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"Yeah, Opera can do it" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326) Yes, they can & HAVE: OPERA PASSES ACID3 TEST FIRST:

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test

AND, Opera's fsster than its competitors, OVERALL on the most OS platforms (since it is multiplatform, like FF but NOT IE (or as uch so in IE that is, since it runs on MacOS X too, but NOT Linux/*NIX (even on Javascript processing too (as well as commonly being accepted as "the world's fastest webbrowser program" in Opera, on ALL/other fronts, evidenced below in legitimate testing))):

BROWSER SPEED TEST COMPARISON:

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html

JAVASCRIPT PROCESSING SPEED TEST:

http://nontroppo.org/timer/kestrel_tests/

(RECENTLY/HOWEVER - This category of Javascript processing speed MAY has FireFox in 1st place, currently, in THIS category (for now that is), & via their FF3 beta, IIRC!))

AND, Opera's more secure also:

SECUNIA DATA ON BROWSER SECURITY (dated 03/28/2008):

Opera 9.26 security advisories @ SECUNIA (0% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/10615/?task=advisories

FireFox 2.0.0.13 security advisories @ SECUNIA (18% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/12434/

IE 7 (latest cumulative update from MS) security advisories @ SECUNIA (35% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/12366/

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"but isn't going to release the capability -- wonderful." - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326) The development temn @ Opera, WAIT until something is done, & done right - unlike their competition, as is evidneced by the amount of security holes & vulnerabilities present in them (including Mozilla variants AND Ms IE) noted below:

(By the way - IF you read the above URL? The Opera team will be releasing the build this week... look for one past nightly snapshot .9841!)

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"Safari 3.1 is a full release" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26 Yea, full alright - SAFARI IS FULL OF SECURITY HOLES:

Safari 3.1 For Windows Violates Its Own EULA, Vulnerable To Hacks

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/27/129236

(That is VERY recent also, like the past 1-2 days - FAR from "stale" news, that above - granted, NOW it's patched, but the point's there!)

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"and Firefox is a publicly available beta release" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26 That is again, FULL of holes, per the evidences above (& not as fast as Opera is on ALL possibly tested fronts, as noted in ths URL below):

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"In my book Opera is losing the race. The race is silly, but Opera is still losing" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326) Based on ALL of the data above, which IS easily verified & from reputable sources? I'd have to say your book needs revision...

APK

"Yeah, Opera can do it" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326) Yes, they can & HAVE: OPERA PASSES ACID3 TEST FIRST:

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test

AND, Opera's fsster than its competitors, OVERALL on the most OS platforms (since it is multiplatform, like FF but NOT IE (or as uch so in IE that is, since it runs on MacOS X too, but NOT Linux/*NIX (even on Javascript processing too (as well as commonly being accepted as "the world's fastest webbrowser program" in Opera, on ALL/other fronts, evidenced below in legitimate testing))):

BROWSER SPEED TEST COMPARISON:

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/browserSpeed.html

JAVASCRIPT PROCESSING SPEED TEST:

http://nontroppo.org/timer/kestrel_tests/

(RECENTLY/HOWEVER - This category of Javascript processing speed MAY has FireFox in 1st place, currently, in THIS category (for now that is), & via their FF3 beta, IIRC!))

AND, Opera's more secure also:

SECUNIA DATA ON BROWSER SECURITY (dated 11/29/2007):

Opera 9.26 security advisories @ SECUNIA (0% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/10615/?task=advisories

FireFox 2.0.0.13 security advisories @ SECUNIA (18% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/12434/

IE 7 (latest cumulative update from MS) security advisories @ SECUNIA (35% unpatched):

http://secunia.com/product/12366/

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"but isn't going to release the capability -- wonderful." - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326) The development temn @ Opera, WAIT until something is done, & done right - unlike their competition, as is evidneced by the amount of security holes & vulnerabilities present in them (including Mozilla variants AND Ms IE) noted below:

(By the way - IF you read the above URL? The Opera team will be releasing the build this week... look for one past nightly snapshot .9841!)

