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India's Bargain Supercomputer
MaximusTheGreat writes "India beat U.S. supercomputer sanctions by building a teraflop $5 million PARAM Padma supercomputer, which is half the price of similar computers being sold in the international market. It can be scaled upto 16 teraflops, on a build-to-order basis For comparison, the fastest supercomputer in the U.S. is about 10 Teraflops. Some techical details and more info on CDAC , ITworld, Economic times and Asia Times. Also, India has been exporting older model PARAM 10000s to other countries like Russia, Canada, Germany etc. for some time, and expects to increase exports significantly with the new model PARAM Padma."
Seems like India is taking an increasing lewad in technology.
"Give a woman two glasses of wine and some pad thai, and they'll agree to just about anything." the Sports Guy
I am SO unfunny tonight, it's not even funny. I need some Way of the Stick action.
America has sanctions against supercomputers? Why?
Instant Karma's gonna get you Gonna look you right in the face -- John Lennon
OK, time for my "intelligent" take on the article. I think it's interesting that countries are actively trying to circumvent the US "supercomputer export restrictions". Even better that they're doing it for such a low price tag (compared to US supercomputers, G4 series excluded).
... not that I really need one. What would I use it for? Statistical analysis of my shopping list, and automobile gas usage forecasts?
Too bad I can't afford one
The article says it was built with ibm power4 chips operating at 1ghz. What I am wondering is this - if the US gov't decides to get upset about this will they prohibit IBM from selling power4 chips to the company that makes these supercomputers?
And of those of you interested in the power 4 check out this page. A pretty cool chip from what I can tell...
hey!!! India, thats the way to go!!!, the quality and advancements which India offers at a very cheap price r excellent,Kudos to all Indians!!!
hackers dont have parents;they increase using fork();
Must...resist...obvious...can't...resist...oh no it's coming
How about a Beowulf Cluster of those then! LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Sorry.
- Peter
DOES IT RUN LINUX?
Oh, and something about my trousers. Feces, etc. You know the routine.
"not pertaining to turds"
Linux.
What would happen if someone brought one from India to the US and then sold it back to India? Would that person get arrested?
This is why outsourcing to India is advantageous! Cheap and skilled developers can't wait to take on cool projects.
It's amazing what pressure can do for you. Until a few years, we were denied technology for building supercomputers by the west. This forced CDAC to work on such technology from scratch.
Likewise for most of India's rocket programme (albeit with the occasional help from Russia) and other technology. When pushed to the limits, you outperform yourself.
Stealing what? I'm personally friends with a couple India's who have moved here from India and were given money to go to Grad school by Cisco (as they also work for Cisco). What's wrong with this? Who's stealing what?
Do a better job than they do for a better price, that's as simple as that.
Thing is, there's no way USA can match indian prices, and indian software engineers are usually quite decent, so USA is going to lose more and more IT jobs.
Now, if you want to put barriers to importation to protect your jobs, imagine if other countries did the same with USA and stopped buying US software, most of you would be in DEEP trouble.
So let the free market decide, because you will probably lose a protectionist war, the european union has now as much power as you do economically, and they already have used their power to curb US protectionist policies before.
I Wonder if some of the Indian exports assisted in DPRK weapons systems development?
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
Totally agree this is why i enforce the no $2 sand niggah policy at my place of work and neighbourhood -- we just don't want dirty buggy code written by curry munch shit!
Well it just goes to show that cunts at cisco think like yourself, you $2 sand loven niggahs need to fuck off out of our America!
The bush administration is after the $2 sand niggahs, lets nuke them and steal there oil!
totally disagree that any $2 sand niggah could product better code than our hero's like: linus, cox, rms -- these people may be fat, not shower, or have long beards, but this is minor compared to the offerings of dirty, stinking, curry munching $2 sand niggahs.
I'm sorry, but I have to insist that you can't add a bunch of PC's together, and end up with the equivalent of a general purpose supercomputer.
These so-called "supercomputers" only have the performance of a supercomputer on the class of problems which are inherently parallelizable. For problems which require serialization, by needing results in hand to go onto the next step in the calculation, these things slow down to the speed of one of the component PC's.
I guess now that Seymore Cray has died, no one else can build real supercomputers. 8-(.
-- Terry
Well imagine that the Lord of the Rings is so fucken boring, I fell asleep! You know that fuck gandalf was played by a fucken $2 sand niggah -- dat short niggah is only knee high to a grasshopper!
Ok, color me skeptical.
If it was that easy to build 16 TFLOP machines, don't you think someone in the US would have build one by now?
It's easy to say that you can build something that will scale that high. It's an entirely different thing to prove it by actually doing so.
And India IS nuclear and has a fairly stable government. The U.S. or U.N. will be hard pressed to tell them "bad". Plus I really wouldn't mind their nuclear program going digital, a little less radiation in the morning breeze. They're going to do nuke research no matter what, might as well encourage them to not blow shit up in the process.
To top it off, why is it exactly we, as THE U.S. feel we can be top dawg and keep everyone else down. India, like the U.S., has quite a bit of poverty and it really wouldn't hurt to encourage them to look towards bettering themselves and their people. (nuclear research can actually be used for things other than building bombs ...)
In the tech world there are no borders, and this really pisses the old schoolers off. We're not going to do anything except identify they broke a sanction trust me we've picked enough fights to last us a while ... plus just think about the benchmarks they'll get on that baby ... it will just kick the shit outta everyone else at the U.N. LAN parties ...
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
DAC has already sold about 7 PARAM 10000 supercomputers with 100-gigaflop memory to eight countries so far..
That's some freaking fast memory..
Does anyone have any info on the "supercomputer sanctions?" I've just never heard of it. Thanks.
Since a lot of people are asking about the sanctions on India, here is some info froma superc omp/
http://www.itworld.com/Comp/1437/021217indi
__________
India is included in the Tier 3 of the U.S. HPC Export Control Policy of the U.S. Department of Commerce (DoC). Although the U.S. government relaxed in March this year the upper performance limit of computers that could be exported to India from 85,000 MTOPS (millions of theoretical operations per second) to 190,000 MTOPS, imports of supercomputers comparable to the new 1 TFLOP computer designed by C-DAC are still restricted, according to Arora. "The performance of the PARAM Padma in terms of MTOPS is in the vicinity of 500,000 MTOPS," Arora added.
__________
If I have understood it correctly, it is mainly Microsoft that is firing programmers in USA and hiring programmers in India.
Yet they are the first one to say that Linux is un-American.
---
That's the problem with a "free market". It does not guarantee, nor makes anything close to a guarantee, about any kind of job security or "decent" pay. A "free market" is only geared toward one thing money not people which is the problem.
I imagine if you loose your job to cheap labor you'll feel different. Now I'm not against "cheaper" labor, but in practice it is rarely a benefit. I'm sure you can come up with a hundred of the same basic exception, but thats all it is an exception. Example MS sells Windows for $200 (retail version) and you can d/l and install Debian for next to nothing or buy RH for $50 or whatever. However, look how many people MS employs vs Debian and Red Hat. If everyone switched to RH overnight, there would be a lot of jobs lost -- even worse if they switched to Debian and downloaded it.
The problem is, a society that ran strictly on OSS/FS (especially carying that to other industries) wont be capitalist, it would have to be some type of socialism or communism.
Well, working in europe for a US software editor, I can only imagine it's for the quality, something sorely lacking in US software.
My algorithm flagged it as possessing an unusually high crazy gayness density.
How? Because the PARAM 10000 uses Sun UltraSPARC CPUs, clustered together with Myrinet (a.k.a. Paramnet). So the heart of the system is American. Don't discount US technology that fast next time!
Article say that the amount is Rs 50 crore which is Rs 500 million and $1 = Rs 48 (approx). So the cost of the machine is $10 million (approx) which is more or less equal to the equivalent machines available in the international market.
That's the equivalent of 1 lutabyte(1E15 bytes) or 1.5625E13 CDs in mpeg 1 layer 3 format at 64mb an album. A bill is being sent to India as we speak.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
so if the dmca applied to our sanctions, does this mean we could nuke'em?
