Sicilian Suspension Bridge to Go Ahead

SpanningTheGap writes "According to the BBC, Italy plans on building a suspension bridge connecting the Italian mainland with the island of Sicily. The bridge will be five kilometers long and its central span will be over three kilometers long, easily breaking the old record length for a suspension bridge. The artist's conception image of the monster is a sight to see. Another article with more info can be found here." There's a website with assorted technical info about the design.

Comments

will it bridge?

[miguel_at_menino.com]

Yes, but will it make forwarding decisions based on MAC addresses?

Re:will it bridge?

[Alan Partridge]

Sicily needs a bridge to the mainland like New York needs another 'plane crash. What's next, a tunnel to Sardinia?

This Bridge of Ours

[gspeare]

Wow, I hadn't realized that they were so low on places to dump bodies that they needed a bridge to drop them off of...

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Taco, my god(s) can kick your god(s) ass.

And as for when they'll wake up to the danger of Islam, hopefully the same time the wake up to the danger of judaism and Christianity and all the other idiocies out there.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh great! Let's keep the ignorant and insulting stereotypes alive! What an idiot!

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

Which is all very well, except that Christians and Jews aren't flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up in the children's areas of restaurants.

Now, I'm not a Muslim, and I won't pretend to be able to tell you whether such actions are `true Islam' or not, but they are being done by people who call themselves Muslims, and not by people who claim to belong to other religions.

I have to say that I've also been a little disappointed by the failure of the Islamic community here in the US to condemn such actions...

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[saviorsloth]

"Which is all very well, except that Christians and Jews aren't flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up in the children's areas of restaurants."
here's the deal, now repeat after me.... PEOPLE kill people. seriously. just because our current crop of killers happen to be muslim doesn't mean anything about it compared to other religions. througout history, christians have massacred people in *FAR* greater numbers than Muslims have ever done. no muslim ever said "kill them all and let God sort them out." (pope urban vi, on what the crusaders should do when they took constantinople). and the holocaust? all the christians not only the ones in germany slaughtering the jews, but the rest of the world quietly saying "see no evil hear no evil," including the catholic church.
and the bombers in israel? why don't you find something out about them before you spout your mouth off, because the majority of them are motiviated by a desire for freedom in their homeland, not religion. how about the 18 year old not particularly religious honor student who blew herself up?

"I have to say that I've also been a little disappointed by the failure of the Islamic community here in the US to condemn such actions..."

yeah, well i'm a little disappointed by the US government not giving a shit about the innocent civilians slaughtered in jenin, so we'll call it even.

and before anyone goes off on a "The Qur'an says fight them all etc etc" rant, allow me to point out that all fighting sanctioned in the qur'an is of a purely defensive nature, with well defined limits. 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." If you want I could find the links for the limits (not harming civilians etc.) but i don't think it is necessary
(for the record, IAAM (I am a Muslim))

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[AoT]

you're right, the christians and the jews just drop bomb and shoot little kids. i am very disapointed in the christian and jewish communities failure to condemn these actions.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid AC troll.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

With due respect, while I welcome you to provide cites of anything being done by Christians or Jews that approaches the horror of the attacks of September 11 or of the murder-suicide bombings, the fact remains that unlike such actions you may point to, those flying planes into buildings and sending young children to blow themselves up in the hopes of taking civilians with them state explicitly that they are doing so in the name of Islam, and as called for by Islam.

I would certainly welcome a statement from Islamic leaders that the people committing these horrible acts do not, in fact, correctly understand what Islam calls for. Unfortunately, no such statement has emerged from the Arab world -- indeed, many, many statements in support of such an interpretation of Islam have been made.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

yeah, well i'm a little disappointed by the US government not giving a shit about the innocent civilians slaughtered in jenin, [hrw.org] so we'll call it even.

How many times are you going to repeat this lie? Even Arafat's own official report of the fighting at Jenin only claims 56 Palestinians died, and admits that almost all of them were combatants. Hamas' account of the battle, as reported by the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram confirms that those killed were combatants, who died in battle.

Or perhaps you know something that Arafat and Hamas do not? Care to share with us?

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

I welcome you to provide cites for any of the claims you make in your first paragraph, but I would remind you that while you assure us that `all christians are responsible for the holocaust' (truly an amazing claim, since Hitler himself stated destroying and replacing Christianity in Germany as one of his goals), I must ask you how much more culpable, then, are the Arab leaders who allied themselves with Hitler?

and before anyone goes off on a "The Qur'an says fight them all etc etc" rant, allow me to point out that all fighting sanctioned in the qur'an is of a purely defensive nature, with well defined limits. 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." If you want I could find the links for the limits (not harming civilians etc.) but i don't think it is necessary

I'm not sure how you want us to believe this claim when you make it two paragraphs after claiming that murder-suicide bombings are justified, but let's take it at face value. What then do you say to the constant stream of Islamic leaders in the Arab world telling us that attacks on civilians in Israel (and in many cases the US !) are a holy duty, and those who make them are martyrs? I'm happy to hear that you disagree with this interpretation, but surely you do not claim that this is not a very common interpretation of the Quran?

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

Oh, and one more point. You say:

and the bombers in israel? why don't you find something out about them before you spout your mouth off, because the majority of them are motiviated by a desire for freedom in their homeland,

How should we believe this when 98% of the PA areas have not been occupied at all since Oslo, and Israel has placed offer after offer on the table offering complete independence for the PA areas in exchange only for an end to the suicide bombings, only to have these offers refused by Arafat?

Is it not actually the case that these poor deluded suicide bombers are acting because Arafat convinces them that they have a chance to destroy all of Israel and take it for themselves?

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wasting your breath; some people just want to play devils advocate.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[AoT]

ok so 19 muslim men had the gall to kill themsleves and take 2000-3000 people with them as well as 2 buildings. the only reason americans find this so damn evil is because it happened to us. what about the tens of thousands of people that have died in dictatorial regimes suported by the US. or the thousands of US citizens that have been killed by the government. why doesnt pat buchanan condemn the war in afghanistan, it kills children?

and as for muslim(there is no such word as islamic) leaders not condemning it, well politics are politics. I'm certainly not trying to be an apologist for the attacks i'm just pointing out that we are just as bad.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

k so 19 muslim men had the gall to kill themsleves and take 2000-3000 people with them as well as 2 buildings. the only reason americans find this so damn evil is because it happened to us. ... why doesnt pat buchanan condemn the war in afghanistan, it kills children?

I'm not sure how Mr. Buchanan enters into this discussion at all, but as to the difference between the attacks of September 11 and our response to those actions, well, let's see: while Mr. Bin Laden's followers went out of their way to maximize civilian targets while striking at a civilian target, we have gone out of our way, including putting American soldiers on the ground in harm's way, to strike only military targets and to avoid hitting civilians. You don't see any difference?

and as for muslim(there is no such word as islamic) leaders not condemning it, well politics are politics. I'm certainly not trying to be an apologist for the attacks i'm just pointing out that we are just as bad.

Of course we are not `just as bad'. Where do you get this idea?

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[Anonymous Coward]

What a complete crock! Look at the towers -- nothing but the Golden Gate Bridge painted white.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[AoT]

first off we are not "just as bad" in a cultural sense. only in a death sense. second buchanan is the closes ideolog to bin laden..

yes i do seee a difference. america(tm) pushes the buttons for our bombs and the muslims have to sacrifice accuale people.

PS i dont think that any ideology or country that convinces people to die and kill for it is "right" in any true sense of the word.
(nothing personal) PPS i hope that you will stop the use of the word islamist or islamic, because anyone who believes in islam is muslim.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[AoT]

i used pat buchanan as an example of christian fundamentalism.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

first off we are not "just as bad" in a cultural sense. only in a death sense.

What does this mean? Is killing an enemy soldier in war because he is trying to kill you `just as bad' as killing thousands of enemy civilians because you believe their culture is the `great satan'? No, of course not. We are not in any way `as bad' as them. Where do you get this?

second buchanan is the closes ideolog to bin laden..

How do you figure? Unless your position is that `wanting to restrict immigration and wanting to kill thousands of civilians are just the same, man', this doesn't float at all. I'm not that fond of Mr. Buchanan's views on a number of subjects, but to compare him to Bin Laden is simply nonsense.

Now, if we take your words literally, and say `yes, Mr. Buchanan is the closest we come to Bin Laden, and he's not even remotely close to him', then you've made my point exactly

yes i do seee a difference. america(tm) pushes the buttons for our bombs and the muslims have to sacrifice accuale people.

If that's the only difference you see between attacking enemy soldiers who are trying to kill you and blowing yourself up in the children's area of a restaurant, then you, sir, are a moral midget.

i dont think that any ideology or country that convinces people to die and kill for it is "right" in any true sense of the word.

So you really see no difference between killing someone in self defense when they are trying to kill you, as we are doing and killing civilians for the `crime' of being from the wrong culture, as Mr. Bin Laden advocates?

i hope that you will stop the use of the word islamist or islamic, because anyone who believes in islam is muslim.

That's not what dictionary.com says.

Re:This Bridge of Ours

[neocon]

Then you're somewhat confused as to who Mr. Buchanan is. But see my response to your other post for more on this.

have to wonder

[JeanBaptiste]

how this will affect the culture of both areas. I know throughout history that small gap of water served as enough of a barrier to make sicily a distinct separate culture, is this bridge an end to that? or is this already the case due to other transportation?

Re:have to wonder

[mekkab]

Sometimes its nice to have pockets of the world that are not easily accessible. That way they maintain their distinct cultural nuances and avoid societal homogenization.

A good example is the hawaiian island of Kaua'i.
There have been some comical failed attempts to make the main highway (Kuhio Hwy, but it changes names) go all the way around the island (I think the earth moving machines are still stuck in the swamps to this day).
Since it never happened there are still out of the way places. Never mind that it isn't a huge gap, and that driving from one extreme corner of the island to the other takes less time than it does to drive from New York to D.C. (2 hours as compared to 4-5 (depends on how fast you drive!))
that little element of inaccesibility and that lack of convenience tends to preserve the outer corners.

But I don't think there will be any threat to sicilian culture. With the way italians drive, the mere threat of an accident on that bridge will stop most people in there tracks.

-P.S.- don't bug me on the italian digs. I'm full blooded and yes I've been there.

Re:have to wonder

[3.5 stripes]

It shouldn't make that much difference, the city I work in (a whole ten miles down the road from where I live) has it's own dialect... very different from the one where I live, the fact that's it's only ten miles apart hasn't made a bit of difference in the last 2000 plus years.. If anything were to change the culture, it would be popular media... not some outsiders driving across a bridge.

Re:have to wonder

[boomer_rehfield]

If the mere threat of an accident stopped an Italian from driving the way they do, then the world would collapse on itself. Remember that they drive the same way on the Amalfi coast as well. (think of all the cliffs in the james bond movies) The bridge is nothing.....

Re:have to wonder

[mekkab]

I'm sorry, I must have written that without any blood flowing to my brain!

Chunnel

[hagardtroll]

If this is so controverial, Why don't they just build a chunnel instead?

Seemed to work for the English Channel.

Re:Chunnel

[Fantanicity]

The english channel is more stable than the Med. See 20 Years of Seismicity in the Mediterranean - 1977 - 1997 USGS

Re:Chunnel

[bunyip]

Not sure, it's not like the water is too deep:

http://www.ifm.uni-hamburg.de/~wwwrs/publication s/ rubino/fig8.html

Maybe it's the rock. The Chunnel was bored through chalk.

Also, the Chunnel is a train tunnel, with cars and trucks put in large wagons to take them through. Cars and trucks driving through a long tunnel are too fire prone (remember the tunnel under Mt. Blanc?).

Any civil engineers out there have a good explanation

Re:Chunnel

[arri]

Simple: it is a seismic area (terrible earthquake in Messina in 1901 inclusive of tsunami) with the fault ine running right between Sicily and the mainland. The currents are particularly strong which make a "suspended tunnel" (one of the original designs) also impossible. Apparently the only design with a sporting chance to work is a suspension bridge.

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

Um.

It is controversial because it is expensive. No other reason. The complaint of those who are controversing about this is that the public funds could be put to better use.

Wouldn't a chunnel be even more expensive? You're having to dig through solid rock underwater instead of just building something.

Re:Chunnel

[delphi125]

Well trolled, troll!

I bought shares in eurotunnel way back when (and should have sold them when they were 3 times their initial price!) because I wanted to see the link to the UK happen (I'm British but born abroad [cue jokes]). The main reason they built a tunnel is because the English Channel is a VERY busy shipping lane. Now admittedly a 60 metre high suspension bridge should let most ships under it, but why bother?

In my opinion either a tunnel or a suspension bridge is overkill (or overspend, at least). Why not go with floating pontoon style bridges? Remember that although the earth may be more volatile in this part of the world, the Mediterranean harldy has tides and unlike the Channel is protected from the Atlantic storms.

Finally if you had bothered to read to the end of the article, the greens are against not because it would be ugly, but simple because the money could be better spent on a clean water supply for all the local population.

It seems to me Berlusconi wants a big memorial to his greatness!

Re:Chunnel

[Alan Partridge]

I'd love to see Etna go off and flood a tunnel with magma - that'd make for an interesting trip. This is madness Etna is VERY active and there are Great White sharks in that water! (no, really - I was in Malta once when some fisherman brought one in).

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

"Seemed to work for the English Channel."

Ohh... it fucking works alright, apart from a smuggling route and a way for the French to feed electricity to London (though their laws prevent the reverse) I wonder if it'll ever be commercial successful on a legitimate basis.

Re:Chunnel

[zio pera]

You *definitively* don't want to dig a chunnel near the most active volcano in europe (etna), do you ?

