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Just stick one of these in a box with an LED. if the LED is on, it's doomsday.

http://www.maxwell.com/product...

"Maxwell’s radiation-hardened, hybrid, Nuclear Event Detectors (NED) sense ionizing radiation pulses generated by a nuclear event, such as the detonation of a nuclear weapon, and rapidly switches its output from the normal high state to a low state with a propagation delay time of less than 20ns."

You can design your power supplies to withstand a nuclear event using a NED http://www.maxwell.com/product... and when the pulse is over, your stuff just boots and it's business as usual. At least that's my understanding.

I'm afraid your information about ultracapacitors is not up to date, here's a 125 volt ultracapacitor

They don't have the capacity of lithium batteries, but they have very high charge/discharge rates and low internal resistance. This combined with a lithium battery will allow regenerative breaking to buffer big chunk of energy before slowly charging the battery with it, and it can provide a nice boost during acceleration to help reduce the load on the battery.

For instance, if you take a few BMOD0063 P125 B04/B08s each rated at 63F, 125V and maximum discharge current of 1,800A (energy capacity of (0.5 * [63 * farad]) * (125 * [volt^2]) ? joule = 3937.5 J) and discharged it into a 2000uH air core inductor ((0.5 * [2000 * {micro*henry}]) * ([1800 * ampere]^2) ? joule = 3240 J) might you not get the equivalent of a small car crash discharged at millions of volts by timing the switchout of the capacitor bank correctly?

These Maxwell ultracapacitors packaged as "transportation modules". 63 farads at 125 volts per unit. Max continuous current for an ordinary braking-type operation, 240A. So each such unit could absorb 30KW. The current generation of NYC subway car has a maximum current drain of 313KW per car. So nine such units per car, at 65Kg each, could accelerate a subway car. Stored energy is only 1.3KWh, but that's just about right for accelerating or decelerating a subway car once.

Maxwell has been making slow and steady progress for a while; out on a limb types have been hoping EEStor will finally produce something -- anything -- but that looks like they were either naive about the challenges they were facing, or outright deceptive about it. There are quite a few technologies in the lab, a quick search on Google turns up all manner of intriguing information.

Electric cars are built in vain, most electricity comes from coal power, require oil powered vehicles to mine the copper, lithium and other chemicals which once disposed of are more toxic to the environment than the exhaust from the latest combustion engines.

If everyone were using electric cars then you could improve the efficiency and reduce environmental impact of all cars in an area by increasing the efficiency and reducing the environmental impact of just the power plants in the area. This is much easier and faster to do than retrofitting all cars in the area with more efficient environmentally friendly engines.

With combustion powered cars you can not immediately improve all car's environmental impact at once, with electric cars we can. The initial migration to electric cars must happen in order to better manage our environmental impact.

As for your "they'll be powered by dirty coal plants anyway" argument: Green power can provide 100% of this planet's power. We are currently harnessing very little in comparison to the amount of clean power available. However, much like electric car adoption the transition to clean power will be a slow process.

As for your "lithium and other battery chemicals are bad for the environment" argument: Ultracapacitors are made of ceramic (clay) and aluminum, and are therefore recyclable. Ultra-capacitors also charge much faster than comparable electro chemical storage systems. This new tech in new and will take a while to get here. I believe a Canadian company is working on an ultracapacitor powered car. Meanwhile, we'll just have to use the tried and tested battery tech we currently have.

In short: We have to start somewhere; The electric car is not a worthless endeavor it is an important next step towards energy independence and clean power.

It's a volume/weight/expense thing. At a stationary installation the first two do not matter.

You could have a bank of these but a flywheel or flow battery would likely be cheaper at this moment in time.

People should really read the FAQ and the numbers.

To sum up: it's significantly more expensive, but since glass doesn't wear like asphalt does (it either works or breaks -- and it doesn't generally break from compressive stress, only torsional stress and impact), it should last longer and need less maintenance. And since you also get power out of it, displace plow crews, etc, they make the argument that it'll be a better investment if they can make the panels for $10k or less each.

Given that the one-off prototype is to cost $100k, and they have the potential for a *huge* amount of mass production, I don't think it's all that unrealistic. I'd still like to see how they handle in the real world, of course, but hey, that's why you give funding to build prototypes. ;)

Oh... yes! The numbers! I love the wishful naive thinking on that page, it's just brilliant.

