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It's also funny you won't find progressives campaigning to have more women and minorities working in the law field.

Of course you will. You just won't find them campaigning that way here, on Slashdot, because this is not a place where LAWYERS tend to congregate, you fucking dimwit. Slashdot is a place where dev/coder/engineer/science types tend to congregate, so an article about discrimination in STEM is very relevant here. An article about the legal profession would - despite Slashdot's large cohort of armchair lawyers - be greeted with a big yawn, and be mostly irrelevant.

If you go to places where lawyers tend to read and communicate, you'll certainly find articles talking about the gender gap in the legal profession. Start reading here: http://www.nalp.org/0515resear...

Just a reminder kids - stay in school - LAW SCHOOL.

That would be a bad idea. The legal job market is terrible and will remain so for a long time because of the tremendous oversupply of lawyers. The situation is likely to get worse; despite the oversupply, universities are actually opening new law schools and increasing class sizes. Meanwhile, the number of available jobs is shrinking as law firms lay off associates and partners, government agencies have their budgets frozen or cut, corporate legal departments go through similar cuts, and the overall demand for legal services goes down. For example, hard as it may be for Slashdot readers to believe, spending on patent litigation and prosecution have actually gone down in this recession.

Some highlights: Overall employment down to 88.3% (2% of which are law school 'jobs program' jobs). 25% of jobs are temporary. Only 70.8% have a job that actually requires a JD. 22% are still actively looking for work despite being employed. All of these numbers are worse than prior years. Given the self-selection and reporting bias involved it's likely that the true numbers are even worse.

Also notable is the salary distribution for new law school graduates. It's bimodal, with one peak centered at $50,000 (i.e., the median family income in the US) and another at $160,000 (i.e., the select few that get jobs at large law firms). Even if you get a job with a large law firm, there's a good chance your actual employment will be deferred for up to 18 months. In the meanwhile you may or many not get paid anything, depending on the firm.

No, law school is actually a horrible decision from an economic point of view unless you can get a full scholarship or are assured of a well paying job straight out of school (e.g., strong family connections at a large law firm).

Just a reminder kids - stay in school - LAW SCHOOL.

That would be a bad idea. The legal job market is terrible and will remain so for a long time because of the tremendous oversupply of lawyers. The situation is likely to get worse; despite the oversupply, universities are actually opening new law schools and increasing class sizes. Meanwhile, the number of available jobs is shrinking as law firms lay off associates and partners, government agencies have their budgets frozen or cut, corporate legal departments go through similar cuts, and the overall demand for legal services goes down. For example, hard as it may be for Slashdot readers to believe, spending on patent litigation and prosecution have actually gone down in this recession.

Some highlights: Overall employment down to 88.3% (2% of which are law school 'jobs program' jobs). 25% of jobs are temporary. Only 70.8% have a job that actually requires a JD. 22% are still actively looking for work despite being employed. All of these numbers are worse than prior years. Given the self-selection and reporting bias involved it's likely that the true numbers are even worse.

Also notable is the salary distribution for new law school graduates. It's bimodal, with one peak centered at $50,000 (i.e., the median family income in the US) and another at $160,000 (i.e., the select few that get jobs at large law firms). Even if you get a job with a large law firm, there's a good chance your actual employment will be deferred for up to 18 months. In the meanwhile you may or many not get paid anything, depending on the firm.

No, law school is actually a horrible decision from an economic point of view unless you can get a full scholarship or are assured of a well paying job straight out of school (e.g., strong family connections at a large law firm).

Not typically, unless you are willing to live in a place where that's not much money anyhow and work 90 hours a week to try to get to the billable hour expectations of your firm. See this NALP article and others on their site for more information.

Reasons range from over-hiring during the boom and cuts during the recession to the boost in the unemployed pool caused by scandals like Enron. There were a few firms who even revoked the offers they made to graduating lawyers - dropping them on their butts late enough in the game to almost ensure they remained unemployed for a while. That's a rather unheard-of event in the legal profession, as reputations are everything - it'll kill those firms' chances of hiring the top lawyers out of law school for years to come. Not pleasant. I know people that graduated high up in their classes from top law schools last year that are shoveling snow and mowing lawns for a living right now. Jobs are starting to come through, but typically they aren't anywhere near what one would have expected three years ago.

