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TIA Project to End
Marnhinn writes "MSNBC is reporting that the Terrorism Spying Project (also known as TIA) is dead. The government is cancelling most of the project and changing the rest to focus on people outside the United States." TIA had been on death's door for a while, but now it's finally official. Some of the programs will still be around, however, they will just be shifted over to different departments.
...and I don't think I'm hugely paranoid about evil government and so on, but I suspect most of the things that TIA was going to do are probably already going on in one form or another behind the scenes.
Maybe the only good thing about formalising it would be that at least there'd be some sort of accountability...
Game dev and music blog
So its 'officially' cancelled...I have a hard time believe that the government thought it was important/useful, and now everyone has agreed that we don't need it, and has moved on.
So now there's no offical TIA project...that just means they can hide bits and pieces of it in other projects.
If they want the data, they'll get it.
Our freedoms are retained for a little while longer as Big Brother is deported.
Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
But this might signal a weakening of the "Patriot Laws". I for one wouled like to see SkyNet, I meant the Patriot Laws cut back or even cut out. Spying on your own people is what Hitler did... We all know how that one ends.
md5sum
d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
Cheney: It's getting better!
...
ACLU: No it isn't
And the conspicuous use of the phrase 'anti-terrorism' does send up a red flag, being the standard incantation with which assaults on the liberties and privacy of ordinary citizens are justified. "The MATRIX pilot project is an effort to increase and enhance the exchange of sensitive terrorism and other criminal activity information between local, state, and federal agencies," the project Web site explains. The system will use "data analysis and data integration technology to improve the usefulness of information contained in multiple types of document storage systems." From that it would appear that the scheme is designed to give the Feds what they're not allowed to get simply by re-packaging it and selling it through a back channel. It also looks designed to find and prosecute, perhaps persecute, unfortunate bastards in the name of the American anti-terror Jihad.
Sounds like TIA wasn't so bad after all.
Doesn't Godwin's Law dictate that this thread ends with your post? (Assuming, of course, you were not deliberately trying to invoke it, which negates its effect)
I don't know about this. If it were truly scrapped, then it would be a wonderful thing. More likely, however, it's simply being driven underground.
Once granted power, no government ever gives it up willingly. That's the whole point of limited government, and it's why I doubt that this is really being cancelled. I'd watch the budget for next year, to see if the infamous black budget suddently grows by the same amount that TIA would have gotten.
You're welcome.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
This is great, but let's not forget that there is always CAPPS II, which is just the TIA in disguise!
The article neglects to mention that some states have begun implementing their own version of TIA (see The Washington Post article). There appears to be some feeling that they can sneak in under the radar if it's not a federal program.
The pledges of restraint by Florida law enforcement officials are particularly comforting.
or does it just make it tolerable?
See, TIA is dead, honest *waves hands*. You made a big fuss over nothing. We're the government, we're here to help you. Now move along, thank you.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I for one welcome our evil american overlords!
The program still continues on non-citizens while they are in the U.S.
From the article linked (emphasis mine):
But they shifted some of the high-powered software under development to different government offices, to be used to gather intelligence from U.S. citizens abroad and foreigners in this country and abroad.
PS, it's privilege. Personally, I feel that all TIA funding should be funnelled to remedial spelling and grammar classes for today's youth.
TIA is too valuable to die. It's the best weapon bureaucrats have to preserve their jobs, and that is the number one priority of any bureaucrat. Public service is at best a second priority, and usually not even that.
c les/2003/09/25/irs_considers_giving_data_to_other_ agencies/
Consider this article from today's news: IRS considers giving data to other agencies: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/arti
The biggest threat to America and its freedoms is not from Dictators, but from the bureaucrats who "want to help us".
So how long will it be before I start seeing T1 lines failing again when they start removing the wiretaps?
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
MSNBC, firstly, is not a trusty news source. They have their own agenda, and I for one think it's absolute bullshit.
With that said, they are restructuring, not eliminating, the program. America's had black op's since the turn of the century, it's just now we have black op's teams in every town police department (they're called swat teams btw) and they have the right to do just about anything they want to you. Just be glad most are incompetant and poorly equiped. They know we don't like the idea and they think if they go farther underground and don't announce their programs so proudly we won't notice.
TIA goes away, something else takes it's place. The goverment has already been engauging in black op's against it's own people and there's ample evidence of that. More often than not, they'll break into someone's house and shoot a poor guy full of holes for sitting up in their bed (or they'll claim they tried to shoot first, plant a gun, etc). If you've read any cia manuals on the subject you'd get a good idea of how they engauge in black op's against people and how a TIA system would be able to find possible ursurpers/targets. All of these manuals, handily enough, are available on p2p apps (they are useful for more than music and pr0n you know).
They've been clamping down and in some cases outright killing ufo crazies who aren't so crazy, high art makers are getting screwed as well. Ex-military nuts who eat rations and have plenty of weapons are having all of those weapons confiscated overnight, with the nuts being thrown into prison or descretly eliminated or, better yet, thrown into insane asylums since they can't charge him with a crime. Same goes for anyone with a record of having excellent computer skills that may have the skills to potentially compromise sensative files in goverment databases.
In otherwords, anyone who's a threat by themselves is being eliminated without the news media picking up on it. All the media we get in the US is owned either by MSNBC, General Electric, Aol Time Warner, or 1 other I can't remember the name of. They all own stock in eachother, anlthough AOL Time Warner will occasionally publish a story about, for example, GE's frankencrops being picketed in france. We've got a lot of smaller publications on the internet, thankfully, and there's still a number of local newspapers around, but still, a good 90% of the media is owned and operated by these corperations which means we don't get the information that really matters. Goverment is going to spy on it's citizenry? Who cares, Briteny spears' new album has sold more copys than any other in history!!!
