from Wishful Thinking. And you are quite right, I am not a climate scientist. As such, I am forced to base my beliefs on the hundreds of reports from those who ARE qualified environmental scientists who point to the massive melt-back of glaciers all around the world, killer heat waves in Europe, ancient rivers like the Sava, Drava, Kupa and Danube drying up, continuing ozone destruction, ocean fish stocks vanishing, coral reefs dying off, dropping sperm counts, rising psychological birth defects, etc, etc, etc.

although poverty is still a terrible problem, the advent of Western industrialized society has greatly reduced its incidence and, statistically, made human lives better in a very fundamental way.

You and your ad hominems! Where do you come up with this stuff? I can show you my sources. Show me one which says that, "Statistically, poverty has been reduced by Western industrialized society and made better in a very fundamental way." Define better? If you know your CIA fact history, or the history of the IMF, you would also know that much of this 'better society' comes at the cost of many a flourishing democratic country which has been toppled by the West's ambition to destroy competition and beggar whole nations. --And that it remains 'better' only for a portion of Americans. I stand by my stats, thank you very much. --1 in 4, or about 9 million kids under the age of 10 go hungry every day in America. Look it up. Google will spit back a mountain of data confirming this.

Perhaps. Or you could say that the continual appearance of black spots will give them more than enough to deal with as it stands. Or you could say that the secret police could allow a wide enough margin of dissent to keep most of society bumbling happily along.

"Perhaps??" You haven't lived in a fascist country, have you? Like Iraq, China or one of the old Soviet bloc countries. Most black spots are fabrications manufactured by the power brokers in order that people like you will actually fight to give up, not just your rights,

> No, they just don't have their heads full of so much religious shit that they can't deal with reality.

That's right, every Jew thinks the idea of Israel being for Jews only is immoral, everyone in Israel shall have the same rights, regardless of nationality, religion or sex, etc. Oh wait, something's wrong with these links' titles ...

> "Isreal doesn't even have oil! ... "

" ... , but they do have matches", huh? Oh man, thanks, you just hit the right quote (by Ariel Sharon, I believe).

> So you admit they are stupid.

Yes they are, they didn't had a possibility nor money for a good european college, not even for a good school. The Jews aren't much brighter though.

> You shouldn't kill people because they are stupid.

Yes, you shall exploit them, am I right?

> You kill them because they are trying to kill you.

Do you realize, that this quote justifies Ukrainian nationalists who helped German Army to exterminate some thousands of Jews during Ukraine's occupation in WW2 ? And .. that's right, I wasn't talking about Palestinians, I was talking about millions of people, mostly in Ukraine and Rusiia who were killed, let starve, expelled, put in concentration camps during 20's - 40's, by orders of Jewish Communist Government. And then forgotten. I won't say these people were stupid, even if many of them couldn't read, knew no math and didn't play piano. They just weren't able to understand the principe "kill or be killed", ... before, and many of them also not after.

> The Israelis are very successful in hunting down and removing terrorists,

Which is not that hard, if you have well-trained forces and a couple of Apaches. Just bomb the approximate region and wait until the mob calms down. Dead civilians are not important.

> whereas the only thing mad palestinians is killing children in nightclubs and pizza restaurants.

You see, it's kinda hard to infiltrate a military base if you only have a bicycle, a pack of TNT on yourself and look like retarded arab. Nevertheless, whenever possible, Palestinians also attack military. If Isreal wants them to stop attacks against civilians, then just give the Palestinians enough money for proper weapons and training.

> How does this make Israel more likely to talk and sort out the whole mess, and less likely to kill terrorists (with some collatoral damage along the way)?

What would make Israel want to talk and sort out the whole mess anyway? Too bad they can't just collect them all and put them in a gas chamber - it's kind of 21st century and stuff...

> > will you be able to maintain your pride before God's face?
> No such thing as god. That's retro nonsense. There's just as much proof that the easter bunny exists.

What kind of proof would you require anyway? A big face in the sky? Or maybe a wonder or two? For easter bunny, go to supermarket and buy yourself one. The only evidence of God you can realize in this world is the faith in Him, which creates stable religion, which in turn creates stable moral norms, when it affects people over generations. People who lose the faith, begin to lose their moral and some of them begin to kill each other, because "it's normal".

> Such foul language - as befits one without a logical argument.

You right here - I'm sorry for saying that. As for "without logical argument", I will work o

You can't judge the Egyptian people for their government.

Besides, if #2 is the case, then would those in power allow the citizens to remove them from power?

Quite right. If you moved into my house and kicked me out and then said that some mythical spirit told you it was okay I don't think I'd be too impressed either.

