India Officially Launches Simputer

aravind writes "The Communications and IT Minister, Pramod Mahajan, has launched India's indigenously developed low-cost handheld Personal Computer -- Simputer -- at an IT and Communication expo, SMAU 2002, in Milan. A low-cost handheld PC on GNU/Linux working through a browser for international markup language IML, priced at Rs9000 (less than $200). 200Mhz StrongArm processor, 32MB DRAM, 24 MB flash, touchscreen, speakers, USB, text-to-speech, MP3 capability ... " Look here for some of the previous stories we've run on the Simputer.

Comments

... and you poke at it...

[Anonymous Coward]

From the FAQ:

Q: How do I enter text? Can I attach a keyboard?

A: There are two options on the base simputer for entering text: one is a soft keyboard, that can be brought up on the touch screen and you poke at it to enter one character at a time...

I guess they took it to the point that that even the description is simplified. :)

Re:... and you poke at it...

[LittleBigScript]

Well, it could be simpler.

Do they mean to poke at the Simputer? or something else...perhaps the person sitting next to you.

Stranger: Hey, stop that.
User: I was only trying to use my computer. It says to poke.
Stranger: You must use AOL, too, huh?
User: ...

Ahh, humor, it cures all forms of frustration.
Even the frustration of being unable to poke people.

Re:... and you poke at it...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but as far as I understand the english language, 'it' refers to the last noun. In this case: touch screen.

Re:... and you poke at it...

[kingofnopants]

well they should have put that in the faq too!

Another PDA Device?

[raydobbs]

Why do we need another PDA device, exactly? I mean, yes, it uses Linux - but so does the Sharp Zaurus (sp?), and has had the kinks worked out of the mix more... Is this a case of India just wanting to say 'Me Too!'?

Re:Another PDA Device?

[miratrix]

Yeah, the specs doesn't look too different from Compaq iPaq which has been out for more than 2 years now. However, it is quite a bit cheaper, and it seems like the point of this device is to bring computing to the masses. If you don't have reliable power... etc, PDA just might be the answer.

Re:Another PDA Device?

[Anonymous Coward]

In India - due to political reasons - vote^H^H^H^Hvillagers DO have reliable power, it's the middle-class that suffers.

Re:Another PDA Device?

[Russ Nelson]

This was designed before the Zaurus but after Linux was running on the iPAQ.
-russ

Cheap, but is it enough?

[syphoon]

Its good to see low cost applications such as the simputer being made to help those who otherwise wouldn't have access to any such device. But I wonder, in a country as vast as India with 58 taught languages and 87 different language newspapers (http://www.abhishek.mybravenet.com/languages%20of %20india.htm), how effective would the speech recognition really be, especially when you take into account the lower literacy levels of the demograph its aimed at.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[metlin]

IAAI - I Am An Indian
IAANLPR - I Am An Natural Language Processing Researcher

Ok, although India does have so many different languages, the majority of the people speak a countable few, maybe with subtle differences in dialects. In fact, only about 14 languages are recognized as official languages of India, and almost everybody can speak two or more Indian languages.

So, although the total figure may seem big, using just one language like Hindi would cover significant percent of the populace.

Also, there _is_ a lot of similarity between a lot of the languages, both in the written and the spoken forms. So developing a general prototype system and then expanding on it regionwise would not be as mammoth a task as it may seem.

For example, a lot of the South Indian languages sound similar, have similar sounding alphabets, with a few differences in grammar. The basic difference would come in smaller parts of the language set and may need certain prefixed lexicon modifications.

If these things are going to be custom built for each of these states, then I'm guessing that you'd have a system that is custom-built to the languages of that region.

It may take a while longer and maybe a little tedious, but I suppose that would be just worth the trouble, especially after having come this far.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[The Cydonian]

Not to karma-whore, but just a few additions/corrections (I had posted earlier on the scripts; now including stuff on grammar as well here) :-

• The official 1961 Census listed 1652 "mother tongues".
• Another report suggests that there are 418 "listed languages"
• However, there are 18 (not 14) constitutionally recognised languages.
• Anthropologically speaking, there's little similarity between *most* languages except for geographical proximity; for instance, folks speak Gujarati, Siddhi and Indo-Portuguese in and around the islands of Daman and Diu. It's interesting to note that these languages have derived themselves from Aryan, African and European roots respectively. Very little overlap, historically speaking, but these languages are spoken nowhere else, hence are uniquely Indian.
• But despite all this, there *is* a certain amount of overlap. There are 10 uniquely Indian (as opposed to Indic; Indic would include scripts such as Burmese, Thai, Tagalog and Sinhala as well) scripts which are all derived from the 5th century Brahmi script. A fact that was already researched and recorded in C-DAC's masterful ISCII (Indian Standard Code for Information Interchange) format, which, as I understand, treats each individual language as a specialisation of an existing meta layout.
• It is my contention that the basic grammar for *most* prominent constitutionally recognised languages is inherently same; the grammatical difference between, say, Hindi, Telugu, Malayalam, Marathi, Urdu and Kannada is noticeable, but not significant.

Bottomline: I'm an NLP researcher myself fascinated by languages (see my sig). As much as I'm excited by this project, I really think we shouldn't kid ourselves, coz:-

• Let's admit it; computerisation of *all* Indian languages won't happen in our lifetimes. Denying that would be to deny India's mind-boggling linguistic diversity.
• If you want to increase literacy in India, get your basics right:- increase the number of schools and increase their quality. Don't search for magic bullets. They won't deliver, even if they're tech-y stuff.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[zdzichu]

The submission states about text-to-speech, not speech-to-text, which voice recogniotion is. Text to speech is merely a ability od device o "say" written text, not to recognize spoken.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[metlin]

Interesting post! :-)

I'd however, like to add a few points which I consider relevant :

I absolutely agree that a lot of Indian languages have little or no relation to each other, but the truth is that a significant percentage of these languages can be traced back to a common root. For example, certain Brahmi-derived languages and Prakrit have very common grammatical rules, but are also very different in other ways.

As long as we can find a set of common languages which would serve the majority of the populace, it'd be great. Reaching that in itself would be significant achievement.

Regarding the differences in grammar, yes, you're correct. But look at it from the point of voice recognition. Malayalam and Tamil sound very much alike, and a person with the knowledge of one with absolutely no knowledge of the other can actually understand the other one. But the alphabets of Tamil and Malayalam are phonetically miles away, Malayalam has a alphabets that spell like Brahmi, look like Tamil ones and the lexicon has a lot of Sanskrit. Likewise for Telugu and Kannada. In fact, Kannada has grammatical rules that are pretty much like that of Sanskrit (there is a book called NLP - A Panian Perspective that discusses exactly these issues).

Well, as for what you said,

Let's admit it; computerisation of *all* Indian languages won't happen in our lifetimes. Denying that would be to deny India's mind-boggling linguistic diversity.

Perhaps not all of it, but once you have a large chunk of it, you'll realise that a lot of them are evolved dialects and can be traced to a series of common roots. Look at Urdu, Arabic script with Hindi, Persian and Arabic words in the North, while down south you have a mix of Marathi and Telugu words. So it may not be all that impossible.

Let me rephrase your statement - *Complete* computerization of all the languages will not happen, but basic computerization might just happen, however mind boggling that task may seem.

If you want to increase literacy in India, get your basics right:- increase the number of schools and increase their quality. Don't search for magic bullets. They won't deliver, even if they're tech-y stuff.

Hmmm.. I think the Simputer was originally intended more as a tool to help the farmers and the rural people, not to educate people. In fact, I fully agree with you that technology will not be the only saviour. But then again, tools equip people better. Don't look at the Simputer as the end result, look at it as a tool that'll ease your way into achieving it :-)

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you forget the open source effect. If you release open source code for this machine, people who see they have one sort of language supported but are more comfortable with their own might be bored enough to modify the code to support their version of the language. And then they give it to their friends, and it may inspire another person to say "wow, if these hick losers have their language supported I should code in mine"

But if its closed code you need some big central group to try and unnecessarily learn and code every minor language and dialect out there.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[machine of god]

IAANLPR - I Am An Natural Language Processing Researcher

I realize it's just a typo but did anyone else find that really funny?

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[Tablizer]

So, although the total figure may seem big, using just one language like Hindi would cover significant percent of the populace.

Picking one language to be the "main" language often pisses off certain ethnic groups. It is seen as favoring one ethnicity over another.

If you start from scratch to avoid offending anybody, then you don't have a starting base of speakers to build from.