Accounting hasn't seemed much better - the major scandals dumped a lot of experienced accountants on the streets, and some of the biggest firms collapsed hard. There's also a smaller number of startups to pick up individual accountants. And business? You talked to any VC recently?

It's rough out there right now. But I agree with your primary recommendation - do what you think you'll love doing. Hell, it probably isn't a bad idea to extend the college-time a bit trying out different fields to find that love until the economy picks up - if one is optimistic that it will. I think it's starting to, if we can try to avoid starting any more long quagmire-style wars and get our government spending in check before things really go south we might have a chance.

> Fist off these are NOT all kids who are 20-25.

I Never claimed that they were all in that age bracket, just that the article said that those that were, got better paying jobs (on the average) than the older ones. 62% of their jobs were in the private sector with a median salary of 90K.

> Actually, thing have gotten much worse.

Beg your pardon? Let's look at the full quote:
"This 28th consecutive report documents the first decrease in the employment rate of new law graduates since 1993, with a figure of 90% of graduates for whom employment status was known. This compares with a figure of 91.5% for the prior year, and is evidence of the effect of the general economic downturn on the employment market for new law school graduates."

Much worse? Please! Name one other sector that has it better.
Also, comparing the 2002 report and the 2001 report shows that the median salary of lawyers' first jobs in the private sector rose from 80K to 90K.

> Salaries were inflated SKY HIGH due to the tech bubble

The "tech bubble" burst around April 2000. Please compare the pre-burst 2/2000 survey with the post-burst 2/2001 survey and the middle-of-economic-slowdown 2/2002 survey.

> such, that $125 is going to be the intro level salary for SPECIALIZED lawyers a looong time.

Please explain how can a lawyer fresh out of law school be SPECIALIZED?
Please explain why, in your opinion, lawyers' salaries are different from the salaries of other people, which have fallen since 2000.

> In addition there have been a great number of layoffs and not too many golden parachutes.
For example, Dechert's DC office let go of 9 first years (Right before their christmas party, no less!) this past December. And there has been belt tightening all around.

Nine? Wow... Now for some perspective:
Nortel has announced a total of 52,000 layoffs in the 18 months prior to September 2002. Lucent has turfed 50,910 and Motorola Inc. 42,910.

The bottom line is: in Feb 2002, 90% of law school graduates of 2001 were employed. 57.8% of them obtained their first job in private practice.

> But lets not forget that the $125 is for specialized LARGE FIRM lawyers ONLY.

Recent graduates are not "specialized". Also, the article states:
"Although salaries at large firms generally did not increase beyond the $125,000 level, the increasing frequency of salaries at this level widened the salary differential between private and public sector jobs." (emphasis mine)

Even if ignore the $125K figure, the $90K median in private practice is still impressive.

> Also, they work 60-80 hours a week!

Source please!

According to this article: "The typical Philadelphia lawyer works about 51 hours per week".
Another article (sorry, lost the source) describes lawyers that are expected to generate 2000 billable hours/year as being severely overworked.

Also, the fact that lawyers bill their clients for X hours, does not mean that they actually worked that amount of time.

> To recap- 1- they are graduates who are probably older than you who are NOT KIDS

According to the survey, most of the best paid ones are.

> they are not fresh out of college, they are fresh out of LAW school

Not being a native English speaker, I thought that the term "college" could be applied to law school as well. Would the term "fresh out of university" be more acceptable?

> with another 100k+ debt, who will have to work at least 60 hours a week.

Source please!

>If they have it so great- why aren't YOU going to law school?!

What makes you think that my personal reasons for not going to law school have any bearing on the facts of the case?

> Fist off these are NOT all kids who are 20-25.

I Never claimed that they were all in that age bracket, just that the article said that those that were, got better paying jobs (on the average) than the older ones. 62% of their jobs were in the private sector with a median salary of 90K.

> Actually, thing have gotten much worse.

Beg your pardon? Let's look at the full quote:
"This 28th consecutive report documents the first decrease in the employment rate of new law graduates since 1993, with a figure of 90% of graduates for whom employment status was known. This compares with a figure of 91.5% for the prior year, and is evidence of the effect of the general economic downturn on the employment market for new law school graduates."