----------

"Safari 3.1 is a full release" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26 Yea, full alright - SAFARI IS FULL OF SECURITY HOLES:

Safari 3.1 For Windows Violates Its Own EULA, Vulnerable To Hacks

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/27/129236

(That is VERY recent also, like the past 1-2 days - FAR from "stale" news, that above)

----------

"and Firefox is a publicly available beta release" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26 That is again, FULL of holes, per the evidences above (& not as fast as Opera is on ALL possibly tested fronts, as noted in ths URL below):

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"In my book Opera is losing the race. The race is silly, but Opera is still losing" - by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday March 26, @05:23PM (#22874326)

Based on ALL of the data above, which IS easily verified & from reputable sources? I'd have to say your book needs revision...

APK

Get it here, presumably next week. Current 9.5 weeklies aren't that bad either, though.

Update: 03/26 21:21 GMT by Z : Safari is now at 100%, apparently, with Safari close behind at 98%.

Looks like someone wasn't reading what they were writing. The links are right though.

100 already! (if they released nighty build we would have this epic build already :( ): http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test

The opera Desktop Dev blog claims full compliance now. http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test

Newer builds pass with 100% http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test

http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test opera wins

I don't believe you! I made some tests in almost ideal situation, all browsers with default setting and only one page opened. Firefox 3 in fact uses MORE memory than Firefox 2.x.x.x and Opera still is the best. See my results here: http://my.opera.com/patkoscsaba/blog/show.dml/1820080

Perhaps widgets?

http://widgets.opera.com/

Here is why:

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/index.dml

Opera files antitrust complaint with the EU

The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards. Opera has requested the Commission to take the necessary actions to compel Microsoft to give consumers a real choice and to support open Web standards in Internet Explorer.

How do they stop it? My cheap (Nokia UMTS) phone lets me run any software I want. Well, obviously not any software - it needs to be software written for the phone's OS, which is Symbian (S60). Please can you point me to the FireFox S60 download? I don't see it anywhere on the FireFox download site. In contrast, I can easily grab the trial version of Opera (the phone came with an older version) and the latest firmware from Nokia includes a browser based on WebKit.

You say that, and yet there are plenty of proprietary binaries available for Linux. Many distros have huge repositories of "non-free" stuff. Plenty of proprietary vendors make Linux binaries available (e.g. nVidia binary driver, Opera, Skype, etc. See also this list, much of which is distributed in binary-only form).

Yes, the vendor will probably only pre-compile binaries for the most popular architectures (32-bit x86 being the main one), and only for the most popular packaging formats (deb and rpm). But really that covers the vast majority of Linux users anyway.

Yes, it's a pain for the vendor to compile/package 2-8 versions instead of just one, but it's hardly the insurmountable obstacle you make it out to be.

"I represent that!" But thanks man, I'll tell my bro.

What a stupid headline by /. -- from the Register we expect grocery-line headlines, but ScuttleMonkey is an ass for repeating it.

If people will click through, Opera does not screech, but Claudio Santambrogio does whine and shake his finger a little on the Opera Developer Blog.
http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/02/14/9-26-coming-soon

He is correctly taken to task for that in the Comments, and has not responded. The question remains: what was the nature of the Mozilla communication?

Near as I can see, all we have is Moz DID tell Opera (thank you Moz) and then proceeded to release their own advisory THAT DID NOT MENTION OPERA AT ALL.

I mean come on Claudio, what's your beef with that? Looks like you got a very decent heads-up there. Please explain your position, or apologize. Behavior like that will just encourage Moz folks to skip telling you in future, and that's bad for both of us Opera users.

Uh, if you actually took a look at the thread in question, you'd see that Microsoft has notified them in the past. Of course, since the issue is relevant to Firefox and Seamonkey too, it isn't as bad as many people in that thread make it out to be/interpret it. Cause Mozilla is of course allowed to fix problems with their software as soon as they want and as they see fit.

