Slashdot Mirror
Electric Armor
Ch_Omega and others wrote in about a new type of reactive armor in development. As far as I can tell, what they're talking about is essentially large capacitors on the outside of the vehicle, charged up by the vehicle's electrical system. Anti-tank warheads use a shaped charge to create a jet of molten copper that pierces armor, but in this case, when the jet bridges the capacitor plates, it immediately becomes a conductor for X coulombs of current, which effectively vaporizes and disrupts it enough that it won't pierce the vehicle's armor. (Conventional reactive armor does the same thing with explosives.) Interesting idea, if it works.
Woe betide the poor hapless private who loses his balance and leans on the tank to steady himself. Shazam!
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Wouldn't it be cheaper to have the tank scuff its feet on the carpet?
Coulomb is an unit of charge. [Q]
Current is measured in Amperes in the international system. [A], so X amperes will pass through a conductor, not Coulombs.
Curious to know what happens to that armoured vehicle when it rains...
Sigh! I have run out of jokes about repeat stories... Maby someone else can do better.
Lets make this tread a collection of your favourite repeat stories puns and taunts!
This type of technology is just the first step in "shields" technology like you see on Star Trek. Pretty cool...
It seems that plates that can sustain such a large charge/current on the outside of a vehicle might interfere with radio transmissions. I realize that antennae could address this problem, but then the antennae would become a fairly obvious target. Is this a good assumption?
More star trek technology...
My sword of water beats your armour of electricity.
From reports on the BBC (TV not site) this is a very effective armour, and the power is provided by the tank itself, using its usual power supply. This techinology was developed solely in the UK, with the US army being very interested in it.
Apparently a single tank can withstand multiple (10 or more) hits from a RPG when this system is in use, which hopefully will cut down on the threat!
You seem to be a very knowledgable person. Perhaps you can help me.
I read the faq and it doesn't answer my question:
What's a manchode?
This will only protect against shaped charges which make use of soft, highly conductive metals as the plasma(?) source; In other words, all they have to do is re-design the RPG's and it negates the multi-million dollar protection system.
Now, a rotating magentic field with Iron particles suspended in it, charged down to -10,000 volts, that would be interesting....
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Well this really is quite a cool piece of technology - the only problem is, as they state later in the article, its a solution to a single problem. This armour will only prevent against RPG's and bullets.. you hit a mine or go against something a little nastier, and it will not be able to protect you.
You would have to be pretty certain of the battle you were about to go into before you delployed vehicles carrying this specific type of armour?
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
"RPGs are extraordinarily widespread," said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org. "And if you have any doubt of that, watch Black Hawk Down."
Can i please not take any movie as a reference for stuff like this, otherwise id like to meet Willy Wonker and his fabulous Chocolate factory!!
I recall this idea being in a megaman game. I don't remember which one though. :/
====
Crudely Drawn Games
How convenient...
"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them." -- George H. W. Bush
Only difference was it was on a different website. http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_652954.html theres the link for ya.
That said, no one is putting much stock in manned tanks for future warfare. Every modern army has battlefield weaponry that can incapacitate or obliterate any type of tank defense. The best defense is simply not to be slow, or in the future, manned at all.
Stuff like that makes my hair stand on end.
In fact everyone in the immediate vicinity would have their hair standing on end when they charge up the capacitors!
Basically, the system can protect the weaker areas of a tank (the top or back) or a smaller, more moderately armored vehicle from HEAT attacks.
It's not good on too-lightly armored vehicles as even a dispersed molten copper spray will do some nasty damage. It's not good for the front of a main battle tank because they're all impervious to HEAT rounds anyways.
It also doesn't protect a tank from the most lethal of tank killing objects - the discarding sabot "long-rod" penetrator. Which is essentially a long, pointy rod of some appropriately dense material (depleted uranium being popular) that uses pure kinetic energy to annihilate the other tank.
So it is a useful technology, but some people are getting far too excited about it. It's a solution to a couple of problems - namely that battle tanks can't have heavy armor everywhere and that medium vehicles are sitting ducks for anti-tank rounds.
So, they'll just start making RPGs that don't have an electrically conductive tip. Set the bad guys back a few years, but they'll just find something else to shoot with the existing ammo.
Bummer, nice idea though. Could you get the power up high enough for an arc to destroy just about anything?
'nuff said.
Yup. k5 had it first.
The article can be found here.
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pants ahoy
The future of penetrative force on the battlefield will be unmanned, disposable units that ignore time and temperature. The last place I want to be in a future war is in the slowest device on the field.
Could you arm a refrigerator with this?
I'd love to find a way to keep my roomate from drinking my beer.
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Is GM offering it standard or as an option? Those fucking carjackers are in for it now....
No mention of how long it takes to ready the system. Or if the system can still function after the first hit.
So instead of $10 it now takes $20 to stop personnel carrier. The first round takes out the defenses and the second takes out the vehicle.
Prehaps it would be better if countries actually used it's soldiers for defense?
I read this article a week or so ago on reuters, except the headline was that the British were developing it, and the the US was interested.
This article headlines the US then goes on about how the British were doing everything It then mentions in a single paragraph that the US has spent over $110 million on it but gives no details.
Interesting.
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It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.
polarize the hull-plating!
Yes, it's a blog. Sorry if that offends you.
Does this remind anyone else of the electroplated armor on the Enterprise of the current series? I'll bet that in one hundred years that we will have an aircraft or spaceship with technology similar to the Enterprise, however rudimentary. Shields and Phasers are forseable in the not to distant future if you look at the progress that has been made in these areas to date. The "Star Wars" people are testing energy weapons to destory nuclear missles right now. Now we are talking about early energy shileds. We have had sensors,pervasive comptuers and communicators for years. However, I doubt warp drives or transporters are just around the corner :-)
Anyone remember Independence Day? I bet they stole the technology from downed alien spacecraft they have stashed somewhere in New Mexico or Nevada!