Re:Chunnel

[Jeff DeMaagd]

"Finally if you had bothered to read to the end of the article, the greens are against not because it would be ugly, but simple because the money could be better spent on a clean water supply for all the local population."

I wonder if their argument is a bit backwards. The situation in Sicily might be caused by the fact that they have no good access to the mainland. With easier access both ways, it might result in changes to the island social climate such that the problem will end up being solved as a byproduct.

In some ways, "build it and they will come" might actually work. Much sillier things have happened.

I will admit that the bridge's price tag is HUGE. Such a move has a lot of risk and should be considered with all due care.

Re:Chunnel

[Captain Large Face]

Since the Channel Tunnel was 31 miles long, it seems a suspension bridge was not really a valid option.

I imagine a tunnel is a lot more expensive to construct than a bridge, so it makes sense that if a bridge is a viable option, then that is the one the project engineers should take.

Re:Chunnel

[mikerich]

Fortunately Messina is about 90km from Etna and faces the less active side of Etna.

It's in a seismically active area, but suspension bridges are pretty good at surviving 'quakes. The Japanese have enormous experience of building huge bridges and San Francisco has two of the most beautiful suspension bridges in the World, both of which are in fine shape.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Chunnel

[SerpentMage]

While I tend to agree with the idea of a floating bridge it makes it really hard for navy ships to go through the bridge.

BTW reading the article that was one of the requirements that navy ships could still pass.

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody mod this up

Re:Chunnel

[delphi125]

When the chunnel was being built, there were a whole bundle of suggestions. They included having a short bridge or tunnel section in the middle somewhere.

In Holland, there are huge 'bridges' in both Zeeland and the IJsselmeer. I use quotes because some of these are actually dikes, in particular the Afsluitdijk which crosses from North Holland to Friesland. These all still have locks or what have you which allow ships to pass.

Also Sicily is a bit easier to sail around than Great Britain, as the Vikings, Spanish and Nazis will attest. Err not that they all went round Sicily :)

Re:Chunnel

[OwnedByTwoCats]

SF's Bridges? The Golden Gate, sure. But the Bay Bridge is not exactly "in fine shape"; they were talking about replacing it, 'cause maintenance would be so much.

Re:Chunnel

[elefantstn]

I thought the exact same thing when I read that. The bridge has the potential to vastly improve the Sicilian economy, which would long-term do more to help it than what they propose.

Of course, if their economy improves, that would mean that someone was making a profit, which as we all know is possible only through the exploitation of the weak and defenseless.

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's in a seismically active area, but suspension bridges are pretty good at surviving 'quakes. The Japanese have enormous experience of building huge bridges and San Francisco has two of the most beautiful suspension bridges in the World, both of which are in fine shape.

You may recall that the Oakland Bay Bridge had a large section of its upper roadway collapse onto the lower roadway during the last big Bay Area quake; not exactly 'in fine shape'.

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

That price tag isn't HUGE, its really reasonable. Just ask any bostonian what a huge price tag for a public works project is and they'll be able to tell you. :)

-Greg

Re:Chunnel

[boomer_rehfield]

I don't know. I lived on the mainland for years and we were told not to drink the well water because of arsenic. Now we were around Naples, but this situation wasn't just in our location. Remember here that there are other Italian islands as well. I don't think that Sicily is any worse off than anyone else, and maybe not any worse off than anyone on the mainland. I'd have to think that the money could be better spent 1000 different ways, although it would be pretty cool to have a bridge over the gap.

Re:Chunnel

[elefantstn]

1) Sicily is much worse off than the rest of Italy -- poverty increases exponentially as you move further down the peninsula, and it's at its worst in Sicily.

2) Your sig: It should be "Carpe Canem."

Re:Chunnel

[boomer_rehfield]

Heh...thanks for the tip on the sig.. ; ) Point taken. I've been all over northern Italy, Rome and Naples and have only been to Sicily maybe twice, but it sounds right. I'm not sure I quite meant that there was no way that they were worse off. The point I was trying to make is that even on the mainland poverty situations are bad and that if it's even the same on Sicily, then I'm not sure the money shouldn't be spent another way....

Re:Chunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

- Finally if you had bothered to read to the end of the article, the greens are against not because it would be ugly, but simple because the money could be better spent on a clean water supply for all the local population.

Lack of water in Sicily is due to the involvement of the Mafia. Sicily is one of ours (I'm Italian) most beautiful touristic attractions; there's an huge amount of money there, but too bad it's continuously flowing from a wrong hand to another wrong hand. I could agree that the bridge will be horrible, but if someone thinks that by not building it the Sicilian population would have more clean water, he is insane, or maybe just a little misinformed on how things really work in Italy.

Re:Chunnel

[daeley]

Shouldn't that be seize the dog? :)

Re:Chunnel

[boomer_rehfield]

*sihg* ; P

Re:Chunnel

[bsane]

They're only replacing the Oakland side (looks like an erector set) not the SF side which is a suspension bridge. It's the Oakland side which failed in the last earthquake, and I would guess thats part of the reason it will be replaced with a suspension bridge.

but how much

[virve]

The bridge is going to be 5 km long. How many kilometers will they be paying for? 10? 15 km? I take that the EU will contribute so one never know about the costs.

Re:but how much

[DrVxD]

> I take that the EU will contribute
By 'EU' you mean (amongt others) me, don't you? Yep. Even though I've never been to (nor am I likely to go to) Sicily, I'll be paying for it.

Re:but how much

[dtosti]

EU contributions are only for developing local economy (especially small and medium enterprises), not great public buildings.

Re:but how much

[DrVxD]

> EU contributions are only for developing local economy (especially small and medium enterprises), not great public buildings
Of course. I believe everything that politicians tell me. After all, if they weren't honest, they couldn't be in politics, could they?

Re:but how much

[dtosti]

oh boy, I don't believe politicians at all. I worked with EU for some time and I know them and the european legislation. Bureaucrats are different from politicians, you know. :)

Not a great plan

[PhysicsGenius]

The Mediterranian Sea is prone to earthquakes. Competent engineers don't build suspension bridges in earthquake zones.

Re:Not a great plan

[Anonymous Coward]

and what do you call the Golden Gate in San Francisco? Seems to have been there since 1937 according to that records page....

Re:Not a great plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, Golden Gate?

Re:Not a great plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh you mean like those in San Francisco and Japan??? They have all held up quite well...

Re:Not a great plan

[Yokaze]

Not that I'm qualified enough to challenge your statement, but what kind of bridges does one build then?

And what drove those incompetent blokes to built the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco (1,280m span), or the Rainbow Bridge in Tokyo.
Not to mention the largest one Akashi Kaikyo (1,990m span) which is mentioned in the submission (follow the link "old record").

Re:Not a great plan

[cmdr_beeftaco]

Suspension bridges hold up better than any other type of bridge which is why are found all over the west coast and in Japan. They say the Golden Gate Bridge swayed up to 8 feet during the 7.1 Loma Prieta earthquake and was well within it's design tolerances. The weakest part of the bridge are the approaches which are cantilevered. Those sections are being retrofitted right now a cost of several hundred million dollars so that they can withstand an 8.0 earthquake.

Re:Not a great plan

[DrVxD]

> Suspension bridges hold up better than any other type of bridge
Can you say Tacoma Narrows?
I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your bridge down...

Re:Not a great plan

[bsane]

I don't have the references handy, but the Tacoma Narrows bridge failed for a specific reason. IIRC it had to do with the ratio of the deck height to width. When built to certain unfortunate ratios a bridge will create vortices of wind that equal its resonance frequency. When this happens the bridge is gauranteed to fail sooner or later. It's actually a fairly recent discovery (60s-80s?), and there were quite a few bridges that failed prior to Tacoma Narrows in the same manner. Its really only luck that save bridges like the Golden Gate from being built with the same fatal flaw.

How does that work?

[Subaiku]

I was in Sicily not long ago and this seemed to be the controvertial issue. However, I was under the impression that a suspension bridge this long couldnt be built, being over 1km longer then the current longest span. What technology are they using that even makes this possible? Must have some bitchin ass suspension cables :-P

Re:How does that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

they had an interesting show on the Discovery (or TLC i cant remeber) about major engineering projects

and it seems possible from their point of view.

Re:How does that work?

[logicnazi]

You can make one as long as you want if you put enough towers in place. Is the longest span of this bridge really +1km the last longest span?

Huge engineering feat..

[ldopa1]

This seems to me to be one of the next modern wonders of the word. I think it'll rank up there with the artifical island in Japan that houses the new airport and the twin towers in Malaysia..

Besides that, I wonder how many cars a day it'll hold, and how bad it'll be if some of the crazy Italian drivers get into a good sized accident. If you every been to Rome, you know what I'm talking about.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Zen Mastuh]

and how bad it'll be if some of the crazy Italian drivers get into a good sized accident. If you every been to Rome, you know what I'm talking about.

Their driving sure does appear crazy to Americans--I should know, having lived in Italy. I saw one accident in five months. They drive faster and more agressively than Americans, but they also drive more competently. Driving is a right in America, but a privilege in Europe. Europeans who can not drive competently are not given licenses.

That said, I think this bridge will face more danger from seismic and terrorist [le rosse, etc...] activity than commuters.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[YanceyAI]

according to the second article here:

Current plans call for the bridge to carry eight traffic lanes, four service lanes and two rail lines. It will have a capacity of about 100,000 cars and trucks and 200 trains a day.

The real concern might be: What happens during a bad derailing?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[rafelbev]

Mentioning something like Brigate Rosse is a blow below the belt. What a load of FUD. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Sorry, but I had to say it.

I personaly think that it will generate an economic boom in the region, which was very much needed indeed.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[CrosseyedPainless]

Every (American) state driving manual I've ever seen states explicitly: Driving is a privilege, not a right. That doesn't seem to make the bad drivers any better, though.

That being said, not all American drivers are as bad as you say. They span a continuum, from Michigan (superb) to New Mexico (horrid).

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"Driving is a right in America, but a privilege in Europe. Europeans who can not drive competently are not given licenses."

I live in Canada and every time I go to the USA I am shocked at the driving. This is mainly in New York and Michigan states. I see more stomach-churning driving there in a day than I do in a decade in Canada. This is not exaggeration. And the rudeness ... oh the rudeness of those drivers. It makes my blood boil.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"That being said, not all American drivers are as bad as you say. They span a continuum, from Michigan (superb) to New Mexico (horrid)."

One thing I noticed about American roads (I am from Canada) is that the police enforcement of speed limits is much more thorough than North of the border. Does it span a similar spectrum as the driving skill? Typically on Canadian highways that I have driven on you drive 20-40% above the speed limit as a rule. Once you get 60% above it the cops might come after you if you happen to pass one (which is atypical, except on holiday weekends when they are out in force.)

Also the laws in some US states (NY) that double traffic fines in construction zones, are IMHO, a good idea and I have never seen such things in Canada.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[ocbwilg]

I live in Canada and every time I go to the USA I am shocked at the driving. This is mainly in New York and Michigan states. I see more stomach-churning driving there in a day than I do in a decade in Canada.

I don't doubt it. I grew up in Indianapolis, and I now live in Columbus, Ohio and on every trip I've ever made towards the east coast (Philadelphia, NYC, Boston) the driving has been frighteningly bad. They also tend to be incredibly rude too. Of course, I think that most people in the midwest can't drive to save their lives either...

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Trinn]

Well, given that it says two rail lanes, I would assume that it means light rail transit, moving at at most 30-40mph (not sure of that in kph), with little chance of derailing due to the small size of cars/trains.

Just my 10bc

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[ComaVN]

The train falls off the bridge and into the water? How is this different from any other railway bridge?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"Of course, I think that most people in the midwest can't drive to save their lives either..."

Most every country as its share of bad drivers, I think. I have heard of some true madness from driving test examiners (in Canada) about old ladies who literally drove down the wrong side of the driveway but I have never seen such a spectacle.

Perhaps it is that both the USA and Canada have very well developed road systems that were designed for big cars. The roads are wide, smooth, well marked with lines, barriers, traffic lights, crosswalks, and well patrolled by cops. All of these measures lower the threshold for driving skills and thus stupider and stupider drivers can make forays onto the streets.

If you look at a country like Trinidad (where I vacationed once) you have to drive along narrow mountain passes at night and honk your horn as you are coming around blind corners so you don't bump into a car going the other way since the road is only 1.5 lanes wide and sometimes chunks of it crumble and fall into the sea or get blocked by falling debris from the cliffside. The driving skill threshold is much higher there and probably is similarly high in Europe because of the small congested streets that were not really designed for cars. In those cases it is about natural selection because the stupidest drivers will get into accidents and kill themselves or at least drive their car repair and insurance costs so high that they can't afford it.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[ColdGrits]

"I think it'll rank up there with the artifical island in Japan that houses the new airport"

Ummm, don't you mean Hong Kong, not Japan?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Indy right now and the drivers here all suck. Part of the problem is that there's no other way to get around efficiently, so everyone has to drive. From my experience the best drivers in the midwest at least seem to come from Chicago or that area. The only problem is when you through some crazy Hoosier in there and they don't know what to do.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Peyna]

They might call it a privilege, but it is pretty much treated as a right. It is VERY easy to obtain a driver's license in the US, especially when an irresponsible 16 year old can get a license, or a blind 70 year old can.

Also, many people drive unlicensed, and serious moving violations don't do much to keep people off roads (i.e. repeat drunk drivers)

I realize many 16 year olds are responsible, but I was once a crazy 16 year old who would frequently try to find out what the governor was set to on every car his family owned, and have racked up about $1000 worth of tickets in the past 4 years of driving (but no accidents!).

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Bios_Hakr]

In America, you study a book and take a written exam and a driving test to get a license. In Italy, you attend a year of driving school where you learn a LOT about cars and how to drive them. The school costs about $2000 which can be overwhelming when you consider the avreage Italian makes less than $25000/year, and pays about 35% income tax in addition to a 20% sales tax on all consumer items.