Much worse? Please! Name one other sector that has it better.
Also, comparing the 2002 report and the 2001 report shows that the median salary of lawyers' first jobs in the private sector rose from 80K to 90K.

> Salaries were inflated SKY HIGH due to the tech bubble

The "tech bubble" burst around April 2000. Please compare the pre-burst 2/2000 survey with the post-burst 2/2001 survey and the middle-of-economic-slowdown 2/2002 survey.

> such, that $125 is going to be the intro level salary for SPECIALIZED lawyers a looong time.

Please explain how can a lawyer fresh out of law school be SPECIALIZED?
Please explain why, in your opinion, lawyers' salaries are different from the salaries of other people, which have fallen since 2000.

> In addition there have been a great number of layoffs and not too many golden parachutes.
For example, Dechert's DC office let go of 9 first years (Right before their christmas party, no less!) this past December. And there has been belt tightening all around.

Nine? Wow... Now for some perspective:
Nortel has announced a total of 52,000 layoffs in the 18 months prior to September 2002. Lucent has turfed 50,910 and Motorola Inc. 42,910.

The bottom line is: in Feb 2002, 90% of law school graduates of 2001 were employed. 57.8% of them obtained their first job in private practice.

> But lets not forget that the $125 is for specialized LARGE FIRM lawyers ONLY.

Recent graduates are not "specialized". Also, the article states:
"Although salaries at large firms generally did not increase beyond the $125,000 level, the increasing frequency of salaries at this level widened the salary differential between private and public sector jobs." (emphasis mine)

Even if ignore the $125K figure, the $90K median in private practice is still impressive.

> Also, they work 60-80 hours a week!

Source please!

According to this article: "The typical Philadelphia lawyer works about 51 hours per week".
Another article (sorry, lost the source) describes lawyers that are expected to generate 2000 billable hours/year as being severely overworked.

Also, the fact that lawyers bill their clients for X hours, does not mean that they actually worked that amount of time.

> To recap- 1- they are graduates who are probably older than you who are NOT KIDS

According to the survey, most of the best paid ones are.

> they are not fresh out of college, they are fresh out of LAW school

Not being a native English speaker, I thought that the term "college" could be applied to law school as well. Would the term "fresh out of university" be more acceptable?

> with another 100k+ debt, who will have to work at least 60 hours a week.

Source please!

>If they have it so great- why aren't YOU going to law school?!

What makes you think that my personal reasons for not going to law school have any bearing on the facts of the case?

> Fist off these are NOT all kids who are 20-25.

I Never claimed that they were all in that age bracket, just that the article said that those that were, got better paying jobs (on the average) than the older ones. 62% of their jobs were in the private sector with a median salary of 90K.

> Actually, thing have gotten much worse.

Beg your pardon? Let's look at the full quote:
"This 28th consecutive report documents the first decrease in the employment rate of new law graduates since 1993, with a figure of 90% of graduates for whom employment status was known. This compares with a figure of 91.5% for the prior year, and is evidence of the effect of the general economic downturn on the employment market for new law school graduates."

Much worse? Please! Name one other sector that has it better.
Also, comparing the 2002 report and the 2001 report shows that the median salary of lawyers' first jobs in the private sector rose from 80K to 90K.

> Salaries were inflated SKY HIGH due to the tech bubble

The "tech bubble" burst around April 2000. Please compare the pre-burst 2/2000 survey with the post-burst 2/2001 survey and the middle-of-economic-slowdown 2/2002 survey.

> such, that $125 is going to be the intro level salary for SPECIALIZED lawyers a looong time.

Please explain how can a lawyer fresh out of law school be SPECIALIZED?
Please explain why, in your opinion, lawyers' salaries are different from the salaries of other people, which have fallen since 2000.

> In addition there have been a great number of layoffs and not too many golden parachutes.
For example, Dechert's DC office let go of 9 first years (Right before their christmas party, no less!) this past December. And there has been belt tightening all around.

Nine? Wow... Now for some perspective:
Nortel has announced a total of 52,000 layoffs in the 18 months prior to September 2002. Lucent has turfed 50,910 and Motorola Inc. 42,910.

The bottom line is: in Feb 2002, 90% of law school graduates of 2001 were employed. 57.8% of them obtained their first job in private practice.