Wouldnt the copper being extremely hot when its vaporised?
FYI, there are many shaped charge weapons that don't rely upon copper or other metal pieces for their effect.
If my (ancient) training in our own Army was correct, American LAWs use shaped charges that are designed to melt the armor itself to provide the molten metal jet that does the interior damage.
Thus, if a particular adversary gets ahold of U.S. antitank weapons, I would suppose that this stuff would be ineffectual.
For more on electric amor, check out
this page.
A projectile made of ceramics wouldn't penetrate the outer armor.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Actually Fark.com had it Monday around 7:30AM (Probably PDT or close) if you really want to get picky.
Ya, except for the fact that a ceramic projectile would be USELESS!
The way current RPGs work is by projecting a stream of molten metel (usually cooper) which is hot enough to melt right through the armor and go inside the tank...
I'd like to see you make a ceramic that hot...
All k5 did was link to the article too. It's not like they actually had any journalistic additions. Fuck off.
Touché, but I don't think you posted that because I wanted to get picky...
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pants ahoy
For your next World Trade Organization protest, outfit your leather jacket with a beltful of high voltage capacitors, an external mesh of parallel wires spaced about two inches apart, and a momentary contact switch on the end of a sleeve. If someone you don't like grabs you, a touch of the button may send them a clear message. Use with caution.
It would be interesting to identify those readers (by identifying accounts that haven't logged in since then) and sending Taco or someone like that to interview the families (assuming they are comfortable with their names being released) and posting those interviews. Alternatively, it could be a traditional /. interview, with everyone asking questions. It would have to be handled delicately (ahem), but it could be quite moving and quite worthwhile.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Since Q(charge, Coulombs)=V(voltage, Volts)*C(capacitance, Farads), and I(current, Amperes)=V/R(resistance, Ohms), you could calculate the current. However, my guess is the military classifies this data.
I'm the Devil the Windows users warned you about.
If the system vaporizes most of the RPG, wouldn't the metal tank become partially vaporized in the process too?
This is all fine and dandy but the tank will always be an expensive piece of weaponry that is an incredible drain on funds/manpower as well as a liability on the battlefield in its present configuration. The tank should evolve in such a way as to make the large crew-manned rotating turret unnecessary by replacing the main gun with some type of vertically launched missile as well as anti-projectile missile technology. This would make tanks less expensive to produce and more survivable on the battlefield.
Amps are a measure of current.
Actually, they had a few paragraphs.
I can't believe that you used the phrase "journalistic additions" in reference to slashdot content.
Fuck on.
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pants ahoy
"Arm the explosive hull plating!", eh, I don't think so. (Although so insane an idea might make even the Klingons remark "Holy Feklar!")
We still need a few break-throughs in physics equal to Maxwell or Einstein to pull those kind of stunts.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
I pitty the poor fool that fires a wire-guided missile at one of these tanks eh?
However, I suspect it would create a good market for graphite-ribbon missiles similar to the type used to take out power generators and substations.
Excellent, now let's move on to the mexicans. BTW has anything ever been improved by adding mexicans?!?!
One of the most dangerous and pervasive threats facing American and British troops in combat zones is a primitive grenade launcher that only sets your typical terrorist back about $10.
Cool. How much is the shiping and handling? And where do I send my check? I'll take a gross. Just make sure they're delived by July 4th.
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"RPGs are extraordinarily widespread," said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org. "And if you have any doubt of that, watch Black Hawk Down."
I later overheard him mention that
"Phasers are extraordinarily widespread, And if you have any doubt of that, watch Star Trek."
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
copper would be just as useless... mass is mass and velocity is velocity... no getting around it... it like asying your trying to stop a freight train by blowing up the front... the bullet will continue on vaporized or not... you still have lots of atoms flying at high speed toward your tank...
another thing this wont protect from is near misses... an explosive shell that hits the ground nearby will still unlease all its fury on the tank... this only protects from exact hits... and even then probably wont
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
A dude I know was ripping up on Enterprise and how 'polarize the hull plating' doesn't mean anything. He insisted that it's just more 'Star Trek technobabble that doesn't mean anything'. This normally wouldn't be amusing except he thinks he knows everything about quantum physics, physics, and mathematics. I'm lookin forward to bursting his bubble. He takes this stuff seriously enough that you might consider what I'm about to do to him to be cruel. >:)
*Loves slapping nitpickers around*
"Derp de derp."
Ah, just like in Scorched Earth. If the enemy tank is shielded, you don't hit it with a nuke. You drop a nuke right next to it.
The U.S. government spends more money to research more efficient ways to kill people and gain forceful control over them than any other area.
The least socially sophisticated way of resolving problems with other people is killing them. Yet there is a lot of enthusiasm for killing among U.S. citizens.
I pulled together some links and explanation about this in the article What should be the Response to Violence?. The article is needs updating, but there is a lot of support for the idea that the enthusiasm for violence is due to a social breakdown in the United States.
The U.S. government has bombed 14 countries, directly killing about 3,000,000 people in the last 33 years.
Kind of funny that they would mention RPG's. Let's just declare the pentagon the DM, give all of our tanks +10 armor, and sweep through this world!
Its called a bugzapper
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
Just check Fallout I & II. They've used that in a *Personal Armor*
Oh, nevermind... it only protected against energy weapons.
"Polarize the hull plating"
Hmmm. same technology is used in Enterprise (star trek). Sorry to go off topic :)
The initial state of the armor before a hit is presumably pairs of parallel metal plates connected to an extremely low impedance electricity supply capable of extremely high current delivery. I wonder how it would survive more than one nearby puncture by an RPG? The first puncture through the outer plate makes a shortcircuit causing a massive current. Wouldn't a second hit on the same damaged area avoid any current because the plates are already shortcircuited?