It is a catch-22 policy-wise.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Indian,
When using "an" in front of a word, make sure the word start with a vowel (a,e,i,o,u) otherwise use "a".
Thank you.
Educated Englishman.
Dear Educated Englishman, this is not always true (you missed a point or maybe your English teacher didn't teach you this !!).
To use "an" before it, the word/acronym etc. must start with a vowel sound, not just vowel letter. For example, "A MBA" is not correct, "An MBA" is.
"A master of business administration degree" is correct while "An master of business administration degree" is not correct.
P.S.: Don't be in an illusion that just your first language being English makes you more smart than any other !!
(Unless for the fact that it gives you a "feel good" feeling about yourself trying to find typos in slashdot posts)
Thank you

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[The Cydonian]

there is a book called NLP - A Panian Perspective that discusses exactly these issues

All roads lead to Rome. Neat book that, for anyone interested in Indian (Indic) NLP.

Re:Cheap, but is it enough?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typo: The title is NLP: A Paninian Perspective
(Panini was a grammarian in ancient India.)
The book's details are:

Natural Language Processing: A Paninian Perspective,
Akshar Bharati, Vineet Chaitanya, Rajeev Sangal, Prentice-Hall of India, 1995.

Average montly salaries

[Drunken Coward]

The average monthly salary in India is somewhere along the lines of $37. A person earning that much could hardly afford the luxuries of such a handheld, even if it could be attained for the paltry sum of $200. Pennies to us, but to them it could take a lifetime to acquire that amount of savings. Until we work to attain far cheaper methods of building computers, these people will be unable to experience the very joy we take for granted. Of course, this is a noble effort and no doubt will further number of Indians able to participate in the IT field, but further effort is needed.

Re:Average montly salaries

[rovingeyes]

Well, even though the average monthly salary might be low, you are forgetting the point that even if 2% of more than a billion population plan to buy (believe me there are people india who are filthy rich) it'd be lot more than the simputer guys could hope for. Certainly you can look at it this way - IT IS A START!

Re:Average montly salaries

[kfishy]

I suppose the government will have to fund it, at least partially. However, the impact apparently wouldn't be that great, since it is designed to be shared by a community

.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

But the point of Simputer is not to make money, but to benefit the poor and assist them in getting a computer they would otherwise be unable to attain. The high price makes the goal impossible to reach.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Albanach]

By reading the FAQ you would learn that the simputer has been designed for sharing by communities. THe examples they give are schools and community centres which are already established as places where shared resources are available to comunities.

The simputer is equipped with a smart card reader which is intended to provide personalisation to the device. The aim is to reduce the cost of _access_ (that's the important bit, not ownership) to the device to that of owning a smart card, not of owning the device itself.

Think of being able to walk into a local library and borrow a computer for a day instead of a book.

Re:Average montly salaries

[arvindn]

Pennies to us, but to them it could take a lifetime to acquire that amount of savings. I live in India, and I what you say is simply not true. You're missing the point that not everyone earns close to the average salary. An Indian "middle class" family (such as mine) could easily have an income of Rs. 50000 ($1000) per month. (That's > 25 times your average!) True, the percent of affluent people is small, but in a country of a billion people its still a large number. I don't mean to troll, but slashdot seems to have the general attitude that India is still a country of snake charmers and tightrope walkers. Get over it. While a majority of the population lives in poverty (and consistently gets screwed by self-serving governments), there is also a large, educated, wealthy technically minded workforce.

Actually, the reason the simputer took so long to take off was that its creators initially focussed on the wrong market - the illiterate masses. No company came forward to mass produce it and only the intervention of the government saved it from dying out altogether. But now that it has gotten off the mark, I think there is a very good market for it out here.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just difficult to produce a computer at too low a price in a developing country. I am even skeptical about Rs.9000. That was said when they proposed to release by March 2002. The first time someone told me about simputers he said it was Rs.12000. Then in a talk Vijay Chandru accepted it seems it would be a lot more than that (18000 or something like that).

BTW in India a PC is about Rs. 30000

Re:Average montly salaries

[Cerberus9]

it could be attained for the paltry sum of $200. Pennies to us, but to them it could take a lifetime to acquire that amount of savings

The average monthly salary in India is somewhere along the lines of $37

How much are taxes in India? For simplicity, I'll assume the $37 represents after tax income. Okay, let's say they really really want one of these and save $5 a month. So, it'll take 3.5 years to save up the $200. That would make it a major purchase, along the lines of, say, a car in the western world, but hardly their life savings. I'd buy the lifetime argument for families taking home $3.50 a month though.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Overcoat]

The reason average income in India is so low is that the population contains many millions of very poor people.

Keep in mind, though, that India's population is about a billion: there is also a large middle income group in the country who could afford a $200 computer pretty easily. This group makes up a relatively small percentage of the population, but this still amounts to several million people

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

1. It's not meant for the middle-class & hence what grandparent says is true.
2. It's not meant for individuals so they really don't want customers to take a lifetime to save that much money & buy it.
3. You must be one of the so-called "Upper" middle-class. There exist middle-class families with incomes less than Rs.10000.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Annoyed Coward]

It costs less than a Television in India. And there are tens of millions of Televisions in India. :-D

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

The sharing part makes a lot of sense, but it's not clear to me why then it must be a small portable machine. Surely they could easily make a full size kiosk PC that would be as powerful, easier to use, cheaper, and more resistant to theft.

But the simputer is still a good idea, and I'm sure people will find many uses for it.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

So another words, there are plenty of upperclass scum that say fuck you to the poor. Oh thats right, they are just low on the caste system. So they deserve to be poor.

Too bad the british still don't own you're ass.

Re:Average montly salaries

[rseuhs]

So according to your strange logic, there should be not a single car in India, because nobody could ever afford it.

Hint: Not everybody earns the same. Out of the billion of habitants, I guess there are a couple of millions who can easily afford such devices without any trouble.

Re:Average montly salaries

[fault0]

Yes, but a larger group of people might pool their resources and get one. I've heard of urban poor (note: not villagers) buying TV's/with Cable in India this way.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

Or it could be upperclass countries that say fuck you to developing countries. Oh thats right, they are just unimportant on the economic radar. So they deserve to be poor.

Too bad the british still don't stick it up your* ass.

*haha, note incorrect usage of you're in parent

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

In the beginning there was the expensive as hell HP calculators. And the nerdlings and engineers said "Wow this is kewl." even though they paid $300-400 in 1970s money to buy them. Eventually as time marched on the nerdlings and engineers bought new calculators and the old tech trickled down to younger brothers, and people who bought them at swap meets. Still time marched on LEDs were replaced by LCD, 9v batteries replaced by 2 aa cells, and then button cells, and button cells backed up by solars cells. LCD resolutions climbed, and costs sunk.

And today you can buy for $3 a calculator packed with more mathematical functions than most of the "educated" population ever heard of.

And very soon the same thing will happen at a faster rate with the simputer. The question is, in 2010 who will have the market share ? Simputer ? Casio ? seiko ?

Some would say that we should give the peasants(because thats what they are) more down to earth tech like shovels, water filters, electric lights.
But these are fixed cost items. They will cost today about the same as they will in 2010. And the peasants have shovels, they can boil water, and they have oil and kerosene lamps for light.

What they "need" is something, even on loan, or 5th hand on loan in 2-3 years is a box that can translate the instructions on some miracle transgenic wonder seed written in German or Portugese. Or some other text or text to speech app. Maybe eventually the young ladies illustrated primer from diamand age fame. Its not yet cheap and easy to export eduction, but its a workable kludge that will get people by.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Whyrph]

That is true for individual users. However, if you read the Simputer site, you'll find this:

The projected cost of the Simputer is about Rs 9000 at large volumes. But even this is beyond the means of most citizens. The Smart Card feature that the Simputer provides enables the Simputer to be shared by a community.
A local community such as the village panchayat, the village school, a kiosk, a village postman, or even a shopkeeper should be able to loan the device to individuals for some length of time and then pass it on to others in the community. The Simputer, through its Smart Card feature allows for personal information management at the individual level for an unlimited number of users.

There you have it - it's not intended for single users.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

Or it could be like Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, Mark 14:7, and John 12:8 - there have always been poor. And a lot of them are in India.

Now-a-days, the British stick it up each other's asses.

*haha, you said "thats" when you meant "that's". And used a sentence fragment. Like I just did.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

abbey madharchod firangi!

CHUP!

Re:Average montly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd have to be a flaming faggot to know that.