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
We put the dot in supercomputers
(see, they're using Sun processors)
or how about
Now running Red Dot Linux
Ok, I'll stop now, time for bed...and tomorrow's my wife's sleep in day! Ack. (those with kids will know to what I refer)
India is third world at best, and once they and Pakistan finally get it over with and nuke each other we can all breath easier because they'll no longer be overpopulating their part of the planet...
The Indian government prohibits exporting this supercomputer to the US because it can be used by terrorists.
So let the free market decide, because you will probably lose a protectionist war, the european union has now as much power as you do economically, and they already have used their power to curb US protectionist policies before.
Europe's same old routine of "underestimate the yanks" has traditionally served the yanks quite well. If I recall, Warren Buffet pointed out that "there is nothing dumber than betting against America. It hasn't worked since 1776." There is some truth to that.
Now why are you trying to tell them that they'll lose a protectionist war with the EU? I wish the EU would quit trying to throw out these eloquent explainations, when the root cause of so many of these kinds of feelings is one simple thing...jealousy. Many on that side of the pond seem to have jealousy they don't like to admit to publicly...so of course they want to think they are more powerful than they really are. It makes them sleep better at night.
Can the EU hurt the U.S.? Sure...but then who are they going to turn to when they need their messes fixed in the future? From Bosnia to the Falklands to France's fucking around in Vietnam...the U.S. has been rather useful because they actually HAVEN'T gutted their military (often to help prop up failing social programs that get touted so much by some). How well will the people of Europe handle the military matters on their own? (Bear in mind that their presence in many military matters involving the EU side of the pond was requested and strongly desired.) Money isn't the only factor...it's still rather desirable that both sides just get along. They both are what they are...get over it.
Go on Europe...keep underestimating in your arrogance and take the gamble. No...really...do it.
Seems to have been in the news lately. From Bill Gates to hand held computers - it seems to have seen a lot lately. A short summary -
(1) Bill Gates and India
The AIDS donations, and yah, maybe source code sharing and Windows for a bargain.
(2) The Simputer A handheld pc that runs on Linux and is available for a bargain.
(3) Reliance and CDMA
Reliance has launched a WLL based mobile phone system which promises high bandwidth, JAVA enabled advanced telephony. AT pathetically low prices !!!!
(4) The Param Padma
A 16 teraflop supercomputer, faster than many others available.
Coming to think of it, a developing nation seems to have more to look forward to than a developed nation!! That also reminds me that the brain behind many Intel chips is Indian. India lacks infrastructure/proper governance/organization. But it looks like Nostradamus's prophecy of India becoming a superpower may come true... within the next few years.
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
It's funny you say this because cheap labour is EXACTLY what the US is about. The US exists solely for the pursuit of Profits, and those are only obtained by slashing prices. How many products that you buy actually say "Made in USA" on them? Liekly none of the clothing that you wear was made in the US. Your whole society is built arround profit and the bottom line, and you're surprised that this is finally hitting the IT industry?
Really, what is un-American is producint something in, dare I say, a communal effort and providing it free of charge. About as un-American, I'd say, as questioning the president or not having a war every 10 years.
This perfectly illustrates how bad things have gotten technology wise in the U.S. People stick their heads in the sand and say over and over like a mantra: "The U.S. leads the world in technology". Well, bucko, it hasn't been so for quite a while!....AND let me clue you into something: Unless the education system and the corporate structures change here in the U.S. of A, it's gonna get worse. Much worse. Right now, Americans have one of the worst education systems in the world. Even Canada, who we like to put down as being scrawny, kicks our ass in terms of the numbers of literate people coming out of schools today. The same is true in most European countries and Japan, and yes even in places like India. Add to this the corporate attitude here that the next quarter's 'guidance' is all the matters, and you have the recipe for failure. And failure is what's happening. Look at the examples. The U.S. developed the Internet, yet who has more computers per capita and a better infrascructure? South Korea. What country has had computers and the net in all their schools for years? Canada. Yet here we pat each other on the back because we might have half the schools wired by 2005. We're pathetic. Another big problem here is the politics here. We truly believe that we're the world's Police Department, so we spend large fortunes on military hardware instead of food and health care and education for our kids. All the Patriot missles and bombs in the world won't help us in the future. Our future is our children and we'd better well start worrying about feeding, clothing, keeping them healthy and educating them well then making more bombs.
It's one of the few things we can hold over their heads for being a country that dares to develop a nuclear arsenal without our permission.
Given the choice between damned if they do, damned if they don't, India wisely chose damned if they do.
paintball
There's a few thing you don't quite understand.
1) It's not jaleousy.
People everywhere around the world resent the way USA behaves around the world. In the middle east, in asia, in europe,...
If you think everybody's jaleous, you obviously need to travel around the world and see by yourself why they are so angry.
Jaleousy can't be the reason why two thirds of the world want you to get an enormous slap in the face.
2) The big problem of the EU is not military, it's political. Together, the EU is probably as powerful as USA, they have the weapons, the money, all the technology, they can build everything themselves.
Their big problem is that they don't have the political resolve USA has when it comes to deciding that they will go and act.
The point 2) is why USA is the only superpower of the world, if the europeans get their shit together, USA is going to lose a lot of its dominance.
Common, there were no software 50 years ago - what kind of society was that? It doesn't matter how work one part of industry - whole economics is important. I can imagine country where is no religion and there is a soul-saving business. They could point to US churches and declare US a socialist country ;))
Thing is, there's no way USA can match indian prices, and indian software engineers are usually quite decent, so USA is going to lose more and more IT jobs.
Well...being that the U.S. dollar and the Euro are pretty close to the same value right now, I'd think this would concern you too. I am guessing you are from Europe juding by your nick and comments here. India (and other such countries) would be undercutting Europeans by pretty close to the same amount.
That brings me to a question...why go from a conversation about undercutting U.S. developers from India to talking about how the European Union can deal with our "protectionist policies"? Like I said...I think this one is a potential problem for Europeans as well. Why are you so anxious to talk about a protectionist war with the U.S. when your own side of things is likely to be just as damaged by the matter? I don't think your conclusion is 100% correct (and that's a subject for a whole other debate), and really...get over yourselves.
1) Lower population density.
2) A higher education system where participation is mainly driven by ability to pay to participate. When you don't think you can even go to a good school because you can't afford it (unless you're a top 1% ubergeek), you tend to not bother with education at all.
paintball
The Simputer is a failure. The Dell Axim is cheaper and more important is actually being made and bought and used. The Indians have NO supercomputer listed in the top 500. Japan, China, U.S. and Europe do. Indians make NOTHING at all that is world class. Even in software their contribution is limited to slaving for foreigners. Heck they are even dpendent on tiny nations like South Africa, Israel, Sweden for such crucial defensive necessities as artillery shells! Any way you look at it, India is a failed state. Its ridiculous to see all these silly, deluded indians here boasting endlessly about india's 'achievements' when the ground reality is so pathetically primitive.
Well, you know about indian software engineers here, in US, right? Those decent engineeres have decent salaries ;)
There, in India, many more mediocre engineers.. Top of the crop are going abroad.
Hello "Failed human"
Simulated on by the challenge from Japan, the US gov is investing money into the technology race. IBM, flush with a $563 million government contract to build two new supercomputers, [2004 with a 100-teraflop machine that would be nearly three times faster than Earth simulator] Click here
quote:port 17 udp
India is part of the Axis of Cheap Labour along with China and Mexico.
Yup, you're right on all counts. Except these jokers constitute 25% of the technical talent in the Silicon Valley. Now, these jokers are stealing your job through overseas outsourcing. Seems to me the jokers are having the last laugh
India buys the same proc off the shelf from Brazil, Canada, France, Italy, singapore....I hope you get the drift. Hell, they don't even have to "announce" their purchase. Probably just buy off some phony company set for the same purpose. Such sanctions don't work. It only hurts US companies.
You see - India has FAIRLY stable government. Could they have much worse government in 5 years and in pissing contest drop some nuclear bombs on Pakistan? It could happen. Not very probably though...
I don't intend this as flaimbait, and I would be grateful if people more knowledgeable about this program could enlighten us.