Or is the current so high and the structure cleverly arranged so that the first pair of plates is totally vaporised, neatly clearing away the shortcircuit shrapnel and exposing another clean pair of plates underneath ready to take another hit? Maybe there is a stack of plates. Perhaps the plates are the same size as the largest possible impact damage, say 15cm, i.e. small enough that it is difficult to hit the same spot twice and not too big that a hit shortcircuits more than one pair of plates.
Why oil price increase equals economic trouble (Score: Interesti
shoots a torpedo through the reactor vent, it should work nicely!
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Sounds like fun, just throw a block of C4 at the tank, and the tank itself becomes the detonation device.
But I suppose this just continues the weapons cycle, in a few months time there will be any number of weapons capable of destroying a tank with this sort of armour, and then the next generation of armour will solve that problem, and so the cycle continues...
All this speculation is fine and dandy, but how bout some reality.
I was a tank crewman in the Army for 10 years. For the last 3 years I was a Master Gunner. Master Gunners are gunnery and ballistics experts. I was also a tank commander (meaning commander of a single tank and its crew) during Desert Storm.
Reality. The M1A1C, the last tank I served on, weights, with full combat load, 68 tons. An artillery shell, unless it is a direct hit, doesn't bother the tank. It may destroy the crews baggage, which is stowed on the outside of the tank. Possibly it may shatter some of the optics, although the gun sights are protected fairly well. A near miss by a high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) round is no more effective than a near miss by a rifle bullet. HEAT is a shaped charge, it has a 2 kilogram warhead that fires its explosive in jet stream directly in front of the round.
Aside from aircraft, there are two killers of tanks on the battlefield. The main gun of another tank, firing sabot. Sabot (more officially armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot long rod penetrator) is a 2 kilogram, 40 mm in diameter, dart of depleted uranium or tungsten alloy steel. It strikes the armor of the tank at a speed in excess of 5000 feet per second (~1520 meters per second). Basic physics tells you that this is a huge amount of energy released in a 40 mm circle. However, if the penetrator is not made of DU or tungsten steel it will shatter rather than penetrate. The other main killer is heavy anti-tank guided missiles, which fire shaped charges from over top of the tank. These missiles fire two charges, one right after the other, in order to defeat reactive armor.
The M1 tank doesn't use reactive armor, it uses laminate armor. Laminate armor is made up of layers of steel and ceramic, and is much more effective than an equivalent thickness of steel alloy. With the M1A1 Heavy (the variant used in Desert Storm) even the main gun of another M1 had difficulty penetrating the M1's armor at 1000 meters (point blank range for a tank engagement) and the M1A1C and M1A2 have armor improved over the Heavy variant.
Shaped charges and artillery have proved extremely ineffective against the M1, which is why the quest for rail gun technology, providing an even more effective kinetic energy penetrator than the current chemical energy main gun.
In my universe I'm perfectly normal, it's not my fault you don't live in my universe.
If you take Maxwell Products BCAP0010A03 as a sample of what can be done. It's a 2600 FARAD, 2.5 volt capacitor. You could array this in a 55 parallel by 5 series bank of 275 caps, yielding a capacitance of 28,600 farads at 12.5 volts (14 volts peak), the maximum current (within commercial ratings) would be 33,000 amps, which would deliver 412,500 watts. Optimizing the capacitors for discharge rate should be fairly simple for someone with a military budget. But even this simple calculation shows a way to store 2x10^6 watt seconds in less than 144kg using known technology. This is the equivalent power to running a conventional microwave oven for over an hour!
--Mike--
You can't change the laws of physics.
--Mike--
okay. let's first work out how much energy is needed to vaporize a chunk of copper.
grumble grumble -- calculate calculate:
A WHOLE FSCKING LOT. not an amount you will get out of a parallel plate capacitor the size of the tank's outer area.
okay you say: i will connect an external capacitor (like one of those nifty maxwell energy discharge capacitors.)
okay... fine. let us suppose that it worked; you charge up the sucker to 75kv, and without even bothering with the physics (10kJ does not vaporize that much copper, btw) -- let's say it worked. and bam we got ourselves a stopped charge.
what happens then? you used up your juice -- the copper vapor does not stay vaporized forever, you know. so there we got some copper solder (pretty much) bridging between the two nodes. do you think you can EVER recharge that capacitor? nope
okay you say: let's divide the outer surface into areas and dis-joint them. THAT WOULD SURELY WORK, right? if one "plate" stops a charge, the others are still charged up and ready to go.
so now let's consider the SIZE of the things. two points become blatently obvious:
1) if you divide the surface area of the tank into small areas, no way in heck will you get enough capacitance on them things to have any effect lest you charge them up to about 750 million volts. goot luck finding a dielectric to withstand that. (or a power-supply, for than matter)
2) given the above, we will be using discharge capacitors individually for each division of the armor. anybody who ever saw a picture of an energy discharge capacitor already know this is rediculous. those things are HUGE. i mean it: the casing can fit a person. not mentioning the weight of all the capacitor oil and dielectric material inside.
so in a last effort, lets suggest: one capacitor, many divisions. we can relay the divisions in and out of the charge section.
HA! relay = massive inductance. don't expect any kind of realistic "copper vaporizing" current if you use a relay. btw... with any kind of respectable current, your relay is probabbly the only thing that will be vaporizing.
so... yeah... vaporware. =)
My life in the land of the rising sun.
"Anti-tank warheads use a shaped charge to create a jet of molten copper that pierces armor..."
