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Opera Files EU Complaint Against Microsoft
A number of readers have sent word about Opera Software ASA's antitrust complaint against Microsoft filed with the EU. Here is Opera's press release on the filing. The company wants the EU to "obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop" and to "require Microsoft to follow fundamental and open Web standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities." The latter request makes this a case to watch. Will the Commissioner take the Acid2 test using IE7?
Why should Microsoft do that? It's not like you can't install another browser if you don't want. Unbundling it would mean the OS doesn't have a functioning browser (not to mention it's built-in to the OS, so removal would be only a cosmetic feat (removing the icon) not actually removing the browser). Including other browsers makes more sense, but won't it make Windows even more bloaty? Is this just a sandy vagina move, or do they have a point?
Since no publicity is bad publicity, this is a cheap way for them to shout from the rooftops "We exist, we're a better browser than IE, IE sucks!! "
Oh, and their lawsuit has merit, as well.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
From the article:
Wasn't this part of the settlement before? I often wonder why we have to see other countries doing the heavy lifting to throttle Microsoft. Microsoft lost, was set up for some pretty severe controls to be administered and lucked out with a changing of the guard and a Justice Department that lost any appetite to really control Microsoft.Also,
This one does get interesting. Maybe this is the avenue required to get Microsoft to move closer to compliance on the accepted standards. There certainly hasn't been any bending to pressures from developers.This seems like a rehash of the Netscape suit years ago. Didnt that jumpstart the initial monopoly case? Anyway I find it more interesting at this point that they want for force IE into compliance with a standard that is defined and regulated by an open assembly. I think that is more important as that will ensure that web 3.0 doesn't use mono/.net, Silverlight or some proprietary based framework that forces us back to the days when you can't go to a bank, school, work, website w/o IE.
Antitrust cases worked so well for getting WMP removed :)
Ceci n'est pas une
How am I going to download an Internet browser if my Operating System has no way of browsing the Internet?
IANAL, but I think Opera might win this war. Netscape lost a similar battle, but they couldn't leverage the power of EU like Opera can. The EU is also likely to be biased towards Opera because it's a European company (although it is Norwegian, and Norway is not a member of the EU).
On the other hand: the precedence from the media player debacle points to a possible "solution" (forcing Microsoft to release a special version without IE) which in practice means a loss to Opera. The potential buyer of such a product does not exist: He needs to be both knowledgeable about Opera and not knowledgeable enough to know how to install Opera himself.
Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
Some people actually like the browser. If microsoft had the choice of including other browsers or just not bundeling I'm pretty sure they would go with the no including one. That way they can start selling IE as its own piece of software getting them a couple bucks here and there. Think about it in these terms a typical home user is most likely to use windows. If a browser wasn't included they would have no idea how to get some free version browser like firefox. Thier only option would be to go down to the store and pick up a copy of IE. Granted I'm sure some people wouldn't buy windows if they started doing something like that but people in general are not aware of the alternatives to windows and IE. Also I enjoy Windows enough to deal with some of the problems but if they were to do something like that it would probably give me enough of a reason to start dual booting and just using windows strictly for games.
...it's the OEM. That part of the suit should be tossed immediately. Now, if MS has some highly restrictive distribution contract that stops the OEM's from installing anything else, then fine. Otherwise, that's a pointless thing to try and make MS do, since MS doesn't control what the OEM does.
Ever since Adobe sued Microsoft for bundling a PDF writer in with Office 2007, Microsoft has been pushing out a series of patches that breaks Flash Player content in IE. I'd love to see someone smack them with the equivalent of a cast iron skillet just because of how miserable they make every web developer world over.
2 cents,
QueenB.
HDGary secures my bank
Isn't this a bit too late. IE was sold with new computers shipping with Windows since 1995. And now (more than ever) Windows and IE have what appears to be a necessary/symbiotic relationship. I think in Windows 95 you could *probably* remove IE and have a functional operating system. I think that it is no longer the case.
What would be the solution/ruling? Force Microsoft to remove IE, or install every other browser by default. I'm just speculating here; please feel free to correct me or offer an alternate viewpoint.
for KDE to stop shipping with Konqueror.