This is slander, pure and simple, for two reasons. First off, no one `moved into' the region at all -- at the time of the foundation of Israel in 1948, the area which became Israel was 85% Jewish, and had been for centuries. Second, no one was `kicked out', either -- those Palestinians who chose to become citizens of the new state of Israel have all of the rights of any other Israeli citizen, and indeed there were 17 Palestinian members of Israel's parliament (the Knesset) last I checked. This is a marked contrast to the Arab states, almost all of which expelled their entire Jewish populations when Israel was founded.

And yet the Israelis manage to keep ahead on the death score.

More slander. Even Arafat himself now admits that the lurid claims of massacres by the Israelis which he and the European press made earlier this year were simply not true. At Jenin, for example, only 53 died, by Arafat's own numbers, and almost all of those were combatants. Hamas' report of the fighting at Jenin, as told to the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram confirms that those who were killed by the Israelis were combatants who died in battle.

Hardly. Radical Muslims/Christian/Jews etc can all away and fuck themselves. Spending your life trying to act like characters in a badly-written fairy story is not going to get my sympathy any time soon. However, acting in such a way as to appease on such retarded group (Israelis) is bound to stir up trouble with their equally retarded foes (Palestinians). And for what? So that they can go on deluding themselves? Why bother?

What nonsense. Only one side is making claims based on religious or racial rights here, the Arabs, who teach (in the schools of the PA and all Arab nations) that Jews are subhuman and should be destroyed. In contrast, Israel is a modern democracy with equal rights for all races and religions, which is trying to defend itself against maniacal attackers who slaughter civilians to acheive their ends.

The rest of your post dissolves into even more incoherent claims. You'll have to forgive me if I don't take such slander too seriously.

To put one thing staight right away, I don't put the blame for the conflict on the Israel alone. Both sides are about equally resonsible.

In what sense? Is the police officer who responds to a crime `as responsible' for the crime as the criminal who he responds to?

You seem to think that after the Oslo agreement pulled out of palestinian areas, this is not the case. They left a few areas they chose alone, in yet other areas they have started israeli settlements, presumedly to have a "right" to that land if there ever is international intervention

This is simply untrue. fully 98% of the West Bank has been under full PA control since Oslo. The remaining 2% are pre-existing settlements which Israel has indicated a willingness to hand over to PA control if the PA would provide police protection for the citizenship. In the current climate, where the PA police forces are the ones attacking the settlements, this is not feasible. Or are you arguing that the Palestinians have a right to ban Jews from living in their territory? In South Africa this was practiced against blacks and was called apartheid. In Germany, this was called Judenrein. Why would this be okay for the Palestinians? And do I need to remind you that in marked contrast to this Palestinians who live in Israel proper have all of the rights of Israeli citizens? Indeed, the last time I checked there were 17 Palestinian Arab members of the Israeli parliament (the Knesset).

Arafat is a known previous terrorist leader snd have made statements he has later withdrawn.

Arafat is the leader of the al-Aqsa brigades, Fatah, and Tanzim, the three groups responsible for the vast majority of the murder-suicide bombings committed over the last two years. He still to this day repeatedly calls for such bombings when speaking in Arabic, even while making overtures to the west in English.

Ariel Sharon has made similar statements about getting rid of the palestinian people.

Nonsense. Provide any credible cite for this claim.

Palestinian terrorists kill israeli civilians, Israel's soldiers kill palestinian civilians

The difference is that while Palestinians terrorists go out of their way to maximize civilian casualties, the Israeli army has gone way out of their way to avoid civilian casualties, such as fighting house-by-house instead of fighting from the air. In addition, despite wild claims made by the Palestinians earlier, even Arafat himself, in his official report of the fighting at Jenin confirms that only 53 Palestinians were killed in total in the fighting there, and all but one or two were combatants. Hamas, in their account of the fighting at Jenin confirms that those Palestinians who died there were combatants who died in battle.

Some palestinians believe that Allah has given them the right to kill for their land.

Yes. Arafat himself says this often.

Some Jews believe that God has given them a right to kill for their land.

If any Jews did believe this, they would be stopped by their own government -- or haven't you noticed the complete lack of terrorist attacks by Israelis against Palestinians? The fact is that Israel is fighting to avoid being the victim of genocide, and as much as you Europeans may relish the idea of abandoning the Jews to that fate for the second time in less than a century, they're not going to let that happen.

The only major difference is that one side has guns, planes and helicopters. The other side has a lot of people willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe is right

No, the major difference is that one side is a free democracy fighting for it's right to peacably coexist with its neighbors, while the other side is a totalitarian dictatorship fighting to destroy its neighbors.