I would say there is a greater chance of the Pakistan nuking India. Their military dictator/president describes Pakistan as "The citadel of Islam".
Doesn't matter who starts the contest, a lot of people will be fucked...
i enforce the no $2 sand niggah policy
I understand sand niggah, but what's the $2 part all about? The hourly rate? The annual salary? The cost of hookers in that part of the world?
Enquiring minds want to know.
In the mid-80s, the American Govt. denied Indians access to the Cray (XMP 14 ?) and it resulted in a spurt of supercomputing activity. By mid-90s there were at least 3 Indian supercomputers developed independently.
1. NAL Flosolver
2. CDAC Param
3. Anupam
Though it is a matter of pride for most Indians to have supercomputers made indigenously, one should not loose sight of the following facts.
1. It takes a lot more to produce a micro-processor than to build a supercomputer
2. With the slightest hint of potential competition, the American Govt., pulls out all stops to ensure that its technological edge in "force multiplier technologies" is maintained, a la Microsoft. Apart from denying Indians the Crays, the American Govt. also arm-twisted the Russian space agency, Glavcosmos into curtailing the cryogenic engine technology transfer deal. This delayed the Indian space program by 5 years. (Indians have since successfully tested an indigenous cryogenic engine.)
3. Indian computers still have American chips in them. It is high time the Indians started building their version of the dragon chip.
As someone else has said, India has been in the tech-news of late. That's a welcome change from India making headlines on the back of deaths from train crashes or blindness inflicted by fake doctors. However, none of this has stood test of time. For all the hoohah about India's IT prowess, there's not a single truely world renowned software that an Indian company can boast of. Nor is there serious participation at the level of standards that govern much of today's fast moving software industry. India is at best playing the catching up game fairly well; at worse it's entertaining the world with a great apeing show. The joke will be on India if they are not careful.
You see - India has FAIRLY stable government.
Indias government is democratically elected, just like most nuclear states like the US, Russia, etc. The same argument applies to any of them. Remember the cold war?
It's the global marketplace. Working.
If you charge too much for something, customers go elsewhere.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Even the media wants to spin it that way with misleading headlines like "Pakistani leader hints he was ready to use nuclear arms" when he never actually said such a thing (but it's to be ASSUMED of BOTH sides anyway).
I don't fault any nation for being, or wanting to become a member of the Big-Nuclear-Dick Club, since M.A.D. is actually better for keeping world peace by forcing diplomacy (with WW2 being the demo), and nobody gets to treat your country like a 3rd-class afterthought anymore.
(On a related note: If Bush Jr decides to punish Iraq even when they find no evidence of BigDick weapons, I really hope Saddam is smart enough to BLUFF with "nukes hidden in big cities" to thwart our invasion and oil seizure. How "un-american" of me eh?)
--
Power to the Peaceful
well, if the best are coming to america, i feel sorry for india. about 1/5 of the engineers i met here that came over on h1b's were pretty good or better. the rest were useless sacks of skin.
However, my fart smells like anyone elses, I can simply blame it on my dog.
In North Korea's case (or India's, Pakistan's etc.) case, their blast will be loud, rumbly and devistating. However one nuke is pretty much like another unless you compare it with previously detonated weapons of the same model, which will not be possible with a one-of-a-kind prototype. All one has to do then is simply deny it.
A uranium bomb goes off or it doesn't. They could send a mine laying submarine down south with a bomb to muroroa, set a fuze, dump it and go home. If the seizmographs in Pyonyang pick up a tremour they start production and everyone will just blame the French (exept the french themselves who will blame Greenpeace or something and sink another boat). If it does not detonate the heavy uranium will sink to the bottom and iradiate some fish (Kim Il Jong won't give a damn) and they can just try again, it is really simple.
Therefore who realy cares who has supercomputers? It just protects some fish and means that the French won't be hated more than they already are.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
I believe it was the Cuban Missile Crisis which demonstrated the effectiveness of MAD, rather than WW2 where nukes *were* used. Also, to put it politely, please keep in mind that rogue states like Iraq and N.Korea don't care much for conventional MAD which is why the U.S. is justified in disarming them. Saddam would be selling briefcase nukes to AlQueda before putting his own nuke on the tip of a ICBM easily tracable back to him and his vacated palaces.
*India has no infrastructure but is developing it. just to give you an example, Roads in India are currently being laid at around 25 times the rate they were being laid in 1995. *India started getting computers (and i mean any sort of computer) around the 90s *India became free around 50 years ago. States like Sweden, Japan & America has been free to pursue the well being of their country and countrymen for god-knows-how-long for god-knows-how-long. Israelis are a hard working intelligent lot who superseded india because of the massive american aid and because India was so fucked up by socialism and by the Nehru family from the 50s through to the 90s. It is just in the last 10 years that free enterprise in India has really been given a chance. Everyone starts somewhere. China was treated in much the same way when it started overcoming its obstacles. Even China was better developed that India is. India has a loooonnnng way to go. But... Wait and watch.It is always nauseating to see anyone, including my fellow indians, boasting. I guess Indians do boast a lot, but thats probably due to our excitement at the prospect of being able to overcome our economic and political backwardness with technology and becoming world-class in at least one field.India will surprise you in much the way China did. Dont deny it. Expect it to happen.
Oh yes, India and Russia... Indians and russians have a lot of to tell about corruption, bribes, unjustice to their own citizens. Well, it's still a democracy if you may choose between bad and very bad candidate...
How else can you explain all these articles extolling indian vaporware? Or modding the parent post so high even though it is such a shameless blatant lie: calling the failed Simputer which costs half the yearly indian income 'affordable'; and claiming the Param is a "16 teraflop supercomputer" !!! These chest-thumping little beggars are becoming a nuisance.
I beleive The Power4 runs IBM's analog of the "altivec" instruction set. The altivec acts as a vector processor with a pipelinable 128 bit bus. that is 4 float multiply+add per instruction or up to 16 short int multipy+add per cycle.
On the other hand why not just buy Mac Xserves? Are these not exportable? Apple benches these things at 15 GigaFlops (sustained) in a 1U case. which means two 40 U racks of these would be a terraflop. Built in interconnections would be dual gigabit PLUS three 400 Mbit Firewire connections. All for the low-low price of $4000 per head or $320000 for 80 units.
heck for that matter, just buy those $199 G4 mother boards and the G4 chips and voila, even cheaper.
What am I missing here?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
It is bad enough everyone in Mexico is stealing our work, now India
Stealing? I thought competing to do work in the cheapest and most efficient way was what your greedy capitalist ethos was all about. In case you havn't realised Mexican and Indian workers need food as well. You may not have realised how your corperations are colonising these countries and sending billions of dollars back to America (e.g. Pepsi & Coke's recent war over the Indian market). To the average American it seems fitting that the easy jobs of expanding ones wealth through working in front of ones computer screen to make a product that generates profit from unethical EULAs, infinite reproductability and deliberate incompatibility while forigners work in american sweatshops, and as teenage prostitutes for American tourists.
To me those "because of third world labour I can't get a job" arguments are reminicent of the "because of niggers I can't get a job" arguments I hear from your countrymen, some of who's great grandfathers fought and died for the right to exploit an american underclass as late as the nineteenth century. Now that the slaves have been liberated you turn your greed and selfishness to the sweatshops in Shanghai and the redlight districts of Pnong Penn and Bankok. You expect them to work for you, you expect them to buy things from you, even things they produced themselves, however you vehemetly oppose people buying things off them, paying a just price for their labor, giving them money to trade with their own merchants, have their own entrepeneurs and own their own country.
p.s. Maybe you wouldn't need to worry about this sort of thing if you didn't make your poor starve in the street. Hell, even Cuba has a better welfare system than you.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
These so-called "supercomputers" only have the performance of a supercomputer on the class of problems which are inherently parallelizable.
:-)
Sure, but that was also true in Seymore Cray's day. Admittedly his machines provided substantially better scalar performance than normal mainframes did at the time, but their rated "supercomputer" performance was only obtainable by operating on multiple datasets simultaneously using vector operations. If your problem wasn't parallelizable, your investment was largely wasted. Fortunately, there is no lack of real-world problems that are inherently parallel.