Call me crazy, it keeps me on my toes. It's going to be interesting to see if the US goverment can pull this off but somehow I don't think they'll be able to do it. If 50 million americans can pull together to support the do not call list, they can do the same to screw the goverment. People are not in general as stupid as the US school system makes us out to be.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
TIA in Spain is about Mortadelo & Filemon, very different indeed:
s p
http://www.mortadeloyfilemon.com/club/default.a
The government is cancelling most of the project and changing the rest to focus on people outside the United States.
Oh great, I moved to the UK from the US to get away from TIA.
... the best place on earth to be a free terrorist.
Actually, being an American is a privilege, but we extent the pre-existing rights protected by our constitution to the terrorists that are in out land illegaly.
I'm sorry that your inferiority complex has you hating America, Americans, and Our President.
Anybody who thinks for a minute that TIA is going away as long as Ashcroft is AG is high. This isn't a retreat, it's a regrouping before the next attack. As has been discussed here before, we will see this thing pop up again, medusa-like, under a variety of disguises; they'll be tracking child molesters, deadbeat dads, drug dealers, rapists, what have you, and each will be a noble enterprise, as difficult to criticize as a newborn baby. (No mention of rogue librarians will be made, for sure.) Behind the scenes, of course, will be the massive data-mining that was the original goal. We'll only hear about THAT part incidentally, incrementally, accidentally, etc-ally.
To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
"And then there was the office of strategic influence. [...] I went down that next day and said fine, if you want to savage this thing fine I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done and I have." - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2002-11-18, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2002/t11212002_ t1118sd2.html
This always happens.
It's called the gov't moving the project out of the spotlight and into active-but-secret service.
But say, why does NASA need so many new $10,000 hammers and toilet seats?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The link is actually an Associated Press story. It's also covered by AFP and will soon be picked up by others. The editors could sharpen up and not keep plugging lame sites or voluntarily giving MS a monopoly over your news sources as well.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Just one petabyte of computer data could fill the Library of Congress more than 50 times.
How comforting, here we go again!
As a side note, does that mean the volume of 1 PB of storage would fill up the Library of Congress? it doesn't really clarify that to the masses ;-)
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
So, let's review: our "black ops" teams have infiltrated "every town police department" in the guise of SWAT teams -- the elite local police. However, these elite police units located in every town in the U.S. are also "incompetent and poorly equipped." They've got the funding to be in every police force, but they don't have money for equipment? DO tell.
Hear that? It's the sound of the black helicopters, coming for you. Better get down in the shelter, bud.
I think that the whole spying thing can be summed up with a poster the Security Officer at one of my Navy commands had on his wall.
"Countries do not have friends, only interests."
-------------------------
As easy as herding cats!
"The government is cancelling most of the project and changing the rest to focus on people outside the United States."
I'm glad that they're going back to worrying about enemy combatants and foreign powers rather than trying to wage war on its own citizens.
What an f'n concept...
I am now looking to buy that french deck of cards - cood be a very insightful gift here in North America (especially here in Canada) for people who has not completely lost the sense of humor :)
Less is more !
So, the US has stopped the part of the project that has to do with people who are more likely to vote. Why not on Americans abroad? Are they more likely to be terrorists? And foreigners who live in the US?
What are american companies supposed to do? Suppose I am Visa. Should I give out information on my foreign customers who do not live in the US? Example: in many European countries, credit reporting agencies can not be established because they would be in violation of privacy laws. How would the information be gathered? If we stick to publicly available sources, you can't get very far in Europe, and I don't see foreign companies giving out data to the american government. So, my take is that they are publicly saying the they closing it (elections are getting closer) and they will do it in another way. Or... they have completed it and they do not need new funds.
I see that the US institutions are increasingly becoming xenophobic, which seems to pay off. Nothing unites more than a common enemy. Now, if you are a foreigner you can be detained indefinitely with no charge as long as somebody suspects that you are a terrorist. Now you can be spied upon at will, and I am already excited by the Patriot Act II which will restrict some more freedoms.
That no one has posted a
Netcraft delivered another bombshell to the beleagured US intelligence services, *TIA is dying.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
And sadly, the Slashdot moderators regard opinions that non-Americans or Americans not on American soil might deserve the same treatment as Americans on American soil (RTFA, those exact words are used) to be Flamebait. Don't want to rock the Fox News boat now, do we.
How long till the get the bright idea to keep
"updating" the census data in real-time? They could just say that they are tring to improve their "data set."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Can I please have some of what the moderators have been smoking today. Since when have spelling flames been funny? Fuck this, I'm going back to Usenet.
Funding for "top secret programs" was increased today by 50 billion dollars. No details were provided due to "security concerns."
Yes, TIA is kaput. Sure. Go back to sleep now..
They just killed it off in name. It's more than alive and well under an alias. Just like "Carnivore" is now operating under "DCS1000"
None of this news is comforting to my ears at all. All that I hear is that some rogue program is about to be put on the shoulders of an even more secretive group. At least before we could put a name and an elected official behind each 'program'. This is no good.
Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
TIA: "I'm not dead!"
US Citizen: "Here, he says he's not dead."
US Government: "Yes, he is."
TIA: "I'm NOT!"
US Citizen: "He isn't?"
US Government: "He will be soon. He's very ill."
TIA: "I'm getting better."
US Government: "No you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment."
US Citizen: "Look, I can't take him like this."
TIA: "I don't want to go on the cart."
US Government: "Oh don't be such a baby."
US Citizen: "I can't take him."
TIA: "I think I'll go for a walk."
US Government: "You're not fooling anyone you know."
yada yada yada...
