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All reasonable people do. The vast majority of scientists and scientific organizations support the theory that humans are doing irreversible damage to the climate through the uncontrolled release of greenhouse gases, primarily carbon dioxide.

Well that's a considerable broader position that I can completely agree with, but it's not excessively off the mark, and not really anything I was disputing.

You seem to think there is some grand global conspiracy between unrelated groups of scientists world-wide.

Oh here's your straw man again. This whole fucking "groups of scientists" bullshit over again. There's no "scientists" (unless your definition is WAY off from any accepted definition) claiming to have all the answers to the warming and increasing CO2. Why would I even respond to this kind of crap. These guys aren't scientists, they are politicians and looters posing as diplomats. They are the elite monied interests disseminating the perils scientists warn about, and using it to promote their own controlling agenda as the only solution, with the actual benefits to the environment (and the vast majority of mankind) only used as rhetoric to support their ideas.

Don't try and weasel out it. Please explain how these "experts" get the entire scientific community to go along with this nefarious plan for world domination?

Oh like your own ideologies don't have any impact on the institutional directions you will support... right. And nobody is focused on some significantly important specialization of research without having total understading of how the authorities many layers up might eventually (mis)use their work? Huh? Is that your contention? That everybody has the big picture of everything and nobody's work can could be used for nefarious purposes without full disclosure? Do you understand how large and insidious the plans and processes are laid out and how the debate over science is just scratching the surface (as well as a useful distraction)?

I suggest you do a little research. You are obviously grossly uninformed. Here's a short primer:

Donna Holt, Virginia

ICLEI

What ICLEI does

So is population control not one of the direct solutions to global warming/overpopulation? If you really believe that global warming is going to kill us all, how can bikes solve the problem? The argument that this is a potential gateway program makes perfect sense, but I don't know what it is a gateway program into. Maybe a carbon tax/credit scheme. Maybe light rail. Maybe free balloons for everyone. I don't know. If someone has time to research ICLEI http://www.iclei.org/index.php?id=iclei-home then please let me know. Until then I'll remain ignorant, yet still know that bicycles aren't the end point of this organization's movement for change. Still I'm sure whatever the end goal is it's "For the common good." (TM).

• "SUV's should be ILLEGAL!" (what about people who haul heavy/large loads, i.e. construction workers?)
  No, but SUVs should not be subsidized via tax breaks.
• "Well, then people should have to prove they need them then!"
  SUV drivers shouldn't need to prove anything to anyone. They should just pay for everything themselves instead of being subsidized by the taxpayers' earnings.
• "Nobody should be allowed on the freeway without at least two people in the car!"
  The freeway should be paid for only by people who use the freeway.
• "Nobody should be allowed to drive more than 15 miles to work!"
  Nobody should have any say about how you get to work.
• "Public transit!" (This is Los Angeles. Public transit is already inadequate to meet the meager current need)
  While public transit is inadequate in most U.S. cities, it is merely a chicken-and-egg problem largely caused by car subsidies.
• "Tax gasoline a couple more bucks a gallon to pay for more buses!"
  Stop taxing people not using the gasoline for it.

• Uncovering hidden car subsidies in municipalities

Umm, I think you are attacking some unrelated generalization you've heard in the past, not the actual poster's comment. He made no statement about hydrogen or solving fossil fuel dependancy.

But, since you are on that topic, there are a number of avenues besides fossil fuel for generating the electricity or heat or whatever for creating hydrogen:

Bacteria. Some scientist at UCLA did some calculations, and determined that a decent sized canyon in the Mojave desert covered 2 feet of water and a sheet to collect the hydrogen produced by the bacteria would be enough for all of Southern California.

Geothermal

Photovoltaics

Tidal

Convection

Fission

Fusion

Biomass Fuels

Solar Thermal

Wind

Hydroelectric

So, who are you swinging your fists at? Certainly not the original poster?

LS

Umm, I think you are attacking some unrelated generalization you've heard in the past, not the actual poster's comment. He made no statement about hydrogen or solving fossil fuel dependancy.

But, since you are on that topic, there are a number of avenues besides fossil fuel for generating the electricity or heat or whatever for creating hydrogen:

Bacteria. Some scientist at UCLA did some calculations, and determined that a decent sized canyon in the Mojave desert covered 2 feet of water and a sheet to collect the hydrogen produced by the bacteria would be enough for all of Southern California.

Geothermal

Photovoltaics

Tidal

Convection

Fission

Fusion

Biomass Fuels

Solar Thermal

Wind

Hydroelectric

So, who are you swinging your fists at? Certainly not the original poster?

LS

Wikipedia has a solid list of the containment types. This helps illustrate way it's just so hard to keep the reaction going.

"The most advanced test reactors, the Tokomak Fusion Test Reactor (TFTR) in the U.S. and the Joint European Torus (JET), use the tokomak design and have come close to break even conditions. In fact, in November, 1991, the British-based Tokomak reported break even conditions. This occurs when the energy given off by the fusion reaction is equal to the energy input required to sustain the reaction. In order for a fusion reaction to generate useful amounts of electricity, the energy given off must be many times greater than that required to sustain the reaction. Even the most optimistic researchers feel that it will be well into the next century before this stage is reached." (from This site)

Energy facts shows more info.