Too bad you weren't in the world trade center on Sept 11th, 2001.

Re:Average montly salaries

[Russ Nelson]

You have obviously never been to India. Drive along any commercial street, and about every five hundred feet you'll see an "ISM" sign. This is a telephone booth, only it isn't really, it's just a store that happens to have a telephone.

Indians are incredible entrepreneurs. They'll buy shit for 13 cents and sell it for 14 cents, and make enough money to feed themselves, their children, his parents, her parents, and his maiden aunt who was so ugly that NOBODY would marry her.

Okay? So they'll sell this computer, many people will buy them, and charge five rupees for five minutes. 9,000 minutes later they've repaid their investment.

Indians have incredible family ties. If you don't call your mother on her birthday, you may as well cut off your testicles and immolate them. You're just the worst sort of scum. And you'll write to her, often, too. If you know she has access to a simputer, and you do too, you can write to her more easily.

The simputer helps Indians be Indians. You can bet your bottom dollar it'll sell.
-russ

-russ

In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[Taco Cowboy]

USD 200 might sounds peanuts to many. But in India, it's a hell lot for the majority of Indians.

Simputer is a good concept, but with RP 9000 price tag, I think it'll only benefit (again!) the Rich, the Powerful and the Corrupted, in India, of course.

Can anyone here offer any suggestion as to how to lower the cost ?

Thanks in advance !

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps. they can ditch the MP3 support. doesn't fraunhoeffer (or whoever licenses mp3 stuff) charge $1, or something like that, per unit, for hardware devices to be able to play MP3s ?

it's only $1, but, it's a start

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[nomadic]

But it's not like India doesn't have a middle class. From the posts here you'd think everyone's either a pauper or a millionaire; there are millions of Indians for whom $200 USD would be an investment, but a doable one.

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[viggen]

A start would that communties would buy one and share them! as they get along learning the simputer to use (maybe make money with it) more could be purchased!

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[Anonymous Coward]

It may be only $1, but also "less than USD 200" which makes it a lot in india, according to the original poster :-)

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[Annoyed Coward]

See my post

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"But it's not like India doesn't have a middle class."

"From the posts here you'd think everyone's either a pauper
or a millionaire; there are millions of Indians for
whom $200 USD would be an investment, but a doable one."

In my original message, I said that _most_ of the Indians in India can't afford the USD 200, because it'd be a hell of a lot of money for them.

Then you come in and declared that the "millions of middle class people in India can afford the USD 200"

Oh, by the way, what's the total population of India ? Mere millions or OVER A BILLION ?

You see, the "millions of middle class people in India" that you mentioned, in the sea of BILLIONS OF IMPOVERISHED people, is but a drop in the bucket !

In other words, MOST OF THE INDIAN PEOPLE IN INDIA CAN NOT AFFORD THE SIMPUTER, it's as simple as that.

Re:In India, less than USD 200 IS A LOT !

[nomadic]

First of all, it's not billionS, it's a little over 1 billion. Secondly, I was objecting to the way people were implying that "most" meant "almost all"; a SIZEABLE percentage of the Indian population, especially in the large cities (and there are a lot of them, and they are LARGE), can afford them. No, not everyone can, but I don't think that was the purpose of the Simputer.

So why can't anyone else do this?

[rossifer]

If the PalmOS sells for $5 to $7 in quantity, why isn't Handspring making money hand over fist on their palmtops at $400+?

And wasn't the first sub-$300 wince device just announced? Without anything close to these specs...

So, where can I buy one?

Ross

MP3?

[kfishy]

where is my dear Ogg? :(

btw, time to update the PDA poll :P

Re:MP3?

[mdechene]

Ogg takes too much processor horsepower for a 200 MHz to handle, I'd guess. Its significantly more than mp3.

Re:MP3?

[kfishy]

Ogg Vorbis was ported to Sharp's Zaurus earlier this year. It has a 200MHz StrongArm processor too, so I don't see why they can't do the same with Simputer. I would love to have an inexpensive Ogg-capable handheld ^_^

Re:MP3?

[Pius II.]

Furthermore, according to the FAQ:
"Any X application that restricts the display to 240x320 will directly run on the Simputer."
So you could even build your graphical player of choice on this thing. Of course, with only 24 Mb flash, this thing wouldn't be that much fun. With a 20 GB USB HD, OTOH... :-)

IT doesn't replace education.

[Krapangor]

This is a really stupid waste of money.
India's problem are not people who don't know how to use a computer, India's problem are people who can't read or write at all.
What use whould such people have for a computer ?
I doubt seriously that it had Hindi speech recognition (Hindi is much harder to do than French or English).
So these people would be able to buy for a 2 years wages a high-tech doorstopper.
That's classic wasted goverment effort. How about building schools instead ? Or creating decent taxes to distribute the enourmous wealth of the rich to the poor one so that they can efford education or even a real computer in some time ?
But as always technology without meaning.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[kfishy]

One would think that with at least 500 million people literate, Simputer ought to have some use to the general population. I mean, 52% is quite big to qualify as "elite", wouldn't you think? Remember that this is only a very tiny step in the right direction to solve a really big and widespread problem (actually two, poverty and literacy :P).

Also, Hindi speech recognition is not necessary harder to do than French or English. The difficulty of a language to typical Europeans is usually not an important factor in speech recognition. In fact, with so many phonetic and grammatical irregularities, English is probably one of the most difficult language (widely in use, of course) to be analysed/zed systematically.

And rest assured that this is definitely not a screwed up time consuming and money wasting project by the Big Evil And Corrupted Government (TM). Oooh no.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Mac Degger]

You should realise that having a coupleof these in out of the way villages can actually help people to read. A "learning to read and write" program should be pretty easy to program on such a machine...drop it in a smallish group of kids, and they'll have it down soon enough. This device is an enabler for what you're complaining about. And at the low cost of the machine, it's actually quite do-able for the governemnt (ie affordable).

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Annoyed Coward]

That is not true. Since your post is based on piece of guesswork about India, I dont take it seriously. The infrastructure for education is in place. It is not perfect, but it is in place. And most of this is geared to provide computer education as well. The development of Simputer, (and supercomputer, and optical fibres, and satellites, and nuclear power stations) is part of taking the country in the rank of developed nations. The Simputer will find local consumers, no doubt. But, if it hits American markets, it could replace lot of chinese devices.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[cilix]

You don't seem to understand just how expensive education is.
Developing computer systems is expensive, but in comparison to developing a working education system for a billion odd people, it's really, really cheap. I don't know, but i would be suprised if the Indian government wasn't spending a hell of a lot more on education than they are on this machine.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[The Cydonian]

You miss the point. I regularly travel to India myself, among other internatioal destinations, so this is no *guesswork* of any sorts. The point is, as you yourself have so correctly said, the existence of an education infrastructure. Did you know that over 50% of students in Uttar Pradesh flunk their primary schools? And really, do you think this 9000 rupees thing will have *any* effect on classrooms in villages? If my experience is any indication, some bigshot somewhere up there will pocket the Simputer, claiming that it won't be useful for kids.

My take:- Great that someone (okay, someone from India for all those patriotic Indians out there :-D) developed a cost-effective PDA, but let's not start having wet dreams about it. It ain't gonna change anything drastically.

Don't take it personally, but I really don't think you should troll just because someone else doesn't sound Indian and has something negative to say. I know that there are a lot of anti-India trolls out here in /., but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't rub off someone else's point. For all you know, it could be valid.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[vsync64]

Hrm... Sounds like the primer in The Diamond Age.

SPOILER ALERT SPOILER KEEP SCROLLING ALARM!

I'm reminded of the scene at the end, with the army of Chinese orphans or whatever, all trained by the primer. Kinda fascinating how life seems to imitate art, and it would be an amazing thing for a device to have a cultural impact anything like the fiction depiction.

I can't help wondering if this might have a bigger effect than just that of simple literacy, organization, or MP3s. Many posters have mentioned a wealth disparity and massive corruption in India. If this device helps more Indians become literate and computer friendly, and Internet access (even 1 kiosk for every 50mi^2) becomes more widespread, I can't imagine some kind of political organization not taking place, whether it be labor unions, election rallies, lobbying, or all of the above.

Strangely enough, such organization would likely appear as the organic "seed" model mentioned in The Diamond Age.

Ah well, one can certainly hope for some sort of social improvement through technology. If any place needs it, India is probably it.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[vsync64]

What use whould such people have for a computer ? [...] So these people would be able to buy for a 2 years wages a high-tech doorstopper.