;-p
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
... the USA abusing its baserights in my country (its ally) still further to spy on its allies popluation with these nifty new tools. What this ammounts to is that the USA's 1984 style surveillance has been reduced in scope, refocused and that the current US administration has (reluctantly) decided to define civil liberties as something that is only valid if you are a US citizen on US soil. I suppose that democracy and civil liberties are for everyone, but Non US citizens in general and US citizens abroad are only entitled to the limited edtition.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
This sounds very much like the plan to build a twin engine mach 6 spy plane that will be all black and have some cool name like 'blackbird'.
The blackbird didn't 'oficially' exist for decades... but that kind of thing would never happen again, right?
Just as irrigation is the lifeblood of the Southwest, lifeblood is the soup of cannibals. -- Jack Handy
If it's cancelled then why did I read this article two days ago?
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Slashdot editors should not be using their infinite mod points to suppress genuine discussion that disagrees with their political opinions. Save it for the real trolls guys.
Powerful surveillance technologies in the hands of Western security organizations are the thermonuclear deterrent of the present day. They are expensive, unpopular, and capable of being used for any number of great evils - but they are the only alternative to the maintenance of enormous conventional forces designed to fight brutal and exhausting wars of occupation.
It's not that TIA has died - it's that it has been moved into the secret realm and given to people who have the stomach to run it. Use of technologies like TIA is the best option we have available to defend the comfortable lives we lead and to provide hope for improving the lives of people around the world through economic prosperity driven by the engine of Western markets. Could it be used for terrible evil? Yes. Will it be? That's a question of good government - government by individuals who can handle the seriousness of the moral issues involved without panicking and fleeing in terror.
H4x0r Economist - k33ping d3m0cr4cy l33t 51Nc3 1987
Because, the beta test shows biggest terrorist in the world
USA....
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
Time to take the tin foil hat off!!
now that I have been a reclusive-noninternet using citizen, I can finally see slashdot!!
so what is this linux thing all about?
Linux: Helping nerds look smarter since the late 90s.
TIA really means: Tanks In Advance
This thing has more lives than Freddy Kruger, Michael Myers and a hundredweight of cats put together. Don't count on it being well and truly dead until someone gets voted into office who wants to see it dead and has the political clout to shoot it with a silver bullet, drive a stake through its heart, hack its body into little bitty pieces and bury it twelve feet down in the shadow of a church at midnight.
Someone you trust is one of us.
and that is all I have to say about that.
You can't handle the truth.
The program has been renamed MATRIX and is being implemented individualy by the states with federal funding.
Real classy bunch we've got there on the hill, eh?
Great so instead on yourselves you will now spy on the rest of us, who really have nothing to do with your f-ed up system? Great. Thanks a bundle.
From the Desk of the President
"I regret to accounce the project commonly known as the 'Total Information Awareness Act' sponsored by the Department of Homeland Security has been completely dismantled today due to budgetary constraints and consummate public outcry. While the project itself dismantled civil rights and destroyed personal privacy under an unaccountable veil of secrecy, my administration takes great pride in its unifying results.
Rarely in history have so many voices come together for a single cause. Rarely have the party lines been so obliterated for the common good. My administration takes sole responsibility for this unification and we will make it our number one goal to provide equally if not even more insideous legislation so all of the nation may once again shout out in a single voice! By the time my term is up there will be no 'Democrats' or 'Republicans', only 'us' and 'them'. Remember my election day promises when it's time to place your vote: I am a unifier, not a divider.
Was that correct, Mr. Cheney? OK, great."
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
I've read all the posts up to this one, and everyone has had the same reaction: The U.S. government is lying when it says it has stopped its plan to spy on U.S. citizens. But where is the intensity? Everyone seems to be taking it a little too calmly.
If a government does not serve its citizens, that government is corrupt. If a government lies to its citizens, that government is corrupt.
I'm doing my part to discuss the mistakes of the U.S. government. For example, I collected this information: History surrounding the U.S. war with Iraq: Four short stories. Basically, when a government allows some of its departments to act in secret, that government quickly begins to have problems with corruption.
Here's another contribution. It's not perfect, but it is something:
Lies about the U.S. -- Iraq War
- Violence is a good way to end violence.
- Americans should kill Iraqis to make them more peaceful.
- Before Saddam Hussein, there was no violence in Iraq. When Mr. Hussein is
no longer in power, Iraq will become a peaceful place.
- Killing Iraqis and destroying the infrastructure of that very poor country will have simple consequences. Killing people is an entirely clean social event, like on TV. Killing people has no effect on future relationships, or on the trust people put in those relationships.
- Americans are superior people who should decide the way the world should be run.
- Private oil companies should be allowed to take on unprofitable operations if U.S. taxpayers can be convinced to pay part of the cost so that the oil companies can make money.
The comic strip Sylvia for today, Friday, September 26, 2003 accuses U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft of conflict of interest and mismanagement. The Sylvia comic normally jokes about women. If Sylvia can talk about U.S. government corruption, you should not feel shy about making your own contribution.My idea about love of country: You don't really love your country unless you are willing to look at and understand areas where your country needs improvement. The same principle applies elsewhere. You don't really love your wife if you turn your back when she is having serious, difficult-to-understand problems. And, you don't really love yourself unless you try to understand and resolve your own inner conflict.
As I said, what I have written here is not perfect, but it IS something.
you may have mis-spelled your sig. Should be, "Dream Weaver".
And no, I don't mean that in a nice way.
-FL
It will just a a "black budget" item... it's just no longer a public budget line item. If every black budget item was up for public debate those would meet the same fate.
No, he wasn't. Tony Tether was and is. Poindexter was merely the director of DARPA's Information Awareness Office.
i was the one that modded you up
i could tell straight away that you were going to be swiped right back down by others though.
Damn, of all the days to not have mod points! :)
Dude, you need to remember to make your hats out of tin foil and not Saran Wrap(tm). That plastic will cut off your oxygen every single time, I gar-on-tee!
I submitted this story a full day ago, when it was still fresh news, as an Anonymous Coward. Kind of ironic, given the subject matter, that Slashdot apparently doesn't accept anonymous stories....
TIA Cancelled (Mostly)
According to this article, the Pentagon's controversial Total Information Awareness program has been cancelled due to congressional negotations. Slashdot has covered this issue repeatedly: July, July, June, May, April, (list all). So good news in general, but we've already heard of other ways they may get their way.
Let me guess, you'd also complain about MSNBC had the story been about a bunch of notoriously right-wing Americans publishing the same deck of cards with various French officials' pictures on it, right Mr. "Fair & Objective"?
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
DARPA's dreaded Total Information Awareness (TIA) program, formerly administered by convicted felon and Republican hero John Poindexter of Iran-Contra fame...
Very few articles about TIA seem to mention the fact that Poindexter is a person that cannot be trusted, or that he's associated with a political party that has pushed the notion of 'patriotism' onto a dangerous, rocky slope that has every American citizen under suspicion for possible terrorist activity. TIA will not provide any protection against terrorism, but if history is any indication, it will provide plenty of opportunity for abuse.
"Powerful surveillance technologies in the hands of Western security organizations are the thermonuclear deterrent of the present day." -The surveillance in question is directed domestically. Our WMD program is a deterrent for external threats. This is a big difference and leads to the question of who is the target and why. "...they are the only alternative to the maintenance of enormous conventional forces designed to fight brutal and exhausting wars of occupation." -I don't see how data mining techniques can maintain conventional forces. How does JetBlue receiving a notice that a "bad guy" is on board help a tank division in Iraq? "Use of technologies like TIA is the best option we have available to defend the comfortable lives we lead and to provide hope for improving the lives of people around the world through economic prosperity driven by the engine of Western markets." - First off, your response is begging the question that TIA works. Second, I don't understand why you posit such a strong connection between these technologies and global economic prosperity. Third, and more importantly, the statement is easier to agree with if you are one who would not be targeted by such technologies. Say, for example, if you were from Egypt and went to a mosque, you may not be so blase about TIA.
Napster is shut down, so the threat of peer to peer filesharing is over.
Sounds like someone needs a hug :)
3000+ comments meta-modded. 0 mod points awarded.
Lesson for other meta-suckers: Don't believe the hype!
So now instead of having a database of everything about everybody, the government will have a SECRET database of everything about everybody.
-----
Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
Not to mention that TIA wouldn't stop the arms industry in the slightest. --Look at Cold War Soviet practices; the entire population was engaged in reporting on itself; maids reporting on their their ladies, ladies reporting on their lovers, lovers reporting on their employers, ad infinitum. (I have friends who grew up in that world.) And how did any of that shit prevent the Soviet bloc from arming itself to the teeth? It didn't. In fact, it was key in promoting it.
You say, "Use of technologies like TIA is the best option we have available to defend the comfortable lives we lead and to provide hope for improving the lives of people around the world through economic prosperity driven by the engine of Western markets."
Holy shit. There is so much wrong with that statement, I'm not even sure where to begin. It's all wrong. All of it. Holy shit. Even if we were to assume that the posperity brought by the, 'Engine of the Western markets' is NOT a self-destroying myth, (the world is rapidly dying as a direct result of those engines, for goodness sake!), then the claim that TIA technologies is a panacea is by itself a stinking, rotton lie.
The use of TIA technologies is the chief way in that our 'comfortable' lives will cease to be comfortable. People in the West are so incredibly ignorant. --You can't buy child-like innocence of that sort! It's almost pretty. I think the most arrogant part is you blanket claim that Americans really are comfortable. Approximately 1 in 4 children in the U.S. does not get enough food, for crying out loud! But I digress. .
Very simply. . . After the secret police finish hunting down and getting rid of all the black spots in society, then the grey spots which remain will begin to look black. Then the blue and the green and the yellow spots.
Secret police are like any government agency; very quickly, they become self-serving. Its officers become fearful that their jobs will end and they lose their priviledges and power; that they will face unemployment. And so, they ALWAYS work to maintain their neccessity. Sounds simple to the point of being ridiculous, but the truth is that EVERYBODY reacts to the possibility of losing their line of income and support with gut-based fear. And most people over-react to that fear with vast irrationality; Lump into that the tendency for people to believe their own comfortable lies, and the spiral into police state mentality becomes terminal.
Furthermore, NOBODY in the current seats of American power have ANY interest in handling any of the current situations in the world, (which they created!), with any regard to. . , how did you put it, "the seriousness of the moral issues involved".
Please! Bush and his people are psychopathic liars. Period.
The world-view you painted was very pretty, full of the possibility and the hope that everything "might work out okay." It won't. Unless the American people haul the current administration out of their offices and put them in jail forever, it simply won't.
-FL
What you REALLY need is exformation. Exformation is the process of reducing, fusing, and combining data to form a corpus. In essence what you have is not as important as what is left over after you throw away the irrelevant.
No one has a good way of sifting through information like that. We all do it everyday to compress data down to what the conciousness can manipulate. But we don't know how we do it. Theories are but speculation now. For that matter it seems that most people don't do it particularly well. (Think about the last time you had an argument with someone where they were clearly pulling facts out of their ass, or worse, someone else's.)