It's worth noting also that conventional single-machine performance is inherently limited by a number of very strong physical constraints, primarily the speed of light and device leakage currents as transistor geometries become ever smaller. This really leaves us nowhere to go for pure sequential computation speedup. Quantum computers will probably live in a single box to reduce decoherence, but even they require problem breakdown into parallel solutions.
Hence the move away from scalar performance and towards multiprocessor, cluster, and distributed computing. With SETI@home delivering around 15 Teraflops on their specific problem at the distributed end of the spectrum, and with the PARAM Padma's IBM Power4 providing 2 processors per chip and 8 processors per module directly out of the IBM fabs even before assembly of multiprocessors and clusters commences, clearly computation is heading towards a future of high parallelism. And about time.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
... remember the days before GnuPG, where if you are not American, you would wait at PGP international waiting for volunteers to scan the source code and ship it out of the country?
:p
The source code is protected free speech, the compiled version is not. Uh...
So if you import this supercomputer into the States, disassemble it and scan it using tunneling electron microscopes, and re-export the scanned material, you should be OK...
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
where do i get win32 version of clit? can anybody provide the link?
:)
By the way , great name for a proggy... clit...
Very true. Indians are notorious for making excuses for the pathetic state of their country. Fact is indians have NOT endured war or violent revolutions like say Europe or East Asia have. Yet compare the REAL achievements of war-ravaged Europe, Japan, Korea etc to that of India. It is the stupidity, selfish callousness, self-delusions and laziness of the indians that are to blame for Indias LOW status in the world today.
To which war are you referring to? The only sectarian violence in the Middle East recently has been civil wars - witness Lebanon (Maronite Christians, Sunnis, Shiahs, plus Syria and Israel) and the Iranian Revolution.
The Iraq-Iran war does not count - Iraq invaded Iran wanting to take advantage of internal dissention after the revolution, so it is not the case of Iran exporting its revolution (though the Western world supported Iraq for the fear of it.. heh). Iraq uses gas, but Iraq is a secular left-wing dictatorship! Just read up the history of the Ba'ath party if you don't believe me.
One should think people do not really want nuclear contamination in their *own* country, after all.
And the Kurdish insurrection in Turkey, of course, was purely nationalistic: both the Turks and the Kurds are Sunni Muslims. Kind of boggles the mind how millions of Kurds got left out of the Versailles negotiations when they were carving up the Ottoman Empire. Laziness I guess, they just re-used the old Ottoman velayat administrative regions as the basis of drawing boundaries.
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
Do you see one thing sticking out with its absence from that list? Nuclear weapons research? I wonder how Pakistan will respond...
-- Free speech is only free if your time is worth nothing.
Islamic fundamentalism is one good reason. Other then that, we have history: It is Pakistan that has always attacked India. Three times, methinks, although I'll let other supply the years.
There current "ruler" himself attacked even when their PM was holding peace talks.
Pakistan is a military/Islamic dictatorship, one religion; India a democracy, cultural meltpot.
Successive Pakistani regimes have shown they have no qualms about speaking lies and twisting the truth as long as it serves the purpose of fueling the hate against India. The Art of War: In an extremist enviornment, the more extreme or radical your position, the more powerful you become. Same happened in the Talibanesque Islam. Many other examples too.
Pakistan is a nation which, IMHO, has it's identity derived from one fact alone : enemy of India. They have hardly any progress to cheer about, even when you compare to India, and that is saying something.
Large parts of Pakistan's NWFP are actually not exactly under administrative control of the government. Fundamentalism/tribals rule.
Pakistan is the haven for criminal activities. Daewood Ebrahim, belived to be one of the richest persons in the world, operates from Pakistan, through ISI support. Islamic terrorists, in NWFP, who hijacked Indian Airline aircraft were recently discharged from house arrest!
Pakistan's armed forces can't be trusted. Their generals keep popping off democratically elected governments. They also eliminate their own Generals. Figures. Large section of Army commanders and ISI are sympathetic to the "Islamic cause". Imagine, in such a situation, what a commander with nuke trigger might do. He'll launch the "Islamic bomb" against India to ensure martyrdom for himself and his "religion".
And fuck up millions of people. That's why Pakistan is more likely to "lose it" than India.
If the USA hasn't attacked Pakistan like Afghanistan, it is because of some reasons:
1. We need(ed) a base to carry out operation in Afghanistan against Taliban & Co.
2. Fear of Nuclear holocaust.
3. The fact that Pakistan is the centre of Islamic terrorism. Smartly enough, the Bush administration is actually using the military dictator/self appointed president to track down and destroy Al-Qaeda network.
Or that, atleast, is the public line.
Certainly, we have managed to nab a few top Al-Qaeda operatives in Pakistan. Reports keep coming how Osama is only a grasp away. In Feburary, he was almost nabbed; ran away just an hour before a joint raid by US intelligence and ISI. Go figure.
Of course, we are not pressuring Pakistan to dismantle the Islamic terrorist organizations that operate in India. Not unless this business of Al-Qaeda is done with. There are disturbing reports that Al-Qaeda is regrouping in Karachi (the crime capital of the World) and planning to "utilize" the emotions once US attacks Iraq to launch more attacks against US/India/Israeli targets. Let's see.
Cut off their H1-Bs !!!
Go on Europe...keep underestimating in your arrogance and take the gamble. No...really...do it.
s/Europe/Republican America/
I thank you.
Unix does not prevent you from doing stupid things; that would also prevent you from doing clever things.
I cant believe the moderation of parent post!
Like the US democraty is better? with just two candidates which had the possibility to make a president? and where the descission was setteled by courts?
And when the US first got a president, they choosed one which looks for any possibility to make war, just for the fun of it (or probbably PR).
Personally i think that most countries has the possibility to go bananas, but as loong as we have a working UN, then there is still a chance to have some control. (even though the U.S are from time to time trying to crush the UN just because it does not agree with them).
does not like it any more that india/russia/pakistan/osamabinladen has nukes than knowing that the US has nukes.
beowolf cluster of these!
Sorry, i had to.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
Could they have much worse government in 5 years and in pissing contest drop some nuclear bombs on Pakistan?
Or equally, could it be that in 5 years' time the US will democratically elect some redneck who might drop a few bombs on Saddam for the sake of some idiot pissing contest... oh, wait.
Unix does not prevent you from doing stupid things; that would also prevent you from doing clever things.
Who, me? How do you deduce that from my question?
corruption, bribes, unjustice to their own citizens
sounds like america. except maybe in america it's all protected as free speech etc.
bad and very bad candidate
sounds like america.
Since we Europeans don't have a massive software export market we don't have nearly as much to lose from Indian competition. But we will benefit from lower prices and less cash leaving our economy.
We're all going to be hit by IT dept outsourcing. Or we would if the expected flood of work moving to India had not become a slow trickle. Turns out having someone in the same building is desirable...
Yes, yet another anti-US rant... accusations of hegemony on all fronts without any knowledge of world politics, how the US operates, and pandering to the /. opinion that the US is naturally big, bad, and evil. By the way, India is our friend. Please keep up on world politics in the last 75 years before you shoot your mouth off for some cheap karma.
/. to how evil the US is. ON ALL ACCOUNTS. In all ways. And how the US will use everything to attack YOUR GRANDMOTHER. This is not even really as comical as it used to be. Its just downright ignorant and insulting now.
Of course, the rest of you might have noticed that the US was really not included in the conversation initially about supercomputers, it just always seems to hijack the conversation on
Poster, tell me where you come from, so I can return your ignorant favor and call your home "evil and domineering" over something as irrelevent to your life as software piracy in China, or food prices in Algeria.
The problem is that programmers and engineers do not have a strong lobby - this is why we get pushed around and our jobs are so dependent on the current state of economy. What we need is a good organization that will fight for us. Look at doctors, or lawyers, or even dock workers in the west. You think some indian scmuck can just come and work in one of those fields? Of course not, there is a whole labyrinth of tests, certifications and stuff like that that the immigrants have to go through in order to work there. I agree - it is not a free market - but if the aforementioned professions get to use the power of their organizations and unions, why can't we?