Don't underestimate people, even poor brown people.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Anonymous Coward]

"...that they can efford education or even a real computer in some time?"

And maybe they can send a little money your way so you can learn how to spell.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you POOR TORTURED SOUL! How dare these people try to better themselves! Why a family could save for years and years as the costs of the machine fell farther and farther. Eventually when the country is flooded with simputers you'll have your REAL computer with an AI in it to explain to you in detail why you are so so clueless.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Bubblehead]

This is a little off topic, as it concerns computers in classrooms, and not for people in rural environments.

This week's Economist runs a story titled "No real help, and sometimes harmful" (unfortunately, only available with a paid subscription). It comments on a study that got just relased. From the article:

In the current Economic Journal, Joshua Angrist of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Victor Lavy of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem look at a scheme which put computers into many of Israel's primary and middle schools in the mid-1990s. Dr Angrist and Dr Lavy compare the test scores for maths and Hebrew achieved by children in the fourth and eighth grades (ie, aged about nine and 13) in schools with and without computers. They also asked the classes' teachers how they used various teaching materials, such as Xeroxed worksheets and, of course, computer programs.

In a nutshell, the study concludes that computers are of little help in the classroom, and sometimes even harmful (as students get easier distracted, etc.). It's interesting, however, that both, teachers and students, use computers heavily for homework and class preparation, where they are quite effective.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Anonymous Coward]

But this way they can instant message each other, and find out the best begging spots, the ones with the least black flies; track each other's hunger strikes; and monitor the price of cattle on the Chicago commodities market.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose that when an American company makes a PDA (such as Palm Computing) they are doing something really innovative.

I mean, no one says, the Palm is not a real computer, so don't buy it. The funny thing is that the Simputer looks to be far more powerful than the Palm and is based on an open hardware specification - something like a GPL for hardware.

But when some people in India (those who have been fortunate enough to have good education, exposure and the chance to make a difference) decide to create a computer that will allow their less fortunate country men and women to enjoy the benefits that the great unwashed masses of slashdot.org enjoy frivolously everyday, then no they are wasting their time.

Do you think that India does not have schools ? Does your government distribute the enormous wealth of your rich to the poor ones ? I've seen tramps sleeping in winter under vast highrises that cost a fortune.

But that is the 'civilized' world where technology has meaning. In our world, I suppose technology has no meaning, especially when the plan is to harness technology to allow at least some of the poor to become wealthier or more knowledgeable.

Because these people are poor, they should not have computers - no they should have school instead (as if the Simputer does not make this even cheaper to make into a reality than alternative solutions)

No, you sir, are an idiot. I think people like you are the reason why Indians and Africans should take their destiny into their own hands. Being educated and being from a rich country does not make you smart, sensitive or subtle.

The simputer is a real computer BTW. I don't know what your definition of computer is, but you don't seem very knowledgeable to me.

I can't believe you got modded to 5 on this.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[teetam]

I know I'll be moderated down, but here goes.

There are two kinds of posts in /. when a story is posted about India. One is the intelligent (and technical) analysis of the news itself. The other is posts such as yours. The main point of the latter is simply this - there are many poor, illiterate people in India, therefore, India should forget about technology and concentrate on feeding and educating its masses.

Well, I have been living in the US for many years now and I have seen my share of poor and homeless people in NY and SF. Does that stop the USA from spending billions on fighter planes? Whenever a luxury car or a costly tech gadget comes to the market, do you ever stop yourself to ask -"Can the people in trailer parks really afford this?"

Of course not. Then why the hypocrisy when it comes to India (and other non-white countries) alone?

Every country in this world (first or third or otherwise) has its share of have-nots and haves and the extremely wealthy. This should not prevent the scientific and engineering communities in those countries from innovating.

I am not sure if the Simputer will succeed. If I were to guess, I would say no. But, disregarding the merits and demerits of Simputer as a whole and merely repeating "India is poor" does not make a proper discussion.

Every time a topic about India or China is posted to /. we have to wade through scores of such arguments and counter-arguments before finding any real discussions about the topic itself. That is ludicrous.

Re:IT doesn't replace education.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Every country in this world (first or third or otherwise) has its share of have-nots and haves and the extremely wealthy. "

People in trailer parks do not suffer from hunger and their children do not die at rates commonly found in India.

Re:Posted @05:14AM EDT?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Let's see how many days it takes for CmdrTaco to notice the problem and fix his cock.

Funniest typo ever.

from the FAQ

[jas79]

Q: Can I create a Beowulf cluster using many Simputers?

A: You must be a /.er; in which case you know the answer!

Re:from the FAQ

[Large Green Mallard]

I thought you were just making this up.. but this is actually on the FAQ.. how cool :D

Re:from the FAQ

[Subcarrier]

Q: Can I create a Beowulf cluster using many Simputers?
A: You must be a /.er; in which case you know the answer!

Which would be no. Your average slashdotter has to strain a little just to imagine a Beowulf cluster of those.

Re:from the FAQ

[kfishy]

So, does it make me not a ./er if i don't know the answer? Nooooooo...

Re:from the FAQ

[silentbozo]

Given that there's a USB port and a phone port (powered by some sort of software modem), you have two choices to network your equipment. The real problem with clustering will be power -you'll have to hack each case with an adapter to supply 4.5vdc. A more elegant way of handling this would be if they allowed you to supply power to the simputer via the USB port (say, could you get enough current to charge your batteries?)

It's funny that they talk about client-server processes for the simputer, since it lacks wireless access (when I think of portable devices talking to other devices, I think wireless.) However, if you can implement a common interface for connecting to a network and charging via a common port (could USB work?), you could install ports all over the place.

With this kind of distributed computing in place, India could soon be home of some serious computational power...

Re:from the FAQ

[Subcarrier]

Yeah, the talk of client-server does seem a little strange. I thought the device was designed primarily for standalone use, the reason being that the power grid, not to mention networking infrastructure, is not generally available.

Lack of wireless capability does make sense in terms of cost and power consumption. I suppose you could easily add a Bluetooth USB dongle for short range wireless connectivity to get some ad-hoc networking capability at the expense of higher power consumption.

Re:from the FAQ

[Ilgaz]

the second:

Q: Does it come with The Sims?

A: You must be a /. er, please read before asking.

Re:wOOt

[amentia]

ok. got the first non-troll post, now I can explain my question.

What's the avarage monthly wages of an indian?
Is it really that cheap?

This could be trouble...

[Anonymous Coward]

All the IT professionals reading this, if this causes a boom in the number of qualified Indian techs, we could all be either out of a job or being forced to work at 3rd world rates.
Be afraid.

Re:This could be trouble...

[Anonymous Coward]

You better be scared.
Some facts that you didn't know

Your med schools are filled with Indians and Chinese.

Your grad schools are filled with Indians and Chinese.

Soon these people will head the organisation you will work. Imagine that!!!

-PMFI

A few things about India

[panurge]

First, India has a big educated middle class. Over 100 million people. They don't have the sort of incomes we do in the West, but a $200 handheld is within their possible budgets.

Second, India has huge potential in IT as their materials-poor economy has encouraged education in mathematics and other subjects which do not require expensive learning facilities - you do not actually need a computer to learn computer science, but it sure helps.

Third, India cannot afford lots of imports from the US, Korea or Japan. They need to be self-sufficient (even if it wasn't one of Gandhi's principles).

Fourth, the demand for such things is enormous. Believe me, I once thought I was going to find myself in prison in Mumbai because I had an HP calculator and a mini circuit tester in my luggage ("Admit, you have brought these to sell on black market")

Fifth, even poor Indian villages have the odd educated person who will provide services for the locals - and such people would benefit enormously from a handheld. The idea that every peasant should ultimately have a compactflash/smartmedia card with all their own information on it, is actually a hugely enabling one in a subliterate culture because it allows them access to a personal store of information. If it has to be retrieved by symbols on a soft keyboard and text-to-speech, does it matter?

Unfortunately, looking at some earlier posts, India and China are far from having a monopoly on illiterate peasants who don't know what goes on in the rest of the world (flamebait)

Re:A few things about India

[kfishy]

actually, it's slightly over 1 billion people as of July 2002.

Re:A few things about India

[EnglishTim]

He was talking about the educated middle classes, not the total population.

