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To Be Or Not To Be A CET?
maxdamage asks: "After reading an earlier Ask Slashdot article and the responses, I am very worried about my future career plans. This fall I am going into CET, which is essentially a cross between a CS and an Electrical Engineering degree. According to these responses, CS majors are doomed to spend their lives waiting tables. Does a computer related engineering degree give hope or should I change to a more general engineering program, before its too late?"
Here is the short answer if you are looking for big money IPOs and have little interest in computing technologies above and beyond that then don't do it. If you have a real passion for how computers work both hardware and software then the CET degree is for you. Jobs are to be had but employers are wising up to the flakes that have plagued the industry for the past 10+ years.
I'm assuming your talking about the DeVry University program and as they are local I can only tell you my experiences in the Dallas area. They are profit motivated, the recruiters get paid commission (CET/EET/Bio are the most expensive programs), and they have a few teachers who ought to be elsewhere, their registration system blows rhinos. If you read all that and thought so I just want to learn then I would say don't worry any more about it and just go for it you will be glad you did.
10 years from now, the last thing you want to do is realize you majored in a subject you don't like and you followed a career path that doesn't suit you. Don't major based on the pay scale of job opportunities -- major based solely on what you want to be doing in 10 years. Choose a major and a career path that will make you happy, and you will rise above the pack.
If all you are interested in is money (which some people find an enjoyable pursuit), then you are in the wrong field. Get a law degree, accounting degree, or a business degree. Those tend to work with a lot of money, and they never have a short supply of it. No matter where our world goes, we'll always need lawyers, accountants, and businesspeople.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
If you have CS experience than the degree could get you past the resume screening. If not than expect alot of helpdesk (if there are any left in the US).
I would closely consider these articles Here that deal with freelance tech support work. They were posted on slashdot withing the last year. I learned alot from them.
I can speak from experience that in an area with one of the highest IT unemployment rates than I have never been without a job. The last year has shown nothing but success.
Why? Because of my experience and my quality work. I spend a good 30% of my work cleaning up messes from so-called 'computer guys' and college grads that after however many years and however much money cannot troubleshoot a dead powersupply and fix everything with Norton System Works.
If you dont have any experience and you took the classes because of the ITT Tech commercials than you better supplement your degree with something.
Good Luck!
Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
And also, no degree will provide a guarantee of success.
The pluses and minuses have a lot more to do with your ability to get along with other people, your ability to think through problems properly, and your willingness to do the things you are asked to do.
Ultimately, I think that studying and working within two obscurely related disciplines will make your skills more valuable and usable though. Whether that's CS and EE though - the relationship is perhaps too obvious. CS and CE might be a more worthwhile choice right now.
If you hope to be making decent money in the ensuing years, you've basically got two choices. One is to get a service oriented career -- like a mechanic or a plumber, or anything that requires your presence. Alternatively, you can own a business of some sort. Either way, keep in mind that any job that can be done somewhere else cheaper will be . This does include just about any kind of engineering degree, too, except for maybe onsite work. Your best bet if you're looking for a career with decent money is a trade that requires physical presence or a management/business-ownership path.
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
According to this link, the increase in number of skilled jobs is going to be really high by the year 2008. I read the actual article when it came out in the magazine and figures it mentioned(not mentioned in the linked article) indicated that the highest job increase in the top 10 cities mentioned in the said article we predominantly tech jobs. Cities like Washington DC and Austin, TX projected a near 100% increase in jobs. So getting into CET may not be that bad after all given the time you would be done with it. Good luck
Move to the country, and eat you a lotta peaches.
Short of that, think about what kind of career you want, and what companies hire people that do what you want to do. Call said companies (or e-mail, whatever), and ask the people there what would be most useful.
But trust me on the peaches.
..please don't steal our jobs too!
I have degrees in both Electronics and computer network systems. Unfortunately, finding a job in either field seems to be rather difficult. Then again, I live in a state that was by far one of the hardest hit in the recession. I'm open for relocation but I haven't had much luck. I'm thinking about starting my own company because between the economy sucking for so long and employers playing games, I'm tired of messing with it.