As a 25yo American in Italy, I knew a lot of people my age who were not able to afford a car, much less a license. On top of that, gas was about $4/gallon, maybe more. In America, driving is really a right, even if the book referes to it as a privelege.

Another good thing in Italy is that the older population does not drive. This gets rid of a good percentage of the people who should not be on the road in the first place.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[jasoncart]

http://www.airport-technology.com/projects/kansai/

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[ShavenYak]

One thing I noticed about American roads (I am from Canada) is that the police enforcement of speed limits is much more thorough than North of the border. Does it span a similar spectrum as the driving skill? Typically on Canadian highways that I have driven on you drive 20-40% above the speed limit as a rule.

The one time I was in Toronto, I noticed that people drove a lot closer to the speed limits than they do 'back home'. Of course, my 'back home' is Alabama, where half the population thinks theit job in a car is to emulate Dale Earnhardt. The enforcement of speed limits here is basically random.

Other states in the US seem to have drivers that stick closer to the limits, and I assumed that probably drivers would have been different in other provinces in Canada as well... wherabouts are you?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I think it'll rank up there with the artifical island in Japan that houses the new airport Of course that's sinking, so not sure how much a marvel it is.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"The one time I was in Toronto, I noticed that people drove a lot closer to the speed limits than they do 'back home'. "

I am in Toronto this very second. I can tell you that the Toronto police have special anti-bad-driver squads that go out and HUNT for the worst drivers on the road. They have special 'stealth cars' that are cop cars disguised as normal cars and only show their police markings under special lighting conditions. I heard on the radio this morning that this squad handed out something like 2400 fines in 3 days.

They have similar squads that go out an set up traps at often-ignored stop signs and often-run red lights. These squads generally hand out tickets at a rate of more than 1 per minute. Torontonians in particular have many reasons to obey the rules of the road. But this is the exception more than the rule in Ontario.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[ldopa1]

Of course, you're right.. I was straining to get it right, and failed... My memory apparently isn't what it used to be.. :)

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[mikerich]

I think he's referring to Osaka's fabulous Kansai International airport, which is not only huge, but a breathtaking piece of architecture.

Japan has a thing about megastructures and land reclamation. I was there in January and we drove across Tokyo Bay on the new Aqualine. A combination of a bridge (4.5 km long) and tunnel (9.5 km). The two meet at a huge artificial island in the middle of the bay.

Incredibly the whole thing was deserted when we were there. Very eerie, driving mile after mile and not seeing another vehicle.

It's even more surreal when you've just arrived from broken down old Blighty and you find a country full of magnificent roads that are almost empty.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[wilhelm]

In America, you study a book and take a written exam and a driving test to get a license.

Unfortunately, in Texas, most no longer have to take the driving test. As long as you can show that you've taken some sort of driving school, you don't have to demonstrate that you can actually drive properly.

And of course, now that they've dropped the speed limits to 55mph all over Houston because of our pollution problem, things just continue to spiral ever-downward. And our buses are much-reviled, and we have no trains.

Here's a question: in Europe, do you have to occasionally take a renewal test, to make sure your driving skills are up to snuff? Seems like a good idea; if we had something like that here, most of my friends would be walkin'.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Craig Davison]

Light rail usually _averages_ 30-40 in cities, but the max speed is right up there with your car, 50-55. Trains would of course reach max speed on a bridge this long.

But anyway these will definitely not be light rail trains. These will be "low" weight intercity electric trains, something not seen in North America for about 50 years given the weight requirements for RR cars and dieselification of everything.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[El Cabri]

Not currently in most countries, but the subject has just been brought up by the Commission, which is drafting a directive to limit the validity of drivers' licenses in member countries to 10 years. However, most countries use the 'points' system, that invalidates your license after you have spent all your points in offenses.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[andyf]

I live in Minnesota (USA) and every time I go to Manitoba (Canada) I'm always shocked at the driving. People there pass other cars on two lane roads in a space that would mean death if they started a half-second later. People drive on Winnipeg city routes (big city streets) like they do on Minneapolis freeways. It's frightening.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"I live in Minnesota (USA) and every time I go to Manitoba (Canada) I'm always shocked at the driving. People there pass other cars on two lane roads in a space that would mean death if they started a half-second later."

Dang farmers. [This is an intra-canadian joke]

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Zen Mastuh]

You have hit the nail on the head, my friend. I don't understand the negative moderation. Someone should mod you back up.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, it's treated as a priviledge, it's just that people here believe everyone has a right to be priviledged. I think that's just what you get when you have such a huge representative democracy, but I'm just pulling that out of my ass.

Another issue, which I didn't realize until I actually drove outside of California, is that traffic on most US roads is pretty light. People living in the less populous areas just don't get experience with heavy traffic. Adverse traffic conditions breed drivers that can deal with them.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[DrVxD]

> They have similar squads that go out an set up traps
The British police have similar "squads". I call them Tax Collectors...

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[isorox]

Another good thing in Italy is that the older population does not drive. This gets rid of a good percentage of the people who should not be on the road in the first place.

Really? Ever driven the milan ring road at rush hour? 110 MILES per hour plus in the outside lane.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Jucius Maximus]

"I don't understand the negative moderation."

I believe that there's a troll moderator hunting me. I'll get it back on metamod.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it'll rank up there with the artifical island in Japan that houses the new airport

You mean it'll immediately start sinking into the water, too?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Anonymous Coward]

Driving is a right in America, but a privilege in Europe.

Which America would that be?

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[Aapje]

In the Netherlands, there is a lot of talk about renewal tests. But politicians don't seem to care much, I guess it's not a good way to garner votes. We do have medical check-ups for the elderly. Check their eye sight and stuff like that. A point system is covertly being introduced, for young drivers only (two heavy accidents and you lose the license). Not very effective IMO. We need a good point system, many drivers see tickets as a kind of tax. Taking away their license is the only thing that's really going to stop them.

Re:Huge engineering feat..

[grue23]

Driving is a right in America, but a privilege in Europe.

Every time I go to traffic school for speeding here in CA, they always remind us that driving in America is a privilege, not a right. We have to be licensed for it, and the privilege can be taken away if we disobey laws.

Gibraltar Bridge

[CaseyB]

I seriously doubt that it'll ever be built, but the Gibraltar Bridge is a fascinating concept nonetheless.

9 *miles* long, with 3 towers, each almost twice the height of the CN Tower. Crazy!

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[daveym]

Even better is the revolutionary hybrid cable-stayed/suspension design of the Gibralter bridge. They should try that in Italy instead of the boring plain jane suspension bridge they are planning now.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid it never will be build, Europe has little to none economical benefits with such a connection to north africa...
It's a nice idea though

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[leifb]

Kind of like the US sees no economic benefit from being in such close contact with Mexico?

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[brad3378]

&gt I seriously doubt that it'll ever be built, but the Gibraltar Bridge [discovery.com] is a fascinating concept nonetheless.
9 *miles* long, with 3 towers, each almost twice the height of the CN Tower. Crazy!

If the Gibralter Bridge is ever built, I predict it to be an incredible boost to the economies of both Europe and Africa. Industry in Europe could gain by getting cheap labor in Africa, while nations in Africa will receive heavy investments - Improving their infrastructure. Surely it would be a Win-Win situation for both Africa and Europe.

Like the Tunnel connecting France and Great Brittain, I think it is likely bridges like these would only be feasible if high speed railways are used. High speed railways would allow more traffic and therefore higher revenues to help offset the costs. Unfortunately, I don't think Railways at the southern Regions of the Italian Mainland are currently up to the task. As Americans, we might fail to realize that railways are a primary mode of transportation in most of Europe. Although Expressways do exist, Many people choose to not drive at all because train rides are cheap yet convienient.

It is my belief that the Sicilian Bridge will require much greater investments than the bridge itself to become sucessful. Traffic is what pays for gigantic projects like this, and without high speed railways and expressways it may be difficult.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[kaphka]

You know, as someone who has spent most of his life trapped on the wrong side of Manhattan, that artist's conception of the Gibraltar bridge over NYC doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Of course, a similarly impresive tunnel under the Long Island Sound would be much more practical. As I understand it, it would be a very reasonable undertaking from a financial and technical standpoint (unlike other crossings mentioned here), but it's being blocked by NIMBY issues. Idiots.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[MAXOMENOS]

If the Gibralter Bridge is ever built, I predict it to be an incredible boost to the economies of both Europe and Africa.

Not to mention an instant target for Islamic and White Supremacist terrorists.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[Fizyx]

Bill Gates could pay for it. Twice.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[daveym]

Railways may be the primary mode of passenger transport, but most european freight goes by truck (surprise!). That's why having 1 tunnel fire in Switzerland wreaks havoc with the entire european freight delivery system.....

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[Doomdark]

...incredible boost to the economies of both Europe and Africa. Industry in Europe could gain by getting cheap labor in Africa, while nations in Africa will receive heavy investments - Improving their infrastructure.

Well, there are already hundreds of thousands of immigrant moroccan workers in Spain. They travel by ferries, visit their families over weekends and so on (actually situation is similar to mexican immigration situation in southern US states). But the biggest is hardly the transportation; bridge would do nothing for real barriers for free flow of labour (legal barriers as labor unions in Europe are afraid of cheap labour, governments worried about social problems etc etc)

And as to investments to Africa, money need not be transported via bridges... lack of investments is not really caused by missing road infrastructure between Europe and Africa but by total lack of interest. Africa is about the worst place to invest, and has been for past couple of decades. Sad but true. :-/

In short, even though bridge would have its uses it's unlikely it would have huge impacts on any nearby economies.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[twfry]

Industry in Europe could gain by getting cheap labor in Africa

Except for the fact that the Europeans are seriously cracking down on immigration and are atively trying to fight cheap labor in Africa.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[stevey]

I don't think Railways at the southern Regions of the Italian Mainland are currently up to the task. As Americans, we might fail to realize that railways are a primary mode of transportation in most of Europe. Although Expressways do exist, Many people choose to not drive at all because train rides are cheap yet convienient.

In Europe possibly.

In the UK we've been having a terrible time over the past few years with the national train service 'British Rail' having been broken up into several indepedant commercial companies.

Maintainence has become a joke, as has the ability to stick to timetables. To make matters worse we've have several high profile accidents over the past few years which have been linked to the poor state of the rails themselves, and the age of the rolling stock.

The drivers have been holding one day strikes to get more pay - and quite frankly it's hard to hear somebody from the UK say something good about our tran service.

Re:Gibraltar Bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

9 *miles* long, with 3 towers, each almost twice the height of the CN Tower. Crazy!

I do hope they work on their math skills. The article says the cables will total 1,000,000 miles -- enough to circle the earth about thirty times. Yeah, leaving only enough change for another twelve go-rounds. Sheesh.

What's wrong with steel?

[PhysicsGenius]

Or how about that PYRAmatrix stuff from the other day? I don't understand why they are using silican.

Re:What's wrong with steel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Steeling is fine if your not caught but with so many hoodrats, mafia bastards, and i-tallians in scumily I don't see how you'd get away with it.

A lot of Italians not very happy...

[alessio]

A link between Sicily and mainland has been a topic of discussion for at least fifty years: a bridge, or also an underwater tunnel, but nothing has been ever really done.

There are a lot of reasons for this: it would be *huge*, and an environmental monster. It would change the two sides' life in unpredictable ways but maybe business won't increase a lot and it won't increase the "isolation" of Sicily, which is not only generated by geography.

Two more reasons: area is very very seismic (that stopped any underwater idea) and there is that little Sicilian organization, the mafia (yep, the original one), which is looking forward to jump on the cashpiles generated by the contracts - which will be probably be awarded in a "special" way because the project is "special"...

Last but not least, this Italian government is always keen to boots high-profile projects (with or without the necessary funding) and a little less keen to work on more urgent stuff, but maybe I'm biased on this last reason...

Re:A lot of Italians not very happy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The idea of this bridge is absolutely ridiculous. Southern Italy Mainland and Sicily have a transport system (roads, highways, motorways, railroads) in desperate conditions: basically only one double-track (two-way) railroad south of Rome, not enough motorways ... to name one, the most trafficked path in Italy is the so-called "Sun Motorway" (Autostrada del Sole, AutoSole for short); it's a motorway. The second most trafficked path is in Sicily, and it connects Catania with Siracusa --and it has not been made into a motorway (it's still SS 114, the most deadly road in Italy).

What the heck do we build such an enormous monster for, if there is simply not enough transport system BEFORE and AFTER it? Why isn't the money put into completing the motorways which have been started but never completed? Why don't they rather overhaul and redesign the railroads?

Because:

(1) doing this would cross too many "interests" of "Important" people in Sicily and the other Southern regions, "important" people which helped guarantee that our current, uhm, chief of state could get elected despite being a criminal

and

(2) there's a lot of money in the bridge construction, and this money is very likely to end up in the hands of those same friends of our criminal chief of state who currently own the monopoly of the private ferry system (ok, there are the ferries owned by the FFSS (State Railroads), so it's not really a monopoly).

Lucifer's Hammer

[TweeKinDaBahx]

Seems like a good plan, until you look at disaster scenarios. What happens to this immensly expensive engineering feat if something does happen?

I think in this situation, a 'chunnel' or something like it would make more sense, not just because it would be more durable, but because a big bridge like this will disrupt shipping lanes during construction, and possibly dangerous to ships after it is completed.

Not to mention it would be a target for terrorists faster than you can say "strategery".