Re:A few things about India

[kfishy]

oops...sorry i missed that :(
i better try read comments more thoroughly next time. (it is 5 in the morning)

Re:A few things about India

[Anonymous Coward]

India and China are far from having a monopoly on illiterate peasants who don't know what goes on in the rest of the world

lol brilliant

taht coment is teh pwn

Re:A few things about India

[nels_tomlinson]

Third, India cannot afford lots of imports from the US, Korea or Japan.

Think about what you just said: You said that we in the US, Korea and Japan can't import from India. Why? Because if they don't import from us, we'll never get the Indian currency we need to buy their stuff! Trade has to flow both ways, in the long term.

They need to be self-sufficient ...

Again, think about what you're saying. If this were sensible, then any country could enrich itself by closing its borders. More than that, your family could enrich itself by not trading with others! Taking it to the ultimate absurdity, you would be better off if you had no intercourse (trade, that is!) with the other members of your family.

Perhaps you meant that India needs to protect infant industries, so that it can become competitive in things like steel and auto production. Why would that be good? Assuming that it is good, why do you think that such protection would produce the desired effect?

Think about the US steel industry: they have been more or less protected for decades, and it has kept them from becoming competitive with the world market. Protection from Japanese imports certainly didn't encourage the US auto industry to adapt to the Japanese standards of quality and value, and it certainly did keep the cost of cars in the US higher than it otherwise would have been.

That leads us to an obvious conclusion: a closed economy is a luxury in which only a large and rich country can afford to indulge. Cutting yourself off from the rest of the world impoverishes your citizens, and that is exactly why India has remained so desperately poor for so many years after the British stopped exploiting them: they have maintained a closed economy.

The US became large and rich by trading with the rest of the world. We managed to avoid sinking too deeply into mercantilism and protectionism, and so our industries were forced to develop to the point that they could sell overseas, and our people were able to buy the inexpensive goods which flowed back here in return. This enabled the US-ians to live better, devote more resources to future development (such as education for their children), and to attract immigration by able people from other areas, where conditions were worse for the average worker. As long as India maintains a closed economy, they're closing themselves off from taking this path which made the US rich.

Re:A few things about India

[Tablizer]

you do not actually need a computer to learn computer science, but it sure helps.

"What is this 'syntax error' thing? I averaged 97% on my exams. My program is 97% right. Isn't that good enough? I was second in my class!"

Seriously, though, there are probably plenty of older machines around to at least learn C on. 386's, 286's, etc. Rather than dump old machines, perhaps India can use them........wait, that would just make more H-1B's. Nevermind.

Re:A few things about India

[Russ Nelson]

The reason India cannot afford lots of imports from the US, Korea, or Japan is BECAUSE THEIR GOVERNMENT CHARGES INCREDIBLY HIGH DUTIES. The theory is that they're protecting the native computer industry, but since there is no such thing, everybody just buys their computers from HP, or Dell, or Compaq, or whoever.

That's why you were accused of smuggling in high tech items, and that's why the demand is so high.
-russ

Re:A few things about India

[Russ Nelson]

Woo hoo! You know about free markets, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me. Oops, wrong movie.
-russ

Available outside India?

[Ed Avis]

So are these things going to be available in other countries? Assuming the software is available (and it's Linux, so why not) then this thing could stomp on the Ipaq and other more expensive handhelds. At least for price-conscious buyers such as schools (the old Psion Series 3 and 3a had some success in British schools marketed as the Acorn Pocket Book - and it's a lot cheaper to buy ten of these handhelds for a classroom than a couple of PCs).

Re:Available outside India?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, this is slashdot. You will be promptly modded down for criticizing socialism. Get with the program man, government is all good and big corporations are all evil. /me proudly adjusts his slashbot hat

Re:Available outside India?

[k4biR 5uxXoRs KoX]

.

they're going to be available wherever my mom's pussy is. wedged inside. oh baby. i can smell it now.

1. just like india. fuck you. fuck rms. fuck cmdrtaco. peace out bitches.

Re:Available outside India?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, guess you were right. I've learned my lesson. Only talk about the nice, beautiful gracious governments of the world and how they are solving everyones problems =)

Kinda reminds me of Animal Farm

-Jacques

Re:Available outside India?

[Russ Nelson]

It's not *impossible* to start a business in India, otherwise nobody would eat or wear anything. It's nearly impossible to start a legal business in India.
-russ

Simputers need not be for an individual

[Anonymous Coward]

I had attended a talk by Vijay Chandru (the no. 1 contributor to it) & they said their aim was not only to provide individuals with cheaper comps. but to provides groups of people as well.

In India, many village children (as well as grown-ups BTW) have never heard of comps. & even in cities. not many schools (incl. mine) have more than 10 comps. Those schools can instead invest on 10 simputers (for probably 1000 students!) which would be more cost-effective.

They also say they don't want hi-fi speech synthesiser/recogniser as to learn a language (which is what village students as well as other villagers are expected to do), that's not required. It's OK if there is no proper intonation. The villagers can probably learn intonation later on but learning to write/read something even in their native language is still a great breakthrough.

The major problem faced by them is discontinuation of StrongArm processors by Intel. It's obviously very expensive to design a processor for simputer in India today.

Re:Simputers need not be for an individual

[kfishy]

Hmm interesting stuffs. Hopefully the government in this case will step in and subsidise the computer for communities that are not as fortunate as the schools that you mentioned. But one thing at a time ;) However, the issue with StrongArm does seem quite pressing. Any good alternative than our "good friend" Intel?

Re:Simputers need not be for an individual

[Russ Nelson]

Hopefully the government WON'T step in and subsdize (with a Z, thank you very much) them. If they're subsidized, you won't be able to buy them outside India. And yet selling them outside India is *exactly* what the Indian market needs. The more sold outside India (where most people can afford a $200 PDA), the cheaper will be the cost of production, and the cheaper they can be sold inside India.
-russ

Re:Posted @05:14AM EDT?

[Anonymous Coward]

ah, little freudian slip there... now we know what you really spend your time thinking about.

Speaking of reliable power....

[LeapingGnomeArs]

This thing takes three AAA batteries, are these readily available in India? In the US they cost a couple of bucks for a pack, so going by what someone else stated as the average Indian making $16 a month, they are supposed to spend 12.5% of their income on batteries?

Re:Speaking of reliable power....

[silentbozo]

If you're a geek (probably, if you get one of these), you'll probably also find a way to get your hands on some rechargable nicad batteries, and a charger (solar or conventional) to charge em with.

For those who get one of these gizmos, who aren't geeks, they'll just find a local geek to hook them up with the requisite technology. I expect the local village tech to build a side business supply them with a set of rechargable batteries, which he'll recharge at his shop for a fee, if there doesn't already exist a service like this now...

Re:Speaking of reliable power....

[Anonymous Coward]

AAA batteries ARE available in India, and no not for $2 but about Rs.10 (20 cents).
Don't expect costs in developing countries to be equal to those in the US. Heard of Eastern Economy/Low Priced/... Edition of Books specifically for South Asian & nearby developing countries?

Re:Speaking of reliable power....

[Funkitup]

My experience of India was that batteries are readily available and at much cheaper prices than in the West - though maybe only in tourist areas.

I wouldn't like to think of the environmental impact of 1 billion waste batteries however!

I'm not sure they've really thought about that too much.

Re:Speaking of reliable power....

[Annoyed Coward]

India has pockets of communities, that can be comparable to developed nations. And salaries of US$500 to US$5000 per month is not uncommon in those areas. The disparity will remain till India becomes a powerful developed nation.

Re:Speaking of reliable power....

[fault0]

> My experience of India was that batteries are readily available and at much cheaper prices than in the West - though maybe only in tourist areas.

Actually, batteries are usually carried by pretty much every street snack/"pan" shop in India, and there are a lot of them (sometimes multiple ones per block), especially in cities.

Good suggestion !

[Taco Cowboy]

Yeah, they could go ogg vorbis indeed.

But that begat another question -

Is there any Ogg Vorbis firmware available ?!

Now I can easily beam information...

[SensitiveMale]

back and forth with the local convienence store clerk.

Re:Linux

[LucidityZero]

No, it's basically the opposite. Anything falling under definition of GNU (including Linux) is required to have GNU in the name. Infact, almost every major distribution you know should have GNU in the name. GNU/Mandrake, GNU/RedHat, GNU/Debian, GNU/Gentoo... If you really want to get technical (like you obviously are attempting to do) there are many places you should be seeing GNU that you aren't. GNU/Linux is a perfectly acceptable and legal way of describing Linux. You do know what GNU stands for and what it means, right?