Anyone else read the comments on the Opera blog? Pretty embarassing stuff.
http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/02/14/9-26-coming-soon

"Well those Mozilla guys think that openness is the answer to everything. :-/"

"Mozilla never knows when to keep their mouths shut...
Of course, considering that there are active exploits for Firefox, it's safe to say that the malware authors already knew about this security vulnerability."

"I'm not surprised about the Mozilla Corporation. Maybe they pretend they never have security issues with their code? There are still security issues with Firefox and with *any* software developed by humans, so they should be more humble and responsible. They're not harming Opera Software ASA, they're putting the Opera users in jeopardy, this is not a good way to have them to use Firefox. This is evil, irresponsible and antiethical at the very least. Shame on Mozilla!"

"Nevermind, guys, let the Mozilla devs have more secure browser for at least few days (-;E"

From the Opera developers' description it appears that the Mozilla foundation could have handled things more professionally - Opera was only notified the day before a public advisory was published, and since that time the Mozilla foundation have opened most of the bug reports containing exploitation details to the general public. Judging from the emoticons on Opera's blog, the latter action by the Mozilla foundation is the primary issue here, not that they published the advisory.

Good point, but I suppose that's because Yahoo! doesn't own a crappy machine translation subsidiary. When they partnered with Opera Mini (the browser version for mobile devices) they removed Google not only as the default search engine but also as an option from the drop-down - and then put Yahoo! Search in its place. I wouldn't complain if they replaced stuff with something of equal or better value, but this "it's ours, so you have to use it no matter how crappy it is" attitude kinda pisses me off.

Please note that Seamonkey is also being patched, something that people tend to gloss over.

Of course, Opera is also available for download, if you're wanting to avoid the bug that desperately.

Certainly did!

http://slashdot.org/articles/03/02/14/1256231.shtml?tid=133
http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2003/02/14/

Unlike a great many technology companies, Opera ASA have a superb sense of humour, and managed to go mad and get even ($12m payout from MS). Shame that the download no longer seems to be available, but pretty sure I have a copy on my hard drive somewhere.

IMHO, "cellphone thin client developed" isn't really ground-breaking. Opera Mini is an example of prior art. Now, granted, it ain't supercomputer-like, but still, the concept is similar...

Linux is Linux is Linux

While that is the case superficially, every release of every distro comes with different versions of the various shared libraries. That leaves the following possibilities:

1. Ship software as source and expect customers to compile it
2. Provide source and get popular enough so that the distros do the compilation for you
3. Provide the software yourself, and pick some subset of all Linux distros/versions to support

Note that for Windows you can provide a single setup.exe and it will run on everything from Windows 98 through Vista.

Here are some examples of Linux applications:

• Opera where they pick a sizable number and versions of distros
• pidgin CentOS/RHEL/Fedora
• skype where they have 8 variations
• Oracle supports RHEL, SUSE Linux Enterprise Server and Asianux

Basically a closed source vendor has to pick a limited number of distros and versions for logistical reasons. You'll also notice that they typically only support x86 processors, but it is rare indeed to see something like PowerPC Linux support. The Linux Standards Base was supposed to address this, but for example they said RPM is the standard packaging mechanism. That annoys anyone using Debian, Slackware etc. If they had picked Deb as the standard then it would have annoyed Redhat/Fedora/Suse etc instead.

So in summary, Linux is only Linux is only Linux if you provide your software as source. Even then, if the distros don't package you then you'll still end up supporting a subset of all versions of all distros of all processors.

Opera released a version just for the OLPC project: Opera OLPC Edition

On the other hand, the physical structure of a record limits the shenanigans you can do with compression. On a CD, the loudness wars has continued at full speed until, in some cases, we're listening to nothing more than modulated noise (less RMS than a sine wave).

Is it then surprising that some people say vinyl sounds better? No, but the reason isn't some magic ability of vinyl. A digital format with automatic Replay Gain (or something similar) would stop the loudness wars (since any dynamic range compression would be compensated by a decrease in volume from the RG check) and sound just as good, but there's no such standard.

... Opera's new features are being copied:
http://www.opera.com/products/link/

http://www.opera.com/products/desktop/next/ Although I will give Mozilla points for the session sync, that's something that Opera isn't doing(though to be honest, I generally wouldn't want my home session synced at work...)

Security-wise, although I can see that many people would like any stored data encrypted so the service provider can't make use of it, that'd mean the user's computer would need to encrypt/decrypt it client-side. If you want to be able to access information from a bog-standard HTML interface (which I believe Opera Link allows), the service provider needs to be able to decrypt your information server-side.

You can get it here

http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2007/04/13/wii-browser-out-but-why-flash-7-and-not-8-or-9

Even better, you can use a Flash-blocking CSS stylesheet to do the job: http://my.opera.com/shoust/blog/show.dml/98313

You can configure it that way, it's just not nearly intuitive:

http://my.opera.com/SirJeff/blog/2007/03/22/close-tabs-similar-to-firefox

Opera is excellent, especially in regards to its small footprint, standards support and speed. The big gotcha, though, is still its closed source nature. So I don't generally recommend it except in situations like that one (with 128MB RAM) where it's the only appropriate option.

However, that does not mean that it has to be difficult to install. You can install Opera from a repository and let APT, or a graphical front end like Adept or Synaptic, do all the work.

I'd like to see Opera find some kind of open source licensing model, even if it is a dual licensing plan like with Qt or MySQL. Alternately, I'd like to see Firefox trim down further. After all, it got started to avoid the everything+kitchensink problem of Mozilla.

Opera sues MS mainly for Standards compliance just a week ago and this "We pass Acid test" story comes out.

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

Too much for co-incidence. Also, it seems a billion dollar company who has more people to make coffee than Opera+Mozilla developers combined CAN produce a standards compliant browser down to Acid2 test. Why IE 8 and not IE 7? Why now?

The whole idea of the browser selecting when to enforce the standards makes it not very supportive of the standards. Opera lets you play with settings that make ti disobey the standard, but that's the user's control, which is different.

All the popular browsers do that. If the author of the web page goes through the trouble of specifying a correct doctype, the browser will follow the standards. If the doctype is missing or incorrect the browser gives up and tries its best. By default Opera uses the doctype to choose quirks or standards mode just like all the rest, but it is the only one I know of that lets the user force standards or quirks mode.

See here for how Opera does it. Here for Firefox. Here for some old info on Konqueror. And here for more general info.

"IE is mediocre. FF memory leaks. Opera for the win. I wish FF or Opera had native 64-bit though."

I love Opera, especially 9.5. I can't wait for it to become stable!
Opera actually does have 64bit versions of Opera for Linux and FreeBSD (9.5 only though).

See here: http://www.opera.com/support/search/view/842/

Also, Opera was apparently calling for MS to separate out Trident with clearly defined APIs so that not only the IE application but also the rendering engine could be replaced by OEMs.

Uh, no they are not.

Opera requests the Commission to implement two remedies to Microsoft's abusive actions. First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop.

From here: http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

There is no economic reason why Microsoft should be forced to include competing software on its distribution kits. If the OEMs want to do that, fine! More power to them. I'm all for choice, but I would pissed as hell if I was running a software company and a competitor whined to the regulators and forced me to bundle their software with mine. Give the user the choice at the System Integration level, thats where it belongs.

Should Adobe be forced for bundle Ghostscript alongside Acrobat Reader?

First, all the users that Use IE simply because it is the default are not using Opera.

And you think that this is Microsoft's fault?

If given a choice or if OEMs are given a choice some non-zero number would choose Opera giving them greater market share and more money from contracts with search engine providers.

So you accuse me of being an apologist and then you spew this out? pot, kettle, black.