I say, if the companies can not compete on the quality of their products but on price, and this is the reason why they outsource programming to cheapo programmers in India, screw them - this should be prohibited, and if they really want to hire the indians, let them move their company there.
Eliminate abject poverty and exchange-rate conjuring by financial systems that basically operate as black-box cabals => and 1 person-hour's work, of comparable quality, would cost approximately the same the world over.
Unfortunately, titanic effort and expense is incurred merely to further poverty, exclusion, famine, disease... through prejudice, ignorance ill-will.
I suppose that this is meant to help keep peasants in their place, the world over. Even if some "peasants" can read operating instructions, or even manuals, and have computer skills. While others don' quite... I don't think it means a thing to those who champion the present state of things.
In the end, though, everyone gets bitten, if not eaten. And they'll probably blame some other bumpkin, thousands of miles away, who is kept at just as short the end of a stick as they themselves are.
Seeing all this go on can even be entertaining, in an opera bufa sort of way, if one just ignores common decency, human empathy and a few other sentiments equally unpatriotic, at present.
In the article, shouldn't the computers be ASCI Blue and ASCI White, not "ASCII" ??
Ok so they start buying chips from China
You seem to think that India and China are on a bit better terms than they actually are...
Most technology really only requires a bit of drive and a few smart people to develop. Hell, that's where it came from in the first place.
Most of America's restrictions on exporting tech overtly rely on the concept that America is just better and smarter than anyone else.
Bull puckies.
If America wants to maintain any sort of commercial lead in technology it has to distribute it in such a way that it's just plain easier and cheaper to *buy* it than develop it yourself.
As Goethe noted, everything has been thought of, the trick is to think of it again. The historical evidence is clear that anything America can think of so can China, Russia, England, Germany, etc.
Oh. Wait, as often as not these countries think of things *first* and America has to play catch-up.
The idea that you can 'restrict' technology is just plain doofey. If you can figure something out so can hundreds of thousands of others.
So go for it India. Think of stuff, build stuff, develop 'home grown' free software, put the screws to American 'tech' companies and make its government sweat bullets.
Maybe it'll get the country off its ass again, like Russia did when it launched a satellite years before anyone thought it would be possible.
Anything but this damned brand name pushing, marketroid driven 'economy' we've got now.
KFG
Nuclear detonations on anything approaching a large scale will have global environmental consequences. I'm not going to kid myself that the Indian government is going to use this on anything so innocuous as cancer research. It's going to be either decryption, bio or chemical weapons research, or nuclear detonation simulation.
--sdem
"The U.S. leads the world in technology". Well, bucko, it hasn't been so for quite a while!
And your source is...?
16 teraflops of Kumeran code doesn't amount to a whole lot of computation.
Do a search for it.
:)
Tell your gf, "I found clit on the internet"
Repeat after me: Seymour Cray
I think you were thinking of Seymore Butt.
I wonder how much would the older model cost, does anyone know? Yes i did not read the articles, i'm in a bit of a hurry. Hehheh, i bet it costs more than i can afford in many many years to come.
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
The fastest known to the public anyway...
Yawn yawn. Yeah, fair competition always seems to be "stealing" when it's brown people doing it.Sure, that's a better solution than learning how to do better work! Let's subsidize overpaid incompetence! It worked for the air traffic controllers, right?I don't know anyone who lost their job because of NAFTA. I know dozens of people who lost their jobs in the Bush Economic Miracle, though.How dare those students perform valuable work when they should be drinking and sleeping around! I bet some of them are brown foreigners too. Who is we kemosabe?
Those who are willing to work, and have some skill, don't need the Federal Bureau of Foreigner Oppression to protect their jobs. All they need is an economy that's not totally hosed.
Well, it used to be because the US considered itself white. Notice how the Brits and Frogs haven't exactly been "kept down" by the US.
Lately they've made some progress, the US no longer opresses entire nations by color. Now, it's non-christians who get to take it up the chute. Let's hear it for progress!
Does it run Linux? if not who cares :)
I think your reply was as far to the other side of the issue as the original one was.
There are some serious issues with the (mis)use of H1B visas here in the US. While they are not directly to blame for all of the IT misery that some people are encountering, they are certainly contributing to it.
Examples: resume loading. Most companies wait until the last minute for getting IT workers and then have a laundry list of buzz words that they're looking for on the resumes. They go to these body shops with their list, the shop loads those buzzwords onto a resume and ship out the person. (Yes, they should be interviewed carefully to determine if they actually have the claimed qualifications.) These people can be weeded out, but meanwhile the collection of resumes of experienced people are completely ignored because they don't have those keywords in them.
Second: salary. H1B IT workers generally make less money than their coworkers. Companies hire them because their rates are more attractive and the body shops are taking big cuts from the money that is being paid. And the victims of all this can't do a thing about it. Why? Well, rock the boat and you're stuck on the next one back home. Remember, no work, no reason to stay.
So, both sides (resident programmers and H1B's) are victims in this equation.
The real problem to point the finger at is contract workers. Everything is done with perma-temps now. No loyalty, no job security, no insurance.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Three times, methinks, although I'll let other supply the years.
Can you please provide references to substantiate these claims?
India a democracy, cultural meltpot.
Umm...Sure it is. Please look up the treatment of Muslims in Gujurat and get back to us.
Pakistan is a nation which, IMHO, has it's identity derived from one fact alone : enemy of India. They have hardly any progress to cheer about, even when you compare to India, and that is saying something.
India was in order of magnitude better shape then Pakistan after partition. Pakistan has to essentially start from the ground up. So, I'd say Pakistan _has_ made a lot of progress all things considered.
Imagine, in such a situation, what a commander with nuke trigger might do. He'll launch the "Islamic bomb" against India to ensure martyrdom for himself and his "religion".
Yeah, exactly like Saddam has got caches of weapons of mass destruction which he's using against the US right now!
Certainly, we have managed to nab a few top Al-Qaeda operatives in Pakistan.
_We_ have nabbed 0 operatives in Pakistan. The Pakistani law enforcement has handed them to us. Please get your facts straight.
Of course, we are not pressuring Pakistan to dismantle the Islamic terrorist organizations that operate in India.
And which would those be? How many terrorist attacks do you _know_ have been committed by Islamic terrorist orgs in India? I'm not talking about random killings that automatically get attributed to Islamic fundamentalists.
"Do a better job than they do for a better price, that's as simple as that."
Bingo. Never, ever try to undercut cheap labor.
The current trend in IT is to commoditize labor and control cost, regardless of the consequences. This generally benefits the H1-B people, whose claim to fame is low cost. As an IT manager, I find the most disturbing trend is the diminished expectations of traditional IT users. Too many people are willing to tolerate buggy software, BSOD, viruses, and security disasters. Then they try to [mis]use a spreadsheet as a database. If this is what passes for reasonable IT functionality, is it any wonder that cheap labor is tool of choice?
I think there is a tremendous opportunity in fixing what is wrong, starting with the communication skills of IT people. We need geeks who can read, write, speak, and listen -- in English. There are enough misunderstandings between the tech people and the non-techs as it is; why let the language barrier contribute to what is already a problem? We need geeks who can "cross-examine the witnesses" in pursuit of the real world facts that drive IT processes.
Modern technology has devalued certain IT tasks. No problem -- concede those jobs to the new "bargain basement" of the job market. Those who are unwilling to retool and upgrade will be left to see their paychecks drained by lowball competetion. If we don't "raise the bar" of expectations, the mediocre commodity brand will be the only kind of IT there is.
There are plenty of things that the H1-B people are not in a position to do. I just hired a programmer/analyst. I needed a person who could negotiate specifications directly with our end users, explain complicated reports and queries, and oh-by-the-way occasionally crank out some code. As I screened the resumes, I forwarded a stack of the acceptable ones to our HR department so they could call the candidates and attempt to set up interviews. My instructions were: "If you call someone to set up an interview and you can't understand what they are saying (or vice versa); don't bother -- move on to the next." Approximately 1/3 of my pile of resumes got tossed. Go figure.