Wrong! First, shaped charge warheads do not create a jet of molten metal. The metal is solid but under such high pressure that it behaves like a liquid (basically it's being bent and shaped very quickly). It's not always copper either, some use aluminum.
Second, not all tank rounds use shaped charges! Sabot-type rounds use a long rod of metal, like a giant metal dart. These are more effective than shaped-charge warhead rounds and are what is typically used against tanks (despite the fact that American shaped-charge rounds are called High Explosive Anti-Tank). Shaped-charge rounds are usually reserved for softer vehicles like APC's, trucks etc.
There seem to be a few misconceptions about how tanks fare on the battlefield and how HEAT warheads work.
First off, a HEAT round detonates several feet away from the surface of a tank. The detonation shoots a stream of molten metal, which impacts the tank and attempts to cut through. Reactive armor helps to defeat this by disrupting the stream of molten metal so that it more or less splatters harmlessly against the tank. The idea is not to MELT or BURN through armor, but to cut it. The jet is moving at immense speeds (Driven by explosives). The bigger the warhead, ie, a TOW vs a LAW, the longer and more powerful the jet is.
Anyway, reactive armor is mainly designed to defeat smaller arms and missiles. It has no effect against Sabot rounds. I've seen a couple of comments about how one would have to know what kind of weapons the enemy has. This is not true. Basically, reactive armor sits on top of standard armor. It's usually fairly lightweight, though bulky.
Electrical reactive armor has the benefit of being easier to replace and make, as well as being a bit less dangerous for the crews to service. The reactive system will fail after one hit, but only in the location of the hit. Even if the tank were to be hit in the same spot twice, there is still a lot of armor to cut through. Reactive armor is basically a cheap, light layer of extra protection from HEAT-type rounds.
As far as the effectiveness of the tank on the modern battlefield, one has only to point to the Gulf War. Regardless of the "Air hype", tanks were responsible for most of the enemy vehicle kills. Tanks will remain a part of the battlefield for quite some time, although they are working on some tanks with fewer crew and lower profiles which also incorporate some stealth technology. Finally, tanks are much cheaper and easier to maintain than aircraft, as well as packing incredible firepower. In many cases, ballistic weapons are superior to guided missiles, as well as beaing a lot less expensive. Regardless of it's "low-tech" design, a Sabot round is by far the most cost-effective anti-armor firepower in use today.
Certainly tanks alone will be easy prey for aircraft, but most nations have a bewildering array of Surface to Air Missiles, which make aircraft a lot less effective. Tanks might get better, and incorporate new technology, but I doubt you will see the demise of the tank anytime in the near future.
For more info, check out: http://www.tank-net.org/
RPGs are extraordinarily widespread," said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org. "And if you have any doubt of that, watch Black Hawk Down."
'cause movies are always right!
up up up!
Who is Arnold Rimmer? Is he the goatse man's secret sidekick?
...comes with strong electronic armor.
This story reminds me of the zero gravity pen, an expensive solution to a fairly simple problem.
h tm
The Russians dealt with RPGs in Chechny by mounting chain link fence a few inches from the hull, causing the warhead to detonate too soon to be as effective. Combined with dismounted infantry and effective use of antiaircraft batteries against tall buildings, the RPG threat was rapidly diminished.
see: fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/fmsopubs/issues/grozny.
Of course if a few geeks can solve the same problem at a few million dollars more cost, it may almost be worth the lives of those infantry to deploy the system.
this would be so so improvement over todays reactive armour but a great innovation for the international space station!
As several people with experience on tanks have noted, a battle tank's armor by and large can shrug off RPGs. The main use for this technology is with lighter vehicles such as APCs and Bradleys, which most definitely can NOT take an RPG hit and keep moving
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
He covered a type of technology like this in his book "Tin Man". Basically it was a suit that would stiffen when hit with a high-velocity anything (fist or rocket). He upgraded the technology in his latest book "Wings of Fire". If you're at all interested, check out either book. Very cool stuff.
Now if I could get a battery pack like that to charge my Ipod....
Finally, while the Israelis have lost 2 Merkavas, both were to large explosive charges buried in the ground on or by the side of roads, rather than in urban areas, where, as the article explains, RPGs, especially when fired at the top armor, are the main threat.
Tierce
Who sponsors your feelings?
Well, there are a lot of areas where peacekeepers would probably love to have this sort of tech.
Doesn't sound like much of a peace, really.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
If you read the book, a major reason everything went south was the numerous RPGs the Somalis had. The choppers that went down were hit by RPGs on the back tail rotor.
lol tread... get it? tank tread vs forum thread? ha ha that's funny..... *sigh*
A Mr. Thomas Swift, Senior, of Shopton, New Jersey, USA, today filed suit against the UK firm that has developed "electric armor".
Mr. Swift claims to have invented electric armor in the early 1900's, along with the Electric Runabout, Electric Rifle (a man portible particle accellerator weapon) and several other amazing inventions incorporating the word "electric".
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
Sounds like these tanks could benefit from a quick reacting Phalanx gatling gun to serve as anti-missile defense, though I have no idea what the optimal flight times of Dragons and TOWs are. Enagagment times might just be too fast to be practical. I'd say with all the power these capacitors provide you could create some electromagnetic buffer to help defelct shells on impact, but any non-ferrous weapon would negate that. I guess slopped laminate composites will have to do unti the startrek defense shield comes online. And hovertanks. Gotta have hovertanks.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Limiting your opponents's mobility is probably 80% of the battle. Something tells me this armour doesn't do a damn thing for the tracks. Granted, it's a smaller target to hit, but once he can't move, he's history sooner or later.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Anyone remember this article? It was about using piezoelectric microfibers in tennis rackets - when an electric current runs through the fibers, they become taut, giving an extra push to the ball. I always wondered if something like that could be used in military purposes (maybe personal armor, if not tank armor). If not, they might make a heck of a pair of boxing gloves!