Second, MS's taking over the browser market and intentionally breaking the standards has led to the Web filled with IE-only pages that do not render properly in Opera or other compliant browsers. This makes it harder for Opera to license their browser to cell phone makers and other hardware companies. Likewise the domination of IE by unfair means has resulted in Web application lock in, providing a serious financial barrier to transition to neutral technologies. All this costs Opera hard cash.

Red Herring. Back when I did web development I specifically did browser detection for either Netscape 4 or IE4 and branched off from there. Nowadays its FF or IE, but the logic still applies. If developers are too lazy to properly code web sites for mutliple browsers thats hardly the fault of the browser developer!

No, that isn't silly at all. Charlie Manson is forced to stop killing people by being put in prison

uh no.. again, wrong argument. The argument is not whether Manson should have been put in prison or not, the argument is whether the EU can force a company to code according to another standard, which it cannot.

Sure, Opera can't read some Web pages that include either proprietary MS technologies, or broken standards (like IE's broken CSS support). That is caused directly by MS's illegal bundling coupled with their intentionally broken implementation.

Again, Red Herring. Isn't Opera one of the few browsers that can change it's user agent to be IE? Why would they do that? oh wait, thats because lazy developers haven't taken the time to properly code for other browsers!

No the sad part is that in a free market, most users would probably choose Opera or Firefox or Safari or something else and have a better user experience

Your argument falls apart exactly because of the inroads that FF has made. Firefox was in the exact same position as Opera. Now it is a recognized alternative to IE and developers do indeed target that browser (this site being a prime example). If Mozilla was able to do it (gain traction on the desktop) with having to whine to the EU, but rather proving that they have a better browser, then what the hell is Opera's problem?

Like I said in my first post, compete on Merit!

Calling me ignorant (or uneducated, take your pick) really speaks volumes about you considering you know nothing of my background

"It's difficult to spend money advertising a product when that product is free"

No, it is not. Opera is a publicly traded company with multiple revenue streams. They are not some little open-source group working out of their parents' basement. They can afford to advertise. Especially considering some of their partners partners in the desktop browser market: Adobe, SlipStream, Google, eBay, etc . Not to mention their partners in the mobile market: Casio, Nokia, Motorola, etc.

"ZoneAlarm isn't free." - I'm using the FREE version of ZoneAlarm right now.

"Opera's own press release claims they would be satisfied if IE was unbundled (notice the "and/or" in the quote in the summary above). The far more important point is web standards. I truly believe Opera is more concerned about standards than marketshare."

Really, from Opera's 3rd Quarter 2007 Financial Report (pdf): "Revenues from the Desktop segment increased 113% in 3Q07 compared to 3Q06 as global usage continues to grow."
Opera is a company with stock holders. They are out to make money just like MS.

"It's difficult to spend money advertising a product when that product is free"

No, it is not. Opera is a publicly traded company with multiple revenue streams. They are not some little open-source group working out of their parents' basement. They can afford to advertise. Especially considering some of their partners partners in the desktop browser market: Adobe, SlipStream, Google, eBay, etc . Not to mention their partners in the mobile market: Casio, Nokia, Motorola, etc.

"ZoneAlarm isn't free." - I'm using the FREE version of ZoneAlarm right now.

"Opera's own press release claims they would be satisfied if IE was unbundled (notice the "and/or" in the quote in the summary above). The far more important point is web standards. I truly believe Opera is more concerned about standards than marketshare."

Really, from Opera's 3rd Quarter 2007 Financial Report (pdf): "Revenues from the Desktop segment increased 113% in 3Q07 compared to 3Q06 as global usage continues to grow."
Opera is a company with stock holders. They are out to make money just like MS.

"It's difficult to spend money advertising a product when that product is free"

No, it is not. Opera is a publicly traded company with multiple revenue streams. They are not some little open-source group working out of their parents' basement. They can afford to advertise. Especially considering some of their partners partners in the desktop browser market: Adobe, SlipStream, Google, eBay, etc . Not to mention their partners in the mobile market: Casio, Nokia, Motorola, etc.