For things like EET and CET, the "T" stands for technology. It's an Engineering [i]Technology[/i] degree, not an engineering degree. Now you could go up higher beyond a bachelor degree to a masters degree in engineering. Then you could take the test to be a certified engineer in your state. But a technology degree deals with things on a more hands on, technical level. It's applied science. Engineering, on the other hands, veers toward the more theoretical aspect. Example, Engineering Technology emphasizes how to use an equation to solve a problem. The equation's origins are irrelevent. But Engineering would actually derive that equation and seeks its origins.
My employer looks at a number of things that are not related your GPA, which school you went to, etc., when looking at new college grads:
1. Work ethic - are you willing to take responsibility for getting your work done, asking questions when you don't know something, willing to contribute when you have a good idea?
2. Ability to work in a team - we don't have any individual projects. Work with the team, try to get along with your co-workers.
3. language skills - do you speak a second language? In the industry in which I'm employed, a second language is very helpful, our customers are from all over the northern Hemisphere. A willingness to travel goes along with the language skills.
4. "business common sense" - like it or not, we're all in this for a profit. The path to this is keeping customers happy while making common sense business decisions.
It's my bet that if you can exhibit a number of these skills after you finish your BS degree, you should have no problem with getting a decent job. So while working through your CET degree, look for opportunities to improve your skills in these areas.
"Choose a major and a career path that will make you happy, and you will rise above the pack."
Become a farmer. No one complains about them, and we certainly can't be outsourced. Plus you will be in touch with your roots (so to speak). People will be coming to you, TO YOU, to buy things. And yes farming is a very technical field, despite all the "image" in the media e.g. dumb hicks.
"No matter where our world goes, we'll always need lawyers, accountants, and businesspeople."
The same applies moreso to being a farmer (or rancher if that's your thing). All the above are you. You're your lawyer (within reason), accountant, and you most certainly are a businessman. So come on down, sit a spell, drink some moonshine, and we can talk about your new career.
"The pluses and minuses have a lot more to do with your ability to get along with other people, your ability to think through problems properly, and your willingness to do the things you are asked to do."
Hmmm. I guess I can atribute my year and a half of unemployment to...mentally, and physically abusing my coworkers. Getting confused when the boss said to put slot, A into tab B. And not killing my back when ordered to do so.
Yup, I can see waiting tables in MY future.
"Then again, I live in a state that was by far one of the hardest hit in the recession. I'm open for relocation but I haven't had much luck. I'm thinking about starting my own company because between the economy sucking for so long and employers playing games, I'm tired of messing with it."
Welcome to my boat. You paddle on the left, I'll take the right. My state (Indiana) has been hit hard as well, plus all the games as you've said (irritating ain't it?). Starting a business seems to be a good idea, but which one?
Remember the late 1990s? Yeah, those years where the guy with a psychology degree got a $100,000/yr job at a .com company because "his skills were relevant to how the company developed its web site" or some such crud? Those days are gone.
As software and computer engineering matures and the industry grows (yes, this is arguable right now, but over the next 20 to 40 years I have no doubts it will grow), the primary differentiator between you and the next guy for obtaining a job in CS/CE fields will be tangible skills.
That said, just about the only person that can really predict what the economy will look like 4 to 5 years from now (when you look for a job) is Alan Greenspan. There are other posts that say "do what you love" and I tend to agree with this. Money isn't everything.
For the record, I did the same thing you are starting - a CS/ECE double. I also got the job I always wanted.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
http://www.mwcc.mass.edu/catalog/cet.html
I was discouraged by so many people (even my own Uni!) when I went into IT 125 years ago that it was not funny. All of them were wrong of course.
Look, doom scenarios are normaly wrong, what you read here is mostly innacurate tosh, specially when it comes to outsourcing and levels of unemployment.
Only the bitter and unemployed have the time to rant, all the others are too busy making a living.
Success is combined with a lot of luck, of which you have no control.
So study whatever you want, enjoy it, and drop the idea that what you learn will somehow 100% influence what you earn.
There are people with no education whatsoever who became millionares for having one good idea or for being in the right place at the right time.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I'm happy, I have a beautiful fiancee, I just finished a 4 year term as Art Director for a software company and I'm currently bidding on several large projects while waiting for the right company to find my resume. I've never found it hard to find interesting and lucrative work to do. Having an open and active mind and a willingness to apply found knowledge is all you really need in this world of ours.