Re:Lucifer's Hammer

[ocbwilg]

think in this situation, a 'chunnel' or something like it would make more sense, not just because it would be more durable,

Except during times of high seismic activity, for which the area is known. The articles also stated that Sicily drifts northwards about 3 feet per century, and shifting that is likely much easier for a suspension bridge to cope with than a tunnel.

but because a big bridge like this will disrupt shipping lanes during construction,

If there are no pylons in the water as planned, disruption during construction should be minimal.

and possibly dangerous to ships after it is completed.

The articles stated that the bridge will be some 230+ feet above sea level which allows enough clearance for US aircraft carriers. That should leave plenty of room for cargo ships.

Re:Lucifer's Hammer

[scharkalvin]

When the Verrazano bridge was proposed in NYC it was argued that if the bridge was destroyed it would block access to the ocean from the Brooklyn Navy Yard (which doesn't matter anymore since the Brooklyn Navy Yard has been closed for years now).
Anyway the designers of the bridge showed that nothing short of a DIRECT HIT by an atomic bomb would destroy the bridge (and IF that were to happen the Navy Yard would have gotten vaporized as well). So the US Navy dropped any objection to the project.

Build It!

[grokBoy]

"But Italy's Green Party said it was ridiculous to spend such astronomic sums on the bridge when many Sicilians remained without a proper water supply and the island's roads are badly in need of modernisation."

Well, call me idealistic, but surely the building of the bridge itself will bring jobs to the area in the short term, and allow greater communication/commuting possibilities for Sicilian residents when completed?

This, therefore, will bring in wealth to the area - and hopefully the improvements that are needed will follow suit. However, the decision to fund this project through the use of tolls may impact on its success, at least from the Sicilian side.

Re:Build It!

[Anonymous Coward]

My thought was, won't connecting Sicily to the european mainland make it cheaper to bring in building materials and such, thus making it somewhat easier to install better water supplies and roads? Meaning it would make sense to do this first?

And what is the problem , exactly , with the water supply in Sicily? I mean, is this "there isn't enough freshwater on the island", or is it a last-mile problem-- "we don't have piping from the distillation center to these ten or fifteen rural counties"? Could someone who knows more than i do (read: anything) about italy respond?

- super ugly ultraman

Re:Build It!

[Anonymous Coward]

Last mile problem, the numerous mob-built dams don't have an infrastructure for supplying water to the island, some say everything is actually in place but the mob hold the keys, essentially blackmailing the whole island.

Re:Build It!

[dtosti]

Well, call me idealistic, but surely the building of the bridge itself will bring jobs to the area in the short term, and allow greater communication/commuting possibilities for Sicilian residents when completed?

yes you're right. But the sicilian bridge (and the south of italy) isn't enough for helping the local economy...the highway linking sicily with naples (and thus with the rest of the world) must be totally renewed (anyone who drove on that thing can confirm this).

However, the decision to fund this project through the use of tolls may impact on its success, at least from the Sicilian side.

Sure? Remember that sicilian people has always paid a toll for passing the street via ferry. If the bridge toll is a bit cheaper than the ferry one, economy will surely improve.

Re:Build It!

[dtosti]

And what is the problem , exactly , with the water supply in Sicily?

Usually lack of maintenance and some unfinished but very important buildings.

Bad perspective

[Borodog]

Anyone else notice that the "artists conception" photo is impossible? Look at the support tower on the right. The perspective clearly shows you are looking at the interior side (i.e. the water side) of the support tower. Yet the span dwindles into the distance to the far tower. Bzzzzt. Wrong.

This does not bode well for their engineers, if they failed to notice a little thing like a crooked support tower . . .

Re:Bad perspective

[Fantanicity]

This does not bode well for their engineers

I doubt the Italians are stupid enough to hire the BBC's photoshop monkey as their chief engineer.

Re:Bad perspective

[hagardtroll]

What are those Croutons doing on the shore?

Re:Bad perspective

[bje2]

apparently the bridge takes a big right turn in the middle...ha

you're right though...i didn't notice it the first time, but the two perspectives do make the bridge in the picture impossible...

Re:Bad perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Sunbatheing

Re:Bad perspective

[Alan Partridge]

maybe you should dig out that Speak & Spell that your mother bought you for your 4th birthday

Re:Bad perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I hack it to run Linux.

Re:Bad perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, are you any good?

Re:Bad perspective

[RollingThunder]

Heck, it could be some whacked-out crazy new design, where the towers on each end aren't perpendicular to the roadway. *shrug*

It did look odd to me when I first saw it though, and this explains what it was.

Re:Bad perspective

[RollingThunder]

Actually, I looked on the site - that's not a BBC job, it's from the strettodimessina site, and while one looks cockeyed, another (from the same end) looks square. And the implication is these are computer renders - not a photoshop job. Wierd.

The view from the end of the bridge

Re:Bad perspective

[bluGill]

Any engineer worth his salt can design a brige to look like a single Artist drawing. Now granted it is silly to put a support tower at an angle so that someone standing on one spot on the shore can see both the inside of a far support tower, and the bridge dwindling off into the distance, and it will probably look odd from all other angles. Still if that particular view is the more important than all others, I can design a bridge that will be both safe, and look like that view.

Now if there were two drawings that both were really odd like that, then I will agree that it can't be done. I think this can be done though. Just remember it will cost extra money.

Re:Bad perspective

[hazem]

While IANAE (Engineer), I do not believe the support towers need to necessarily be built perpendicular to the plane of the suspended cables. I've seen small bridges where the supports were done at a 45 degree angle to this plane. It's possible that such a skewing might help mitigate oscillations and reduce the stresses on the towers.

Think about this... you hold out your arms straight in front of you and someone is pulling on them. You can probably keep from falling over if you stagger your feet from front to back. Maybe they are doing this to help support the longer stretches.

Then again the artist probably just doesn't have a clue and thinks it looks better to show SOME perspective, even if it's wrong!

Re:Bad perspective

[spitzak]

As the text states this is a 180 degree fish-eye lens view. There are very few clues, but I suspect the rock blocks in the foreground are in fact in a straight line and not a curve like they look.

I suspect the bridge from that POV would be absolutely enormous and any normal camera lens would show only a small piece of it.

Re:Bad perspective

[hazem]

Another possibility could be that this was intentionally done - using a painting technique called "roll-over perspective". In this technique, you use different vanishing points for objects that are actually in parallel. If done well, when you view the painting from "proper" distance, you get a feeling of great space.

It relies on the fact that you can only focus on certain parts of the painting at one time, so in the major areas of focus, everything is basically in correct perspective. But if you stand too far away (or the image is made too small on your screen) it doesn't look right.

A great example and better explanation of this is on John Hagan's website on painting techniques, http://www.geocities.com/~jlhagan/advanced/persp.h tm

If the image on the BBC website were done at a large scale, say on a wall, it would probably look really cool and effectively portray a real sense of the size of the thing.

Re:Bad perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

This does not bode well for their engineers, if they failed to notice a little thing like a crooked support tower . . .

It doesn't bode well for you if you can't imahine the "photo" being taken from a point of land which extends far enough out so that it's beyond the tower on the right. Sit at your kitchen table on a long side a foot in from the end and look at both ends.

Re:Bad perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

Another possibility could be that this was intentionally done - using a painting technique called "roll-over perspective". In this technique, you use different vanishing points for objects that are actually in parallel. If done well, when you view the painting from "proper" distance, you get a feeling of great space.

Or, using Occam's Razor, the drawing is a fuckup.

I doubt they will do it

[Anonymous Coward]

They've been yakking about this idea for decades, so don't hold your breathe waiting for the start.

PEI bridge - 13 km

[hey]

The bridge to Prince Edward Island in Canada is 13km. Over twice the distance.

Re:PEI bridge - 13 km

[bLanark]

The bridge to Prince Edward Island [tourcanada.com] in Canada is 13km. Over twice the distance.

Not a Suspension bridge, though.

One large investment.....

[mrgrey]

Once I realized the article read Sicilian and not Silicon (a silicon bridge?) I debated reading the article...Then I read this..
The latest estimate is $4.5 billion, but interest payments could drive this figure up considerably.

The government plans to get private investment to cover more than half the total cost in exchange for toll fees.

That's one large private investment. Who's got that kinda money to throw around, the US?

Re:One large investment.....

[bofkentucky]

Anybody worth 2.25 billion(thats 2.25*(10^9), not (10^12), can do it. Pulling from the top of my head M$FT could pony up 2.25 billion of its 40 billion or Mr. Gates himself could easily afford this luxury. There are several members of the Saudi and Kuwaiti royal families that could pony up this kind of cash, and H Ross Perot was worth 4.3 billion 10 years ago, I would wager that he made some money 1992-2000, but that could have been reduced signifigantly in the last 2 years.

Re:One large investment.....

[dtosti]

no, mostly private investment firms, like JP Morgan, Autostrade SpA (major owner of the italian highways), some private ventures, the builder, and a japanese keiretsu whose name I can't recall.

Anyone else read that as...

[Elyjah]

"Silicon Suspension Bridge"?

Largest wafer in the world?

Re:Anyone else read that as...

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else read that as...

No, everybody else learnt to read when they were about 4 years old.

Re:Anyone else read that as...

[Anonymous Coward]

I learnt to spell the proper, ie. English, way.

Re:Anyone else read that as...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there any words that you recognise? Learnt is spelt correctly.

Re:Anyone else read that as...

[Anonymous Coward]

LEARNED is SPELLED correctly you dunce

Timing

[KingKire64]

I wonder if pizza delivery times will be improved by this bridge?

Re:Have we learned nothing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely. We should all go back to living in caves because a few extremists are annoyed.

mind tricks

[JDizzy]

Funny how the mind works, at first glance I thought I read Silicon Bridge (like Silicon Waffers, etc). Not until I clciked-thru to the article did I finally realize is was Sicilian, as in the island off Italy. Builting a bridge out of Silicon would be something to read about. Oh well....

Re:mind tricks

[Garion911]

Heh.. I thought the same thing. First comment to mind:

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these?

Second comment:

Hate to see the size of the motherboard (or case!). How about the fan(s) to cool it?

Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the big mob bosses in America are Italian. Of those, a majority of them are Sicilian. That's not some sort of stereotype, it's a fact. Why don't you hold the Italians accountable for their actions instead of lashing out with hatred at some random Slashdot poster for pointing out a truth that you apparently don't like? I think your reaction to his post pretty much proves that his point is spot on.

If you want to change the world, then change it. Don't sit around and whine when people (correctly) point out some of the world's problems. Because if you ignore those problems, they won't go away.

Re:Facts

[Alan Partridge]

who are you thinking of? George Bush Sr, Jack Valenti or the Godfather himself, Don Bill Gates? Are they ALL Sicilian?

Re:Facts

[Dephex Twin]

Most of the big mob bosses in America are Italian. Of those, a majority of them are Sicilian. That's not some sort of stereotype, it's a fact.

The whole thing that makes it a racist stereotype is taking the actions of a small minority from a group and attributing it unfairly to the entire group. Yes, there is an Italian mafia in the US, and perhaps many of those involved are Sicilian. Does this mean the people of Sicily are a bunch of mafia hitmen, and are running out of places to dump the bodies? You just said yourself that these were American mafia guys. Are you following me here?

Also, I wonder if it really is a fact that most American mafia guys are Sicilian. Do you even really know that to be a fact?

mark

Re:Facts

[logicnazi]

The original post was a joke for fucks sake and it made no such generalization. The joke is funny because we see the flaw in the reasoning anyway...it wouldn't be funny if they were actually building a 3km bridge to drop bodies off of.

Re:Facts

[Dephex Twin]

Well, the guy I was replying to was defending the joke under the premise that it was rooted in fact. I know it was just a joke, and although I don't care all that much, you have to come to grips with the fact that it is a racial stereotype, funny or not. We probably should be able to joke about these things, and even make ridiculous comments like the original joke, but people need to understand that a stereotype is just that. And truly applying it across the board is dangerous.

it wouldn't be funny if they were actually building a 3km bridge to drop bodies off of.

No? Sounds funny to me.

mark

Re:Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Say, you omitted the outcome of the game. Must have been an oversight.

Re:Facts

[boomer_rehfield]

I'm going to go out on a limb here...and I can hear it cracking. A racial stereotype is supposed to be against a whole race, yes? If we are selecting the Sicilians, they aren't really their own race.. and I can take it from the joke (or not) that by dumping bodies, that one would ASSUME that we're discussing the sicilian mafia (is this not obvious to everyone else??) since it's always been the premier mafia in the world. (or at least the most well known, yes?) So, what are we looking at now? Sicilians in the mafia...(no, they're NOT their own race...) and an inference (yes, an obvious one) that the most well known mafia in the world might use it to dump bodies off of. Now how does that become a racial stereotype? How is something even stereotypical when it's something that you normally do? What, if they bury a body occassionally it becomes a stereotype because they don't dump EVERY body off the bridge?

Re:Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

it wouldn't be funny if they were actually building a 3km bridge to drop bodies off of.

No? Sounds funny to me.

By "it" he meant his joke. If they were actually doing that, then while that might be funny, his joke wouldn't be much of a joke at all. There - I think this horse is beaten to death. Until the next reply, I mean.

Re:Facts

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen some ignorant people, but you take the cake. Just so you know, which you probably don't, there was organized crime and street gangs in America long before Italians even started to emmigrate there.
Keep on being a fool, confident under the veil of anonymity.
PS don't bther pointing out that i'm posting an anonymous reply, b/c i'm not the one to make the ignorant,false accusation that you have.

Re:Facts

[Dephex Twin]

Don't worry, I won't reply again.

Aw crap. Sorry.

Re:Facts

[Dephex Twin]

Did you even see what I was replying to that led me to bring up "racial" stereotypes?

It doesn't appear you did, so here is the part that I responded to:

Most of the big mob bosses in America are Italian. Of those, a majority of them are Sicilian. That's not some sort of stereotype, it's a fact. Why don't you hold the Italians accountable for their actions...