"ZoneAlarm isn't free." - I'm using the FREE version of ZoneAlarm right now.

"Opera's own press release claims they would be satisfied if IE was unbundled (notice the "and/or" in the quote in the summary above). The far more important point is web standards. I truly believe Opera is more concerned about standards than marketshare."

Really, from Opera's 3rd Quarter 2007 Financial Report (pdf): "Revenues from the Desktop segment increased 113% in 3Q07 compared to 3Q06 as global usage continues to grow."
Opera is a company with stock holders. They are out to make money just like MS.

Are there any Linux distributions that have Opera pre-installed?

I believe the commercial versions of SuSE and Mandriva include Opera. I know there's an apt repository for Debian-based distros, and it's included a major third-party repository for Ubuntu (can't think of the name). Plus of course they have binary packages available.

My Nokia 770 (Linux based) came with Opera. I assumed that was because Opera has a smaller footprint than Firefox (but none too small for my 64 MB RAM (and no swap) pocket computer). However, it might be that Opera was written with GTK, or had been optimized for a stylus based user interface, or something.

Opera has a version of the browser optimized for small devices. It runs the same engine, though the version is trailing a bit. (And as others have pointed out, it uses QT.)

P.S. Apologies if this shows up repeatedly. I'm getting "There was an unknown error in the submission."

Not yet: Both Opera and Firefox have prerelease builds with Ogg support already, this just proves that it will take a bit longer for Webkit to get it since it's controlled by Nokia and Apple (open source is sadly no guarantee for open standards). Just head over to http://labs.opera.com/ if you want to read more about it or try it out yourself.

Maybe instead of wasting his time with yours steps, he should just go to http://opera.com/ and install a web browser that's tested, performs well, consumes little memory, and doesn't get completely broken by such minor updates.

He already has one, he mentioned it, it's called Safari, and he's using it... he'd be wasting his time downloading yet another bloated jack-of-all-fuck browser when he could just be getting his porn in Safari instead. Your entire post was a waste of everyone's time.

That sounds like a big hassle, just because Mozilla didn't test their patch properly.

Maybe instead of wasting his time with yours steps, he should just go to http://opera.com and install a web browser that's tested, performs well, consumes little memory, and doesn't get completely broken by such minor updates.

Do you think MS will go down without a fight? Do you think that a company with almost limitless cash is going to be threatened by anything less than all-out war from the FOSS community?

I defy anyone to disprove any of my facts.

- No one is going to do anything about MS's monopoly.

- The monopoly will get worse.

- The only people who have a chance to break it are the geeks.

- Even then it would take a united effort from all of us.

I've been a Vodafone customer in the UK for eleven years now. I use a phone they didn't sell me, and have applications on it that I wrote as well as various others

Even on the phones Vodafone do sell you, features are not normally disabled; the last phone I got from them (Sony Ericsson P910i) has a ringtone downloaded direct to it from the net for free, and various applications I installed from places around the net. I don't think you could survive with a 'lock the users in' policy in Europe - there's too much competition.

Opera has had your bookmark-homepage idea for some time... It's called speed dial.

Also, Opera 9.5 (still in beta, has a few bugs but http://my.opera.com/desktopteam has more info) has a new thing called Opera Link which lets you synchronize bookmarks, speed dial, and your personal bar (like a bookmarks shortcut bar that holds other things as well) across any Opera 9.5+ browser anywhere, and gives you http://link.opera.com/ to access your bookmarks from any browser.

I've been using 9.5 at work since alpha and it is looking to be one sweet release. At home I still use the stable 9.2x branch which doesn't have Link but does have Speed Dial.

I only have Firefox around these days for the sites that don't always play nice with Opera, which are actually very very few. And I know Opera isn't open source, but they're very community-friendly and their development team is easily accessible and responsive to bugs and they produce packages for just about every major Linux distribution, as well as Mac, Windows, Solars (sparc and intel), QNX, BeOS, FreeBSD and OS/2.