Seriously, If you are selling or giving an OS, is it that bad to bundle a browser of your choosing?
If M$ bundled firefox,or opera, or even an ancient version of netscape, would there be such an uproar? This article is simply FUD.
Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who live by the gun...
I simply cannot believe this. Does anyone have a link to anything which gives reliable evidence that this is the case?
Microsoft has every right to create a web browser and integrate it into their other products. It is no fundamentally different than Konqueror being the default browser within the KDE environment. If Dell and others feel comfortable distributing **Linux**, what makes you think they wouldn't distribute Opera and Firefox if there were a demand for that? The catch is, there isn't a demand for that because the very people who would use Opera and Firefox instead of IE wouldn't have any problems installing it on their own. The people that Opera is whining about not having access to, are largely the people who think that Internet Explorer is "The Internet."
I dislike MS's monopolistic practices as much as anyone. But really, there's not much harm in bundling an OS with a browser IF they don't prevent OEMs from including other browsers or from removing the IE icon from the desktop.
Even if MS were forced to include some other browser along with IE, that probably wouldn't help Opera. Unless, of course, their actual goal is to simply force MS to bundle *their* browser. And that would seem to be a fairly ridiculous demand.
Even at version 2.0, firefox does not handle the acid 2 test, so does it mean that it should not be bundled with lets say, ubuntu or otherwise?
They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me. -Nathaniel Lee
Not true if you are talking about front-end stuff like browsing web pages. Making things up?
If you are talking about back end stuff like Windows Update, that's not even done through a web page in Vista anyway. Maybe it uses some IE components in the background but I doubt the Firefox people want to make a module to update Windows anyway and updates to the OS is Microsoft's space anyway - a basic part of the OS. Not sure what else you could be referring to. Web based Help for Windows? Same idea.
They might want to specify that Microsoft should be compelled to follow published w3c standards, not just accepted standards. The "standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities" today are pretty much "Code everything for IE6. If there's free time after that's done and the pub isn't open yet, test in Firefox"...
0 1 - just my two bits
Are there any Linux distributions that have Opera pre-installed? Most of the distributions i've used of late come with Firefox. My Nokia 770 (Linux based) came with Opera. I assumed that was because Opera has a smaller footprint than Firefox (but none too small for my 64 MB RAM (and no swap) pocket computer). However, it might be that Opera was written with GTK, or had been optimized for a stylus based user interface, or something.
-- Stephen.
Only people on acid use IE so it does indeed pass the "ACID TEST"
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
In other news:
Network companies sue Microsoft for bundling TCP/IP.
Editor companies sue Microsoft for bundling Notepad and Wordpad.
Clock software companies sue Microsoft for bundling a clock on the desktop.
And so it goes...
This is just stupid. This is not 1990. A browser is an integral part of an operating system in 2007. It's a standardized document display application. The operating system depends on it being there.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
But also require Apple to unbundle Safari from MacOSX and Redhat to unbundle Firefox from Fedora (I don't think Opera would mind either development at all). Once upon a time Microsoft killed the market for alternative commercial browsers by bundling free IE. But times have changed. These days a browser is a requirement rather than an optional add on. Unbundling it would mean that users will not be able to use their newly installed operating system at all, even to find out where to buy/download a browser.
However, OEMs should be permitted to bundle an alternative browser and de-emphasize IE by removing it from Start menu.
Apparently that has been fixed now? A change on the way Vista stores settings for default browser it seems.
[alk]
This is demonstrably false.
I have Vista and Opera, and Opera is set as default. If you click a link anywhere in Windows, it launches Opera. For example, if you get an error there is a link to an appropriate KB article on microsoft.com. Clicking this for me launches it in Opera.
The only programs I've found that don't honour the default are Yahoo Messenger and City of Heroes - apparently they prefer to hardcode to launch IE, which is their choice.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Well, I will tell you right now that this is not true. I have Firefox installed and set as my default browser right now. Any link I click on opens in Firefox, any time a program calls a default browser, Firefox opens.