For example, lets examine one of the pieces of insanity on his site. He mentions embedding supercapacitors into the road surface to store energy (I assume overnight). If you don't know what those things are, they would be the filthy expensive, highly experimental, rarely used in commercial products devices with lower than battery storage capacity. I'm sure they'll improve, but I can come up with fancy plans too if I can have parts made of unobtanium.

I particularly like the plan to use the ultracaps to store sufficient power to melt ice off the roads. The inventor clearly doesn't remember his 1st year Physics, where we learnt that the the enthalpy of fusion of water is surprisingly high compared to most other chemicals.

Ok, lets get practical: I'm basing this off the technical specs (PDF) for one of the beefier ultracapacitors made by one of the top companies in the biz - Maxwell Technologies. (note: I'm sure better devices are available from somewhere else, will be soon, etc.. bear with me)

It states that a device that is about 17.6cm high and has an area of 18.9cm x 51.5cm has a total capacity of 55Wh (~200kJ). That's a big capacitor.

So if you made a road surface with it, every 973.35 cm^2 area would have 200kJ of stored power for it. That's about 200J per cm^2.

Since the enthalpy of fusion of water 333 J/g, then 200J of energy will melt 0.6g of water. A layer of water (or ice) 0.6g/cm^2 is 6mm deep.

To summarize, this guy's fancy 'invention', if 100% efficient could melt 6mm of ice (or something like 5cm of snow), assuming that the weak winter sunlight was sufficient to fully charge the capacitors during the previous day. That's assuming the entire road surface has a layer of supercapacitors in it 17.6cm thick (that's 7 inches for you yanks).

Even if you gave the benefit of doubt and assumed a 10x improvement in supercapacitor technology, you still have to factor in that he plans to use the solar power capacity for other things too, like lighting up the LED arrays built-in to the road, and to power nearby homes. Not to mention that no matter how much capacity you have, there's not enough sunlight to charge it.

Note that the cost estimates conveniently left out the cost of the ultracaps. On one of the pages, he mentions a target price of USD48 per square foot. The Maxwell ultracap is about 1 square foot, so we're looking at $48 split between a square foot of: Solar cells, the glass coating, an ultrapacitor 7 inches thick, high intensity LEDs, heating coils, power management electronics, the road substrate, and more.

Who was the moron who gave him $100K? Can I have my free money now too? I can come up with all sorts of wild plans also that make zero fiscal sense!

In the situation you mention, I would wonder why more of these devices were not in use: http://www.maxwell.com/pdf/me/product_datasheets/ned/HSN3000_Rev3.pdf

I would also wonder why digital devices that were already powered off without the device mentioned above were suddenly useless. In any case, enough with your "It's still the Cold War/New Endless War and the Commies/Socialists/Fascists/Islamofascists are after me specifically." survivalist mental masturbation.

Batteries wont work in the long run. They:
-get old and lose capacity
-are slow to charge


We need better ultracaps. For example this
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large-cell/bcap3000.asp
has approximately same capacity as a standard AA battery (3 watt-hours) and can output(be charged at) sustained 7.5 KW until its empty. Thats almost 3000 Amps at 2.7 Volts.

Lets look at something bigger:
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0063-125v.asp

125V, 60KG
sustained current 150A
peak 1 second 750A

My broken math tells me its equivalent to ten 12V ~2Ah batteries.


Tesla's pack is 450KG 56kWh, 225kW for the engine (600 amps at 375V), needs 4 hours to charge. Lets assume 9 bmod0063-125v modules.
540KG, 375V, 450A, 2250A peak. 168KW. ~2.2kWh.

We need breakthrough that will bump ultracaps capacity ten-twenty fold. That would bring us to current Li-Ion levels, but with charge times measured in seconds.

Batteries wont work in the long run. They:
-get old and lose capacity
-are slow to charge


We need better ultracaps. For example this
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large-cell/bcap3000.asp
has approximately same capacity as a standard AA battery (3 watt-hours) and can output(be charged at) sustained 7.5 KW until its empty. Thats almost 3000 Amps at 2.7 Volts.