This kinda sorta sounds like what Archer does to the Enterprise everytime he goes into battle (yes, I know it's just fictional entertainnment, calm your ass down). Remember all the /.ers scoffing at the "bring the armor plating online" script line for the first episode this season?
Additionally, a couple well placed M/6s (anti-tank mines) work quite well. It may be dated technology, and it won't destroy modern tanks, but it will disable them.
The U.S. Army is switching to wheeled armored cars instead of APCs for the new force. You don't need to worry about RPGs killing the tracks, they'll just shoot the tires out with an AK-47.
The plates only form a circuit during the impact, the offending material (enemy round), which closes the circuit, is vaporized by the impact, and the same plates can be reused as is...
The actual area of the piercing in the outer plate would be very small (~4cm), so I think the multiple hits capability is assuming that no two of them are in the EXACT same place.
The things I would be worried about are
1. How close in time the hits can be, I assume that the plates would have to be recharged after a hit, I wonder how long that would take.
2. What if the tank gets hit when it is not turned on?
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
NOTHING can stop somebody from making more powerful shaped charges that will travel at a high enough velocity to initial penetrate the armor before melting, nor will this stop a heavy Uranium shell from ripping through the armor and vaporizing everyone inside. This is only good against RPG'S which only 3rd world countries and terrorists even bother to employee. I see the need for it because the Russians and their t-90's with todays standard reactive armor (and shardem armor) are getting their asses kicked by the Chechens who are using mines and RPG's. But is this worth the cost? Against a 1st rate army this armor is useless. It will only help us fight savages who already are no match for our air power. The T-90 though is a top line tank that argueably outclasses anything we have and even it can be knocked out, but then again the Russian are loseing because their soldiers lack training. The Israeli Merkava has proven itself against RPG'S and similiar tactics that the Russians face (though not at the same scale). Though I think everyone agrees the Merkava beats even the T-90. The M1A1/A2 is a good tank but could use updating so this is probably good news. The T-95 design is reaching finalization so it is time for the US to develop something new as well just to keep up in the export business.
The 68 tons is it's only real vulnerabilty. It's take an enormous amount of effort to get it to the battlefield. Most of the R&D going forward is going to be directed toward efforts to replace mass with technology.
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
"Commander divert all power to (or is it from?) the deflector shields." But seriously. It seems that with the rise of highly charged/energetic weapons we will also see a rise in electric/plasma/whathave you "force fields" in order to counteract these threats. I remember reading something about using "cold" plasma trapped by magnetic fields to deflect or dissipate energy beams. With technologies like that anti- energy/particle beam "shields" aren't far off.
Fictional?! I fell my world slowly dissolving around me...
.noitacidem deen uoy siht daer nac uoy fI
touché
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pants ahoy
Note to anyone thinking of following the link in the original post: don't bother. hevanet.com contains more that the usual load of leftist-socialist-conspiracy theory crap. It's poorly organized, poorly written and above all, poorly reasoned. It's a spectacularly awful attempt to add something useful to the debate on the dynamics of US foreign relations.
Futurepower dude should immediately yank his head out of his ass, then proceed to the nearest Clue store to buy one of their fine products. Sheesh.
Another possible counter-measure would be a binary shell. The first blast either shorts or blows away part of the armor so that the main charge can go thru unperturbed behind it.
When all else fails, run.
Okay. The problem with the M1 in all its variants. Is weight. No RPG is going to penetrate any modern MBT. The problem is moving ths 68 ton M1 to the battlefield in a timely manner. The fact is you really cant. Nor is the M1 or any MBT needed to fight a bunch of savages in Afganistan or some other 3rd world country the T-55's of the Northern Alliance did a good enough job. The army wants an improved APC that can perform some of the duties of the M1 yet be easier to transport and cheaper. Also the M1 needs adequate infrastructure. It cant really travel on the poor roads or ancient bridges present in Most countries without destroying them. A lighter APC with wheel doesnt have this problem. This armor is designed for APC's not MBT's because APC's need the protection. The Russians have lost MANY APC's to Chechen RPG's and the US doesnt want to suffer such losses. RPG's are shit. They are useless against any modern MBT the T-90/80's the M1A1/2 and the Israeli Merkava have proven that, but these tanks have proven that mines can easily destroy them (especially the T-80). Because of all this many experts today are questioning the role of the MBT (main battle tank) in the future. Nobody today believes that any 1st or even 2nd world countries will ever again fight each other. The problem comes from the 3rd world. Because of this I doubt the MBT will ever play a CRITICAL role in war again. Agree / Disagree?
Poor lads at the DOD. If they only did their homework they'd know that Red Armor can defeat RPG's. Any Quake DM fan knows that. Throw in a shield belt and your all set.
When all else fails, run.
adapt it to lead, and equip it on the grunts. better get a headshot.
.cig - what you do after winning a good flame war
But what does it SOUND like in the cabin of an M1 when it gets hit by an anti-tank round. That's what I want to know.
I wonder what would happen to this tank if it was hit by a HEAT round right after being hit by an EMP pulse that takes out its electronics.
If they are researching shields they are also researching EMP weapons technology that might have reasonable success in disabling this shield.
It's been awhile since I read David Drake, honestly. Hammer's Slammers and all that. No reason why you couldn't make some sort of feed mechanism for the shotgun shells (50mm ^__^), I guess. Yeah, giving away your position is kinda a bad thing, though I'm sure you could key it off some IR system to look for the launch flash like in some aircraft sensors. Maybe.
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Copper? Oh ever so past tense.