If there is one thing you absolutely need to learn early in life is how to learn, how to find the information you need, how to comprehend and apply that information and how to express to others, in a language and terminology that they appreciate, the total of your learning and knowledge.
GO learn how to do these things and get a degree, any degree, if you want to be able to prove that you are capable of them without having to demonstrate them. Then go and apply for jobs you think are interesting or lucrative. If you apply for enough jobs of this sort you will find one that appeals to you. Do you really care if it uses all the skills you learned in college? Most of those skills will be nearly obsolete in 5 years. The skills that won't be obsolete are the ones concerning how to learn. You can always teach yourself how to do any job. Just remember that it will take you a year or two of study to really understand that new job well enough to earn money at it. Plan ahead.
Personally I think people should change jobs significantly every 5 or 6 years. Start in CS, move to Marketing, switch to engineering and manufacturing, run your own business for a while, teach at a community college, buy a farm, fly a corporate jet, become a paralegal... why not. None of them are really that difficult but they do take some specialized knowledge to do them well, probably about 2 years of serious study will teach you what you need to know for any of them.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Take every opportunity you can to get to know people in the industry. Start by joining the student branch of the IEEE. Go to the local meetings.
When I was young, being a radio amateur opened doors everywhere.
If your program has a final year project, use it as a chance to work with industry. Talk to engineers. Find a back burner project that someone really wants to do but doesn't have the time.
The posters who suggested that you take something else, like business, were right! People in business generally have better people skills than people in engineering. That gets you jobs. Take a marketing course.
I originally earned an EE degree in '87, then returned to school for a CS degree in '92 while working. Even back then, I found that hardware was boring as hell without the intelligence that could be realized through software.
Pure CS folks have a lot of difficulty communicating with HW and EE's tend to write crap code or end up with very tedious jobs.
The combination opens up a whole realm of opportunities such as autonomous vehicles, home automation, simulation. It's F'ing great!
As for a career choice, there is only one answer - Do what you enjoy and be agile. We can only imagine what the next 20 years will bring.
Often, I have to tell my employer that this stuff is hard work, If they knew work was fun, I'de get paid squat! Geccie
Don't knock waiting tables. A good waiter can make good money. Perhaps not quite as much in the long run as the degreed guy, but the waiter starts at full wages earlier. $60,000 a year is reasonable for a good waiter to take home, without working full time. (just get the lunch crowd in a busness area)
It takes the right personality to do it though. I'd never make a good waiter as I don't have the right people skills. People will wait in line to have the best waiters serve their table, even though others in the resteraunt are free to serve now. Note, other countries don't have the same tips system that the US has, I don't know if this applys there.
For many jobs the paper the degree is printed on is worth more than the words on it. That is the company won't hire you without the degree, but it doesn't matter which one you get. So get the one you want, and then find a job.
> According to these responses, CS majors are
> doomed to spend their lives waiting tables. Does a
> computer related engineering degree give hope or
> should I change to a more general engineering
> program, before its too late?
There is always room for another good engineer. If you take your education seriously and apply yourself, you'll be able to differentiate yourself from your peers. Then you won't be stuck waiting tables.
There is always room for another motivated engineer. If you take a job out of school that isn't quite the job you imagined, but are agressive in pursuing every opportunity at work - you volunteer to finish off that project that no one wants to do, you offer to lead the project thats the opposite of glamorous - you'll differentiate yourself from your peers. Then you won't be stuck waiting tables.
The world is always lacking honest, competent people who will go the extra mile to get work done. If you're one of those people, there will be work for you in the current economy. It might not be the job you want, or even the one you were trained for, but there will be one.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
One of my acquaintances here is majoring in Computer Engineering, but he works for the CS department. He's got a MS internship over the summer... Of course he's a damned sellout, but the jobs are out there. Don't pursue another major just because you are concerned about finances.
As I pointed out elsewere. Farmers diversify into other crops, or meats e.g. ostrich meat, strawberries. Heck, some farmers are going into fish farming. I wouldn't recommend the professhion for anyone afraid of hard work. And the answer to your question is yes, but then any suggestion of going into business is going to involve financial risk. The question is how much risk can one handle?