According to this site:
"Currently, although the technology required to harness tidal energy is well established, tidal power is expensive, and there is only one major tidal generating station in operation. This is a 240 megawatt (1 megawatt = 1 MW = 1 million watts) at the mouth of the La Rance river estuary on the northern coast of France (a large coal or nuclear power plant generates about 1,000 MW of electricity). The La Rance generating station has been in operation since 1966 and has been a very reliable source of electricity for France. La Rance was supposed to be one of many tidal power plants in France, until their nuclear program was greatly expanded in the late 1960's. Elsewhere there is a 20 MW experimental facility at Annapolis Royal in Nova Scotia, and a 0.4 MW tidal power plant near Murmansk in Russia. "

I also recall having seen articles talking about attempts in Norway to capture wave/tidal energy for electricity generation.

I'm always a fan of renewable energy. I just wanted to point out that this is more an attempt to do something in a new way than to do something new.

And that's not the only natural-born superhero.

That AngleGrinder Man is an ass. The automobile is a menace. It pollutes. Causes sprawl. Is both personally and publicly VERY VERY expensive. Dangerous. Smelly. And encourages poor health.

London has every Right to want to make selfish auto-drivers play by the rules. The Auto is NOT the be-all-end-all public-policy device that needs satisfying.

Because I advocate sustainability, I ride my bike. I am damn tired of my Municipal, Provincial and Federal Taxes being spent to bandage up crash victims, insure the public against this menace, watch the best agricultural land get run over by big-box consumer-depots, animals and plants get paved under, water bespoiled, and on and on all because some asshat thinks its his right to scream 100 km/h through my residential neighbourhood and park on the sidewalk.

If there is any hope, the public is going to have to adjust its perspective/tolerance of the Auto and its destructive culture.

If fucking tired of it, and this AngleGrinder Man is an ignorant fucking tool... By the way. I work for one of the Big Three NorthAmerican AutoCo's.

Manufacturing some types of PV cells, particularly gallium arsenide cells, may involve the production of some potentially toxic substances. These substances are generated in a centralized facility, and proper control of the manufacturing process, and proper disposal of any toxic wastes, should reduce the risks of any environmental contamination. Disposal of PV cells after their useful life is finished, generally 30 years, could present some waste disposal problems, but most of the toxic materials in any cells can probably be recycled.

However, during module production substances are used which may be harmful for workers, the public or the environment.

Some readers might not know that there is a successfully working tidal power facility in the Bay of Saint-Michel in France since 1966. Its output is 240MW.

I found some pictures on the web.

I don't doubt that you've lived places that grow their own food and transport it by "electrified train" -- but you say your electricity comes from coal! Do you have any idea how the coal gets to the power plant? I'll give you a hint: it doesn't walk...
Now as to your statement that most of the population of the world is not dependent on gasoline -- you're actually quite wrong. Nigeria, Russia, Saudi Arabia , and Germany (look towards the middle of the page under industry) all have petroleum or petroleum refining as one of their major industries. I'm sure there are many more -- these are just the ones I came up with links for in about five minutes of googling. I listed some smaller countries to show that just about everyone is dependant to some extent -- obviously the entire middle eastern region, as well as many south american countries and other African countries would be included as well.
In fact, According to Stuard Baird, M.Eng.,M.A., writing for the Energy Educators of Ontario in 1993:

"At the present time, oil provides the energy for over 95% of the world's transportation needs."

I find your lack of knowledge about the world you live in disturbing!

how do you think we get nuclear power?

I think the above post is slightly misleading. If you release methane, it is a very harmful greenhouse gas. However, if you burn it, its not too bad. References below:

http://www.naturalgas.org/ENVIRON2.HTM
http://www.iclei.org/efacts/natgas.htm

Also you can actually harvest naturally occurring methane to power things:
http://www.att.com/press/0692/920625.cha.html

You're right in one instance. The Bay of Fundy plant produces 18-20 megawatts, not gigawatts, my mistake. But the figure on worldwide tidal power is correct, 3000 gigawatts. However, after various constraints and physical mumbo jumbo, only 60 gigawatts can actually be used for something useful.

Some interesting links I found while checking my figures:

http://www.iclei.org/efacts/tidal.htm
http://www.valleyweb.com/fundytides/ It's been a while I guess since I've read the propaganda. We used to get this stuff all the time in school. I went to Annapolis Royal a few times, too, and it's all they can talk about.

J

No, not laundry detergent. That's not funny.

But you *need* to leave your keyboard every few days or so and what would be more wonderful than being able to spend those few off-line sleeping hours dreaming of you and that smart chick riding around on your bike...

You've got your own smell alright - what you need now is simultaneous inhalation of both the chick-smell and some bike grease. Now to the multi-tasking part, and do not crash out until ready:

#1) First, do a thorough Kevin Kline-style masculine armpit-sniffing to establish your own existence the old low-tech way.

#2) Head over to some classic motorcycle site to smell the CO2 and leaked motor oil. If you've ever been riding in India you'll be also rewarded with the smell of sheer fear that comes with that territory.

#3) Now, for the hard-to-find smart chick smell (close your eyes and soon enough such rare bird will be sitting right behind you) open another screen from this link for that elusive pink elephant scent and you're on your way to a gonzo-geek heaven.

If, for some reason, you'll end up with the smell of a Dodo bird in an oil slick you've simply got to work harder on your mental associations.