There are a few rare cases when IE opens to display a website, but this is only when following a link from a really crappy program. I can only assume that this would be due to the programmer of said app hard coding the app to use IE (which is retarded, but has absolutly nothing to do with Vista). I can't even give an example of a program that acts like this, because it is so uncommon.
The easy solution rather then removing IE - why not just include two browsers on your operating system? I seriously think most users would like for the 'e' on their desktop regardless. I think a pretty interesting question would be: If MS was forced into removing their browser for some reason - what do you think they would bundle with their OS?
So tell me then... Once the OS and the Internet start to become seamless (as if they aren't aleady getting there)... Are you going to ask Microsoft to unbundle its OS from itself? This is bullshit, and I like Opera, but fuck them. And fuck the EU for even considering this. This is Microsoft's OS, and they can ship it however the hell they want. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or are you forgetting that there are actually other options, like OS X and Linux (of many flavors)?
You know what this is? It's jealousy, and it's greed. It's not ethical. It's not reasonable. And I am saying this despite the fact that I don't even like Microsoft all that much.
But people who support this bullshit, they are even worse than MS. I couldn't even begin to imagine what Microsoft would be like if it was run by people like this. You think Microsoft is bad now? ROFL.
I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
I got a great recycle bin application but no one will use it because they get one for free. Now tell me, what's a "recycle bin" got to do with operating systems?
... get a life folks.
How do I file a complaint in the EU? Do I need to be a unemployed socialist to file?
Jeeeeez- Opera is a nice browser, but not nice enough for a business model
How do you download Opera?
Yeah, that's what we need, governments enforcing coding standards.
Interesting how the generally feel of the
Just remember - if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.
I love Opera, and I use it for most of my browsing, but I think it's silly for them to try to get MS to unbundle IE or make IE conform to web standards. MS is winning the browser war only among people who don't really care that much about what browser they're using. Almost every single one of my tech-savvy friends (with a few exceptions) uses Firefox or some other alternative browser. If all of the casual internet users weren't tallied up, I'm sure Firefox and Opera would have a much greater percentage of users.
Seek and ye shall find.
Well, that's semantically weird. Why would I install another browser if I "don't want"? Or do you mean "don't want IE"?
Read TFS, at least? Here, look:
In other words, nothing to prevent them shipping Opera and/or Firefox with Windows, whether or not they unbundle IE.
And that is absolute bullshit. It is not now, and never was, "built-in to the OS".
There are quite a lot of programs that use the IE ActiveX plugin, but in almost all cases, that works perfectly well using other browser engines instead. For instance: Steam embeds IE, but I can run it on Linux and have Gecko (the Mozilla/Firefox engine) render those message-of-the-day windows.
Or maybe you're confusing Internet Explorer with Windows Explorer? Wouldn't be the first time.
I should also mention that, at least back in Windows 98, someone actually wrote some software which removes IE from the browser, which proves Microsoft was lying (and you believed them, you idiot) about Windows being so tied to IE.
If you're talking about RAM, you're a moron.
If you're talking about disk space, does that really matter, at this point? Manufacturers frequently sacrifice a few gigabytes for a "restore" partition, and Windows itself is a multi-gigabyte install. Both Firefox and Opera are about five megabytes. I imagine they spent more on Aero graphics.
Are you just an astroturfer, or do you have a point?
Microsoft should've lost the antitrust suit in the US, but then Bush got elected and the suit was "coincidentally" dropped. So give me one good reason why Opera shouldn't be doing this.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
MS is winning the browser war only because there are so many people who are don't know or don't care that there are better browsers out there. Almost every one of my tech-savvy friends uses Firefox or some other alternative browser (right now I'm using Opera). If it weren't for all of the casual internet users who don't know any better than to use IE, Firefox and Opera would represent a much greater percentage of users.
Seek and ye shall find.
How many people who use IE actually know what a "web browser" is?
I imagine most of them, upon finding a browser wasn't included with their OS, would start asking each other and their geek friends what browser to use, rather than walking right down to the store and buying IE. The reason they assume IE == Internet is because it came with their OS. As soon as they have a choice between a free download and paying for an (arguably) inferior product, which will they choose?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I won't go into wtf is wrong with that sentence, and no I didn't read the rest of the post after that but I assume it gets better: how could it get worse?
When Apple used Safari as its built-in browser (despite you can uninstall it and it's not necessary to the continued operation of the OS), they withdrew IE for Mac, complaining that there was no way they could compete with a bundled browser.
Now, IE's marketshare is around 90% of desktops. about 5% Apple. So which market is worse to be locked out of?
guess...
True! Ive set a friends default browser to Firefox and if you launch links from any windows application it still starts IE7
Secondly its not IE used internally but trident, which could be internally replaced by gecko or even better webkit (a standers compliant rendering engine)
The ideal solution would be for MS to be given a 3 years to fix IE to be standards compliant OR theyll be forced to ship a standards complient rendering engine (either in IE or in the form of a browser) and then be humiliated by having to mark IE as IE (a non standerds complient web browser)
No, they don't. However, KDE, Apple, and even Nintendo, do.
Why? Because Microsoft is a monopoly. Monopolies have to play by different rules.
Actually, it is, because I can actually uninstall Konqueror. Dolphin is the new default file manager, and nothing else requires Konqueror. I can then set Firefox or Opera as the default browser.
Now, I like Konqueror, so I keep it around, but that is fundamentally different than IE. If Dell wanted to ship Kubuntu machines with Firefox instead of Konqueror, they could do that. But Dell cannot ship Windows machines with Firefox instead of IE, because you cannot remove IE from Windows.
Isn't that a legitimate complaint?
More importantly, IE is the least standards-compliant of any browser, STILL. Isn't it damaging to the Web as a whole to have the most popular browser also be the least compliant? It's precisely because of these people you talk about that I can't simply design a page for standards -- I now have to design it once for the standards (tested in Firefox, Konqueror, Safari, and Opera), and then add in a ton of hacks to make it work in IE.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I think that Opera is seeing in the future and trying to change the approach "à la Microsoft". I mean Microsoft do it own standard and expect the industry to follow it. Opera wants that a company with this large market share should respect a known standard. So if this process is a victory for Opera, you could expect the EU to ask Microsoft to make office conform to a open accepted standard, like Open Document Format. I think Opera have a very thin line to follow but i they have very good lawyers they could succeed. It's time Microsoft get into the line with the others. I don't think also that following standards forbid a company to innovate, they can make innovation and also respects the standards.
If IE was not an overwhelming majority of the browser market, or if IE was forced to comply with standards, Opera would both have to spend less time dealing with web quirks (and just tell non-standard sites to fuck off), and web sites would more likely work with Opera, which increases Opera's value.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
How do you Brits feel about your sovereignty being signed away today on what is essentially a repackaged EU Constitution which you already rejected?
This may be regarded as the Fundamental Flaw of Monopolies.
"But it's so Convenient/The Consumer is Smart Enough/1 Stop Shopping/Ma Bell Loves You"
When a company gets too big, it sits like a Blob on top of would-be innovative companies, and except for a fluke, will never go away.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Your entire comment is verifiably false. Stop bullshitting, and shame on the mods who upmodded this without checking their facts.
Do we really want the courts to decide which web standards to use? The web dev community can't even decide this. Wouldn't it be best to leave this question to the community?
No iexplore.exe in my process list.
Of course I do not have a check on the program access and defaults option for Internet explorer.
However the nachine still uses the iexplorer dlls for many things, and autmatic updates are problematic on this machine, but I am not worried about that - I do my updates manually ( but even that has been problematic with my settings).
Firefox 3 will pass the acid 2 test. You can try a nightly build if your curious and flame me later if it's currently broken. I believe Firefox 1.0 through 2.0 used the same Gecko branch (1.8?) which was why there weren't very many display changes between the browser versions. Firefox 3 will use Gecko 1.9.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
It's called "Patent", "Copyright" and "Trademark".
So how about a little less intervention, eh?
Once the OS and the Internet start to become seamless (as if they aren't aleady getting there)... Are you going to ask Microsoft to unbundle its OS from itself? This has nothing to do with removing networking capabilities from the OS, but everything to do with unbundling the web browser (Internet Explorer).