Do you really not see a racial stereotype going on in that statement? If not, there's not really anything else I can say.

mark

Re:Facts

[boomer_rehfield]

Apparently not....my apologies... somehow my view of the situation was that you were responding to the original comment about the dumping of bodies of the bridge. Sorry about that man..... *takes another sip of Spaten* : )?

Re:Facts

[Dephex Twin]

That's okay, I figured it was just that. The only real problem I had with the joke itself is that it was too obvious (like a joke Jay Leno would make).

Cheers,
mark

Re:Facts

[ealar dlanvuli]

my mafia is chinese

The bridge that'll doom Sicilly

[Taco Cowboy]

I always have admiration towards the Sicillians.

They're Italians but they are NOT part of italy.

They speak Italians, but they are NOT as lazy and as inept as the average Italians.

That is why Sicillians have Mafia, and Italians can only "mama mia" over it.

No, I am not in love with the violence, what I like about Mafia is that they have GUTS, which the Italians can never find within themselves.

And now comes the bridge, the bridge that will make Sicilly a part of Italy.

Doom will the unique tradition of Sicilly. And as far as Mafia goes, they will become as complacent as the Italian government.

Sigh !

Re:The bridge that'll doom Sicilly

[simonecaldana]

Italy is too warm for trolls to survive *grin*

Re:The bridge that'll doom Sicilly

[Sip]

They speak Italians, but they are NOT as lazy and as inept as the average Italians

Apart from the idiocy of your generalization,
it seems you (as many) don't know anything about Italy. Come to the northern part of Italy (where I live) and you'll find there are deep differences in environment (no sea&sun here!), culture, industrialization and way of living.
IMO the northern part of Italy is much more similar to Germany than to the southern part of my country.
Mafia, spaghetti, pizza, mandolino are typical aspects of the southern regions (not that I don't eat pizza). About your supposed laziness of Italians, in my zone work is considered a foundamental aspect, the central point, of life. This is just to underline that you should always know a bit of what you'r talking about.

Re:The bridge that'll doom Sicilly

[Anonymous Coward]

I always have admiration towards the Hawiians.

They're Americans but they are NOT part of the US.

They speak English, but they are NOT as fat, ugly and as "white trash" as the average American.

That is why Hawiians have Volcanoes, and Americans can only "what the fuck, huh" over it.

No, I am not in love with the lava, what I like about Volcanoes is that they have GUTS, which the Americans can never find within themselves.

And now comes the bridge, the bridge that will make Hawaii a part of the US.

Doom will the unique tradition of Hawii. And as far as Volcanoes go, they will become as complacent as the American government.

Sigh !

Re:The bridge that'll doom Sicilly

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say!!

Re:Have we learned nothing?

[jcoy42]

It's an attack waiting to happen.

Havn't you seen The Godfather? Nobody in their right minds mess with the italians.

Oh wait..

Silly canadian

[Subaiku]

its also not at all a suspension bridge :-P

But it's not a suspension bridge

[davidmb]

So, while a remarkable feat of engineering, it's not really comparable to this bridge.

Now it will be much easier to dispose of bodies!

[Anonymous Coward]

Once the Sicilian have fitted their "friends" with cement overshoes, they'll be able to to throw these friends into the ocean from speeding Cadillacs! Think of the time it will save, not having to search for an abandoned wharf or lake. Surely this bridge will revolutionize Italy's crime industry, which accounts for 65% of the country's GDP. (The other 35% is a combination of spaghetti sauce and cheap Renaissance merchandise.) Italian crime also accounts for about 5% of the US GDP. Hooray for mobsters!

-- The_Messenger

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[rmohr02]

The bridge will be five kilometres long and its central span - supported by four steel cables each nearly a metre-and-a-half in diameter - will measure over three kilometres.

A meter (I'm American--that's how we spell it) and a half wide?!?!? How do they make steel cables like that, or, for that matter, get them to bend at all?

Re: affecting culture

[bLanark]

have to wonder how this will affect the culture of both areas.

Well, Scotland and England are joined by land but still have their own cultures. At times the natives hate each other (like whenever England play football, most of Scotland supports the other team, no matter who it is).

Straits of Gibraltar Bridge

[Like2Byte]

If you think the Sicilian Bridge will bridge the gap in clutures, check out this Discovery Article.

Same way they make any cable

[wiredog]

Take a bunch of strands and wrap them together.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[action789]

Probably just bundled cables braided together multiple times to an overall width of 1.5m. I did some research on this some time ago, and they originally start with .05m cables which are braided together in bulks of (example, not sure of number) 12 or so. Several of those bundles are braided together in groups of (again, example..) 6. Those are belted together & sheathed, which produces 1.5m diameter

Longest span, not longest bridge

[Mr.Phil]

This new bridge will be the longest span between towers, but not the longest suspension bridge. Mackinac Bridge, connecting Michigan's Upper and Lower Peninsulas, is five-miles long, including approaches, and is the world's longest suspension bridge between cable anchorages.

http://www.mackinacbridge.org/

I've been over it on days that where so windy there was a police escort across and you had to turn the car wheel at the expansion joints to stay in your lane. This was shortly after the lady in the Yugo blew over the side of the bridge in a wind storm.

Re:Longest span, not longest bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

Suspension bridges seem like they would be prone to failing under windy conditions. I wonder if/how they will address this.

Re:Longest span, not longest bridge

[mikerich]

I think you're thinking of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. TN failed because of a wind-induced oscillation which eventually ripped the deck apart.

TN had two problems. The first was that the deck of the bridge was very narrow in relation to its width (the span was 2800 feet long, but only 39 feet wide). The second was that the engineers had made the deck very thin, partly because of the light traffic expected on the route, but also to make the bridge appear 'lighter'.

Both of these factors made the bridge extremely flexible, allowing it to twist, bounce and eventually fail.

Immediately afterwards, bridges were redesigned with much deeper decks and less extreme length-width ratios. More recent bridges have also tended to have aerodynamic decks which allow the wind to pass over them more easily.

But I must admit that my first thought was this bridge would have an insane length-width ratio and how were they going to deal with it?

Best wishes,
Mike.

I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[Anonymous Coward]

It's illogical to accuse people of ignorance when you don't have any experience with the situation yourself. Have you ever tried to run a business in Italy? Get threatened by the mafia (Sicilian, btw)? Forced to pay for 'safety'? End up shutting down the business as a result? ...Probably not. It's a stereotype, yes, but a very valid one (in this case).

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[Dephex Twin]

So let's say I get mugged by a black man someday, or even worse... I can now consider blacks to be a bunch of thieves and thugs?

This is what is going on if you can consider all Silicians (*living in Siciliy even*) to be mafia hitmen. Who cares if some or even all the mafia guys are Sicilian? Does that mean that most Sicilians are in the mafia? No. Hence the fact that it is a racial stereotype.

mark

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[Anonymous Coward]

Blacks are a bunch of thieves and thugs.

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[dtosti]

If you run a business in the north of italy you aren't going to be threatened by mafia, because northern italians enforce the law more than southern ones.

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[Anonymous Coward]

If you know of any Italian history you'd know that southern Italians (by southern, i mean any region south of Rome), especially Sicilians, were pissed on with relatively unfair laws, taxes, etc by northern noblemen through out it's fractured history. This bred disent and eventually what was known as the "black hand" evolved into the so-called Mafia.
Because the Mafia is more powerful there than it is now here (thanks to the virtual elimination of it by the FBI) does not mean everyone in Sicily supports or is involved in organized crime.
Maybe you should read more history besides quoting fabricated statistics and stop assuming that a bad minority holding the majority hostage means the whole island of Sicily is filled with rouges and hitmen.

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[dtosti]

I'm Italian. Don't pretend to teach me my history. :)

Unfair laws in southern italy were made not by northern noblemen, but by the local petty noblemen themselves! Southern Italy was always a possession of a foreign country (HRE, France and Spain) whose ruler was too far to put those lord on strict control like they did in homeland. So southern barons acted as they liked, telling the people to blame their distant ruler if they complained about government.

The mafia as we know it born just after the proclamation of the Italian Kingdom because the sicilian barons (with the cooperation of the last King of Naples) didn't like the new deal, more centralistic than before.

About current power of the mafia (and other criminal organization), yes, maybe it's still powerful in south Italy and not in the US. But one thing is sure. Criminality usually have "horror vacui": they always tend to fill the void left by the defeat of other organizations. Guess who has substituted our mafia in your country? I know, but I won't tell you ;-)

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Italian. Don't pretend to teach me my history. :)

Hey so am I, so don't pretend you're the only one or that that gives you special insight. Course I did get a C+ in my Ital-Amer course when in college so maybe I don't remember everything I learned...:P

Unfair laws in southern italy were made not by northern noblemen, but by the local petty noblemen themselves!

Well it obvious for anyone to realize that some one must watch over the land for il padrino (or whatever the word is for landlord). But what I said (and you said) is true: that the rural south is control by northern noblemen in a feudalistic manner. With all legislation passed in favor of northerners.
Pointing out that a select few southerners were employed in suppressing and ruling land for their Northern "bosses" are the point.

Southern Italy was always a possession of a foreign country (HRE, France and Spain) whose ruler was too far to put those lord on strict control like they did in homeland. So southern barons acted as they liked, telling the people to blame their distant ruler if they complained about government.

Exactly, Italy was fragmented until Grabaldi unified it in the late 19th century (1862??).
This doesn't add anything to invalidate what I posted, and lets face it: the orinigal poster was a troll who probably never even grew up in an area like NY where there are many different groups, with there diverse stereotypes. They probably grew up in the bread basket, and their parents never gave em a good enough ass kicking or just set an ignorant example. Hopefully, we can look forward to passive eugenics and he won't reproduce or meet an untimely death :P

The mafia as we know it born just after the proclamation of the Italian Kingdom because the sicilian barons (with the cooperation of the last King of Naples) didn't like the new deal, more centralistic than before.

Hence the black hand and then the rampant facists emerging around WWII. Sicilians in particular were extremely vicious in rejecting the facisits.

About current power of the mafia (and other criminal organization), yes, maybe it's still powerful in south Italy and not in the US. But one thing is sure. Criminality usually have "horror vacui": they always tend to fill the void left by the defeat of other organizations.

Agreed

Guess who has substituted our mafia in your country? I know, but I won't tell you ;-)

I would say big corps in bed with politicians through "legal" lobbying. Of course you won't tell me so the rest of Ameraica will never know the truth that you know. :D

Re:I assume you've never tried to work in Italy

[dtosti]

But what I said (and you said) is true: that the rural south is control by northern noblemen in a feudalistic manner. With all legislation passed in favor of northerners.

Are you dislessic? :) Northern noblemen never controlled southern Italy. The real rulers of the land were the local italian barons, who passed all legislation in favor of themselves. So, only sicilians and neapolitans are the people to be blamed for the birth of the mafia. Leave us northerners out of this thing, please

Exactly, Italy was fragmented until Grabaldi unified it in the late 19th century (1862??).

Garibaldi unified Italy? muahahahah :), he was the puppet of the British Empire (it paid all his war expenses)....The real unificator of our country was the Count of Cavour and his successors as prime minister of the Kingdom.

Hence the black hand and then the rampant facists emerging around WWII. Sicilians in particular were extremely vicious in rejecting the facisits.

I suggest you to read Indro Montanelli's History Of Italy to correct your prejudices about fascism and Italy in general.

You deserve your C+ :)

politicians talked about it for 30 years...

[kipple]

...until I won't see it built and working, and I will hear a committee of engineers stating that it's safe, I won't believe it. And the committee must be independent from any sort of government, expecially the Italian one.

Sorry, but being an Italian makes me quite used to that bloated political stuff... plus, for what I've heard [nothing official, I'm asking what do you engineers think about it], it will be built using outdated techniques. Could it be true?

Anyway, I hope it won't just suck the (little) Italian government money, as so many of those projects did for the last 50 years (corruption, et cetera).

Re:politicians talked about it for 30 years...

[freshmkr]

Sorry, but being an Italian makes me quite used to that bloated political stuff...

You'd know better about this than I would, but... my host brother from my stay in Italy was a city planner and denounced the entire project from the beginning. He reasoned that relatively little commercial traffic would ever cross the bridge, regardless of however much it would stimulate the local economy, and instead preferred the expansion of roads and railroads in the north, the seat of most of the country's manufacturing. This view could have been slightly chauvanistic--he lived in Parma and now lives in Milan--but it does seem necessary. According to him, the Milan-Bologna rail corridor currently operates at 110% capacity. (Fortunately, this is being accounted for.)

I guess my overall question is: is there really a need for this enormous bridge? Is the current ferry system really straining to keep up with all the passengers and freight?

Personally, I just think it's really cool to have the passenger trains get loaded into boats when they need to cross the Strait of Messina.

--Tom

Re:politicians talked about it for 30 years...

[dipfan]

It's one of those things. Italian politicians have been talking about building this damn thing for a very long time. 30 years? More like 50. In fact, I have a vague memory reading that Mussolini even proposed building it at one point.

Because the economies of the south of Italy, and especially Sciliy, are so (relatively) poor, this bridge plan is always being mooted as the solution. In fact, in the 1970s and 1980s all sorts of dumb public works projects would take place in the south as Keynsian boosts to the local economy, and the bridge was one of the projects that was always "soon" to take place.

Will it happen? Who knows, but the article mentioned "within three years" - frankly, I'd be surprised. Why the BBC thought this was worth reporting, I don't know.

Re:politicians talked about it for 30 years...

[dtosti]

don't worry it wont. At university (I'm a student of business administration) we studied the bridge from an economic point of view. Only one fifth will be paid from the government, the other 4/5 will be paid from private investors, and they will gain the right to impose bridge tolls for a eriod of 30 years circa.

Kobe bridge

[--daz--]

I saw a documentary on bridges on the History channel and they were talking about the current #1 bridge (in Kobe, Japan) and they said that it's so long, that the main towards that hold the suspension cables are not parallel. The tops point out, away from each other significantly DUE TO THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH! Sweet.

Man, this Sicillian bridge will curve even more than that!

Re:Kobe bridge

[Toshito]

DUE TO THE CURVATURE OF THE EARTH

Wow! We better present this to the Flat Earth Society!

Choose one:
http://www.flat-earth.org/
http://www.alask a.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatea rthsociety.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fl atearth.html

(the list could be longer but I think I made my point...)

Re:Kobe bridge

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. If you were to make a bridge a whopping 100m wide and a monstrous1000m high, the tops of the towers would be...

(brings out calculator)

...almost a dizzying ONE AND A HALF CENTIMETERS further apart than at the bottom.

Oh how exciting.

Hope it isn't a cable-stayed design...

[sphealey]

The powers that be are talking about a new super-bridge here in St. Louis (Missouri, USA, central North America for you furriners). Problem is they have pre-decided that it will be a cable-stayed design: just like the last 3 Mississippi bridges.

Now, the first few cable-stayed bridges were kind of neat, but at this point they are starting to look all alike and quite boring. Can't we have any more real suspension bridges, like the Brooklyn Bridge? How about a cantilever like the Firth of Forth? Architecturally that would fit in well with St. Louis.

But NO - everything has to be cable-stayed these days it seems.

sPh

Re:Hope it isn't a cable-stayed design...

[Anonymous Coward]

The brooklyn bridge is actually both a regular suspension bridge and a cable stayed design. The builders didn't know if it would work, so they built both in just in case. They also built it something like 3x as strong as it had to be. That's why today, it is still quite strong and able to support enormous masses even though it is over 100 years old.

Re:Hope it isn't a cable-stayed design...

[sphealey]

They also built it something like 3x as strong as it had to be. That's why today, it is still quite strong and able to support enormous masses even though it is over 100 years old.

Eads Bridge here in St. Louis (world's first steel arch; first experience with cassion disease {"the bends"} in North America} is similarly over-designed, and has also lasted well over 100 years in difficult conditions.

sPh

Re:Hope it isn't a cable-stayed design...

[stevey]

Now the forth road bridge is a stunning design to look at. Opened on the 4th of September 1964 the bridge connected North and South Queensferry replacing the regular ferry service that had stood for 800 years.

If anybody doesn't know it take a look here:

• http://www.firstcity.force9.co.uk/bridges.htm
• http://www.photoguide.to/edinburgh/forthbridges.ht ml" - Lovely photos

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[rmohr02]

It just seems to me that if you have that much steel packed that closely together it'd be hard to bend. Bu then again, I've never done any research on this.

Italian engineers

[tps12]

This should be good. One piece of advice for people crossing the bridge: bring your scoopa suit.

Re:Italian engineers

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucka you "huh" Americano! When was the last time any American team (Ford, Chrysler, etc) won an F1 championship? Ohh, too busy with your pathetic NASCAR toilet bowl racing, "huh"? Fucking American dimwits.

Re: affecting culture

[Alan Partridge]

only because the Romans had the good sense to build a wall.

Amazingly

[parc]

I read the headline as "Silicon Suspension Bridge to Go Ahead." And I thought, "a bridge out of silicon? That doesn't make sense."

Re:Amazingly

[Peyna]

Heh, same here. Then I realized it was 'sicilian' and had visions of a giant bridge made out of pizza. Go figure.

HEY MODERATORS!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

He mentioned Terrorism without pointing out that there wouldn't be any terrorism in the world if there weren't any caucasian males. MARK HIM DOWN!!!

Terrorism is NEVER the terrorist's fault. It is always the target's.

In light of other things...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldnt this bridge be a perfect target for terrorism? I mean, in light of Italy's support for the US led War on Terror, it seems logical that a structure of this magnitude would be seen as symbolic to Italy as the WTC was to the United States. I hope they use enough security measures, however with rockets and missiles readily available throughout the Middle East, i dont know if Italy's weak army and intelligence would be able to singlehandedly protect the bridge.

The mafia, duh

[Anonymous Coward]

w00t!

Amen, Taco!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, CmdrTaco, I've been reading Slashdot for about 3 years now, and that's the most insightful thing you've ever posted. Islam is death. The death of people. The death of technology. The death of progress. And the death of the future.

I'm glad that the Slashdot editorial team chooses to rally itself AGAINST the muslim menace

Re:Amen, Taco!

[nesthigh]

Do you monitor the insightfullness of all posters or just User #468152. Oh, I see.. "the" CmdrTaco is #468152. Gotcha.

Carry "on"

Next

Retirement plan

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the retirement plan for the two families at each end of the bridge, and the central family.

If you thing the Enron scandel is big, wait till you see what happens with this bridge, and the hundreds of politicians that will be tied to this. The Enron scandel will be peanuts in comparison.

Italy's Green Party...

[Havokmon]

But Italy's Green Party said it was ridiculous to spend such astronomic sums on the bridge when many Sicilians remained without a proper water supply and the island's roads are badly in need of modernisation. Ok.. I can MAYBE see the water supply issue, but ROADS? Come on. It seems like there isn't much traffic NOW going to Sicily, why would they need to spend money on making nice roads?

Now, if the bridge is built, Sicily could easily attract weekend tourism, would would bring in more money, that would pay for the new roads.

They'd also need the clean water..

Targets ...

[jolshefsky]

(Sorry to be so negative, but ...)

I didn't see this in the article--do they plan on putting in a homing beacon or a big target on the critical tower or towers? This would simplify the plans of the flying terrorists of 2015.

Re:Targets ...

[Peyna]

For some reason I see big cities as more likely targets than bridges. They've gotten along pretty well without the bridge thus far, knocking it out is only going to be a financial set back in terms of what it cost to build it and replace it.

Of course, the only solution to avoid building giant targets for people who hate you is to make everyone live and work in rural communities with at least a square mile in between everyone. Uhm yeah sure. Living in fear is not very desirable.

Re:Targets ...

[DrVxD]

> Of course, the only solution to avoid building giant targets for people who hate you is to make everyone live and work in rural communities with at least a square mile in between everyone
Or you could re-invent the world population so that nobody would hate you. Unfortunatly, that would effectively mean the elimination of all organised religon (amongst other things)

The bridge of death

[resonator]

WHAT, is your name?

Sir Gallihad of Camelot

WHAT, is your quest?

To seek the secret Mafia headquarters

WHAT, is the overall weight of the bridges galvanized steel wires?

I don't know that... nooooooooooo.....

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Hydrogenoid]

Err...
Steel is used for that kind of structures because it will bends without breaking...
Anyway, you should expect a three kilometer long and more than a metre of diameter cylinder of steel to be quite heavy... if you attach only the two extremities, chances are it wil not retain its shape...

Silicon.. bridge..

[distributed.karma]

North Bridge!

Kevlar?

[Andy Dodd]

Maybe Kevlar - Much lighter than steel, and stronger.

But expensive...

Re:Kevlar?

[mjpaci]

Kevlar and ultraviolet light do not get along very well.

Re:Kevlar?

[saider]

Read the tech article. Steel cables are used. From what I understand, they lightened the roadway using some novel designwork.

Re: Curvature

[distributed.karma]

To go in line with Italian chicks, they will probably add some extra curvature.

My Favorite Bridge

[big_groo]

Has always been the Mackinack Bridge spanning the Upper and Lower Peninsulas of Michigan. We used to drive this way all the time to go to Southern Ontario (from the North, eh?) The suspension part on the bridge has steel grating in the middle two lanes - it's pretty cool to look straight down at the water. They frequently close this bridge during poor weather. I think about 10-15 years ago, a small car (Yugo?) actually blew off the bridge during high winds.

www.fishweb.com/maps/cheboygan/mackinawcity/brid ge

8 km total length. Cool.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[athmanb]

Notice that it's a cable 1.5 meters across and one kilometer long. So effectively the same ratio as a 1 meter long and 1.5 mm wide rope. It will bend just well.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[kvn299]

If you're in DC or visit sometime, check out the Smithsonian - American History Museum. They have a cross section of some the cable used for one of the NY bridges.

It's pretty damn impressive.

Patton could have used it.

[slam smith]

A shame the bridge didn't exist in 1943. Patton could have used to drive his tanks straight into Italy.

Re:Patton could have used it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back then yes, today I am not sure. The M1A2B weighs in at a heafty 61.4 tons ready for battle. Imagine 300 - 500 of these wonderful tanks trying to cross... the weight would be tought to handle for any bridge I imagine. Hehe

Re:Patton could have used it.

[sphealey]

Back then yes, today I am not sure. The M1A2B weighs in at a heafty 61.4 tons ready for battle. Imagine 300 - 500 of these wonderful tanks trying to cross... the weight would be tought to handle for any bridge I imagine. Hehe.

In North America, a hopper car full of coal typically weighs 100 tons, although some railroads have experimented with 120 ton cars. Those are standard 8-wheel cars (4 axle); I believe tank transport cars have 12 wheels (6 axles). So no biggie.

sPh

Mafia and the Construction Industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Sicily is currently suffering a huge water shortage because the dams built by the mob are defective, some do actually collect water but they neglected to built any infrastructure linking the water to in-demand areas, so... these guys gonna get into the bridge building business too? Christ, I shudder to think, brings a whole new meaning to mob rule.

Background reading

[swm]

To understand the Mafia, read The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight or Tin for Sale : My Career in Organized Crime and the Nypd

There's really nothing to admire.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it funny that Americans spell metre 'meter' even though you people don't use the damn things!

Mi dispiace, signor!

[Zen Mastuh]

Hai ricordo delle Brigate? Che cazzo fanno oggi? Esistanno ancora?

Re:Mi dispiace, signor!

[3.5 stripes]

Uh, loro hanno uciso quell assitente dalla ministero delle economia.

In ogni caso gli italiani guidano come pazzi, e sei non meritavono un patente, non è difficile da comprare..:)

Se voi vedere un casino, prova Napoli dopo la nove dalla sera. Rosso, verde, no hai importanza, solo non ferma!

Damn my written italian is ugly.. sorry.

Re:Mi dispiace, signor!

[Anonymous Coward]

Va bene, ti abiamo capito.

Re:Mi dispiace, signor!

[dtosti]

figliolo, stai facendo una grande confusione. Hai visto napoli e fai l'equazione napoli=italia.

questo paragone e' insultante per me che sono milanese.

PS = e poi, chi l'ha detto che sono state le brigate rosse?

This is nothing...

[airship]

Way back in the 60's, after Superman was split permanently into Superman Blue and Superman Red by red kryptonite, and after they had put their Anti-Evil-Ray satellites into orbit, I recall they built a suspension bridge across the entire Atlantic Ocean, complete with gas stations, motels, and restaurants. Now THAT was a bridge!!

What about the Wayne Newton bridge?

[gelfling]

Yeah you know, the one they'll build in 2031 to connect The Las Vegas Islands to the Arizonian mainland?

Re:What about the Wayne Newton bridge?

[DrVxD]

Arizonians don't BUILD bridges, they buy our old ones.

Oh, wait a minute!

[airship]

Oh wait, I'm sorry, I just remembered!! That was an IMAGINARY story!!!
:)

Re:Oh, wait a minute!

[DrVxD]

> That was an IMAGINARY story!!!
No it was real - you just live on the WRONG planet Earth!

Fish Eye Lens

[hotsauce]

*Sigh* Never seen a photo from a fish eye lens? That effect actually makes the bridge even more impressive.

Re:Fish Eye Lens

[Borodog]

*Sigh* Never seen a photo from a fish eye lens?

Seen plenty. Which I why I can say that the "artist's conception" clearly does not represent a fish-eyed image.

Waste Of Money

[ForMeToPoopOn]

At the moment the cost is 5 billion euros. This figure will obviously triple during the /eventual/ construction of the bridge. Could you immagine what can be done with that kind of money. I mean, if we Italians were not so stupid! Right now, people leaving in Messina have water for 2 days in a week. That's right: Sicily is dry. And that's because the piping system is probably centuries old. Meanwhile, local mafioso steal water from the public system and sell it to whoever can afford to pay. That's what's going on in Sicily at the moment. Come on! We we Italians want to build the longest bridge for the benefit of Sicilians?... Or for me to ... ON???

News flash....

[tomdarch]

Today, May 14, 2014 A support column of the massive bridge connecting the island of Sicily to the Italian mainland collapsed early this morning. While counts of the missing or dead are not yet in, speculation is already swirling as to the cause of the failure. Since the sun rose this morning, video from helecopters in the area clearly show that the concrete in the broken column is a veritable Swiss cheese of holes from the bodies of Mafiosi that were dumped into the concrete while the bridge was under construction...

Another interesting new bridge

[sehryan]

The longest suspension brigde in the US, and what looks to be the thrid longest span in the world (4th if you count this new italian bridge) is currently being built in Charleston, SC. The span will be 1546ft, with the total bridge coming in at about 2.5mi. Check out some info on it here.

Re:Another interesting new bridge

[sehryan]

Except I am a moron and the Charleston bridge is a cable-stayed bridge, not a suspension bridge. It still is the longest cable stayed in the US though. Just ignore the parent.

Country vs Island

[hotsauce]

It is controvesial because of the cost. The cost of the Chunnel was justifiable because it connects countries. It is less clear if $4.5 billion is justifiable to connect a small island to Italy.

Re:Country vs Island

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, that "small island" already is part of Italy. Just not the mainland. Plus, I question calling a 10,000 sq mile island "small".