Finally

[abhikhurana]

So finally the simputer has been launched. But that doesn't mean it works flawlessly. Until about 2 months ago, they had some problems with their text to speech software, dhvani, and they were planning to go for a closed source solution from another indian company.
Now for some of teh concerns raised in the article, as usual about average India salary and stuff like that. The aim of the project is not that every peasent should own a Simputer of his own. In India, in villages u have small committees which are elceted by the villagers, and these committes are allocated some budget by the government. So the idea is that every committee buys one Simputer and then the villagers can simply use thier own compact flash card if atall required. I mean its use was forseen in making weather prediction services and agricultural help availaible to the farmers. For that you dont need ur compact flash. If you want advanced services, then u can buy one, but then compact flash cards are not all that expensive.
As far as the Indian middle class is concerned, currently they account for around 40% of the population. Not all of them will feel the need of buying something like this, but they very well can. That is 400 million people.
I am just waiting for a review now. Maybe I will get one in December and write one myself. I enjoy working on stronARM and I think it will be interesting to hack this thing.

Open-source initiatives from India, wow!

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine open-source spreading widely in the world's most populous countries! In a few years the no. of open-source fans will overshoot the no. of foes!

A couple things

[gralem]

First: IML stands for "Information" ML, not "International" ML.

Second: The product is not shipping, it was just presented by the IT Minister of India. No shipping date has been set by any company. Aparently the people at simputer.org do not build the product, they licence the hardware to be built. There are no listed manufacturers of the simputer.

It is not shipping, it is not available. (But according to the FAQ, it should be shipping by March 2002!) All said, the hinduonnet article is simple marketing fluff (ala M$, RH, etc).

---gralem

Re:A couple things

[kfishy]

All said, the hinduonnet article is simple marketing fluff (ala M$, RH, etc).

Also known as "PR".

BTW, the FAQ also said that IML is a.k.a "Illiterate Markup Language". Not my words, and no offense intended, of course.

Re:A couple things

[Anonymous Coward]

First: IML stands for "Information" ML, not "International" ML.

I thot that is what XML was supposed to be. So what the hell is IML?

Re:A couple things

[gralem]

From the Simputer FAQ, IML is basically an XML document type. It's a spec that the simputer people wrote to control the user interface of the computer. It doesn't use palm/wince/qtopia as the UI... it uses a graphical interface that is controlled using IML.

---gralem

The features do not really matter...

[jukal]

Although the featureload of the Simputer is quite convinving, the main point is that this is now obviously the first truly open hardware project to have actually entered the martket. Let's see if it opens the floodgates....In the future, however, the featureload might be even more impressive as the open HW approach surely enables fast and cost-effective development.

Re:The features do not really matter...

[tanveer1979]

Floodgate opening will take some time. The reason is that the chip industry is a very very challenging market. The costs involved to make a semiconductor plant is huge, and open hardware may not be as viable a business model, except for some things which will have a huge customer base.

Another major daunting factor is cost to developer. Open source developers need a computer and gcc or g++ or java... etc. easy cheap. But for VLSI design you need tools for which very few viable products are available. Of course we have open source simulators and open source compilers for verilog etc, but they are useless for anything more complicated as a 20 gate oscillator. Moreover cell libraries are all developed in house by companies and even if people sit and write freee verilog code, it will be difficult to productize it again for the same reasons that making hardware is way too more expensive that software.

I know many will differ on this and give the argument that OSS also started like this, but what people tend to forget that the major input in software is brain, intelligence and infrastucture is a relatively small percentage, however in hardware, a major input is "machinery" "fabs" which are actual physical things costing loads of money. It will be good if atleast open verilog or VHDL code starts to float around more that today.

Re:The features do not really matter...

[MyHair]

the main point is that this is now obviously the first truly open hardware project to have actually entered the martket.

Great! Where can I buy one?

Seriously, I want one but no one seems to actually be making or selling them.

And I live in the USA. If they start making these in (or for) India I hope I can get one shipped here.

Re:Linux

[mdechene]

Yeah, next you're gonna want us to stop calling the old MS OS's "Windows 9x", and refer to it as DOS with food coloring.

Form factor

[e_n_d_o]

PCs can get into the $200 price range. Systems can be found for as little as $200 at Walmart (sans $99 15" monitor).

Based on what I've seen here, I imagine it would have been possible to develop a system in the $200 hardware price range with a 13" monitor. I'm curious to know why they didn't choose a larger form factor for the machine. The advantages of the PDA-style design are portability, power consumption, and a pen-based interface. The cost is a tremendous restriction in capability, and the requirement of developing properietary hardware. I imagine that portablility will also often be a negative, as the device is a handheld and its a fact of life that people drop things (of course, I'd be much less likely to drop my PDA if it cost me a year's salary).

These devices sound like a remarkable achievement, and I wish them nothing but success. But I am curious as to why they didn't go with a bit bigger of a box.

Re:Form factor

[Atrahasis]

The three advantages you list are exactly what they need. 1/ Low power consumption - uses batteries, so you don't need to plug it in (you'd be lucky to find somewhere to plug it in in the undeveloped areas, wouldn't you). 2/ Portability - so it can be shared by communities - is one of the main aims of the project. 3/ Pen based interface - so people can be taught to read and write using it. The two disadvantages : 1/ Limit in capability - less than 5 years ago my desktop was based on the StrongArm, and I can tell you it wasn't 200Mhz. It was still a lot faster than the ix86's around at the time. 2/ Requirement to build prop. hardware - the project doesn't manufacture - it licenses (or will) the manufacture out to tech companies. I'd say this was an advantage because they can keep the price down by using the lowest bidding contractor.

Please tell that to Malaysia

[Taco Cowboy]

Your message's title "IT doesn't replace education" is indeed very striking, considering that the government of Malaysia - a fifth-rate country, mind you - is on the path of REPLACING education with IT.

Specifically, the Prime Minister of Malaysia has commented on several accounts that,

"The teachers are mere facilitators. The main point
is the computers, where the students learn from. The
teachers just _help_ out if any problem arises."

Dunno what will happen to the children in fifth rate countries such as Malaysia.

Re:Please tell that to Malaysia

[nels_tomlinson]

Your message's title "IT doesn't replace education" is indeed very striking, considering that the government of Malaysia - a fifth-rate country, mind you - is on the path of REPLACING education with IT.

Specifically, the Prime Minister of Malaysia has commented on several accounts that,

"The teachers are mere facilitators. The main point
is the computers, where the students learn from. The
teachers just _help_ out if any problem arises."

Dunno what will happen to the children in fifth rate countries such as Malaysia.

Well, if that pronouncement is taken seriously by all concerned, I'd say they're screwed. Fortunately for those kids, it probably won't be. The bad teachers won't (hopefully) get much worse, and the good ones will keep on doing what they've always done.

Re:Please tell that to Malaysia

[thumbtack]

That's one senile old mans opinion...Mahathir. Malaysia still provides their techers with living quarters, and education is highly regarded among the people in Malaysia. Teachers there are more repected than here is the US.

Simputer/Literacy

[Omkar]

An issue that's been raised here is the uselessness of the Simputer to an illiterate population. Couldn't the Simputer use its text/speech capabilities to teach people to read? This would eliminate two huge problems with one stroke.

Re:Simputer/Literacy

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up!

That's exactly what the simputer is aimed at. Why don't other /.ers understand this?

If you wanna buy one...

[notb4dinner]

... one of the licensees listed on simputer.org is supposededly making some evaluation versions avaliable soon. See here.

Licensing

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody notice the licensing terms for the thing, http://www.simputer.org/simputer/license/index.php

The real change...

[Cheese Cracker]

... will be when China has ironed out all the bugs with their CPUs and software. Then you can forget
Intel and Microsoft having much sales in Asia and the rest of the developing countries. A guess would
be that a Chinese handheld would go for $50. China has the ambition of taking the lead in the IT
market in Asia and the developing countries... and I bet they will. And then slowly they'll move over
to take market shares in the developed countries... maybe with 'inferior' products, but it will all go the
way the car industry went. Once they get a foothold, they'll make better and better products and finally
pass companies like Intel and Microsoft.

Aaaaand... who cares?

[Bowie J. Poag]

How is this better than a $99 Palm m105?

Indians most misused word

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAII (I am not an Indian from India) but I notice that when talking to my Indian friends, the ones born in India and not the second generation US-ians, they tend to love using the word indigenous, much like the poster of the ./ article has done. E.g. "In India we have indigenously developed our own nuclear technology" or "We have indigenously developed our own supercomputers" etc.

The main problem is the understanding of the word. You'd expect that being indigenous means being wholly developed locally. But far from it. Take the Simputer for example. Most of the components are from technologies outside India. The same with their Param supercomputer (rebadged Suns) and many of the so called "indigenous" technologies. Where do you think the technology for propelling India's missiles/rockets came from? To this end, Indians have proved to be good integrators. Maybe it's the politicians in New Delhi misleading the public or their attempt to provide a feel good factor but I think that it's being...err...disingenuous!

Re:Indians most misused word

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true. In India we use this word to represent "without any external assistance"... Obviously, it is wrong.

culture..huh..:-)

Re:Indians most misused word

[Anonymous Coward]

Much of the basic sciences (Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry) were developed/discovered in different parts of the world.

So going by your definition IBM did not indigenously build the PC. (After all they did not invent the concept of 1s and 0s)

Re:Indians most misused word

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh wait, you mean Indians aren't silicon-based lifeforms who need to develop everything from scratch?

Re:Indians most misused word

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't take it so personally! You obviously miss the point. I am not saying that Indians from India (I am Indian myself but not from India) have not done a marvelous job. Afterall a large propotion of people in silicon valley are of Indian origin. I'm just pointing out the need for Indians from India, and probably Pakistanis as well, to claim something as indigenously made. Where else in the world do you find that?

Take the PARAM 10000 supercomputer for example. From the specs, each compute node is obviously a Sun Enterprise E420R-ish hooked together using Myrinet which has been renamed to PARAMnet. Why the need to claim that it is "indigenous" as it implies something else? Just look up the word in the dictionary and you'll see what I mean.

Read the FAQ

[slainfu]

They've done their homework on us, check out question 11 on the FAQ. :)

Re:Read the FAQ

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is 'us'?
Don't you think there that many of the guys who were involved it the Simputer's development could be slashdotters too?

Re:Average monthly salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course this utterly fatuous remark would have to be modded to +5.
The average monthly salary for the whole country has absolutely nothing to do with this. The point is that the Simputer makes computing available to a *huge* number of people who couldn't afford it before (somewhere around the middle class, that's around 250 million people.) Look at this way - a car costs 15 times as much as a simputer yet the number of cars in the cities is simply exploding.
The real question is whether the Simputer is going to reach its target audience which IRC includes salesmen in rural areas and the like. But that is another matter entirely.

apps problem

[nuckin futs]

if it's running linux, then i guess they can't get software from freshmeat. :P

simputer beowulf?

[dincubus]

well on first pass it does have usb connections so potentially you could use nics of that nature. but the memory seems a tad small for somehow loading all the mpi and pvm needed for a beowulf. it would just be interesting to see if someone would be crazy enough to try that :) but then again i never thought anyone would try to use liquid nitrogen to cool their machine

keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[Meorah]

After all, that's where all your jobs are going... might as well have a few laughs before you find yourself back in college either getting a masters in CS or another BS in Mgmt or Finance.

http://www.bigates.com/html/Pdf's/Benefits%20of%20 the%20company%20you%20keep.pdf

I can't believe how many of you goofs actually think India is some 3rd world country. Just because they have a very large proportion of farmers and field labor who live off their own sweat and blood doesn't mean there aren't a ton of wealthy people, especially in the cities.

In addition, did any of you einsteins think that perhaps they'll be selling this device in Europe (where it was unveiled), Asia, or god-forbid, N. America? Yeah, I'm sure all the poor people in the good ole U S of A will have to take out a 3rd mortgage to get their hands on one of these badboys... what with spending their life savings building beowulf clusters and all...

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[dincubus]

i was definately not making fun of india. the company i used to work for acutally had some outsourcing in india, some were good some were bad.. just like anywhere. as a matter of fact, being back in school now, there are a huge amount of people in the same college i go to who are from india. the South Dakota School of Mines and Tech. is one of the best schools in this area out here for engineering. i regularly call on a friend of mine, from school and from india, for some insight on math homework. so i do realize that india is a good source of some very brilliant people :)

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[Tablizer]

I can't believe how many of you goofs actually think India is some 3rd world country. Just because they have a very large proportion of farmers and field labor who live off their own sweat and blood doesn't mean there aren't a ton of wealthy people, especially in the cities.

India has a whacky economy. Dispite being a democracy and accepting of the idea of wide class differences, it is a business-choking environment. That is why the well-educated keep coming to the US to DDOS our labor markets instead.

If India would get its economic act together, then these labor DDOS's would slow down. (Or if congress would get its act together here and make sure that a citizen must be fairly given the opportunity first, and not just on paper.)

Can somebody from India fill us in on the psychology of the Indian economy and why people vote to allow the gov to choke local business? In the US, even though business is seen as greedy and selfish, most also realize that it is the best source of employment and economic well-being. Most Americans don't trust the gov to run an efficient organization or services. Politics, burocracy (sp?), lack of competition, and no fear of bankruptcy makes gov orgs sluggish and cryptic for economic-related tasks.

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[Rajesh Raman]

It's a kind civilzational scar. The last time they welcomed international participation in the local economy, the East India Company gratefully accepted. We know what happened after that.

Also, the government runs several gigantic industries (Public Sector Units), that have provided scores of jobs. Unfortunately, these PSUs are models of inefficiency --- few of them turn in a profit. However, whenever government officials talk of privatizing them, both politians and common folk raise a storm: the latter because of the jobs and security that these PSUs provide (one can't be fired from them!), and the former because of the resulting vote blocks.

There are many other factors at work:
- Gandhian ideals of self-sufficiency
- Fear of having multi-nationals usurp local industry and overpower Indian "culture"
- Fear of having the rich usurp the wealth of the nation, leading to tough and sometimes unreasonable government regulations on every industry.
- Being a poor country, having to manage an economy of scarcity, leading to rations and licenses for any kind of resource. Unfortunately, this ushered in the "license raj" and widespread corruption.
- Related to the above, the strengthening of unions and labor laws to ridiculous extremes.

India is gradually shedding the above mindsets and regulations. The slow pace of changes is both due to caution on the government's part (remember what perestroika did?), and a lingering mistrust of the rich. But all this has been changing.

It's funny, but Bollywood movies are a good barometer to judge social thought on these issues. Until the nineties, villians were always super-rich ruthless industrialists, and the heroes were always poor laborers living in villages/slums, etc. If you look at the current crop of movies, the heroes are all super-rich guys with multi-billion industries in "London" and "Australia". People are now willing to consider that one can get rich without cheating/raping/pillaging the poor --- a drastic change in social thought!

"Rich" is no longer the same four letter word it used to be. :-)

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[Tablizer]

People are now willing to consider that one can get rich without cheating/raping/pillaging the poor

Well, they probably do. They just tend to create a bit more overall wealth than governments who cheat/rape/pillage.

Gandhian ideals of self-sufficiency

I doubt that is possible in today's world unless everybody wants perm poverty. If you over-protect your imports than no country will agree to buy your exports.

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[Russ Nelson]

Ghandi was a nice guy, but he didn't understand economics any better than the Christ, who has his own set of economic malapropisms.
-russ

Re:keep making fun of India REALITY CHECK

[sita]

Not having read up on Gandhi, but at least visited his Bombay home (he wasn't in...), I tend to believe you're wrong. The British did their best wrecking the Indian economy. Not that it was their goal, but the effect was the same. The British enforced some kind of unidirectional free trade on India. That is India had to import factory produced cotton cloth from Britain, but wasn't given the chance to export "refined" goods to Britain. Needless to say, the cheaper labour in India would have made investments in Indian factories more profitable than in British factories, if they would have been allowed to compete on equal terms.

What Gandhi did was to recognize that all industries start small, and tried to foster cottage industries on the Indian countryside (the spinning wheel in the Indian flag reminds of this). Today, there are literally hundreds of banks involved in micro-financing these types of projects. Because of this, India is much better off than comparable countries (e.g. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, ...).

Gotta hack.

[Penguinoflight]

It uses linux, so you ought to be able to get to a system console somewhere... just need a tremor binary for strongarm.

In other news...

[tuxedo-steve]

Maxis sues India for diluting their valuable trademark.

Sid Meier had only one enigmatic comment to make: "F-U-N-D! *manic laughter*"

Going? They're Already GONE...

[Anonymous Coward]

The next generation of the product I'm working on will be done by Satyam Computer Services...