Just out of curiosity, what rock have you been living under? To begin with, Microsoft has been found both in the U.S. and EU courts to have a legally defined monopoly for OS and office productivity suite software. In both cases, having such a monopoly in and of itself is not considered to be illegal. However, once such a legal finding has been upheld, the company holding such a monopoly finds itself under _very_ different rules regarding its behavior. For example, it is certainly illegal in the U.S. to leverage one's monopoly position to seize control of another market. Merging the browser into the OS is /exactly/ what the original court case in the U.S. accused them of doing. You might remember that they lost that case.
In addition, anyone who has worked in IT for more than 5 years has seen the kind of crap that Microsoft has pulled routinely. I've watched them since they first released MS Basic (which some contend was developed at least partially on stolen computer time at Harvard). You want to talk about unethical, immoral, illegal behavior? Microsoft is the current, repeating, and undisputed champ! They've lost so many egregious court cases that simply cataloging them all takes far more time than I have to devote to this post.
It's gotten to the point that I automatically assume Microsoft's guilt whenever I hear of another court case. It's a very rare day when they win any other way than wearing down their opponent.
Slight correction: Apparently Firefox 1.0 used Gecko 1.0. I finally found a page that lists Firefox versions against Gecko versions.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
What, Windows doesn't have a package manager? Surely you're joking...
What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
Recall the victory Sun had with its case against Microsoft's implementation of Java. I understand the argument was that Microsoft's incompatible changes in their implementation of Java damaged the purpose and intent of Sun's Java.
Microsoft's incompatible implementation of W3C standards has caused enormous harm to the web community at large and individually damages other players in the web client market. Their monopoly position gives them an unfair advantage in that even though they choose not to adhere to standards, the general public does not understand this fact and often has no choice in that fact.
So this isn't merely a case where "cry-baby web developers" have to do more work. This represents damage to the progress of the public internet's development where ultimately, Microsoft is once again abusing their monopoly position to strip power away from the various international bodies that create and set standards for the public internet by using their defacto standard [monopoly] position to over-ride all of the decisions made by the standards bodies.
Steam also hardcodes IE.
In general I find that a very small minority of good programs hardcode it, and a very large number of extremely shitty programs hardcode it.
It's also a way to point out to the uninformed masses that Opera is the only browser for Windows right now that passes the Acid2 test.
And apart from a relatively small number of people who develop web sites, no-one cares, because many of the technicalities in Acid2 are more about what your browser does with bad data it should never get in the first place from a well-designed web site. However, many people care that right now IE displays, say, their bank's web site properly while $SOME_ALTERNATIVE_BROWSER does not.
I would be very disturbed if the standards element of the lawsuit (assuming the summary given is accurate) gets anywhere. That would imply that the recommendation of a group of unelected people in a self-appointed standards body can legally compel an organisation with 80+% market share to change anything about how its wildly successful product works to benefit inferior (according to the market) competitors. What legal or ethical basis is there for such compulsion?
Challenging potential monopoly abuse and market distortion is reasonable. Complaining about a successful business not choosing to follow the recommendations of anyone much less successful's document for anything is a very dangerous path to tread.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
They might want to specify that Microsoft should be compelled to follow published w3c standards, not just accepted standards. The "standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities" today are pretty much "Code everything for IE6. If there's free time after that's done and the pub isn't open yet, test in Firefox"...
There are usually loopholes in such specs such that if MS is forced to follow a written standard, they might retaliate using creative interpretations of the standard that will clog up courts for many years. MS is a master at that.
I remember the long messy debates over the meaning of "integrated", one word. Imagine a Beowulf cluster of such problems.
Table-ized A.I.
I see a lot of negative mod-up-insightful posts here. I really can't be bothered refuting them all. Cmdrtaco is this what slashdot is reduced to, a platfrom for the MS astroturfing department?
..
..
Like take this comment could be taken straight from the MS legal brief:
"A browser is an integral part of an operating system in 2007. It's a standardized document display application. The operating system depends on it being there" Reality Master 101 (Score:2, Insightful) HAA
The submissions firehose system is also being totally abused. Stories being buried almost instantly
davecb5620@gmail.com
I think I figured out how we code around this. First we need an algorithm to determine usefulness of stored files. It would categorize them by last modification date, whether an application exists to open them or not, and total amount of modification time. Using these guidelines, a special type of shortcut will be created in a folder on the desktop called, "Items candidate for deletion when required". The only way to get items out of the folder will be by pressing the delete key after selecting them. The OS will then make note of this in a special white list.
Then, when the magical time comes when your disk becomes full, windows can pop up a dialog along the lines of:
Your hard drive is running out of space which is needed for the next operation (copy). Windows has designated some files as being less important to you. Do you mind if DX10 setup.exe is deleted? This operation is not reversable.
[Yes][No][Cancel]
Repeat the previous dialog on the next file in "Items candidate for deletion when required" until there is enough space or the user cancels.
So....anyone else have any bright ideas?Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
'wasn't aware anyone still used Windows.
A look at the Amazon top sellers list shows no machines that run Windows.
It has only the Nokia Internet tablet (with Opera), Mac's, and the Eee PC.
You may rate this as a troll from now until the last Windows machine freezes up, but what I say about the top sellers list is fact, not troll.
First of all, even Firefox 2 can't handle the Acid 2 test, so I have to wonder exactly how significant is this test? At the same time, Firefox comes close. Second, I want to report that IE 6 can indeed properly display the reference image.
Why can't they bundle the Lynx browser? They are afraid of Lynx becoming the de facto browser for thousands of graphically challenged computers that's why!
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
IE provides an HTML Rendering COM Server to be embedded by any application on Windows. To remove IE (the part that does all the actual HTML Rendering) would break hundreds, if not thousands of applications. Internet Explorer also provides support for asynchronus pluggable protocols, which would break a whole slew of other applications if it was just ripped out.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
you might give it a try since 9.x has come out--the rendering engine is substantially better. I've used it since 7.5 or so. 8.x was a big improvement, and the 9 series is even better. I still occasionally have problems, but the greatest problem I have has everything to do with incompetent web programming...a site I use several times a week doesn't work in Opera or FF. IE, only. ugh.
First of all, complain to the OEMS. They are the ones that can unbundle IE from the OS and install your browser if you can strike a deal with them. Microsoft is under no obligation to include competitor software on a CD they publish and distribute (unless Opera wants to pay them to do so).
Secondly, the EU is in no position to try to enforce MS to using international standards. That's Microsoft's choice. If they want to go propietary, let them and compete on your own merits.
They're complaining to the wrong people about the wrong items. Christ, this ticks me off enough that I'm actually thinking of sending a nastygram to Opera.
Trolling the trolls - but at least you have a name. My personal experience: I use Opera as my main browser, every day of the week, for 10+ hour workdays. Personal use includes a half-dozen online banks, travel sites, Wikipedia, Youtube, etc. I do not have to switch into IE for anything.
I call shenanigans.
Well, Firefox 2.0.0.11 doesn't pass Acid2 either....
McDonalds is suing Burger King for bundling BK fries in their combo meals. Claim that in a free market world, consumers should have a choice of McD fries or even Wendy's fries and that bundling proprietary fries should be illegal.
"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything."
No, it doesn't. I've had Steam launch URLs in Firefox under Vista plenty of times.
However, what it DOES do is embed IE into the application. If you click on a link in the embedded IE to open a new window, it will open it in a new IE window. Which, arguably, it should, because you were using IE at the time. Causing those links to open in the default browser involves trapping all new window events and forwarding them to the default browser.
They'll just have to design their OS so that the browser can be switched. Almost all other OSes can do this so it cannot be that hard to do. And as long as Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems in EU, they do need to be very careful when bundling software to Windows (and probably Office too). If Microsoft doesn't like the laws in the EU, they don't have to do business there. There are other countries to do business with.
- Raynet --> .
From the Opera press release:
Unbundling IE doesn't necessarily mean shipping an OS without a browser. If IE is an optional component, OEMs could still preinstall one browser or another. Even Opera is taking into account the fact that removing IE entirely might not be feasible, and suggesting that the system come with at least one alternative.