Re:Country vs Island

[dtosti]

Two clarifications are needed:

1) Sicily isn't a small island it has a population of about 4,9 millions (like finland) with a density per kmq of 189,3 (more than finland) and is the largest island of the mediterranean sea together with sardinia.

2) The bridge is going to be built using the project financing method: private businesses will give all (or at least 3/4 of) the money needed for construction, and in exchange they will be given the right to collect fees from cars and train passing on that bridge for a period of about 30 years.

A few observations...

[Anonymous Coward]

First, great place to dump bodies, since we know the Sicilians are good for just about only that.

Two, with the exception of a few 'rich' sicilians, who will be using this bridge... normal Italians stay as far away from that shit hole as possible.

Three, the comment by some EU critics and members about the bridge saying it was a waste since Sicaly doesn't even have decent roads and water is silly... how do they expect to rebuild or renew these infrastructures if they don't have a decen't land link... it's expensive to begin with rebuilding roads and water infrastructures, imagine the added cost of bringing in all materials, technicians, and equipment via boat rather than a highway. How stupid are these damned Euros anyway?

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Pyrosz]

Just as wiredog said: Take a bunch of strands and wrap them together.

Some of the earliest suspension bridge cables were made from twisted grass. In the early nineteenth century, suspension bridges used iron chains for cables. Today, the cables are made of thousands of individual steel wires bound tightly together. Steel, which is very strong under tension, is an ideal material for cables; a single steel wire, only 0.1 inch thick, can support over half a ton without breaking.

Here is a picture of the cables before binding.

Security thoughts

[tm2b]

I dunno, it seems like large engineering projects like this present an easy target for terrorists.

Not that this should deter us from undertaking such project, just that security concerns should help dictate their design. The chunnel, for example, is already pretty well protected from external attack by the rock it was built into. Suspension bridges are much more difficult to guard.

Just a thought.

Re:Security thoughts

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no shortage of undefended structures for terrorists to attack. Adding any more won't make a difference.

Bridge for the Mob

[nortcele]

Why in the world would they want to give the Mob easy access to the mainland? The bridge will never be built because the Mafia controls jobs like that and it will run way over budget with large chunks going in Mob pockets. It would be a foolish waste of money. A more worthy project would be re-activating the Roman aquaduct.

Re: affecting culture

[ozbon]

I thought the main culture for scotland was penicillin. I'm obviously wrong.

And I'm worried I may be scottish - I was wanting England to lose too...

Re:Have we learned nothing?

[Anonymous Coward]

we tucked 'em up pretty good in WWII though, didn't we boys?

Mass Transit by Catapult

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's much less obtrusive to build a large catapult which can hurl 5-10 people over to Sicily every 15 minutes.

We're going to do that here in Boston when all of the Big Dig money finally goes to the mob.

Re: affecting culture

[kin_korn_karn]

if it's not scottish it's CRAAAAAAAAAAP!!!!

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[nesthigh]

We use them all the time..

parking meters..
gas meters..
electric meters..

Yes they are damned things...

Next

ONE NIL!

[Alan Partridge]

ONE NIL!

ONE NIL!

ONE NIL!

comment NOT aborted, Argentinian World Cup dream aborted!

Wrong...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cities are economic impact targets... you strike those with nukes or bio agents and cause mass death/destruction. They can be status targets as well, in the case of Washington.

Buildings, monuments, and structures individually targeted are status targets. The WTC was also an economic target, but it was primarily a status target. The bridge would be similar in that it would seriously effect trade and economis on both shores.

Bogus CmdrTaco Re:Ignorant jerk

[alapalaya]

If you don't know the user I'm replying to is "CmdrTco on", he's not the original Taco!

Re:Bogus CmdrTaco Re:Ignorant jerk

[Anonymous Coward]

668 (or 664 would be the neighbor of the beast. 667 is accross the street.

They're building it out of Sicilians?

[Anonymous Coward]

That would never work! They would always take breaks or kill each other! I wouldn't drive on that!

But what is the current ferry service like?

[MtViewGuy]

I have to wonder what is the current ferry service like between Sicily and the Italian mainland.

Has there been talk of upgrading the ferries to very large ships like they do on the English Channel crossings?

Re:But what is the current ferry service like?

[Wudbaer]

I have to admit that I haven't traveled between mainland Italy and Messina (Silicy) by ferry since 1995, but my parents went down there for vacation two years ago and apparently nothing much has changed.

The big difference between the Channel ferries and the Messina-Mainland ferries is that the Strait of Messina is much narrower than the Channel (I think about 3-5 km at the narrowest point), making for comparatively short travel times (I'm not sure , but I think it was not longer than 30 min one trip, rather shorter). So IMO a lot of time would be lost for loading and unloading bigger ferries while not necessary gaining much in overall transport capacity. Also the train ferries are quite big for my standards, should almost be comparable to the average channel ferry.

Also one can get quite large transport capacities if one uses a lot of smaller ferries as I have observed during trips to Turkey around Istanbul and the Marmara Sea. They have lots of smaller car ferries constantly going back and forth, thus bringing over a considerable amount of cars, really big trucks and people in a amazingly short amount of time.

A funny thing about the Strait of Messina train ferries: As they belong to the Italian Railroad, but carry also walk-on passengers (not only people coming in by train) they calculate the fare by the normal Italian railroad tarifs, which are very inexpensive (at least compared to Germany where I am living). This allowed me to invite by back-then girlfriend to world cheapest leisure cruise for about USD 1,- each round-trip. :-) Really was fun.

Confederation Bridge in Canada

[Toshito]

Have you seen the confederation bridge in Canada?

It's 13Km long...

Here is the website:

http://www.confederationbridge.com/

Re:Confederation Bridge in Canada

[Bullschmidt]

The confederation bridge isn't a suspension bridge. Thats why this is impressive. Suspension bridges typically have a much shorter span. You can't really compare the two. There is a bridge which is by no means spectacular in the San Francisco Bay area (the San Mateo Bridge) which is about 10 miles long, so 13Km isn't really all that long.

Re:Confederation Bridge in Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

But that 13km is a record for ice covered waters. IIRC, each of the piers are designed for something like 200 tons of side load. In spring there can be some serious ice drifting down the Northumberland Strait. The bridge itself is being used for ice force research http://www.eng.ucalgary.ca/Civil/ice/CBridge.htm .

There was similiar social opposition on this bridge; e.g. concern the bridge would "change the Island way of life".

Translated to Italian for your Maffioso friends

[Anonymous Coward]

La costruzione di un ponticello discutibile della sospensione che collega l'isola mediterranea della Sicilia al continente italiano comincerà in tre anni e dovrebbe essere completata entro 2010, primo ministro italiano Silvio Berlusconi annunciato.

Ci è decisione del Berlusconi eccessivo di dubbi serii

I programmi per costruire un ponticello voluminoso che misura gli straits di Messina resalgono almeno tre decadi.

Se è costruita mai, il ponticello sarà uno dei più gran e la maggior parte del costoso pubblico-funziona i progetti intrapresi mai in Italia.

L'ultima valutazione è $4,5 miliardo, ma i pagamenti di interesse potrebbero guidare questa figura in su considerevolmente.

Il governo progetta convincere l'investimento riservato per coprire più della metà di costo complessivo in cambio delle tasse del tributo.

Ma ci è stato scetticismo considerevole nel mondo di affari circa l'attuabilità finanziaria del progetto.

Reazione mixed

Il ponticello sarà di lunghezza cinque chilometri e la relativa portata centrale - sostenuta da quattro cavi d'acciaio ciascuno quasi una tester-e-un-metà di diametro - misurerà oltre tre chilometri.

Aumenterà 64m sopra il livello del mare e conterrà una doppia strada principale del sei-vicolo e quattro piste per una linea ferroviaria di nuova alta velocità progettata per collegare il capitale siciliano, Palermo, con il resto dell'Italia.

La reazione alla decisione del sig. Berlusconi da andare avanti con il ponticello è stata mescolata.

I coordinatori ed i politici in Sicilia hanno detto il ponticello significherebbe che l'isola più non sarebbe isolata dal resto di Europa.

Ma il partito verde dell'Italia ha detto che era ridiculous spendere tali somme astronomiche sul ponticello quando molto Sicilians è rimasto senza un rifornimento idrico adeguato e le strade dell'isola sono male necessitante ammodernamento.

Nice, but will never happen...

[Anonymous Coward]

Too much of a security concern... that's one big, hard to defend target.

Also, it would have to be engineered to take over 200 mile an hour winds just incase of an errant storm (not likely at all), as well as have expansion capabilities since the straight has been spreading an inch a year for over 2000 years.

Simpsons

[geekoid]

"I don't get mad, I get stabby." Fat Tony

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, the correct spelling is Meter. When your country can nuke us or outspend us economically, we will spell it your way.

Next please

Comments from Italy...

[VDM]

From the political opposition to the government, the major criticisms regard the fact that both Sicily and Calabria are still lacking waterpipes and clean water at home and other "commodities", which perhaps could be easily provided with the enormous amount of money needed for building the bridge...
Let's say, another great promise, which will be discussed on the media and give still more and more visibility to Berlusconi, although perhaps it is not likely to be fulfilled.

Bye,

Enzo

Re:Have we learned nothing?

[ozbon]

Aren't the extremists already living in the caves?

Oh no, they're not living there any more, are they? :)

nya, nya, my bridge is 24 *MILES*

[nesthigh]

From http://www.thecauseway.com/

"Each weekday 30,000 cars cross Lake Pontchartrain on the longest over-water bridge in the world, The Lake Pontchartrain Causeway."

"The most familiar part of the system is the 24-mile long bridge which consists of two, 2-lane spans running parallel across Lake Pontchartrain connection Jefferson Parish on the South Shore and St. Tammany Parish on the North Shore. "

Next

Re:nya, nya, my bridge is 24 *MILES*

[Anonymous Coward]

And you can row your little toy boat under it too.

> From http://www.thecauseway.com/

5 km is Peanuts

[Kombat]

5 km? P-shaw. Take a look at the Confederation Bridge linking PEI and New Brunswick. Canadians know how to build real bridges. :)

(For those too lazy to Google, the Confederation bridge is over 13 km long)

Re:5 km is Peanuts

[DrVxD]

For those that don't (or can't) read, the confederation bridge ISN'T a suspension bridge.

Re:5 km is Peanuts

[Kombat]

Oh, well that changes everything! 5km is WAAAAY more than 12.9 km. I don't know what I was thinking!

Fucking genius.

That post was ment to be a stimulus

[teraun]

Not exacly, sir. I have lived in a town where we have seen mafia only on tv, just like you did.
But newspapers and tv remembered us that the southern town were I used to live was an oasis in a rotten area (southern Italy). Mafia most likely does not have reason and incentives to expand in the northern side. There is indeed suspicion about a southern Italian when we move to the north. And I do understand them( better safe than sorry;).

Mafia has three names, just like crap has several synonims: Mafia in Sicily,Camorra in Campania, N'drangheta in Calabria, and Sacra(whatever...) Corona Unita in Puglia.Many shops of Sicily, Calabria, Campania and Puglia have to pay a "tax" to the gangs (although, I believe it only happens in the large cities). Mafia does exist and harm anyone it touches.For example, mafia 's associates always get to win local public constructions bids(of Sicily, Calabria, Campania and Puglia). It is a disease to the free market, and to the prosperity of the south.Some southern Italians(the most ignorant ones) blame the government of the unemployment and the crime we have; but the real ones to blame are those losers with a gun.

I am from southern Italy and I know how it feels when one ASSOCIATES Italy to mafia.By the way, most of the mafia is though to be in southern Italy.At least , that's what I have understood from the news. And , actually, south of Italy is where mafia homicides occur(I approve when they kill each other, that'd be fine :). I take the previous post as a stimulus. As long as people talk this bad of Italy, I believe, there will be a stimulus to do better.

Mavachagher, terun. ;-)

Re:That post was ment to be a stimulus

[boomer_rehfield]

"As long as people talk this bad of Italy" It's considered a joke, and not without merit. Having grown up in Naples and seen the Comorra first hand, I can't see any reason why someone would not comment/joke about the crime rate. We had a hit in our back yard for crying out loud. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE Italy, but I am not going to call it something it's not. "See Naples and Die" was created back in the 60's and still stands today.

Denmark rules again

[Anonymous Coward]

In other regions water joins cultures. It'd make an interesting study about how changes transportation and transportation technologies change and define cultures. You're going from a 3 node network (start-boat/plane-arrive) to a 2 node one.

You could study the same issue in S. Sweden and E. Denmark. Being long ago populated by boat-oriented people, the nowdays Swedish provinces of Halland, Blekinge and Scania used to belong to Denmark until the mid 1600s. Sweden took it and kept it, but now there is a bridge connecting the two and many towns and cities in Scania are rapidly turning to suburbs of Copenhagem. Housing prices are getting more Danish. Outgoing foreign mail from as far as the next province north in Sweden gets outsourced to Denmark.

Hopefully the Sicilians will learn from the Danish bridge and not waste extra lanes on cars, but use them for trains instead. No one smart enough to read a road sign is going to take their car into a congested capital, when it's shorter to drive around it and alternatives like taxis, buses and trains exist. Planners (intentionally?) underestimated the popularity of the train between Sweden and Denmark and have not provided enough cars nor frequent enough departures duriing peak hours, so during rush hour it's frequently as crowded as a New York subway.

Re:Denmark rules again

[Uart]

This is very true. The best way to travel from the Jersey Shore (the US State, not the Channel Island) to New York City is via Ferry. I often take the Fast Ferry into the city, and its very convenient when traveling to see a NY Yankees game.

Anyway, while bridges and tunnels between NY and NJ remain propular, they are certainly not the quickest or most convenient way to get to the city.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[babbage]

For the most part, they aren't *supposed* to bend. Yes, there will be a slight arc to it, but the stress on the cables is going to be much more from pulling than flexing. The metal used needs to be relatively stiff in terms of flexing, but more importantly it has to resist stretching as a load is applied to it.

I took a tour of Boston's Big Dig project a couple of weeks ago, including the Leonard Zakim cable-stayed bridge across the Charles River. The head engineer for the project went over the design considerations, including the properties they needed in the cables. He showed us a few different kinds of cable, including ones meant to flex, ones meant to be stiff, etc.

Ultimately, it seems like a fascinating materials science problem. You spec out what properties you want your bridge to have (amount of traffic, hence average & maximum weight load, resistance to winds & seismic activity, etc) and then find cables that can support that specification. For the Zakim bridge, the inner cables will be under a light load, and won't be twisting much, so the cable needed doesn't need to be as strong. The top/long cables have to be able to flex, resist 200+ mph winds, and will be bearing the greatest load, so the steel chosen for the purpose is picked to match these needs. It's all quantitative science, not guesswork, and I'm sure the prople designing the Sicilian bridge are just as clueful.

Obligatory Dean Martin Song:That's Amore!

[t0qer]

(In Napoli where love is king
When boy meets girl here's what they say)

When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie
That's amore
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's amore
Bells will ring ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll sing "Vita bella"
Hearts will play tippy-tippy-tay, tippy-tippy-tay
Like a gay tarantella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool
That's amore
When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli
That's amore

(When the moon hits you eye like a big pizza pie
That's amore
When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine
That's amore
Bells will ring ting-a-ling-a-ling, ting-a-ling-a-ling
And you'll sing "Vita bella"
Hearts will play tippy-tippy-tay, tippy-tippy-tay
Like a gay tarantella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool)
That's amore
(When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli)
That's amore
Lucky fella

When the stars make you drool just like a pasta fazool)
That's amore
(When you dance down the street with a cloud at your feet
You're in love
When you walk down in a dream but you know you're not
Dreaming signore
Scuzza me, but you see, back in old Napoli)
That's amore, (amore)
That's amore

Re:Obligatory Dean Martin Song:That's Amore!

[Anonymous Coward]

luckily I'm a northern italian, not a redneck... :)

I never liked that song..

Can you say terrorist target?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the demographic figures I've seen, the native Italian population is not reproducing, and in about 30 years, Italy will become a Muslim nation. Even if the birth rate changes, they will still be plagued by a large and growing population of terrorists. Can you imagine the resources Al Qaeda will expend in an attempt to bring this sucker to its knees?

Re:Can you say terrorist target?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the demographic figures I've seen, the native Italian population is not reproducing, and in about 30 years, Italy will become a Muslim nation.
Well, do no fear, it's going that way with most European countries anyway, if you look at the numbers. I am sure by then the integration process of imigrants should work well.

Impossibly cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Seattle (USA) we are looking at various road improvement projects. All have price tags in the 5-10 billion dollar range and none are as ambitious as this bridge.

Our region is looking at adding two new lanes to a suburban interstate. The 30 miles of additions are expected to cost between 9 and 10 billion dollars. (www.seattletimes.com, June 4). And the Italians are expecting to build their bridge for half that? We'd love that kind of bargain here! We are also looking at replacing 3 miles of a raised highway and that alone will cost 3-5 billion (ibid). If we replace it with a 4 lane tunnel, the cost goes to 11 billion. Maybe we should just hire the Italians to replace it with a couple of bridges instead?

It sounds like Seattle's transportation budget could run the entire Italian road system. Or is Berlusconi trying trying to push the project through by understating its cost?

No problem

[maroberts]

The bridge is going to be able to handle trains (several hundred tons each) and a 6 lane highway, probably including HGVs (IIRC, current Euro limit 38tonnes). A few 60 tonne tanks aren't going to give it any problem.

Anyway, a army bridge master(forget the true title) wouldn't allow all the tanks to cross at the same time - its to inviting a target for an attacking aircraft.

Re:No problem

[RKloti]

a army bridge master(forget the true title)

The word you are looking for is pontonier

Sheathe it with aluminum foil then

[Anonymous Coward]

So just sheathe the kevlar with aluminum foil or something like that. Sheesh.

Re:Sheathe it with aluminum foil then

[BitHive]

Proof you're not a civil works engineer:

So just sheathe the kevlar with aluminum foil or something like that. Sheesh.

QED.

Re:Sheathe it with aluminum foil then

[Anonymous Coward]

Proof you're not a civil works engineer:
So just sheathe the kevlar with aluminum foil or something like that. Sheesh.

There's prolly enough in your hat to do the whole bridge.

Re:Sheathe it with aluminum foil then

[Andy Dodd]

Maybe not aluminum foil, but if you ever bothered to look at a suspension bridge instead of sitting here flaming people, you'd notice that in most cases the cables are sheathed by something (Looks like some form of pipe, but I can't tell for sure.) Whatever it is, it would be sufficient to block UV from reaching any Kevlar inside.

Serious Blow to Self Esteem

[dgenr8]

I grew up with my parents telling me the Golden Gate bridge had the longest span of any suspension bridge in the world. I thought I remembered hearing that it had been surpassed, but now I find out that even when they were telling me this (the 1970's) it was a lie!

Ah those youthful prejudices die hard.

Re:Serious Blow to Self Esteem

[DrVxD]

Have pity on your parents - They probably made the same mistake that a frighteningly large number of Americans do in equating "world==USA".

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[mikerich]

Amazingly, the cable is constructed on site. First of all they send over a single strand of cable from tower to tower (an achievement in itself). Then they use a 'cable spinner' which shuttles across the bridge carrying another length of cable behind it. As the spinner moves along, it twists the new cable round the existing cable, building it up a strand at a time.

When the cable is finished its clad to protect it from corrosion.

I'd love to know who thought of it, because it is just an incredibly elegant solution.

Anyone know?

Best wishes,
Mike.

all large suspension bridges do this

[AdamBa]

This fact was trumpeted for the Verrazano-Narrows bridge, the Humber Bridge, the Akashi-Kaikyo bridge, etc, etc. I guess it is cool but not unique for a bridge over 4000 feet central span.

- adam

Re:all large suspension bridges do this

[Anonymous Coward]

The VZ towers are tilted 1/16th of an inch away from each other.

WTC Photos Here

Hey, that's better than using silicone!

[Guru2Newbie]

Good thing, too. They'd have to divert the flow from Silicone Valley (aka the San Fernando Valley in Southern California).

Although...a silicone bridge could have benefits:
-being soft & bouncy, it would muffle traffic noise
- automatic "soft studs" would rise through the surface in cold or wet weather.
- If pedestrians fell on the surface, they'd bounce back (or be found, hours later, on their hands and knees, continually rubbing the surface, cooing "Ooooooh! Soft studs!" until traffic safety engineers forcibly removed them).

strange looking computer rendering

[AdamBa]

The near tower is angled all wrong, you see the wrong side of it. I guess whoever drew that didn't know much about perspective.

- adam

Try that bridge on a train...

[Guru2Newbie]

I went across that bridge on the Amtrak train, twice. Water seemed to be a few feet away, and I couldn't even see the tracks/rail ties below us, just water. A really thrilling ride!

Wife was terrified, wouldn't look out the window. I was thinking..."If this train jumps the tracks, we're all fish-bait!"

modern bridge deck design

[AdamBa]

Most modern suspension bridges have gone back to the thin deck instead of the heavy truss, but they make the deck aerodynamic in cross-section to handle the wind. The East Belt bridge in Denmark is like this. Only the Japanese (in some cases, like Akashi-Kaikyo, but not some of the other large ones they have built recently) and the Americans (theoretically, since they have stopped building long-span suspension bridges) still prefer the deep truss.

You would think the narrow deck would look nicer but I like the truss actually. Plus I have not seen a recent bridge (since the Verrazano-Narrows in 1964) that really looked nice, due to ugly tower design or other issues. And don't get me started on cable-stayed, if there has been an elegant looking one built, I have missed it. The Pont de Normandie is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen. Where is Christo when you need him.

- adam

Yoda says the Sicilians play Doom?

[Guru2Newbie]

Doom will the unique tradition of Sicilly [be].

Is this Yoda's proclamation about the Sicilian's game playing future?

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[NewbieV]

Here's a good discussion of how it's done... from the Invention Factory

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[poot_rootbeer]

A meter (I'm American--that's how we spell it)

Funny -- I'm an American too, and I spell it Y-A-R-D...

Bungee

[gCGBD]

They should be sure to build a parking area, and gift and snack shop in the middle.
The bungee jumpers (and other jumpers) and their spectators, could be a market to cater to and help pay for the bridge.

They should also plan on ways to hook flags and signs on the bridge for tall ship extravaganzas and parades.

Lastly, they shouldn't forget to bring in Spiderman as a consultant just in case they need him later for a daring rescue...

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[IanO]

A yard is only 0.944 metres... your bridge would collapse.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[IanO]

Whoops... that would be 0.9144 metres in a yard.

Big Traffic in Little Sicily

[hda]

"Its highway platform can bear a traffic flow of 9,000 vehicles per hour, i.e. more than 140,000 vehicles in 24 hours. The double track railway can allow the passage of 200 trains a day."

WOW!

I guess poor sicily will be overcrowded within a fortnight.

Re:Big Traffic in Little Sicily

[tyler_larson]

I guess poor sicily will be overcrowded within a fortnight.

That's assuming that people are travelling in. :)

muslim population

[dtosti]

the muslim population isn't so huge as you can imagine. on 57 millions of inhabitants, only 800000 are muslim. 1,5 % A very huge percentage, indeed... :)

(Clandestine immigrants aren't counted, of course.)

4.9 million is small

[hotsauce]

Sorry, 4.9 million is small, especially compared to a country. Heck, many cities have populations greater than that.

Re:4.9 million is small

[boomer_rehfield]

"Sorry, 4.9 million is small, especially compared to a country." See, it's funny cause it's not a country...

Re:4.9 million is small

[DrVxD]

> Sorry, 4.9 million is small, especially compared to a country. Heck, many cities have populations greater than that.

Err, but its also about 10 times the population of the (geographically) largest state in the US.
And (if memory serves) about 1000 times the 'normal' population of a whole continent (Antarctica). So actually 4.9 million isn't all that small.

Milanese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Padania == Schifo

Vafangulo, stronsito! Lega Nord sono terroristichi.

Re:Milanese?

[boomer_rehfield]

I think this just clears up the fact that any kind of bridge between two Italian regions probably isn't a good idea... ; )

David Steinman's dream

[AdamBa]

Steinman was the chief designer of the Mackinac Bridge, and the Messina Straits bridge was his dream. Unfortunately he died (long) before it became feasible either technically or politically.

I gather that the Mackinac Bridge, the Confederation Bridge in PEI, and maybe some others have the occasional person who shows up and then is too nervous to drive across. So a toll booth attendant drives them over.

- adam

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[sunking2]

The sheer weight (mass if you want to be anal) of the cable is enough to bend it over such a long weight. That 16oz hammer seems pretty light until you attach it to the end of a 2 meter long pole and try to hold it straight out.

Or, in Crocodile Hunter lingo, even the strongest snakes in the world can lift up and bite you in the nose if you pick them up and hold them by the tail. No idea if this is really true or not, but I believe I've heard something along those lines.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[rmohr02]

That should be modded up, but oh well. And I just went through a year of physics wherein as soon as we got a measurement in any English unit, we were to immediately change it to SI. Sort of a habit now.

So we have a chance...

[Anonymous Coward]

Eliminate the filthy animals!

Please mod parent to +5 Informative. Tks.

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Re: affecting culture

[Anonymous Coward]

That has nothing to do with geography... everyone hates the english.

poorest region of italy

[dtosti]

oh really? :)

as far as i know the most poor region of italy isn't sicily anymore (due to hard investment by STMicroelectronics, Nokia and other electronics firms), but Calabria, the peninsula at the other end of the Strait of Messina.

And Calabria is more richer than the poorest region of Portugal....

Re:poorest region of italy

[boomer_rehfield]

*shrug* Italy's money isn't going to Portugal, so that's a moot point yes? Italy's money goes to Italy, so then we find the best way to spend it there....yes?

Re:poorest region of italy

[dtosti]

no, European Union collect money from customs tolls and VAT payed between two different EU countries. This money is redistribuited to the EU members according to the local needs. It seems that Greece, Italy and Portugal usually have some more money than the other countries.

Re:poorest region of italy

[boomer_rehfield]

Ahhh... I see now. I haven't been there since the European Union... Thanks for clearing it up.

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Anonymous Coward]

As the spinner moves along, it twists the new cable round the existing cable, building it up a strand at a time.

Actually they're not twisted around each other -- they all lay parallel. At the end of the process, they're cinched together into a round shape by a device which which goes around the whole bunch almost at right angles pulling tightly on another single strand of about the same size. Think of binding a handful of welding rods together by closely wrapping them with something like venetian bllind cord where each turn of cord lays right up against the previous turn.

Europe and Africa

[XNormal]

If the Gibralter Bridge is ever built, I predict it to be an incredible boost to the economies of both Europe and Africa. Industry in Europe could gain by getting cheap labor in Africa, while nations in Africa will receive heavy investments - Improving their infrastructure. Surely it would be a Win-Win situation for both Africa and Europe.

Perhaps if Carthago had triumphed over Rome it would have been the other way around...

Re:Sicilian Suspension Bridge...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're built up from smaller cables. To quote the web-site:

In the central span, each cable is formed by 88 strands having a diameter of 13.5 cm. Each of them is formed by 44,352 elementary wires with a diameter of 5.38 mm.

Re: affecting culture

[Anonymous Coward]

oh please, you self-important mods wasted a mod point making this OFF TOPIC? no wonder there's no community here