The only problem I see with the H1-B situation is that it cannibalizes the entry-level market. There won't be many American (or eventually European) CS grads when the current ones consider the cost/benefit of investing 4 years of tuition for the privilege of earning data-entry money competing with immigrants whose education was 100% subsidized by their home countries.
Russia doesnt need Indian supercomputers since like china they have developed their own processor (the chinese one is shocking similiar cant help but think it the design was stolen or "shared") and a few years ago they purchased a SGI supercomputer and it was universally accepted that they planned on reverse engineering it. So, who in Russia is buying Indian supercomputers? The only reason I can think of as to why Russia would do this is mere price consideration. The Indian machine must be dirt cheap. Same goes for the Germans who have their own chip industry (euro fighter anyone). Dont know about Canada but I suspect even Canada has it own Chip sector to consider. I guess that if the price is write even our DoD would buy one of these.
How dare you, even in your ignorance, attempt to make this a racial issue!
You have no idea knowledge of the race or creed of the poster you are ranting against in your racially biased response. The only discrimination here came from YOUR keystrokes. The poster could be black, asian, puerto rican, native american, or ANY RACE for that matter... the point is that they are clearly concerned about their respective job market.
If the jobs go, the jobs go, but don't try to reduce someone's concern over thier segment of the workforce to a racial disagreement.
The point of the argument is clearly LOOSING JOBS, not the racial qualities of the group unto whom the jobs are lost. It could just as easily be to Lithuania, Iceland, Great Britain, Sweden, the former Soviet Union, or a fucking island covered with albinos IF that was the burgeoning tech development point undercutting this job market.
So, cry ME a fucking river.
Blissfully yours is obviosuly in a blissful state of ignorance and denial.
in the end they had to use an amercian chip.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
As for why one would use Power4 instead of PowerPC, Power4 is 64 bit and PowerPC is 32 bit. You run out of address bits really fast in 32 bit mode since some people want more than 4 gigs of memory per processor and then if you have to add bits to globally address memory.....
I couldn't tell from the articles, which were thin on technical details, but straight PCI I/O off of a commodity mobo is likely not fast enough either if you are trying to build a "real" supercomputer.
Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
"As offensive as elitism is to us..."
Well, elitism in what sense? People with money putting their kids through the best schools in the nation? Oh wait, that's already happening.
I like the "educational elitism" idea. Require 200% out of the kids. Separate kids based on scores at every educational level. There are those who can easily handle it, and become *very* well prepared for college, and competitive in the world market. Those who can't handle 200% will still give you at least 130%. I've seen it in action (an East European school system; we had entrance exams to get into highschools!), and god dammit, it works.
BTW, on that scale, the US requires about 20%... You have a pulse, and turn in just about anything for your assignments, you're a B student already.
Challenge the kids! They will surprise you with what they're capable of.
"If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty
i work at cray, on the red storm machine that is ..and as others have said, commodity clusters have a hard time applying those resources to solving a problem scalably, the communications latency is just
replacing a 40Tflop machine build it 1996. that
asci red machine is now something like 8th in the
us
too high
There is a lot people don't know about how Indian research programs are organized.
Indian Atomic Agency (BARC) uses its own supercomputers developed independently of PARAM. Their supercomputers are called "Anupam" and are designed specially for Nuclear research.
Here is a link.
Its very unlikely that this computer will be used to any nuclear research.
http://www.brook.edu/gs/brown/bc_report/2000/matha chieve1.htm
Power4 doesn't have an Altivec unit, but IBM is free to implement it in any future PowerPC CPU. Coupla weeks back there was a long discussion at ArsTechnica.com (Macintoshian Achaia) where a guy said IBM could implement it with Power4's existing FPU muscle and one extra vector-permute unit -- no biggie.
;-)
:-)
I know, I love those "a guy said" references too, but he said it very well
Power4 is based on PowerPC the architecture (which allows for 64-bit), so probably the next PowerPC CPU, the IBM PPC 970, is going to be 64-bit too... Why would Apple want to stay at 32-bit?
--The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.--
I agree with most of your remarks except this one. Where do your facts come from about the US supplying Iraq with chemical and biological agents? I think that statement is pure FUD. There are some other innaccurate things too.
Please spal chk
thx
I think you might be surprised at how good some of the school systems in the US are.
My daughter's elementary school is much more rigorous than the one I went to; she and many of her classmates were reading at the end of Kindergarten at the level most first graders were at when I was at that level in 1967. Their math and science entering the first grade was probably better than ours leaving the first grade or maybe second. What I especially like is that they have art that is more than coloring with crayons, but includes real knowledge of of different media, and music where they do more than learn a few songs. In language arts, they keep journals starting in K (naturally, they need a lot of help at the start).
I think in virtually every way, this system is better for our country than the Indian system. More real teaching goes on in the classroom, instead of brutal darwinian weeding and rote drill and memorization. Instead of focusing on culling out people by their inborne talent and drive, it focuses on developing the potential of every child. There is no child left behind; whatever the needs are for the child, be they physically, emotionally, or educationally handicapped, or "gifted" (which is another form of special needs), the system strives to get as much out every child as possible.
The problem is that this kind of system is extravagantly expensive. Class sizes are about 40% smaller than they were whyen I was in first grade in 1967. The teachers are much more highly trained and professional. They have aids to help them, and auxillary teachers for art, music and special subjects. They have greater physical resources, A/V equipment, computer equipment and an extensive, well organized and well stocked library. They also have much higher levels of parental involvement than was the norm when I was a kid.
A system guaranteed to get the most of every child's potential makes sense in our country, which has such nearly boundless opportunity. In an underdeveloped country, it is a much harder choice to make; on one hand a highly educated population would create oppoortunities, on the other hand there are so many pressing needs and just so much money. As it is, in the US, school systems attempting to reach the level of quality that my daughter's school aims for are in dire economic straits. In Massachusetts, where I live, we recently had to borrow 700million dollars on short term to make the state aid payments to localities that cover various mandates, including education which is the lion's share. A few years ago, voters approved a ballot initiative to reduce state income tax from 5.85% to 5%. This, combined with the loss of capital gains revenue and shrinking household income, means that we will probably be eating our seed corn.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You, sir, are a fucktard.
Turns out having someone in the same building is desirable...
I think many in the U.S. actually still feel this way, although you'd never know it from Slashdot's postings. My previous employer tried outsourcing some work overseas and absolutely hated it...it just did not work for them. Their developers are not any better than the local ones...and trying to communicate and coordinate with them was a chore, compared to walking over to someone's cubicle to do it.
I think alot of people on Slashdot are overly zealous about it hurting them because alot of them have been affected by it. The industry NEEDED some correction though, as there are/were alot of people working as developers who frankly shouldn't be. (Even some of the ones who think they are 'geeks') Coding for a living is not for everyone.
And yes...I got laid off too. (Not due to outsourcing or H1B's btw...) And actually I start my new position on Friday. It's really not THAT bad...it's much harder on people who don't have much/any experience though.
Well...I am posting anon to avoid getting labeled a troll for it, but I share the same experience. India is doing some of the same things that happened in the American IT craze...putting some people into it who probably aren't that well suited to it. The money is good for them...so they want to be there though.
One in a handful is pretty good, and the rest really are craptastic coders that get propped up by the decent ones.
Is the machine just a cluster, or is it a NUMA with coherent memory? In other words, can SW running on one of the quads address memory on another quad? Or does it have to send a message (RPC or whatever) through the operating system to gain access to information stored in another quad?
;-)
Closely related question: does it run one operating system image or "N" images (one per quad)?
If it's a NUMA like the SGI Origin server, then it's really interesting. If it's just a cluster of quads in a box, then what is the big deal about? Anybody can put a bunch of quads in a big box; it's mostly a problem of maintaining adequate cooling airflow.
Or does it include some kind of very specialized low-latency interconnect that allows the quads to work together in some useful way on problems that don't have obvious partitioning?
Thanks in advance for any actual information...we now return you to your regularly-scheduled racism...
Umm...WTF is with the shot at Republicans on top of this? Good God....do you people listen to your own idiotic biases? That has nothing to do with what the fucking poster said...trollish as it may have been.
Welcome to indoctrination-land! Get a clue. Slashdot...home of the groupthink!
Well, they might not want India to be flexing its muscles, because this is what triggers reactions from Pakistan. It's called an arms race. See the close timing of nuclear detonations in 1998? Once India showed that it had a nuclear device, Pakistan had to respond (and up the ante, by detonating one more nuke than India did).
Pakistan will only be the nuclear armed state in the area if 1. India somehow loses all of its nukes 2. China disappears off the map. Your reply doesn't make much sense. Additionally, Pakistan doesn't want to expand its territory besides Kashmir, so why is it such a threat? (and theoretically, refusing to export crap to India forces them to be "self-sufficient").
P.S. I'd call Pakistan a (not Islamic) military dictatorship. The extremists don't really control Musharaff much.
---- Live for Music. Die for Trance.
I ask you this... what difference does it make if we are no longer the leader in 'technology' in the world, i guess we are missing out on all that 'stuff' that makes life so great. You know, like.. umm cell phones that wipe your ass, and umm??? toilet paper that wipes your ass, oh wait NVM.
i dont think im making my point (its early!) but all I am saying is its awfully short sighted to feel that if your country isnt 'the one' in the tech industry that something is wrong... is technology an indication of sophistication of culture, so lack thereof indicates savages? i say no.
>> Three times, methinks, although I'll let other >supply the years.
n dex.htm
1947 when pak troops under disguise of tribeman
attacked kashmir
1999 when pak army intruded and occupied posts
in kargil under the disguise even as nawaz sharif was talking abt peace in lahore
>>India a democracy, cultural meltpot.
>Umm...Sure it is. Please look up the treatment >of Muslims in Gujurat and get back to us.
so even in US there r riots betn blacks and whites
doesnt mean this is a white country
basically indian constitution gives a right to follow any religion unlike pakistan which proudly proclaims itself as an islamic country.
>India was in order of magnitude better shape >then Pakistan after partition. Pakistan has to >essentially start from the ground up. So, I'd >say Pakistan _has_ made a lot of progress all >things considered.
and what treasures did india boast of in 1947 that it used to prosper later???
i guess both countries were pretty much in similar shape
>Yeah, exactly like Saddam has got caches of >weapons of mass destruction which he's using >against the US right now!
yeah well it was saddam who had proactively attacked kuwait, he's not exactly apostle of peace is he??
>_We_ have nabbed 0 operatives in Pakistan. The >Pakistani law enforcement has handed them to us. >Please get your facts straight.
oh yeah thats rt
and what abt dawood ebrahim staying in karachi?
kandahaar hijack culprits roaming arnd freely??
>And which would those be? How many terrorist >attacks do you _know_ have been committed by >Islamic terrorist orgs in India?
well parliament attack, akshardham attack??
> I'm not talking about random killings that >automatically get attributed to Islamic >fundamentalists.
oh so killing people randomly is not terrorist attack u mean??
or are you furthering a new theory that islamic organizations are not behind these attacks even though they claim themselves they do it
check out http://www.jamatdawa.org/english/articles/jihad/i
its the web site of harkat'ul'mujaheedin
Oh yeah India is leading the way in supercomputing (laugh laugh). They took some p630s or something similar from the p series
Then they hooked them together with a "native" switch. The details on the switch start to get fuzzy, for all we know it is a Cisco 1000/T Ethernet switch. Then they build an MPI stack (probably a port of an open source one from an American University). So you now have an expensive slower version of what IBM would be happy to sell you for half the price if you lived in America. Yet it is still half the price of what you can get in an export restricted country. So we hold them to paying 2 - 4 times as much for a much less capable machine, that's ok with me. They built it by cobbling together scraps from American technology. It sounds like the supercomputer export restrictions are having some effect.
As far as the US leading technology I just have to say damn straight. Any Indian programmer worth his salt is living in the US, working for a US company. Same goes for most other countries. Plus, the world sends its brightest here for our great University education. Once we have them living in the US do you think they want to return to their home country for poor wages and oppresive governments? Think again.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
This from the country known around the world as the doormat of Europe?
Bring it on affenkinder, we'll kick your butts too.
ur dum
Bizarre. The majority of the threads in this story seem to be either:
.] is quickly surpassing the U.S. in technology [schools/economically/etc. . .]
America Rulez!!! Indians [Japanese/Koreans] are just using American parts!!! We Americans are the Best!!!
Or,
America Suckz!!!! The rest of the world is outperforming America!!! India [Japan/Korea/Canada/etc. .
Both of these positions are stupid, and extremely reductionist. India is developing indigeious technology using foreign components. Why aren't they using Indian processors? Because they aren't just trying to build supercomputers, they are trying to market supercomputers and build the highest capacity system for the purpose of testing nuclear weapons. Good for them, to manage such operations they must be developing fairly modern IT organizations. They managed to beat fairly backwards American legislation designed to restrict exactly that. But this isn't an Indian coup, or a greater trend towards the collapse of the Pax Americana. There are many other factors at play here, folks.
Personally, if I was asked to give a quick, reductionist synopsis of the situation, I would say: India is slowing crossing the line between developing and developed nation, whereas it will have access to the same international and domestic resources that modern industrialized states have access to, including a full franchise within the world capitalist economic system. The modern world really has two economic systems, 1st and 3rd world. I, personally, would like to welcome more members of the 3rd into the 1st (and hopefully, someday, all of the 3rd).
Forgive the bad grammer/spelling, I just rolled out of bed.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
If you have a good dictionary at home I suggest you turn to the section on "Indo-European" languages which has a language chart. The evidence of an invasion (or migration) is present in the very structure of languages like Urdo, Hindi, etc...
sounds like america. except maybe in america it's all protected as free speech etc.
>bad and very bad candidate
sounds like america.
There is a difference, really. Bad candidate in Russia and India may mean public knowledge of candidate's mob support or participation...
Bribes mean - almost everything you need to receive from government should be greased with bribes or else. Can you imagine bribing Motor Vehicle Department just to receive driving license fast?
nitpicking the point. Just because the power4 does not implement the full altivec set does not make it not a vector processor. It is a vector processor.
and as for the interconnects on the Indian Supercomputer these were mainly myranet, which while marginally faster than gigabit etehrnet is not going to be fastetr than dual gigibit Enet plus triple Firewire on the Xserves.
I think the Indian unit may have had multiple cpus at the motherboard level but not a whole lot of them.
Finally, its sort of mixing purposes to worry about both large address spaces and inter-processor communitation speed. since they really are sort of antithecal.
If it were my moiney 320K beats 6 million any day.
Good to see your grammar skills are up there with Dubya's.
what's that in 3dmark2001se points?
The vast majority of Canada's population is in a very small area. There may be a lot of Canada, but most of that area there is NOBODY, unlike the US, where there's a lot, and pretty much everything is at least agriculturally populated.
paintball
I am have a difficult time understanding how 15 teraflops relate to anything, how many of library of congresses is this?
Pakistan is a military/Islamic dictatorship, one religion; India a democracy, cultural meltpot.
I hate it when people tote Democracy as the height of an successful country. Russia is a democracy now, or do you people not notice? I would not want to live, their, though I believe it is a hell of alot better than India.
The overused cliche, Islam bad, Democracy good is just too damned stupid for people to even consider using it. read this small overview of what a great country India is. They are a democracy that is holding together by a thread, with people who gladly see themselves succeed from India proper.
I just cannot stand it when people post this stuff, and it gets modded based upon a child like simplicity of an issue.
India received plenty aid from the U.S. in the 1950s. It receives billions in loans from the World Bank. And it all disappears down a rathole. Face it: indians are among the most corrupt, the most lazy, the most slavish, the least self-confident little beggars in the world. Learn to stand on your own feet and quit trying to ride on the coattails of others who are man enough to be masters of their own destiny.