I'm graduating this year with an EE/CS degree, and I don't think I'd do anything differently except take harder classes and get started earlier. (I used to be CS and switched to EE/CS my junior year.) I personally think that the degree actually affords you more opportunities, because you have both an understanding of EE and CS even if neither is truly in-depth. I personally focused more on CS and garnered most of my skills outside of the classroom anyway. The only huge problem I've run into is explaining what the major is and why I chose to do it. For us, it's extremely flexible, and you can really learn whatever you want in detail. As a result, I know practically nothing about, say, operating systems, but I do not a ton about computer graphics and digital design. And, I do have a good job lined up for after graduation. The opportunities are out there. You just have to work hard finding them. Also, don't limit yourself to just EE or CS-related positions, unless that's all you want. EE/CS majors are high in demand in other fields as well including consulting, management, anything quantitative, etc.
I love computers, I love tinkering, I'd love to get a part-time IT job while I'm still in my junior year of high-school, but most of all, I'd love to think there is a market for my skill. After observing what my father has done, I've decided that a degree in EE will suffice for a wide range of jobs. My dad's title has changed from Electrical Engineer to Senior Engineer, to Systems Engineer in the last 5 years. If you have a broad skill base, you should be able to find a job of some sort that you like.
Karma: Good, or bust!
I graduated with a degree in Music composition and performance, which I very much enjoyed. I took other classes all across the board, trying to get everything I could out of college. When I graduated I got a job as a Java developer (based mostly on non-academic programming projects I did). Now I'm doing quite comfortably.
I may get an MBA a bit down the road, since it would make a nice complement to my programming experience (and what I've already learned about how business works, on the job)... but the point here is that if you're bright and hard-working and show some initiative, you can get *something*, which will give you experience, which is what most employers want.
Yes, degrees matter (and can affect your salary), but having or not having one doesn't doom you to failure.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
The people in that other Ask Slashdot took the employee, safe route. There was one business degree respondent who was working a help desk. Many of them had "what level salary to ask for" down to a science.
These people are people who will never be anything more than helpdesk or Cobol-cubicle material, especially when their tone suggests they believe they're living "the good life." How about that fellow who thought he was eating $1000/mo on $150 of onions, cheap bread, meat sauce, and melted-down cubes of chocolate!
There is a reason those people can't find better jobs: they expect nothing better, and strive for nothing better, because they're all unwilling to take any risk and make an honest go of opportunity.
Be careful their bitterness doesn't sway your opinion of what to expect in your future career--because you'll get NO MORE THAN YOU EXPECT. You'll NEVER MAKE ANY MORE THAN YOU EXPECT TO MAKE.
You may make less, but you'll *NEVER* make more.
So here's my advice: do what you love. People recognize other people who share a passion, or who are passionate about what they do. It's inspiring to have people like that around.
Consider--would you really want to work around someone who bitches all the time that the "best" jobs are stolen by overseas low-paid workers? How depressing? Would you want to work next to someone who had no ambition, no aspirations, and no willingness to take even the modicum of risk necessary to build and sell something novel on their own?
Makes me sad to see someone claiming that $20/hr is worth making a career out of. But, ah well. I suppose most people can't see past their immediate surroundings.
In two weeks I will earn the first part of an accelerated Masters degree in Computer and Electrical Engineering from The University of Oklahoma.
I would recommend something similar, instead of the pure CS route, personally. I may be getting a EE degree, but my Masters Thesis will be the design of a software application.
As for my employment opportunities, while I'm waiting for the Fall semester to start, a very large company in the IT Hardware / Software design field has hired me for a summer job that pays 25 dollars and change per hour, with overtime, which works out to be a little over $50,000 per year. After graduation from OU, it's pretty much guaranteed that I'll join that company in a system-level engineering role.
Maybe it's just me, but I've had a VERY easy time finding a job with that combination of hardware and software engineering skills.
Now, I'm not sure what "CET" stands for, but I sincerely hope it's not some sort of tradesman degree. Engineering, or rather system design and implementation, is where the money is, because this is where the difficult problems are solved. I'm going to guess that "T" might stand for "Technology" or something similar -- in that case, you might just as well stick with your normal Bachelor's of Science classes and go get a 2-year degree from ITT Tech, and watch it become obsolete in 5 years.