The lady on the simputer screen

[abhikhurana]

In case u guyz are wondering who is the female on the screen of the simputer
on simputer.org, well her name is Aishawarya
Rai. Beautiful lady indeed. The link also has her phone number but try at ur
own risk. Here are some
nice pictures of her.

Simputer has a YAHOO GROUP !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Join the

• Simputer Yahoo Group

at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simputer/

Price looks pretty good but...

[cottonmouth]

Dell and Viewsonic are coming out with PDA's this in November that will have a 400MHz Intel chip, 64-96MB memory and plenty more features for $200-250. So this would be like taking a step backwards performancewise.

Help Simputer ( Low budget development) !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Talk about low budget development !!! Here is the text from their website :

You can Help
There are several ways by which individuals and organizations can help the Simputer project.

Financial: The Simputer has been unique in that it has been unfettered by any commitments given to any funding agency, simply because there hasn't been any funding agency . The flexibility and academic freedom offered by the Indian Institute of Science, the visionary and bold attitude of the Board of Encore Software Ltd., the time of the seven trustees and creative use of available resources are all factors in bringing the Simputer project to this stage. The entire IPR of the Simputer project has been vested with the Simputer Trust by the two institutions concerned: Encore Software and Indian Institute of Science.
It will certainly be a surprise for most to learn that as of today (May 7th, 2001) the Simputer Trust does not have a bank account! (we are in the process of creating one). Obviously, this state of affairs cannot continue for too long. The Trust plans to raise resources to further the Simputer project by the following means:

• license fees for Simputerised and Simputer manufacturing licenses
• Grants, donations, and gifts from diverse organizations and individuals

Immediate requirements for funding: To take the Simputer to the next step, the Trust needs to build about 100 Simputers and make them available for field trials in areas where the Simputer can have an impact. We estimate that at these very low volumes, the cost per Simputer -- including application development -- to be about US $500. We are now looking towards individuals such as yourself to contribute to the proliferation of Simputers.
If you wish to contribute financially to the Simputer project, please get in touch with us for payment details.
Development: There has been a huge number of mails expressing interest in contributing to the growing Simputer effort. We have setup a mailing list for Simputer Development related efforts.
Join the Simputer Yahoo Group
at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/simputer/

Kaii?

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly a business professional is going to want something more like a Kaii?

It really depends how flexible the Simputer is, in terms of software. I gather it's a modern-tech cross between a high-school Apple II lab, an online library catalog, and the weird scattering of the special-interest 1-800# BBSes the US government used to run (and probably still does).

Of course, for students, families with kids, and so forth, owning your own might be an unfair advantage, but I get the feeling the markets are more different than you'd think. Anyone in India want to comment? Is there less platform chauvinism there than here, or am I right? ...and the most important question- what do they do to the villager who drops it and cracks/gouges the LCD? :)

ogg?

[elohim]

Someone (besides me) should get in touch with them and recommend adding an ogg player alongside the mp3 player!

Smartcard is $2, plus fees for access

[Bubblehead]

Software Development Magazine covers the Simputer in their "Deadline" section (unfortunately, the section is only in the print edition, not online). From the article: "For $2 and a nominal rental fee, each villager can buy a smart card that stores all his or her information, and allows Internet and e-mail access." Sounds quite feasible to me.

Re:Are you a moron ?

[cOdEgUru]

Coz you definitely sounds like one.

According to what you say, everytime a new technology sprouts in a country like India
(1) The Govt should take affirmative action in ensuring that the technology gets queued up so that (a) Govt can better direct their efforts towards distributing the enormous wealth of the rich to the poor (hey, guess what, we could tell Bush to do the same here) (b) Govt can bicker among themselves whether building schools or creating new channels for information is important.

But then you sir, dont give a damn about those people. Neither do you give a damn about what you wrote. For, you just wanted to give your two bit advice and move along. So guess what...move along!

Re:So where can I buy one?

[Syre]

Look here.

Not for general sale yet, but you might convince them to let you have an Evaluation unit...

Point of order

[Kenneth Stephen]

..But look at it from the point of voice recognition. Malayalam and Tamil sound very much alike, and a person with the knowledge of one with absolutely no knowledge of the other can actually understand the other one. ...

I'm afraid thats not quite accurate. My experience has been that while it is somewhat easy for people who speak Malayalam to roughly understand Tamil, the converse for some reason is not true. Perhaps this has more to do with the literacy (and by implication the educational levels) of the people in the states of Kerala and Tamil Nadu, rather than any inherent complexities in the languages themselves. Malayalam, by any objective measure is a more complex language than Tamil (more consonants, and a more complex vocabulary), so one would intuitively tend to expect that lack of equivalence in understanding though.

My experience has been that it is relatively easy for speakers of Kannada, Telegu, and Tamil to figure out roughly what is spoken in the other languages. As a speaker of Malayalm, I can somewhat get the gist of Kannada and Tamil, but not Telegu.

But even with these kinds of similarities, your point is totally false. These similarities are very superficial and do not present enough commonality to help out voice recognition. When communicating through the language barrier, a lot of information is conveyed through context and gestures. And that is of no help in voice recognition.

Re:Posted @05:14AM EDT?

[SirCrashALot]

Isn't that Eastern Daylight Time. As in Daylight savings time?

--Jason

Re:Linux

[Twirlip of the Mists]

In this case, the AC was right. (Amazing.) Linux is a registered trademark. Using it in any way that's not expressly authorized by the trademark owner is trademark dilution, and you could get sued for it. The whole "GNU/Linux" thing really has got to stop. If Linus decides to enforce his trademark-- and I certainly hope he does, because if he doesn't, he could lose it-- then things could get pretty ugly.

terminal

[simpl3x]

i believe that the goal is to provide a cheap (very cheap obviously--$200) computer for the world market of the third type. think computing pre web, but with web access. what did we do before we lost our attention spans to the web? email, programming, word processing, basic graphic creation... now imagine a billion people with computers. i hope you are not a software engineer!

A few technical facts for the ignorant

[Anaplexian]

Hindi, is a pure phonetic language. What you say is exactly what you write. Try thinking how your favourite voicerecog software processes "rendezvous" or "bourgeois" - you'll understand that what you're saying is the exact opposite of the truth.

NIIT, a private IT training company in India set up a roadside PC for streetchildren that had a joystick and a keyboard as input.
These children picked up how to use Paintbrush themselves and tought each other how to write their names using the joystick. Since someof the kids new little english, the PC was a place to use it, and so they learnt more english in the process.

You're literate. So you think IT is only to manage words and text. People at simputer are going beyond that - they're using it to create literacy.

Buy 1 copy of Education and get a lifetime's supply of Ignorance completely FREE!!!

StrongARM Ogg Player

[Grendel Drago]

http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/200202/012 5.html

There already exists an integerized version of the Ogg Vorbis codec that should run just fine on the StrongARM-200MHz. Should work practically out-of-the box, as long as someone makes an interface. Heck, someone could just add an input plugin to the MP3 Player, if it was designed right.

--grendel drago

Texans?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unfortunately, looking at some earlier posts, India and China are far from having a monopoly on illiterate peasants who don't know what goes on in the rest of the world (flamebait)".

I presume you are thinking of a certain family of very inarticulate Texans! (flamebait)!

Yes, GNU = Gaysex Not Unusual

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it does. I can see why Linus would want to keep GNU far away from Linux.

Re:Indians smell

[Anonymous Coward]

You fucking fuck! You are completely deranged you shitheaded asshole. Indian women are way more beautiful than some fucking skanky assed blonde bimbo. Go kill yourself you worthless piece of fuck. When you were born, you came out of your mom's bleeding anus. Why don't' you go back there?

Re:Indians smell

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a dumb indian, right?

Ooh look at me, I like curry.

Re:Indians smell

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, you piece of shit!!!!! Indian's have done way more for the world that stupid ura-pee-ins.

We invented chess for a start.

so fuck off

Re:Posted @05:14AM EDT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe its not a typo.

The definition of "MOST"

[Taco Cowboy]

You sez:

"Secondly, I was objecting to the way people were implying that "most" meant "almost all" ...."

Whoa ! Hold on for just a second.

Let's go back a little bit, shall we ?

Now, please tell me what's the meaning of the word "MOST".

Does it mean "More than 50%", or as you wanna put it "a sizeable portion" ?

I used the word "MOST" in my original message and I mean just that, MOST - More Than 50% - and nothing else.

Never had I meant it to be "almost all", no sirreeee.

Re:Linux

[dbm1175]

Wouldn't the proper label be "the GNU Operating System using the Linux (TM) kernel"?