> But lets not forget that the $125 is for specialized LARGE FIRM lawyers ONLY.

Recent graduates are not "specialized". Also, the article states:
"Although salaries at large firms generally did not increase beyond the $125,000 level, the increasing frequency of salaries at this level widened the salary differential between private and public sector jobs." (emphasis mine)

Even if ignore the $125K figure, the $90K median in private practice is still impressive.

> Also, they work 60-80 hours a week!

Source please!

According to this article: "The typical Philadelphia lawyer works about 51 hours per week".
Another article (sorry, lost the source) describes lawyers that are expected to generate 2000 billable hours/year as being severely overworked.

Also, the fact that lawyers bill their clients for X hours, does not mean that they actually worked that amount of time.

> To recap- 1- they are graduates who are probably older than you who are NOT KIDS

According to the survey, most of the best paid ones are.

> they are not fresh out of college, they are fresh out of LAW school

Not being a native English speaker, I thought that the term "college" could be applied to law school as well. Would the term "fresh out of university" be more acceptable?

> with another 100k+ debt, who will have to work at least 60 hours a week.

Source please!

>If they have it so great- why aren't YOU going to law school?!

What makes you think that my personal reasons for not going to law school have any bearing on the facts of the case?

Now let's look at the latest study from 2001-2002.

A summary is available here and a PDF with more info and charts is here.

Some interesting points from the summary:

* Of those graduates whose employment status was known, 90% were employed as of February 15, 2002

Remember, we are talking about the Class of 2001. 90% got employed fresh out of college. During a recession. Not bad, eh?

* Of graduates known to be employed, 57.8% obtained their first job in a law firm. Employment in business was 11.3% and Public service jobs accounted for 27.6%

The lawyers we're talking about are in the first group. Let's see what the article says about them...

* 62% of employed graduates age 20-25 entered private practice and private sector medians are higher - $90,000 in private practice

We are talking about kids (age 20-25) fresh out of college, earning $80K on their first job in 2001/2002. I wonder how hat compares to B.Sc. geeks...

* About 71% of the 29,118 jobs for which timing of offer was reported were obtained before graduation. One in six jobs was obtained after graduation but before bar results; the remaining 12% were obtained after bar results were issued.

Everybody loves them.

And now, the punchline:

Although salaries at large firms generally did not increase beyond the $125,000 level, the increasing frequency of salaries at this level widened the salary differential between private and public sector jobs. (emphasis mine)

Fresh out of college, during an economic downturn... Poor kids!

Now let's look at the latest study from 2001-2002.

A summary is available here and a PDF with more info and charts is here.

Some interesting points from the summary:

* Of those graduates whose employment status was known, 90% were employed as of February 15, 2002

Remember, we are talking about the Class of 2001. 90% got employed fresh out of college. During a recession. Not bad, eh?

* Of graduates known to be employed, 57.8% obtained their first job in a law firm. Employment in business was 11.3% and Public service jobs accounted for 27.6%

The lawyers we're talking about are in the first group. Let's see what the article says about them...

* 62% of employed graduates age 20-25 entered private practice and private sector medians are higher - $90,000 in private practice

We are talking about kids (age 20-25) fresh out of college, earning $80K on their first job in 2001/2002. I wonder how hat compares to B.Sc. geeks...

* About 71% of the 29,118 jobs for which timing of offer was reported were obtained before graduation. One in six jobs was obtained after graduation but before bar results; the remaining 12% were obtained after bar results were issued.

Everybody loves them.

And now, the punchline:

Although salaries at large firms generally did not increase beyond the $125,000 level, the increasing frequency of salaries at this level widened the salary differential between private and public sector jobs. (emphasis mine)

Fresh out of college, during an economic downturn... Poor kids!

2001-2002 data

Note that the median salary for first-year associates is close to or over $100K at large firms, depending on where you draw the line for "large". Even small firms have a substantial number of 6 figure salaries to get a median of $50K or $75K. Does everyone get that? No, but the lawyers are doing far better than the chemists and programmers for whom we have such a pressing "need".

Also, the H1B program does apply to these fields.

It does, and I misspoke. But while that's true in theory, in reality it overwhelmingly targets tech fields.