"India, like the U.S., has quite a bit of poverty" Haha! Just observe this deceitful indian trying to equate India's poverty to the U.S. Who are you trying to fool here, you callous bastard?? It is truly disgusting how these evil jerks try to gloss over the misery of their less fortunate countrymen. And stupid as hell as well, since it surely doesn't fool anyone. Pictures dont lie bozo. Nor do statistics. Nor do first-person accounts of visitors to the hell-hole you have escaped from.
in the third world. Every election a bunch of illiterate idiots elect a bunch of corrupt, clueless morons who then preside over an enlarging cess-pool. What a joke! Then these stupid little chest-thumpers boast ad nauseam of their great 'democracy' hoping to get a pat on their puny backs, not realising that they are actually making a case AGAINST democracy, since India is clearly a FAILED nation.
I never thought this would be sunk into so deep, and I never thought it would warrent a (-1, Troll). People think I am being rasict, but I am not, I am not saying if I am mexican, african, indian, white, or chinese. I just think it is wrong how some companies *cough* microsoft *cough* are paying for people to come from other countries, then allowing them to work for less than Americans, because they are coming from a place where they make alot less money anyways, it is taking advantage of Indians, and it is hurting our economy and workforce by allowing them to work in India after being trained in the United States (even at the companies expence at times). This is not about quality of work, microsoft is hiring all these Indian programmers, and I don't see quality work coming from there. This is also a concern for most of western europe, and other "developed" countries. This is not about the USA being the "biggest and baddest" either, they are not. This discussion could go on and on, maybe I should host a place just for discussing it.
It comes from your own government's files. This has been known fact for quite a long time.
This is not off the topic. It's all american foreign policy, i.e. "More for me, fuck the rest of you"
and it looks like vector instruction support on Power4 is fairly new. Also looks like a very nice chip.
In any case, there are two things that you worry about on interprocessor communication: speed and latency. Obviously, the dual-gig-E + triple Firewire is going to be faster than a single Myrinet card in terms of bandwidth (though I'd be surprised if a Mac or PC could come even close to driving all that gear at full speed), but it may not be in terms of latency. Depending on the application, this can have a huge impact on performance.
320k only beats 6 million if it's good enough to get the job you need done at the speed you need it done at. For some jobs, the $320k machine will work fine. For other jobs it won't. This is why there's still a market for big-iron Cray's, SGI's, Sun's, etc.
As for large address spaces and inter-processor communication speed, they are most certainly both necessary if you have a monster NUMA or SMP machine.
Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
-1 mean people suck
Its all on http://www.wisconsinproject.org/
I think India has a lot of potential right now, and that concentrating on developing its own industry is exactly the right thing to do. Its nukes give it anti-bullying insurance, and building up domestic industry will make it less dependent on foreign investors. It'll take some time, but then you will see a real shakeup in the world order. A war with Pakistan could derail this, though -- better keep a close eye on the CIA.
"There are disturbing reports that Al-Qaeda is regrouping in Karachi (the crime capital of the World) and planning to "utilize" the emotions once US attacks Iraq to launch more attacks against US/India/Israeli targets. Let's see."
Please, check your stats before posting. The crime capital of the world is Washington. There are more murders there then there are in all of pakistan combined.
Are you unemployed ?
Having hard time managing finances and family healthcare ?
And where is the taxpayer money going to go in the new year 2003 ?
This article on CNN website says that the Iraq war could cost our economy $60 billion to $200 billion !!!
Looks like some people are regarding this as a "proof" that India is finally getting there. Wrong. This article proves nothing. India has always had brilliant technical manpower, will always have, but things can't improve until Indians learn to "manufacture" stuff on a certain scale at a level of quality that makes Indian products a viable competitor in the world market. India should attempt to follow the examples of post WW Japan & Germany, and of China in recent years and improve manufacturing quality before she can be "qualified" as a supplier of goods. On the bright side, this is a good start. And the apparent "boastfulness" of Indians may be looked upon as a rudimentary attempt at "marketing" Indianware. Marketing is important, look at it like this, how else did Microsoft's Windows or Oracle's database get "there" from their shaky starts? I might mention here as well that post WWII US can hardly be called a manufacturing nation either. US manufacturing sucks bigtime! Is cheapness of labor the only reason why softeware development is slowly being outsourced? Do you buy a Japanese car because it is cheap? Is it really cheap?
This whole "Islamic = bad, anti-Islamic = good" theme is pathetic, and its a crying shame that the post to which I'm responding was given a +5. Speaks volumes about the bigotry/ignorance (take your pick) of the moderators themselves, as well as the original poster.
Oh, and in response to your claims:
"It is Pakistan that has always attacked India."
False.
" Successive Pakistani regimes have shown they have no qualms about speaking lies and twisting the truth as long as it serves the purpose of fueling the hate against India."
Funny - I don't read/see half as much Indian-bashing on Pakistani media as I see Paki-bashing coming out of India. Also, during times of stress and/or actual conflict, Pakistani media are sometimes banned in India (recent example, Dawn website during Kargil incident). The corollory never happens. Doesn't quite fit with your theory of "twisting the truth".
"Pakistan's armed forces can't be trusted."
Hmm. For all their faults, the Pakistan armed forces are probably the most professional and disciplined organisation in the whole country. Erratic decisions made in the past have usually been by CIVILIAN leaders.
"He'll launch the "Islamic bomb" against India to ensure martyrdom for himself and his "religion". "
Again, typical mindless Paki/Muslim-bashing. The raison d'etre for Pakistan's nuclear programme has ALWAYS been to achieve parity with India.
"Large parts of Pakistan's NWFP are actually not exactly under administrative control of the government. "
Yes, so what. From Pakistan's inception, those areas were deliberately given loose autonomy, and this has been codified into the Constitution (a policy instigated by Jinnah). Thats what THEY wanted. Why is that any of your concern?
"Fear of Nuclear holocaust. "
Really? Who exactly were Pakistan threatening with nuclear holocaust? News to me, and I'm sure most people in Pak.
"The fact that Pakistan is the centre of Islamic terrorism. "
Yawn, Here we go again. New World Order's definition of a terrorist = "a Muslim with a gun".
Its still a non-sequitor. Equating microsoft to the US Gov't.
Also. Please don't think I don't have an international perspective. It is insulting to a person to make assumptions. For I only judge comments, but not make assumptions about a persons character. Making snap judgements about a person's character shows how base a person is.
not on your life my hindu friend
A name you can trust.
I heard it runs OS 2 Warp
A name you can trust.
The poster is claiming someone is entitled by birthright to special treatment - despite inability to compete in a free market.
Either it's racism or nationlism, but either way it's pure bigotry. Employment in a capitalist economy is not dependent on where you were born, or what color you are, it's based on raw market survivability. Learn to optimise your strengths and compensate for your weaknesses, or you will have to live on handouts.
DIE Mozzy Die!!!
Better yet, DIE Pakistani Mozzy DIEEEEE!
You people follow a barbaric joyless religion with NO human rights and live like tribals.
You have NO respect for others beliefs or customs and treat women as commodities.
You stone people to death and forbid the simple joys of life like dance and wine.
And is it wonder that a poor wretched Islamic country like Pakistan supports terrorism?
Like I said...
DIE Mozzy Die!!!
Better yet, DIE Pakistani Mozzy DIEEEEE!
Sorry to come so late to the thread, I happened upon your post while metamoderating.
I'm interested to know what you mean by this:
We are letting people take advantage of us, the GNU/GPL are making us more vulerable to stolen code, how can we profit if people are stealing our work out from under out feet?
I don't see how GPL is making us more vulnerable to stolen code. I mean, isn't it just an option for how to license code you write? The only time you have to make a piece of code you write GPL is when you base it on another piece of GPL code and it's not like that's (basing it on another GPLed app) being forced upon you (unless perhaps it's by an employer or some similar entity).
This is not at all meant to be a flame, or even really an argument, I'm very interested in finding out what you meant by that comment.
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
[this is Nolte, not Preston -- the original poster of the previous comment] I almost puked when I read your signature. That is all.
Around computers it is difficult to find the correct unit of time to
measure progress. Some cathedrals took a century to complete. Can you
imagine the grandeur and scope of a program that would take as long?
-- Epigrams in Programming, ACM SIGPLAN Sept. 1982
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