With engineering, you might (depending on the quality of your school) learn about the underlying principles of a given problem, and how to apply certain solution methods and thought processes to different situations. This, I think, is the most valuable part of the degree. With these skills, you can keep up with the pace of the technology, so when the new PCI standard, for example, comes out, you can bring yourself up to speed on how it works, rather than clinging to what's currently out there.
I hope this made some sense to you. This was posted anonymously to protect the identity of my employer.
I won't post at 1 AM anymore. Troll on! My grandmother would be ashamed of me.
Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
I have a BS in CET from a unsystem like college network in NY. If you already have your associates degree in CS or EET, keep an eye on what classes transfer over and what you have to take. When I transferred to the college, I ended up taking classes I already had. I should fought to get out of those classes and taken a lot more electives that would have broaded my background. My biggest mistake was that I could have finished off a CS degree with additional 20 credit, but I wanted the hell out of the place and some of the people. Ooops.
As to what I do now, I am computer baby sitter for a company where users have pc skills if them can play soliataire and find the printer icon. Going is all the embedded knowledge I gained after 7 years. The one big advantage to the place I work is that I have junk equipment that I tinker with and have learned most of what I know about Linux, Solaris and *BSD. Boss doesn't care unless I bring down the network and I get to be the obscure technology guy (non Microsoft) on the staff.
Just be careful and think with each class. A few prayers that things pick up wouldn't be bad either
Anyways, my point is, Be Careful; otherwise, you are just another lamer with a fake engineering degree.
My advice to you would be to drop the whole CET idea and get a real CS or a real engineering degree. They will be worth a whole lot more in the long run. Or do a dual major with CS/EE and NOT a CET. A CET will cover the basics for CS and EE, but nothing more, you will have lots of general concepts but little hard core, real knowlege. Most high ranked Universities don't offer CET programs, the only ones I know that offer things like CET are 2 year programs, mid-low ranked state schools or ITT Tech trade school type places. A real technical institution like MIT/RPI/CMU etc will only offer REAL enginneering and REAL computer science. Not some strange cross CET that really doesn't explore the nuances of either.
Personally I have a dual major with CS and Electronic Art/Communication. Again, I would highly reccomend a dual major over a major that claims to combine two others. It will be more work but it will pay off in the long run.
People may talk about the market being bad, whatever. Any real engineer from a real university will get a job if he has some work experience and some common sense. I'm sorry, but most people I know that whine about not getting jobs should choose another field as they're not qualified. Notice I said "most" not "all." In any event, they tell you the different engineering disciplines are different. Really, it's just a facade to get you to come to "their" program. Granted, you will learn different things. However, engineering programs are all about applying the same math and physical sciences to problems in a specific discipline, be it electrical, chemical, or mechanical. That doesn't mean some programs are harder than others. Typically, electrical and chemical tend to be up there as far as difficulty. That's OK, a lot of them fail out anyway. As we say at Rutgers, "If you can't hack it, pack it." That refers to the fact that sadly, Rutgers actually has a Packaging Engineering program. So sad, it doesn't even have a website.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Thanks for all your advice. Probably should have mentioned that I already have a CCNA and am A+ certified.
You already have 'IT' experience / qualifications - what do you want to do? I believe that a strong understanding of software is a lot harder to get than a strong understanding of hardware.
I am cautious of hybrid degrees - I would be concerned that they water down the content to pack it into the time available.
If you're passionate about hardware, go EE. If you are passionate about software, go CS. If you want a foot in both camps, you could do what I did - CS, and then buy a copy of Horowitz and Hill "The Art Of Electronics". It's got enough content to start you on your way - and there are a truckloads of books in any library that will take you from there!
Any course of study you follow with an aim of making piles of money in a single area of limited scope puts you at risk of failure because of some cyclical swing or technology shift. Diversifying your knowledge will prepare you to deal with anything that life throws at you. This is the way it works in the animal kingdom, and I think in human society as well.
This is not a put-down of engineering or of any other course of study. I majored in Spanish and endured a lot of jokes about how I would have to work in McDonald's (long before Spanish became the dominant language there). But I've survived so far.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell