Slashdot Mirror

http://www.isro.org/programmes.htm>
http://www.isro.org/mileston.htm
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2132831,00. html
http://www.cdacindia.com/html/param.asp

... if this is one of the dreaded consequences of outsourcing jobs to India.

Hmm - No. Not due to job outsourcing... but its certainly a result of technology that was born in the US.

I said "No" because the people behind this are (from the article) "founder members of CDAC, the brains behind India's PARAM-supercomputer". If I recall correctly, CDAC was setup by the Government of India in the late 80s as a direct consequence of the US *withholding* export of supercomputers to India for fear it would be used for defense research (more specifically, nuclear research). As a result, the CDAC people built massively parallel supercomputers from off-the-shelf CPUs (IIRC, they still used American CPUs - off-the-shelf 8086s (?) to begin with). They have some very cluey guys with a lot of experience born from research efforts like creating the complex electronics for interfacing supercomputers. Now it seems some of those people are moving to the private sector - kind of like with Govt. spending jumpstarting the computer revolution in the US.

A sign of what's to come? Is this the result of the US losing their position as main providers of R&D? What will be left afterwards? An economy of service?

I think every country needs a *balance* of free trade and protection of weaker industries. A "we can sell to you, but you can't sell to us" mentality is ultimately is bad for everyone concerned; from what I understand, 2/3rds of US income derives from exports.

At the end of the day, I'm sure your leaders have an eye on industry and employment figures. If not, you elect new ones.

... if this is one of the dreaded consequences of outsourcing jobs to India.

Hmm - No. Not due to job outsourcing... but its certainly a result of technology that was born in the US.

I said "No" because the people behind this are (from the article) "founder members of CDAC, the brains behind India's PARAM-supercomputer". If I recall correctly, CDAC was setup by the Government of India in the late 80s as a direct consequence of the US *withholding* export of supercomputers to India for fear it would be used for defense research (more specifically, nuclear research). As a result, the CDAC people built massively parallel supercomputers from off-the-shelf CPUs (IIRC, they still used American CPUs - off-the-shelf 8086s (?) to begin with). They have some very cluey guys with a lot of experience born from research efforts like creating the complex electronics for interfacing supercomputers. Now it seems some of those people are moving to the private sector - kind of like with Govt. spending jumpstarting the computer revolution in the US.

A sign of what's to come? Is this the result of the US losing their position as main providers of R&D? What will be left afterwards? An economy of service?

I think every country needs a *balance* of free trade and protection of weaker industries. A "we can sell to you, but you can't sell to us" mentality is ultimately is bad for everyone concerned; from what I understand, 2/3rds of US income derives from exports.

At the end of the day, I'm sure your leaders have an eye on industry and employment figures. If not, you elect new ones.

We put the dot in supercomputers

(see, they're using Sun processors)

You're talking out of your ass, aren't you? This cluster uses POWER4 processors made by IBM. Also, where do you see Myrinet? All I see is a kind of quad-ethernet board, not really like Myrinet hardware.

In the mid-80s, the American Govt. denied Indians access to the Cray (XMP 14 ?) and it resulted in a spurt of supercomputing activity. By mid-90s there were at least 3 Indian supercomputers developed independently.

1. NAL Flosolver
2. CDAC Param
3. Anupam

Though it is a matter of pride for most Indians to have supercomputers made indigenously, one should not loose sight of the following facts.

1. It takes a lot more to produce a micro-processor than to build a supercomputer
2. With the slightest hint of potential competition, the American Govt., pulls out all stops to ensure that its technological edge in "force multiplier technologies" is maintained, a la Microsoft. Apart from denying Indians the Crays, the American Govt. also arm-twisted the Russian space agency, Glavcosmos into curtailing the cryogenic engine technology transfer deal. This delayed the Indian space program by 5 years. (Indians have since successfully tested an indigenous cryogenic engine.)
3. Indian computers still have American chips in them. It is high time the Indians started building their version of the dragon chip.

Yep, exactly. I looked at their "high speed low latency connections" It might be low latency (no figures given) but for 4 cable connections they max out at 400Mbit/s bi-directional, which can be beat by cheap gig-Ethernet cards and switches over a single cable, let alone 10Gig-Ethernet, Myrinet, HIPPA et al. For the PCI version of the card (32bit 33Mhz, I'm sure Sun, Cray and IBM are shaking in their boots) see this link Here.

Take the PARAM 10000 supercomputer for example. From the specs, each compute node is obviously a Sun Enterprise E420R-ish hooked together using Myrinet which has been renamed to PARAMnet. Why the need to claim that it is "indigenous" as it implies something else? Just look up the word in the dictionary and you'll see what I mean.

(disclaimer: I'm an Indian)

About 10 years back while I was still in Engineering college we had a great "scandal" about Russia being arm twisted by the USA to not provide India with cryogenic rocket engine technology to launch remote sensing satellites. It was feared that India would develop missile technology and perhaps ICBMs.

So the problem is this. No engine. No rocket. No satelite aka no space program. And on top of that no Crays to model simulations etc. The man who said "screw this" was Dr. Kalam. The man that threw caution to wind and aligned the bureaucratic/lazy govt agencies to do this.

- Develop an indigenous super computer

- Develop a liquid fuel rocket

- Put a satelite in orbit

Some years later CDAC developed PARAM supercomputer followed by ANUPAM. These inexpensive machines were put to task to solve whole bunch of vibration related problems that used to send test rockets crashing into Bay of Bengal. Quote from a news item "Likewise, the PSLV too failed on its first ever launch on September 20, 1993. The then ISRO chairman, Dr U R Rao, said this was because of a software error in the pitch control loop of the on-board guidance and control processor." There were still more problems with the re-entry stage etc.

The supercomputers enabled some new materials research and first success was almost 10 years later
PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle). India then proceeded to deploy remote sensing satellites in orbit without depending on the French Ariane program at 1/7th the cost.

Out of this came the four Indian missiles long-range Agni (fire), medium range Akash (sky), surface-to-surface Prithvi (earth) and anti-tank Nag (cobra) and the now infamous nukes.

The satellite deployment capability bothers EU and Australia because it is clearly the loss of some "easy money". India has not yet offered satellite launching services, but for those prices even Jamaica can put a bird in the sky. At the moment ISRO toils at the GSLV (Geo Synchronous Launch Vehicle). So far they have not had any success.

This new announcement of moon shot is exciting and a cause of concern. While India has put enough weather satellites it still is ransomed by abnormal weather patterns drought, floods et al Nonetheless it's a matter of pride or rather amazement for me to witness any govt dept doing anything straight over there. Dr. Kalam is now the president of India. President of India is as we call a ceremonious office quite like the Queen of England. So I am sure the Hindu fanatic party leading the govt now is not any progressive but I am optimistic that a secular govt will be elected soon and our rocket man is in the right place trying to crack a tougher cookie. Maybe it's time for the land of zero, decimal and exponent to earn some Karma.

(disclaimer: I'm an Indian)

About 10 years back while I was still in Engineering college we had a great "scandal" about Russia being arm twisted by the USA to not provide India with cryogenic rocket engine technology to launch remote sensing satellites. It was feared that India would develop missile technology and perhaps ICBMs.

So the problem is this. No engine. No rocket. No satelite aka no space program. And on top of that no Crays to model simulations etc. The man who said "screw this" was Dr. Kalam. The man that threw caution to wind and aligned the bureaucratic/lazy govt agencies to do this.

- Develop an indigenous super computer

- Develop a liquid fuel rocket

- Put a satelite in orbit

Some years later CDAC developed PARAM supercomputer followed by ANUPAM. These inexpensive machines were put to task to solve whole bunch of vibration related problems that used to send test rockets crashing into Bay of Bengal. Quote from a news item "Likewise, the PSLV too failed on its first ever launch on September 20, 1993. The then ISRO chairman, Dr U R Rao, said this was because of a software error in the pitch control loop of the on-board guidance and control processor." There were still more problems with the re-entry stage etc.

The supercomputers enabled some new materials research and first success was almost 10 years later
PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle). India then proceeded to deploy remote sensing satellites in orbit without depending on the French Ariane program at 1/7th the cost.

Out of this came the four Indian missiles long-range Agni (fire), medium range Akash (sky), surface-to-surface Prithvi (earth) and anti-tank Nag (cobra) and the now infamous nukes.

The satellite deployment capability bothers EU and Australia because it is clearly the loss of some "easy money". India has not yet offered satellite launching services, but for those prices even Jamaica can put a bird in the sky. At the moment ISRO toils at the GSLV (Geo Synchronous Launch Vehicle). So far they have not had any success.

This new announcement of moon shot is exciting and a cause of concern. While India has put enough weather satellites it still is ransomed by abnormal weather patterns drought, floods et al Nonetheless it's a matter of pride or rather amazement for me to witness any govt dept doing anything straight over there. Dr. Kalam is now the president of India. President of India is as we call a ceremonious office quite like the Queen of England. So I am sure the Hindu fanatic party leading the govt now is not any progressive but I am optimistic that a secular govt will be elected soon and our rocket man is in the right place trying to crack a tougher cookie. Maybe it's time for the land of zero, decimal and exponent to earn some Karma.

I notice a major problem with this operation. What about webmail? Hotmail.com although started by an Indian is located in the USA. Are they also going to monitor all HTTP traffic? Infact 100 to 1 I'd bet that a terrorist wouldn't be using POP3. I mean you'd rather lug an AK47 than a laptop. Plus he can walk into any browsing center and log into his account. What about those super secure webmails that have 128 bit encrypted java applets which act as you MUAs? Heck I can get a web mail account from Russia if I wanted.

BTW, a lot of incorrect facts about India have been bandied about, and being in the heart of it all, (I live and hack in India) I'd like to set facts straight.

a)
Myth: There is only one ISP in India
Fact: There are hundreds of ISPs in India. VSNL was the sole ISP only till 1998. Even the CIA world fact book gets the major ISPs right. There are 48 major ISPs! (read Class A).
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ in.html

I get cable at home in Madras from a gateway in Singapore (singnet). It travels via a dedicated undersea line that is not government controlled. Heck even my DNS lookup goes to Singapore (3000 odd kms.) Mine is a Class B ISP that the CIA page does not even recognise. There are Classes A through E! So, no there isn't one major check point like China.

b)
Myth: Internet penetration in India is low.
Fact:There are millions (literally) of cybercafes in India. Satyam iWay , one of the medium sized chains has some 400 iWays with global profile and roaming facility and they say they have 12.5 million users. And these are only located in the major cities, what about the rest of India. Nin-urban population comprises 85% of India. You are looking at a staggering number of people in the billions.

c)
Myth: Hindi & English are the only languages that are important.
Fact: Hindi & English yes, but India has 2000+ languages, and only 15 official ones. Try any Indian email service even the web based ones like rediff.com and you'll find more than 10 languages in which you can send an email.

d)
Myth: Encryption is not avaialble easily
Fact: Encryption is freely available. Heck ever heard of GPG anyone? or PGP? It's only 5 minutes to download... even in India. Besides we have the largest number of software professionals in the world. Wanna reconsider?

e)
Myth: The government doesn't have mammoth computing resources
Fact: Yes, super computers like the Cray were not allowed into India until recently. So we had to build our own (Param). We built the Like all governments in the world they are still coming to terms with the technology, but they do have tons of cash, so don't put it past them to be on top of things given a while.