What about the tons and tons of depleted Ur 238 (with some plutonium mixed in) that was used in the Gulf War and and portions of what used to be Yugoslavia. UK and US seem wedded to continue using this (although many other NATO members are having second thoughts after piss testing tank crews afterwards with mass spec and finding Ur in urine up to several years afterwards)since it works splendidly to knock out tanks. Since Russia is sitting on them same piles of Ur 238 - what is to stop them from changing over to this and selling to whomever wants to buy it. Moral qualms about 10 fold increased in childhood leukemia in the theatres of operation for generations to come (the Ur becomes an aerosol after impact. No, the Russians should be selling DU antintank rounds to about anyone in the near future.
No, whenever a defensive mechanism gets too involved, there is always easy, simple ways around it.
Just another rat hole waste of money like Star Wars.
But seriously, I'm glad somebody is thinking ahead. Of course you're right. Any yahoo with an RPG can pop-up and ruin your day, but the people that really have to worry about them are Blackhawks (sic) and light armour. Oh sure, they're a nuisance to the heavier stuff, but not the right tool for the job. As far as the non-ferrous shell goes, I meant for deflecting shells via EM charged armour, not the system of the story. Sci-fi stuff, I know.
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Really, I don't think they'd be switching if the advantages didn't outweigh the disadvantages, and I consider being disabled by an AK47 a serious disadvantage. Unless the designers all of a suddn planted their heads up their ass, I'm sure this has been considered. Like TamMan says, Hummers are highly AK47 resistant from top to bottom. Plus, wheels have got to do wonders for manuuverablity and gas milage ;)
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Interesting thought.
Makes tanks sound like battleships c. 50 years ago!
The related question is whether this armor will be usable on helicopters. This sort of protection would have prevented many of the blackhawk down problems.
"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
nms
Instead of armouring you refrigerator, why not buy the beer in specially layered electronic armour? This way, both your frig and beer are protected from shaped-charge attacks... The downside is that the beer cans have two huge capacitors hanging of the side and their's a chance of zapping yourself if you spill any.
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I've always wanted to make a tazoe from that concept.. Electrify a fine mist or solid stream of water and shock the hijibees out of somebody ^__^
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Ok, there's some misconceptions here about what a shaped charge warhead does and how it works. Basically there is a very precisely shaped cone of a ductile metal (copper is the usual choice). This is surrounded with explosives which have a high VOD (Velocity Of Detonation). The detonator is at the apex of the cone (away from the target). When fired, the blast wavefront propagates towards the open of the cone symmetrically. It moves so fast and with such a large amount of force, that the metal cone flows like a liquid (but does NOT melt), and is inverted into a long thin jet. This jet is moving on the order of 30,000 - 50,000 ft./sec. This velocity is what give the jet its penetrating power. It is not melted or turned into a plasma, and it does not burn through the target, it simply pushes aside or shatters the target material out of the way. Do a search on the "Munroe Effect". The standoff from the target allows the jet to enlongate and penetrate deeper (thus the long nose on the TOW II).
Shaped charges have been cut into slices and fired into water. Pieces of the jet were recovered with the cuts intact...thus no melting.
The last thing a tank commander expected to mutter:
"damn! they've adapted"
SPAM
Current is measured in amperes (amps).
It's been a while since someone's taken a basic Physics class. Coulombs is the measure of charge. Current is measured in Amperes.
I was serving in the Egyptian Armed Forces during operation Dessert Shield effective from August 5th to December 19th, 1990. I was among the 1st troops that arrived from Egypt, deployed on the Saudi borders with Kwait. My gun was RPG, and a 726 X 39 ( known to the west as AK-47). My orders were clear, simple, and easy; stop anything coming from the north. We never considered that the armor is what you shoot at. We always pointed at the space between the tower and the body, or at the belt. As soon as one belt is cut, the tank is like a sitting camel; you can shoot at it at any time you want, as many times as you want. I prayed to God that they do not feel that I am over that hill, or in that ditch, or around that rock, and call God to help me. Just to stop the Tank. I always reloaded as fast as I could, with the cold weather, sandy winds, burning petrol smoke, and falling missiles and approching steel beasts, I never lost faith in two; God and my RPG.
== armchair experts on everything. "Electric reactive armor for tanks, eh?... Interesting idea... if it works. ...yes... hrmm... *strokes goatee*"
File this annoying post under "boys and their toys." If anyone needs me, I'll be watching the Hitl^H^H^H^HHistory channel.
I think why we can see why you were only allowed to command ONE tank as you said.. If you take time to read the article you'll see that the system is being tested more on APC's and lightly armored vehicles... the article even mentions the RPG's aren't effective against tanks really..
reading.. its a useful thing..
As an Egyptian drafted soldier, I served in the Egyptian Armed Forces during operation Desert Sgield from Aug.5th to Dec.19th , 1990. I was among the first Egyptian troops to arrive to the Saudi borders next to Kwait. My weapons were only two, my 762X39 ( known in the west as AK-47) and my RPG. The orders were simple, clear and easy for anyone to understand; "stop anything coming from the north" and so we did. I was always running with a lot of missiles on my shoulder, or digging, or hiding, or waiting, or shooting like crazy. I always prayed to God that they never see me hiding behind that rock, or in that ditch, or on that hill. We always pointed at tanks at two spots; either at the belt ( which is most of my hits ), or at the neck ( the space between the body and the tower). As soon as the belt is cut, the Tank is like a sitting camel; you shoot at it at any time you want, as many times as you want. I always heard about hundreds of thousands of soldiers coming to help us, but I never see anyone, except some brave American Paratroopers from 82nd Devision , and crazy funny Pakistani's from the 138th special forces. They were always saying that it will be OK, and that we will be given all kinds of assistance soon, but deep inside me, I never believed them. We were alone in a bad front,, cold weather at night, boiling heat at the day, sandy winds, bad black smoke from petrol fires, and an enemy that has no mercy, driving beasts of steel. I never stopped asking God for help, to make me shoot better, and reload faster, and hide more. Through this deppressing time of my life, I never lost faith in two; God, and my RPG.
Good reply by a tank gunner. Thanks.
I do not think that the electric discharge will have any influence on a high speed and huge temerature jet of molten copper. The only thing that might happend is that you'll get the the crew electrocuted besides been roasted.
http://ebgp.net/ccc/
indeed speculation is fun and its the reason why im reading slashdot, where anyone can be an expert... what i meant was that the shell doesn't have to directly hit the armor... it can either hit nearby (which as you said probably wouldn't do much) or it can explode inches away... how hard would it be to come up with a anti-weapon that is really to slugs... one dummy slug that will vaporize and then the actual shell lands...
also wouldn't the heat generated by the massive amount of energy put through a resistor (the shell) cause all the nearby caps to melt?... although i understand this is slashdot and this article was posted for the coolness which i dont deny i dont think that as it is explained in the article this technology will help...
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The second form of attack is from above, by smart air-launched or ground-launched missiles which fire light self-forging projectiles down through the lighter-armoured top and turret of the tank. The MBT designers can't fit heavier armour there as the extra weight would cripple the tank. The electric armour would be best placed here, as these self-forged projectiles seem to be vulnerable to disruption by electrical discharge.
APCs and other lighter-skinned vehicles might benefit from this kind of armour to defend against missile attacks, but they are still dead meat for any kind of large DU penetrator round.
> HEAT is a shaped charge, it has a 2 kilogram
> warhead that fires its explosive in jet stream
> directly in front of the round.
HEAT rounds can be larger than 2KG. TOW, Hellfire, Panserfaust etc all have larger warheads. But you might have been thinking of RPG-7 and M-72, that both have warheads in the 2KG range... with the actual explosive making up less than 0.5KG.
One thing that I haven't seen discussed here is how fast the electrical "shield" can recharge. I doubt that it can recharge fast enough (or store enough juice in teh caps) for a dual warhead HEAT round. It could even have problems with multiple simultaneous fire, i.e in an ambush with 3-5 soldiers firing RPG-7, M-72 or M-136 RFC. That's the only way that I would even consider taking out a M1 with light AA-rockets (from behind, above (i.e in a city) in a coordinated attack.
I wonder why APFSDS type ammo is not available in smaller RFC style weapons.....
//TheToon
A lot of respondents here have said that a shaped charge projects a jet of molten copper. Years ago, when I used to subscribe to sci.military, I made that mistake. Many of the correspondents there didn't hesitate to quickly set me straight, and explain that the shaped charge projects a plasma jet.
Here is an article from Lawrence Livermore Labs with some excellent pictures of the jets in action.
Here is another article.
And here are some animations.
1 meg avi
770K avi
10 meg avi
This newspaper article gets the scale wrong. It says the jet travels at around 1000 miles per hour, ie not much more than the speed of sound, whereas the Lawrence Livermore article I linked to above says the jet travels at 10,000 kilometers per second. Michael Smith, the telegraph's defence correspondent, was off by a factor of just 57,000,000.
I didn't see anyone mention that this isn't new at all. The british army developed this years ago (although it was secret for a number of years, all we knew was that it involved charging the outer plating). :) would let you destroy shaped Cu charges. Simple, yet effective - the hallmark of British military thinking :) ;)
It's certainly not "in development", it has been in real live use for several years by the brits. I imagine the technology has been sold/stolen so it's probably in recent generations of other tanks.
It's funny though, despite knowing that our special tank armour involved charging the outer plate, it never occurred to me for a moment that grounding an inner plate (or the other way around, charging the inner plate and grounding the outer. whatever
Someone from the Gulf War commented earlier that he didn't think this was too big an issue because his tanks had withstood RPG hits. I guess anything could if it had enough armor, but I would imaging it would be better to carry less armor, but have it be charged and be as effective as several more inches. Makes your tank lighter, faster, etc. As for stopping the uranium/alloy charges, well, I guess we'll have to wait and see what the lab boys can do next
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
I've heard that EFP's (Explosively-Formed Penetrators) do use copper... I have yet to figure out how that works. Copper doesn't seem dense enough to me, although I'm sure ductility is a major factor.
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
I know this because Tyler knows this.
new item for doom III !
The monroe effect only creates a plasma if the shaped charge is filled with air (ie not metal). If you read the 2nd paragraph of your LLNL paper you'll notice that the metal core is "compressed and squeezed forward" not melted or sublimated. It's a high speed extrusion, like making wire at a few miles per second.
maybe i should consider professionell help....
What gives? This story was submitted by two people I know last week, both rejected, now it is posted? Come on editors. Take a little time to read what people submit, talk about stories amongst each other, and maybe decide as a group what gets posted, and stop leaving postings up to the whims of individuals who may or may not like a particular artocle at any one point in time.
we had 'side mines' training in army once, those things are like a 20cm*20cm halfsphere. copper on the other side and explosive on the other, the explosion melts the copper and sends at high speed towards the target.
anyways, this was invented by some american dude sometime in the history, can't remember if it was in 1950's or so.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Actually, what gets created depends on the round. High end rounds (AT4, etc do create plasma). Many lower rounds don't.
I read the article, and I responded to the folks talking about this armor and tanks. Read the original posts I responded to.
Reading ... it's a useful thing.
In my universe I'm perfectly normal, it's not my fault you don't live in my universe.
I imagine one of these is hot enough and fast enough (5100 Mi/H) to minimize the effectiveness of electric armour.
Does anyone know how conductive Superheated Delpleted Uranium is ?
From our Army:
The newest class of weapons under development are an offshoot of thinking during the Reagan Administration. Initially intended for operation in space, the rail gun is a relatively simple concept based upon principles many beginning science classes could understand.
The rail gun uses a high precision milled armature, perhaps coated with teflon (or a liquid teflon like fluid) as a guide to a extremely hard metal projectile. The projectile is typically housed in a "sabot" like structure that splits apart and sheds itself from the projectile after exiting the "barrel" of the rail gun.
The rail gun uses a highly charged electromagnetic armature to provide initial thrust to the projectile by repelling it away and then accelerating the projectile in its sabot at intervals along the rail. Each pulse adds more than sufficient energy to accelerate the projectile and sabot. The target velocity is near 2500 kilometers per second or approximately 5100 MPH.
At this speed the projectile superheats.
The projectile delivers a shock wave and a heat wave, destroying the interior or armor protected vehicles or buildings.
Make Love Not War !
Actually, I was thinking of the HEAT round fired by the M1, whose explosive charge is 2 KG. If that round is not effective then it should be obvious to all that no possible man portable missile/rocket will be effective.
I specifically mentioned heavy missiles like TOW, although TOW II is much more effective because of it's dual warhead top down attack.
In my universe I'm perfectly normal, it's not my fault you don't live in my universe.
It really works well. Imagine a shopping cart, hurtling through the lot after being pushed by some sourball-sucking pre-teen sinner. It makes contact with the old Conti and WHAM pile of dust. It was worth the extra tacked on by the dealer but it makes waxing a moot point.
Driving in the rain is like driving through Vegas but you get used to it.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
...what about taking two hits in a row? Is there enough charge for a second incoming anti-tank weapon?
Now you know why they charge the hull plates on Star Trek. At least we now know that the Brits actually are watching the latest Trek series. Whooo Yaaa!
And they all think they know far more about the particular problem than the guys designing the damn thing too. It's a good think we've got all these slashdot geniuses here to illuminate the flaws in their armor design.
here to point out the flaws in this system. Because by god, I'm sure these guys never even thought of that. Slashdot really should start charging people for all this free, world class advice on their products and inventions.
So they slap capacitive plates on the outside? So the other guy just puts a penetrating cap on the round to punch through the plates and detonate the shaped charge against the now exposed armor.
The best tactic is still to blow the tracks off. Invest in anti-tank mines or improve methods of hitting them. Tanks are pretty useless when they aren't mobile so they have to show those tracks eventually.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
That you can't put the fucking armor on the rotor blades, which are what got disabled in Somalia.
Great, the body the the helicopter is now protected against minor RPG hits. The rotors are totally unprotected, and the helicopter can't carry any troops anymore, because you've used up it's entire cargo capacity installing electro-armor. So why are we flying these empty helicopters into the battle again?
"RPGs are extraordinarily widespread," said John Pike,
I'm sorry, I keep reading that as Role Playing Games. What does it stand for again?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
how about
some of this
Properties
* Density: 2.51 g/cm3
* Crystal structure: Rombohedral
* Melting Point: around 2,450oC
* Very high hardness: It is third hardest material next to diamond and cubic boron nitride (cBN).
* Thermal expansion coefficient: 5 X 10-4 oC-1
* High resistance to chemical attack
* Boron carbide has a high neutron absorption cross section -- for thermal neutron is around 4,000 barns. And the price is much less than pure boron.
* Electrical conductive: electrical resistivity at 25oC is 0.1-10 ohm . cm
The UK Atomic Wearpons Establisment hold a complex fabrication patent, they can make more or less any shape they want.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
There are a LOT of people who are pointing out that (pseudoqoute:) "all they (the bad guy) has to do is change their ammunition to XYZ to circumvent this armor." I will assume for the remainder of this article that they know what they're talking about. Hell, I even think they're right. BUT:
1) Copper heads on these so called RPGs are cheaper than any other, equally effective, munition type.
2) Why would anyone, other than someone who was gearing up specifically to fight the American/British land forces spend the time, money and general effort required to re-equip an entire force with more expensive, slightly less generally effective, but able to penetrate Electronic sheilding, weapons?
If you don't equip EVERY damn tank/light armor vehicle with them, you can effectivly protect a couple of VERY valuable vehicles.
just my read on deployment type
hmmmm?
If he didnt fight the deportation process he could have left almost immediately. He spent 3+ years in prison because he sued to stay in the country. Immigrants dont have the same rights as citizens in EVERY country. I dont feel sorry for him at all, especially because he was here illegally. Im from Russia and I immigrated here 19 year ago. In Russia they would have tortured him and probably had him executed. Here he was simply deported!
I can just see it now "Scotty we need more power to the shields!!!"
Make it idiot-proof and someone will build a better idiot.
After all, he made D&D, the mother of all RPG!
Hmmm... But what happen when reactive armor quipped tanks are they are hit when crossing water - Will they short out?
:OD ?
Does that mean i will be able to take out an M1A2 Abrams with a high waterbaloon projected at the tank @ 500mph
The point of the new armor is to dramatically decrease the enormous bulk of physical armor. Main battle tanks are very heavy now, and top-down missles will require even more armor. Eventually, you end up with tanks too heavy to transport, too heavy to drive across bridges or in swampy terrain, and too heavy to keep supplied with fuel.
what about the heat generated by the electric arcing... wouldn't this cause the caps nearby to melt all the caps nearby?
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It would help in defeating the random RPG/TOWII attack but would not be of much use from mutiple impacts from kinetic kill projetiles like what one would get if attacked by a weapon like the 30mm avenger cannon in the A10 tunderbolt II the discharge may cuase the first few round to explode if they are exploding rounds but not the other 20 to 70 rounds comming in. In short it would offer no protection from that type of weapon.