Lets look at something bigger:
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0063-125v.asp

125V, 60KG
sustained current 150A
peak 1 second 750A

My broken math tells me its equivalent to ten 12V ~2Ah batteries.


Tesla's pack is 450KG 56kWh, 225kW for the engine (600 amps at 375V), needs 4 hours to charge. Lets assume 9 bmod0063-125v modules.
540KG, 375V, 450A, 2250A peak. 168KW. ~2.2kWh.

We need breakthrough that will bump ultracaps capacity ten-twenty fold. That would bring us to current Li-Ion levels, but with charge times measured in seconds.

You don't have to wait for EEStor. You can buy ultracaps right now.

Meh, he could have done better. There should be four separate boxes, two separate mirrored disk arrays running in RAID6. So with sixteen drives in each box there would be 32 SATA drives total. Each case of drives would also need two of its own 3ware SAS 8-port cards connected to the main server and the hot spare server by external x16 PCIe cables. The hot spare server would be connected to the non-transparent port on the PCIe switches on the drive cases. The non-transparent port allows a backup PCIe root complex to take over in the event of a failure of a primary PCIe root complex. Add a few UPS units that always run the load off the battery and use the wall AC current to charge the batteries. In this case, you would probably be ready for just about anything. However, just to be safe, you could have a motherboard custom designed with one of these:
http://www.maxwell.com/pdf/me/product_datasheets/ned/HSN3000_Rev3.pdf

Similar tech is already here from Maxwell Technologies the only fundamental difference being that the Maxwell ultracaps have an energy capacity that is less than that of modern batteries and an order of magnitude below this tech. But they are shipping which does bode well for this.

Not sure what you consider to be "high" internal resistance, but one supercap example has a rated internal resistance of 0.29 mOhm. On the model I worked with (since discontinued) the rated current was about 4000 A. Not sure if that was just the rated voltage divided by the internal resistance, or if it was something lower to take heating into account.

According to
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large-cell/bcap3000.asp
a commercial supercap is roughly 5.5 WH/Kg. So, sufficient Supercap to power this flashlight at your calculated 270 Lumen output is going to weigh roughly a kilogram, and take roughly a liter of volume.

That's a really big flashlight.

One might also like their servers powered down when the active low signals NED and NEF fall to 0V from 20V on this device: http://www.maxwell.com/pdf/me/product_datasheets/ned/HSN3000_Rev3.pdf

Powering up the server can be done once NED rises back to 20V.

This company sells ultracap modules in 5, 15, 16.2, 48.6, and 75 volts.

This company sells ultracap modules in 5, 15, 16.2, 48.6, and 75 volts.

This company sells ultracap modules in 5, 15, 16.2, 48.6, and 75 volts.

I know that Maxwell Technologies says their ultracapacitors are free of the really nasty stuff like cadmium, mercury, and hexavalent chromium. They sell some products containing lead (don't know which, or even if it's the capacitors), but claim to be working to eliminate that as well.

On top of that, you've got the increased lifetime of an ultracapacitor over batteries. NiCd and Lithium batteries drop to 80% capacity after a few hundred to a thousand cycles. Maxwell, for one, is claiming one million cycles to 80%.

(I have no connection to Maxwell, they just have a web site and seem to actually be shipping product)

1. They have limited charge/discharge cycles to begin with
2. Quick-charging batteries (e.g., at a rate faster than C/10) dramatically shortens the lifespan of the cells, regardless of whether they claim they're designed for quick-charging
3. Rapidly discharging the cells (as in high discharge-rate applications like a screwgun) also causes heating, which shortens the lifespan
4. Commencing a recharge cycle before the depleted cells have had a chance to cool after a high-rate discharge cycle is also very hard on them, further shortening their lifespan

That's because you've never driven more than 300 miles and never given any thought to it. 300 miles is at least 4 hours, non-stop. The vast majority of humans need to stop at that often anyhow, and 30 minutes is about the right length of time.