The two biggest problems to solve the conflict is that it's gone on for so long that there are people on both sides that would rather see their own people continue suffering than to make peace with their enemies

This is simply slander. The Israelis have again and again offered the Palestinians all of their demands (most recently in 2000), only to have the Palestinians come back with a new round of demands and a new wave of attacks on civilians.

The fact is, Palestinian school textbooks show Palestine as encompassing all of what is now Israel, and speak of Jews as `pigs and monkeys' who must be slaughtered. Palestinian leaders (including Arafat) repeatedly promise their own people the whole region and the destruction of Israel. The matter thus comes down to a simple choice: If the Palestinians stop the murder-suicide bombings, Israel will leave them alone, and there will be peace. If Israel stops defending itself, the Palestinians will commit genocide, and you Europeans won't care. Which do you think is the road to peace?

first off TNC is a conservative publication.

I'm not sure what this `TNC' you refer to is, but if you are arguing that The New Republic (TNR) is a `conservative' publication, you don't even pass the laugh test. They hang way to the left of mainstream on any issue you could care to name.

we have trained and/or armed EVERY enemy we have faught since WW2.

I hope you don't expect readers of this thread to take this on assertion. Perhaps you can back this claim up with something resembling a credible cite?

al qaida would not exist if not for the cia.

Again, this is simply false, as many people, including the author of the piece I link to above, have pointed out. If you want to convince us otherwise, you'd better have a cite...

of course, repeat the party line, they attacked us because we're free, they attacked us because we're free.

What you call the `party line' here is what they themselves are saying. We are facing an enemy who talks about the `tragedy of Andalusia' (the reconquest of spain in 1492) as a motive for his attacks, and you think some minor foreign policy changes we make 600 years later are going to change his mind? Really?

and yes they are planning further attacks. you want to know how to stop them, it easy. stop giving military aid to isreal, pull out of saudi arabia(we've already started this), and now pull out of afghanistan.

First off, we seem to be on a very good track as far as preventing future attacks is concerned. Second, are you really suggesting that we should be making foreign policy decisions based not on what we believe is right but on what will appease madmen like bin Laden? Really?

boo fucking hoo 3000 people died

Ah, so now your true feelings on the matter come out. OK.

how many palestinians died in the occupation this year?

Not very many, in fact, at least according to Arafat's own numbers, which also confirm that almost all those who have died have been combatants. In the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram, a spokesman for Hamas confirms that almost all those killed were combatants. This doesn't count, of course the several dozen lynched by Arafat's own security services.

how many columbians died because of the american puppet govt.?

First off, it's Colombians, unless you are suggesting that there have been deaths at Columbia University. Second, do you have any credible cite to back up this claim? Sure seems to me like the violence in Colombia has much more to do with the vicious marxist rebels, but perhaps you can argue otherwise?

how many venezuelans almost died because of a CIA instigated coup.

Poppycock. Provide one shred of credible evidence linking the CIA to the abortive coup (or even suggesting that any significant number of people died!)

how many vietnamese nationalist died defending thier country?

Actually let's look at who was `defending' the country and who it needed defense against, shall we? You are, I hope, aware that more Vietnamese were murdered by Ho Chi Minh's government in the first three years of `peace' following the war than had died in the entire twenty-five years of fighting leading up to that point? No, the tragedy of Vietnam is not that we helped the South Vietnamese defend themselves against a brutal invader. The tragedy is that the arrogance of JFK and LBJ led them to not make a strong case for why the war was just, leading to our abandoning our allies to their fate.

how many hondurans, salvadoreans, afghans, serbs, guatamalans, grenadans, panamanians, and americans have died from the actions of the US govt?

How many? Are you arguing that the US was wrong in these conflicts? On what grounds?

Even a FEW 'incidences' of wholesale slaughter are WRONG and should NEVER happen.

But you haven't provided a credible cite for even one such incidence. And if you're about to say `Jenin', I would remind you that even Arafat's official report of what happened at Jenin only claims that 56 Palestinians died, and acknowledges that those killed were combatants. Hamas' account of Jenin, as told to the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram similarly confirms that Jenin was a battle, not a massacre, and that those killed were combatants, and were killed in battle.

When even one solider starts taking pleasure in killing innocent civilians, then something is wrong.

Fine, but as far as I can tell the only ones celebrating the murder of civilians are on the Palestinian side, and they are the leaders of the Palestinian side, to boot.

yeah, well i'm a little disappointed by the US government not giving a shit about the innocent civilians slaughtered in jenin, [hrw.org] so we'll call it even.

How many times are you going to repeat this lie? Even Arafat's own official report of the fighting at Jenin only claims 56 Palestinians died, and admits that almost all of them were combatants. Hamas' account of the battle, as reported by the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram confirms that those killed were combatants, who died in battle.

Or perhaps you know something that Arafat and Hamas do not? Care to share with us?