Trying to implement the TIA would be more challenging that designing a robot to pass the Turing test. It would have to know that you can't push string. It would have to know that dead people can't commit crimes anymore. It would have to learn that causation is a theory that often does not hold up under practice. It would have to know that all truths contradict themselves, and that events have to be absorbed in the context of the period of history in which they transpired.
In short, you would have to emulate not just a human brain, but the brain of an enlightened individual.
And if anyone understands Taoism, enlightenment cannot even be described. How on Earth would you code it? Machine code has an even stricter syntax than human speach.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
I'm glad TIA is gone, but MATRIX, which is state sponsored, collects essentially the same information and is receiving funding from the Justice Dept. for it's development. The Gov seems darn determined to monitor us, no matter what we think.
Unfortunately, it's almost certain that the program will continue under some other name(s) and budget(s). That's how these projects work. I could go into specific examples from recent decades but not in this forum. If you dig deep enough in the federal budgets for the next few years you'll find programs funded that have the various pieces of TIA system components in them. CAPPS2 is probably the most obvious. If that gets axed it will simply get farmed out into other less noticeable programs. Maybe a study to figure out how to systemically computerize and correlate farmer demographic background to crop failure, or some such. The study will sound trivial but it will be the underlying infrastructure and knowledge building that is the intended goal.
French Conspiracy Theorists Hate US
or
French media encourage a robust and informative debate about US policy
From "SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy" -- http://ic-arda.org/Novel_Intelligence/index.html "Indeed, one TIA-like program conducted under the auspices of U.S. intelligence is the "Novel Intelligence from Massive Data" (NIMD) initiative of the little-known Intelligence Community Advanced Research and Development Activity (ARDA). Pursued with a minimal public profile and lacking a polarizing figure like Adm. Poindexter to galvanize opposition, NIMD has proceeded quietly even as TIA imploded. The existence of NIMD was first noted last year by Jim McGee of CQ Homeland Security. More recently, on July 24, 2003 he wrote in CQ Homeland Security that NIMD was "roaring down a parallel research track to TIA." NIMD was also cited in a May 21, 2003 article in the New York Times."
In your dreams.
Less is more !
Do you really think it's gone? Or is it just classified, like the NSA's PGP-breaker cluster?
I mean why spy on people when you can get them to spy on themselves? Just wait for the shadow funding for TIA and other analyzing software to come when Friendster starts requiring you to pay. Otherwise why would the internet exist if it wasn't for DARPA, wasn't it just opened up so that the "Illuminati" as show on the TIA logo could develop the information infrastructure that would be capable of being spied on in such a large scale ? Nah, they're just a bunch of greyface dimwitted control freaks with bizarre technocratic fetishes and too much social manipulative power in their face and hands.
Perle and Wolfowitz pushing the Iraq war to protect Israel Why you gotta bring Israel into this? Everyone is out to destroy them and their people, and you think our government is protecting them? Man, that's crazy talk.
Capitalizing "Our" makes you sound like
some sort of emperor, who has a puppet
president. Hmmm, then again...
Considered harmful.
No, we do not. We extend rights to all people,
until it is proven that they are criminal
(terrorist, illegal in US, etc.) at which
point rights are taken away.
That's a bit harder to understand than
"terrorists should have no rights", but
I hope you'll manage.
Considered harmful.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
> Anybody who thinks for a minute
> that TIA is going away as long
> as Ashcroft is AG is high.
I am *very* high right now and I don't think that.
Stoned != Stupid
First of all, to say that TIA is the only alternative to an arms race in order to deter global war is to accept without question that global warfare is a natural end. A lot of people have been brought up to believe that this is a basic truth. How very convenient for the arms industry.
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:) I too digress. I don't believe your statistic - 17% of American children lived below the poverty line in 2002 - but I am not going to argue over numbers. What I am going to say is that although poverty is still a terrible problem, the advent of Western industrialized society has greatly reduced its incidence and, statistically, made human live
OK, just go and convince Osama bin Ladin that he should bend over for McDonalds and E! True Hollywood Stories with rational, logical arguments and I'll accept that war is pointless in the modern age. If you're not talking about the real present which we actually find ourselves in but instead describing some wonderful time in the future when war shall pass away, you're just wanking.
Not to mention that TIA wouldn't stop the arms industry in the slightest. --Look at Cold War Soviet practices; the entire population was engaged in reporting on itself; maids reporting on their their ladies, ladies reporting on their lovers, lovers reporting on their employers, ad infinitum. (I have friends who grew up in that world.) And how did any of that shit prevent the Soviet bloc from arming itself to the teeth? It didn't. In fact, it was key in promoting it.
Right. TIA doesn't stop the arms industry from existing. It does cut down on the fraction of the resources expended by American society in constructing and maintaining conventional armed forces, and on the number of Iraqs that we have to run at great cost to Iraq and the United States. As for Cold War Soviet practices, yes, that's what happens when you use the system for evil by failing to allow a wide enough margin of dissent. It's totally evil and awful. Thermonuclear blackmail is also totally evil and awful, but it got us through the Cold War while allowing us to, you know, not be utterly impoverished.
Holy shit. There is so much wrong with that statement, I'm not even sure where to begin. It's all wrong. All of it. Holy shit. Even if we were to assume that the posperity brought by the, 'Engine of the Western markets' is NOT a self-destroying myth, (the world is rapidly dying as a direct result of those engines, for goodness sake!), then the claim that TIA technologies is a panacea is by itself a stinking, rotton lie
You live in material comfort unprecedented in the whole of human history thanks to those Western markets. I'm not qualified to argue about environmental trends. I don't think you are either. If I happen to be debating a climate scientist, I shall apologize. I do not deny the numerous negative effects of Western capitalism on humanity and the environment alike - but I do believe that these effects are counteracted by a whole raft of benefits to humanity and to the environment and that, as Western society becomes more and more affluent, negative effects will continue to be eliminated simply because we will start to be able to spend money on it.
TIA surveillance is not a panacea. It is a useful and powerful weapon which should not be discarded because it sends chills up and down our spines.
The use of TIA technologies is the chief way in that our 'comfortable' lives will cease to be comfortable. People in the West are so incredibly ignorant. --You can't buy child-like innocence of that sort! It's almost pretty. I think the most arrogant part is you blanket claim that Americans really are comfortable. Approximately 1 in 4 children in the U.S. does not get enough food, for crying out loud! But I digress. .
Your command of American English implies that you are from the West or have spent a certain amount of time there - are you calling yourself ignorant and if so what kind of paradox does that set up?
H4x0r Economist - k33ping d3m0cr4cy l33t 51Nc3 1987
Sorry, let's try that again as a text document-
This is just flame-bait anyway, but here-goes-
Point: Well, I guess if you don't mind being killed then it's perfectly ok. Sure, you'll "solve" the problem. But you'll also end up being killed. Ever wonder why police attempts to mediate first in hostage situations? According to your view, they should go in guns-blazing first. The disgruntled employee or whoever that is holding the hostages is going to kill people if you just go in attacking. Sure, you'll "solve" the problem in the sense that the hostage taker will be killed; but so will many others...
Counterpoint: We negotiated for months, even years through the UN. Saddam broke every treaty every time. There was little hope of overcoming this through negotiation. Saddam defied the International Community, the UN, and the US.
Point: No doubt that many of them are criminals. But A LOT of them are also innocent civilians. US military actually shoots people first--they won't wait to be shot at. It's not that the soldiers want to kill innocent people; it's just that they are not sure who is innocent and not
Counterpoint: The US military is trained to fire only when threatened. They do not, as a rule, file into unarmed crowds. The problem is that terrorists and former Iraqi militants disguise themselves as civilians and fire at troops from public crowds. This is a dispicable act, and yes, mistakes are made and civilians are killed. Comparitively, though, the numbers are very small. We're talking about around a quarter-million troops and a country of several million. There were casualties before the war even began due to accidents on the side of the US. Casualties will happen. However, is this worse or better than hundreds of thousands killed under Saddam's rule?
Point: I CLIAM that USA will never bring Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any of its future targets (Iran?) to the level of Germany after WWII. Why? Because Germany (and Japan too) was a developed, industrialized country during WWII. There was very little nation building there. There were functioning courts there before, they had a plutocracy, they had voting, more egalitarian than Iraq is now, etc. If USA DOES manage to bring any of its targets in the Middle East to the level of Germany and Japan, I will personally COMMEND you. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen. Also, it seems that USA doesn't want to stick around for 10 years and absorb more than $500billion in costs (although oil will pay for all of this if it can get it).
Counterpoint: This is speculation. The United States has a pretty good record with its efforts to help rebuild nations. We'll see what happens.
Point: Yes the infrastructure wasn't exactly in great shape. But it was in better shape before the war. Why do you think there are daily protests? The basic necessities aren't at an acceptable level. Maybe it will be fixed in the future--the question is when. Don't forget that Iraq is a fairly "rich" country, even under Saddam and UN sanctions. It was better off than most Asian, South American and African countries.
Counterpoint: There are daily protests, but it is largely due to many not having jobs. Electricity is flowing in most of Iraq and 85% of the schools have opened, many with furniture they did not have under Saddam Hussein. Read this article about the Iraqi infrastructure and status- http://www.dailystar.com.lb/opinion/26_09_03_d.asp from the Daily Star in Lebanon.
Point: The fact that you still think this has to eliminating a dictator shows you lack of information. I hope you do realize that this has nothing to do with that (if it did, why didn't USA invade Liberia, which needs help? Or some other African country?). As far as the bloodless war comment is concerned, well I guess if you count lives by numbers, sure. Although, with your 10-year rebuilding plan, I suspect more American soldiers and more Iraqi civilians will die in this war than any war in the last 50 years (not couting Vietnam and Corea)
I'm tempted to just walk away from this; you are clearly too deeply programmed for me to make a dent with, but I've got a little time to kill before hitting the sack tonight, so I'll address the grossest of your points.
OK, just go and convince Osama bin Ladin that he should bend over for McDonalds and E! True Hollywood Stories with rational, logical arguments and I'll accept that war is pointless in the modern age.
What makes you think that Osama Bin Ladin had anything to do with 9-11?
Right. TIA doesn't stop the arms industry from existing. It does cut down on the fraction of the resources expended by American society in constructing and maintaining conventional armed forces, and on the number of Iraqs that we have to run at great cost to Iraq and the United States.
Well, I'm not entirely certain what you were trying to say here, but as I prefer not to penalize somebody simply because they happen to commit typos use poor grammar, (which everybody does from time to time), I'll just let it pass with the question. . . "What?"
I'm not qualified to argue about environmental trends. I don't think you are either. If I happen to be debating a climate scientist, I shall apologize. I do not deny the numerous negative effects of Western capitalism on humanity and the environment alike - but I do believe that these effects are counteracted by a whole raft of benefits to humanity and to the environment and that, as Western society becomes more and more affluent, negative effects will continue to be eliminated simply because we will start to be able to spend money on it.
I don't know what you are grounding this lovely 'belief' on, but as I am fairly well tuned into world developments, and as I have seen nothing which leads me to think that 'Technology will save us', I suspect your viewpoint is constructed largely from Wishful Thinking. And you are quite right, I am not a climate scientist. As such, I am forced to base my beliefs on the hundreds of reports from those who ARE qualified environmental scientists who point to the massive melt-back of glaciers all around the world, killer heat waves in Europe, ancient rivers like the Sava, Drava, Kupa and Danube drying up, continuing ozone destruction, ocean fish stocks vanishing, coral reefs dying off, dropping sperm counts, rising psychological birth defects, etc, etc, etc.
although poverty is still a terrible problem, the advent of Western industrialized society has greatly reduced its incidence and, statistically, made human lives better in a very fundamental way.