Currently, I drive it every week. Glasgow Montana to Billings Montana. Look it up. Just under 300 miles. My lady has breast cancer and her radiation treatment is at the Billings oncology center. So I know a little bit about driving 300 miles. In addition, I drive to the east coast twice a year, and the west coast once, unless there are family emergencies, in which case, more than once. Mostly, I just drive. I certainly don't hang around for half an hour here or there, and especially would not want to in a gas station or truck stop. I like to drive. I get out of (or sometimes off of, sometimes I go on my motorcycle) the vehicle (we have six) about once an hour, stretch, and get back in or on. Takes about a minute; very restorative and ensures I don't get fatigued. I also reposition the seat, and/or myself, a fair bit. I'm a martial arts instructor; I'm very aware of what my body tells me. So let's just get past this whole "you don't drive" nonsense your fevered, capacitor-fearing imagination cobbled up for you.

I'm getting very tired of hearing you bullshit your way through this...

Really? I look forward to my education, then. Let's see what you have to say, Mr. Scienceguydudeman.

Torque is the important measurement here, not HP. Not to mention that quoting engine HP very unfairly biases the comparison to begin with.

HP converts linearly to watts, I knew the conversion off the top of my head. Sorry if it upset you. Further. However: Go look at the Tesla torque and HP curves. They're common to the electric motors, nothing to do with the differences between batteries or ultracaps. They kick the butt of any IC engine. Fact. Go look. Or don't and continue being wrong, I'm not too concerned about it, actually. It seems to be your SOP.

Your blanket assertion that batteries can't charge fast enough to absorb the energy generated by regenerative braking is absurd.

Apparently not. Otherwise, it'd be kind of funny that one of the key uses for ultracaps is to deal with regenerative braking issues, eh? But hey, don't let the facts slow you down.

The hypothetical service station can't reasonably exist, now or in the foreseeable future. At a minimum, there would need to be a nuclear power plant very nearby, with massive power lines feeding ultra-massive banks of super capacitors on-site.

Yes, of course you'd need ultracaps on site, and yes, you'd need high energy feeds. Why you think this is impossible or unreasonable, I have no idea. You ever look around you? Do you have *any* idea what levels of power are being delivered in those big towers you see? Are you under the impression that building more would be impossible? Or that building power plants is impossible? Do you live in a cave? Or are you just an angry corn farmer?

They take a very long time to charge in homes, because they are limited to 20-30amps. They charge much faster from commercial chargers, which are designed to be wired to much more powerful lines

Hoo boy. Look. A single residential circuit is 20 amps. Normally. You can have more if you like. But, this is at 120 VAC, more or less. About ten times the voltage a car battery needs. 120x20=2400 watts. So, you feed this to a handy-dandy step-down transformer, and 120 VAC turns into 12 VAC, and 20 amps can be turned into 200 amps, just given a big enough transformer to handle the current. Still, 12x200=2400 watts. No, really, stop screaming and look it up. I'll wait. Back yet

Nope. You'll need a revolution in storage capacity of ultracaps just to get even with current batteries.

And the wisdom is - never count on a revolution in particular technology.

In electronics in general, that's not wisdom, that's blindness. Ultracaps have been increasing in capacity steadily, with leaps here and there as new technologies show up, such as the use of nano-materials. Ten years ago, large 15 volt capacitors were in microfarads. Five years ago, I got to drop a one farad cap into my car audio system. Today, one glance at the net finds 30 farad caps; here's a 58-farad, 15 volt cap that represents a considerable improvement over past years. There's plenty of progress and research going on here, and there is no reason to assume that it is anywhere near the potential limits. 3000 farad units are available now at lower (2.7v) voltages already; it's just a matter of time before the voltages come up further and the farad values increase further.

Don't get me wrong, revolutions happen all the time. It just you never know where to expect them.

This isn't revolution. It is evolution. Slow and steady. The slow makes it frustrating; the steady makes it all but inevitable.

Nope. You'll need a revolution in storage capacity of ultracaps just to get even with current batteries.

And the wisdom is - never count on a revolution in particular technology.

In electronics in general, that's not wisdom, that's blindness. Ultracaps have been increasing in capacity steadily, with leaps here and there as new technologies show up, such as the use of nano-materials. Ten years ago, large 15 volt capacitors were in microfarads. Five years ago, I got to drop a one farad cap into my car audio system. Today, one glance at the net finds 30 farad caps; here's a 58-farad, 15 volt cap that represents a considerable improvement over past years. There's plenty of progress and research going on here, and there is no reason to assume that it is anywhere near the potential limits. 3000 farad units are available now at lower (2.7v) voltages already; it's just a matter of time before the voltages come up further and the farad values increase further.

Don't get me wrong, revolutions happen all the time. It just you never know where to expect them.

This isn't revolution. It is evolution. Slow and steady. The slow makes it frustrating; the steady makes it all but inevitable.

...but 282Wh in this profile represents "getting there" to me:

http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/mo dules/bmod0018-390v.asp

I pointed to the research that indicated the capabilities I quoted. It will, as always, take some time for research like that to reach consumer's hands. Examples of current UCs available to consumers can be found here. These, however, are not the same technology as the nano-materials based ones, and represent only the beginning of the useful parts in terms of UCs in general. Don't attempt to put words into my mouth that I didn't say myself; I started the thread with probably, and that's what I meant, and what I was talking about, all along. We will all have to wait.

Battery technology will experience a sort of Moore's Law with the demand for hybrid and all-electric vehicles. This is just one of the first stories.

Probably not. Ultra-capacitors will be hugely superior to batteries; more charge / recharge cycles by orders of magnitude, much higher current capabilities on both charge and discharge, environmentally friendly. They're just a little bit below total battery energy levels on a by weight / volume comparison right now. If and when they cross that line, batteries will become old-tech for applications like cars.

The energy density in W*h/kg for the best ultracapacitors is about 10 times lower than for a battery. Which in turn was crappy enough to make gasoline remain the better option. Among other things, because these are very low voltage devices. They may come in 2600 Farrad versions, but they also top at 2.7 volt. (Both values taken straight off Maxwell Technologies site, for their biggest ultracapacitor.) So the stored charge is, basically, crap.

So basically take all the hideous weight/Watt-hour problems of an electrical car and multiply them by 10. By now you're spending most of the energy into just moving the batteries/capacitors around. Basically think driving a pickup truck full of batteries/capacitors, just to haul yourself to work and back. Whee.

So basically I smell yet another fraudster hyping something they can't possibly deliver. But it sounds high-tech, revolutionary, etc, and some idiot will give them tens of millions VC to pretend they're working on it.

Correct http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/index.html

In fact, there have been a few news articles about the application of their capacitors.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/200503 10-9999-1b10maxwell.html

And as recently as yesterday
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060608/n ews_1b8maxwell.html

The high school kids have a website and picture/video gallery. The kids didn't build the car from scratch; it is a kit car based on a Honda Accord chassis. It uses a 1.9L VW TDi (Turbo Direct Injection) diesel (200hp) engine as its main power source driving the rear wheels, and has a 200hp electric motor attached to the front wheels. The electric motor is driven by a bank of ultracapacitors, so it has excellent power for short bursts of acceleration, but when not accelerating the vehicle is powered solely by the turbocharged diesel, so the mileage figure is the same as what you would get if it was not a hybrid (actually it would probably be better, especially since it doesn't do regenerative braking AFAIK).

An Attack racing kit costs about $20,000 (plus shipping, tax, import fees) plus you need a 1990-93 Accord. The resulting car is not street legal, and certainly not very comfortable. You can buy them preassembled, much more comfortable, and street legal for Europe for $70,000 but they're not hybrids and not stripped-down racing kits so likely heavier. Not sure how much the turbo diesel, electric motor, and ultracapacitors cost.

Ultracapacitors are very cool technology; IMHO they are likely to come out of the wings, completely replace batteries in almost all applications, and finally produce a viable traditional fully electric car long before fuel cells are ready. Ultracapacitors are already on a Moore's-law-like curve, and nanotech seems poised to help them jump ahead even faster. Ultracapacitors are ideal for car powerplant duty: they can discharge any amount of energy up to their total stored at a moment's notice; they can recharge *just as fast* as they discharge, and they do not degrade in performance with use. They are immune to shock and temperature extremes. There are no chemical reactions involved, so little excess heat and no dangerous gases are generated under any load and there is little danger of chemical leaks.

Ultracapacitors have only recently become practical for applications like this, which is perhaps why we haven't seen any developments quite like this yet from the lumbering car industry. But I would expect to start seeing ultracapacitor-boosted hybrids fairly soon, and I would also expect completely ultracapacitor-powered cars, with no other onboard power plant, in 10-20 years.

The only problem with these is if you're charging a battery that can run a (say) 30-kW engine for two hours, that's 216 MJ of energy you're putting into the batteries (more, because of losses, but whatever). Say you want to charge the thing, for convenience, in two minutes. That's 1.8 MW power draw to charge the battery (again, neglecting losses). On a (say) 240V RMS home circuit, that's a 7500 amp current draw! Yikes, that's one thick wire to charge your car...

Actually a cheaper solution (than batteries) for a startup current is to use something called an "ultra capacitor". They charge up faster, last longer, and can provide very high currents for short durations.

Here is one manufacturer's ultra capacitor FAQ: Maxwell Technologies FAQ

Before I forget, you can buy small quantities of ultracapacitors directly from Maxwell for US$25/each. Discounts kick in for quantities of 100 or more. Just fill out their form if you're interested. I've been playing around with a few as battery replacements in toys around the house. :-)

Here is an interesting related interview. Also check out the specs for these ultracapacitors. The key benefit of capacitors over batteries is in deep discharge, near instantaneous bursts of current. It takes the load off your bulk storage supply, allowing them to operate more efficiently.

I still can't buy a hybrid flexible fuel vehicle, so I can shift my usage over to a more renewable source. This system opens up some options though. I like!

Aside: The regenerative braking aspect of all hybrids is a hidden bonus for the wear on the mechanical systems too. I've had my hybrid for almost two years now and the brake pads aren't anywhere near their first 10% worn-down state.

First, let's look at the Maxwell BCAP0010 Ultracapacitor. 2600F, 2.5V, 525g, 60mm diameter cylinder, 172mm length. Incidentally, of these can deliver 600A for 5 seconds, if you need that much power all at once. These aren't like those high-resistance supercapacitors used to keep computer clocks alive with a trickle. Ultracapacitors can deliver serious current. Six of these can start an auto engine.

This is about 5000 farads per kilogram, at 2.5V. E = C*V*V*0.5, which is 15625 joules.

Average power for a capacitor is P = C*V*V*0.5/T, so if we need 12 gigawatts for 10 minutes, we get 12,000,000,000=C*2.5*2.5*0.5/600, or C=2.304 terafarads. That's two billion capacitors. You can get about 30 of those in a 4U enclosure (Siemens sells an ultracapacitor bank in that form), maybe 300 in a rack, so this needs 700,000 racks of capacitors.

This isn't going to be a low-cost approach. Sure, it's modular, but you need a lot of modules.

Look again. 2.5V, 3906 W/kg, 20A rated.

And look at this one, 2,600 Farads, 2.5V, 600A rated (not a D cell package though).

Look again. 2.5V, 3906 W/kg, 20A rated.

And look at this one, 2,600 Farads, 2.5V, 600A rated (not a D cell package though).

Fuel cells, maybe. Ultracapacitors, maybe. Batteries are probably within a factor of two of their ultimate limits.

Hmm, they may have some competition on the speedy recharge front, Moore improvements yet?

350 F, 2.5 V UltraCapacitors in D cell size from Maxwell Technologies.

http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/ According to the above page, ultracapacitors "deliver up to 10 times the power, last up to 10 times as long, operate more reliably in high- and low-temperature conditions, require far less maintenance and reduce environmental issues associated with battery disposal" compared to batteries. I recently read about a hybrid automobile that will be using ultracaps (don't remember who). It seems like these could be implemented in laptops and cell phones.

If you take Maxwell Products BCAP0010A03 as a sample of what can be done. It's a 2600 FARAD, 2.5 volt capacitor. You could array this in a 55 parallel by 5 series bank of 275 caps, yielding a capacitance of 28,600 farads at 12.5 volts (14 volts peak), the maximum current (within commercial ratings) would be 33,000 amps, which would deliver 412,500 watts. Optimizing the capacitors for discharge rate should be fairly simple for someone with a military budget. But even this simple calculation shows a way to store 2x10^6 watt seconds in less than 144kg using known technology. This is the equivalent power to running a conventional microwave oven for over an hour!

--Mike--

But those little camera caps are chicken feed. Try on a 2700 Farad Capacitor on for size!