You and your ad hominems! Where do you come up with this stuff? I can show you my sources. Show me one which says that, "Statistically, poverty has been reduced by Western industrialized society and made better in a very fundamental way." Define better? If you know your CIA fact history, or the history of the IMF, you would also know that much of this 'better society' comes at the cost of many a flourishing democratic country which has been toppled by the West's ambition to destroy competition and beggar whole nations. --And that it remains 'better' only for a portion of Americans. I stand by my stats, thank you very much. --1 in 4, or about 9 million kids under the age of 10 go hungry every day in America. Look it up. Google will spit back a mountain of data confirming this.
Perhaps. Or you could say that the continual appearance of black spots will give them more than enough to deal with as it stands. Or you could say that the secret police could allow a wide enough margin of dissent to keep most of society bumbling happily along.
"Perhaps??" You haven't lived in a fascist country, have you? Like Iraq, China or one of the old Soviet bloc countries. Most black spots are fabrications manufactured by the power brokers in order that people like you will actually fight to give up, not just your rights,
Thanks for fixing the HTML message. I saw the first one and I was thinking that I had to "decode" it into legible language but :)
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This is just flame-bait anyway, but here-goes-...
Whose message is flamebait? Mine or yours? I suppose you consider me anti-American but that's ok with me. As Noam Chomsky once remarked, calling someone anti-American is a trait of totalitarian regimes. That's what the Soviets and the Nazis used to use. The Soviets wouldn't call you anti-Communist, they would call you anti-Soviet! It is almost unheard of in democracy-like countries. Ever heard anyone say anti-Canadian? Anti-German? Anti-Chinese?
Counterpoint: We negotiated for months, even years through the UN. Saddam broke every treaty every time. There was little hope of overcoming this through negotiation. Saddam defied the International Community, the UN, and the US.
The point isn't the "negotiations" (BTW, your so-called negotiation is nothing more than gunpoint diplomacy). The point isn't even that Saddam is a dictator (which I'm sure we all agree). The real question is: what gives YOU the authority in invade another country unilaterally? You attempt to legitimize it by involving the international community and the UN, but they were against an involvement. Only around 20 countries supported the invasion and many of them only did so under US bribes (that's why they are all little countries).
On top of all this, there wasn't even any evidence Iraq had WMD. USA was the one that kicked out the weapons inspectors. Now, even they can't find it.
Your support of unilateral pre-emptive strikes will further destabilize the world. I suppose that is ok with you... And Rumsfeld's notion that the front on terror is in Iraq is utter nonsense. Wait until Al-Qaida strikes USA or some other (non-Iraqi) target. Then we'll see how central Iraq is to the "war" on terror.
The problem is that terrorists and former Iraqi militants disguise themselves as civilians and fire at troops from public crowds. This is a dispicable act, and yes, mistakes are made and civilians are killed. Comparitively, though, the numbers are very small. We're talking about around a quarter-million troops and a country of several million. There were casualties before the war even began due to accidents on the side of the US. Casualties will happen. However, is this worse or better than hundreds of thousands killed under Saddam's rule?
Yes, the "coalition" enemies are camouflaged. Is this anything new? They are waging a guerilla war (in addition to a bunch of terrorists waging a terrorist campaign). You can't excuse yourself for that. Did you even read my article that I referenced? There are thousands of Iraqis dying (almost hundreads in a week--not due to US troops but also due to rampant crime). I suggest that you lay off the mainstream media, which has stopped covering the Iraq war to a large extent.
As far as Saddam Hussein killing people, I don't think he killed HUNDREADS of thousands of people (it's more like TENS of thousands). Of course, when Turkey was killing the Kurds with US weapons, I don't know where you were. In any case, getting rid of Saddam was a GOOD THING. However, teh means to achieve it (ie. launching massive pre-emptive unilateral action against international norms) is not worth it. Rather let tyrants rule than create a world where pre-emptive strikes can be used by anyone. You do realize that if China invaded Tibet today, it would be perfectly "legitimate" due to US actions right?
The United States has a pretty good record with its efforts to help rebuild nations.
Let's see... since WWII... Guatemala... El Salvador... Chile... Iraq... Panama... Afghanistan... Nicaragua... Vietnam... hmm, I think I see how successful rebuilding has been. USA certainly has a lot of credibility
There are daily protests, but it is largely due to many not having jobs. Electricity is flow
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Whose message is flamebait? Mine or yours? I suppose you consider me anti-American but that's ok with me. As Noam Chomsky once remarked, calling someone anti-American is a trait of totalitarian regimes. That's what the Soviets and the Nazis used to use. The Soviets wouldn't call you anti-Communist, they would call you anti-Soviet! It is almost unheard of in democracy-like countries. Ever heard anyone say anti-Canadian? Anti-German? Anti-Chinese?
I don't think you're anti-American, just misinformed. Perhaps flamebait is too strong a word. What I meant was, this is a conversation that cannot be resolved in this forum and will create an endless string of replies and counter-replies.
Anti-Americanism only means something if you believe that- A. America is something special or deserves special regard, or B. America is somehow specially persecuted or criticized. This is similar to "Anti-Israeli". If you don't believe either of the two, then it just means, you don't like America, or more specifically, the US.
The point isn't the "negotiations" (BTW, your so-called negotiation is nothing more than gunpoint diplomacy). The point isn't even that Saddam is a dictator (which I'm sure we all agree). The real question is: what gives YOU the authority in invade another country unilaterally? You attempt to legitimize it by involving the international community and the UN, but they were against an involvement. Only around 20 countries supported the invasion and many of them only did so under US bribes (that's why they are all little countries).
If they were against an involvement, why did we get unanimous consent in the Security Council on a very strongly worded condemnation of Iraq's actions in UN resolution 1441? Wars have been started with less severe wording. What do you think the "Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations" means?
This reminds me of the current Presidential hopefuls fielded by the Democrat Party (who are anything but Democratic) who voted for authority for President Bush to attack Saddam, but then later criticized him and said they didn't want this to happen.
On top of all this, there wasn't even any evidence Iraq had WMD. USA was the one that kicked out the weapons inspectors. Now, even they can't find it.
This is really funny. The UN themselves said that Iraq had WMD. The UN stated that Iraq had not properly disposed of them. They had TONS of biological and chemical agents that were unaccounted for. So, if they didn't have them, that means that Saddam kept nearly 10 years of sanctions, all the while claiming he had the weapons publicly, even after destroying them years ago without letting anyone know. How ridiculous is that?
The inspectors left themselves after they realized that action would not continue to be stalled against Iraq continuing to block inspections as they had for over ten years. The US didn't "kick out the weapons inspectors".
Your support of unilateral pre-emptive strikes will further destabilize the world. I suppose that is ok with you... And Rumsfeld's notion that the front on terror is in Iraq is utter nonsense. Wait until Al-Qaida strikes USA or some other (non-Iraqi) target. Then we'll see how central Iraq is to the "war" on terror.
Though I realize it will likely happen at some point in the future, interestingly enough we have not had another major terrorist attack since September 11, 2001. Many countries have started to crack down on terrorist groups operating within their countries due to the "Bush doctrine". In fact, it may be the biggest inhibitor of terrorist actions to date.
Yes, the "coalition" enemies are camouflaged. Is this anything new? They are waging a guerilla war (in addition to a bunch of terrorists waging a terrorist campaign). You can't excuse yourself for that. Did you even read my article that I referenced? There are thousands of Iraqis dying (almost hu
I don't think you're anti-American, just misinformed.
:) ... Anyway, if you don't feel like responding or you get tired, don't reply. I'm cool with that... The messages ARE getting LONG.. you could write a book from these :)
What's the difference? Don't those that throw around the 'anti-American' label consider others to be misinformed?
What I meant was, this is a conversation that cannot be resolved in this forum and will create an endless string of replies and counter-replies.
One of us will win
Anti-Americanism only means something if you believe that- A. America is something special or deserves special regard, or B. America is somehow specially persecuted or criticized. This is similar to "Anti-Israeli". If you don't believe either of the two, then it just means, you don't like America, or more specifically, the US.
I don't really understand what you are saying there. Are you saying someone who doesn't like USA is anti-American? Or is it someone who doesn't regard USA as special or criticizes it? In addition, can an American be anti-American? If yes, who determines who is or isn't "American"? The government? (note: I'm not American but just asking)...
If they were against an involvement, why did we get unanimous consent in the Security Council on a very strongly worded condemnation of Iraq's actions in UN resolution 1441?
Very few people would consider that sufficient to start a war. Yes, wars have been started with far less but in those cases, you are clearly breaking the rules. For instance, USA invaded Panama (circa 1991(?)) without any authorization at all. No one needs authorization to start wars. Countries like USA, USSR, and China have demonstrated that. However, all those countries are breaking international rules. USA did that with Iraq.
This reminds me of the current Presidential hopefuls fielded by the Democrat Party (who are anything but Democratic) who voted for authority for President Bush to attack Saddam, but then later criticized him and said they didn't want this to happen.
The US Democratic Party and the Republicans are different sides of the same coin. It's just too bad that Americans don't realize that the Democrats aren't what they seem to be. For instance, Democrats, just like Republicans, are in bed with corporations, run by elites, are Imperialists, etc. Having said that, Dean and Kucincinch(sp?) both opposed the war from the beginning; the rest of the field are a bunch of hypocrites. Wesley Clark, for instance, isn't even a Democrat! If there was a Republican opening, I"ll bet he would have run for that!
The UN themselves said that Iraq had WMD.
The UN never said such a thing. It said that there are things unaccounted for and that's why you had the weapons inspectors. No one, including Hans Blix, knew whether Iraq had WMD. It seems that you, along with the Bush administration, are the only ones that believes that.
The inspectors left themselves after they realized that action would not continue to be stalled against Iraq continuing to block inspections as they had for over ten years. The US didn't "kick out the weapons inspectors".
USA (and Britain) kicked out the weapons inspectors both times. This year (before the war) and a few years ago before the big bombing campaign. I really don't know where you get the idea that the inspectors left by themselves. The UN does not withdraw its insepctors, especially when things are unaccounted for. The UN asked for more time, USA said 'no...leave now' and that was that...
Though I realize it will likely happen at some point in the future, interestingly enough we have not had another major terrorist attack since September 11, 2001.
Roughly, Al-Qaida attacks have a period of 2 years or so. If you look at their past (embassy bombings, Yemen ship, WTC, 9/11), they attack every few years.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
Sorry, haven't had time to continue this discussion, nor do I think we will ever agree on this.
3 75,39116970,00.htm
However, you might be interested in this story.
It appears no US companies will be directly rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure. This probably doesn't make you less suspicious of our intentions though.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/security/0,39020
Oh, and they'll be building a GSM network. That's incompatible with most of the US cellular equipment manufacturers.
Whoops wrong link, sorry-
, 39020348,39116980,00.htm
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/wireless/0