I agree that an OS needs to ship with a web browser. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a specific browser except for company policy. Witness Apple replacing IE with Safari, or Red Hat replacing Mozilla with Firefox, etc.
Linux is more linux-like than Microsoft could ever be... There's a reason Microsoft is the dominant OS : that's what customers want.
Is Microsoft superior to Linux? Nope. Is Microsoft answering the basic needs of millions of customers better than Linux? Obviously.
Has anyone bothered asking customers whether they want IE bundled with Windows? I'm sure not because it's so painfully obvious they do. Alternatives do exist out there, but customers are massively choosing Windows and IE. Respect this.
Slight correction to the slight correction: Firefox 1.0 used Gecko 1.7.
(I assume it was a typo, but in case anyone's reading this and doesn't click on the link...)
To sum up:
Firefox 1 used Gecko 1.7
Firefox 1.5 and 2 used Gecko 1.8
Firefox 3 uses Gecko 1.9
Tinyme, a lite version of PCLinuxOS, has Opera pre-installed.
Disclaimer: I'm an Opera fan. I'm currently using Opera 9.5 build 9665.
Opera is absolutely faster than anything else in Javascript and rendering speed.
However its CSS support is not perfect. The ACID2 test is not really useful to test CSS completeness.
If you see the list here: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20061011/index.xht
try this test:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20061011/html4/t040103-ident-03-c.htm
or this:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20061011/html4/t040105-import-01-b.htm
or this:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20061011/html4/t040302-c61-ex-len-00-b-a.htm
or this:
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20061011/html4/t040302-c61-rel-len-00-b-ag.htm
My point is: The ACID2 test is meaningless. Opera should strive for total completeness of the standard. I demand nothing less from my chosen browser.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
Although one might note, it is a choice facilitated by the fact that those developers can count on IE being installed on every copy of Windows, and cannot count on other browsers. I suspect if OEMs had a choice and shipped with different, default browsers installed, developers would stop hard coding the browser and use the proper method, pretty quickly.
Think about it (regardless of what evil can be said of Microsoft and their products) : What would Toyota do (which has a very large market share in my country) if Bridgestone sued them for distributing their popular Aygo with Michelin tires ? "Either you distribute the Aygo with all tire brands, or no tires at all!" Whaa ?
I find their motivation flawed and their sense of sensible spending of taxpayers money seriously lacking.
There are two parts to this, not just the bundling, which to me seems secondary to Microsoft's standards compliance (or lack of such).
Clever signature text goes here.
So, did Opera also file a complaint so that Apple would unbundle Safari from OSX, or so Teh Lunix would unbundle Mozilla (or whatever the shit they use) from Teh Lunix?
If not, Opera's filing is without merit and blatantly hypocritical.
It's not Microsoft's fault nobody wants teh Opera browser. They may not have noticed when Netscape went out of business a few years before they even started their company and had to make their buggy code Open Source in a desperate attempt to compete in some kind of form.
But whatevs. This is absurd. There's absolutely no reason a modern computer operating system should be shipping without a web browser. Hey Opera, 1980 called, they want their business model back.
"Web pages that don't work with IE are thus by definition broken, as they don't comply with the de facto standard, whereas those that do work with IE aren't broken."
The good thing these days, and the reason you're wrong, is that www standards are not being widely ignored. Yes, people will make any exception the get it working with IE, but those are going in the "<!-- IE Workaraound" section now. The "IE standard" truly is deprecated, and only the monopoly props it up. It's been a long time since I haven't had a web page work in FF. Apparently the new de facto standard is one that you didn't see coming.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
Your point makes no sense, by the next year most workstations will support cursor positioning anyway.
MSN Messenger does the same for some links, like user profiles.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
But other TCP/IP vendors aren't forced by monopoly-bent market to implement MSTCP/sortof-IP.
Opera would not complain if IE's brokenness didn't cause so many IE-only websites to be created (it's not even ActiveX issue, most of them don't use anything special, just rely on numerous IE bugs being present).
Because there are IE-only websites, Opera cannot compete by implementing open standards, but are forced to reverse-engineer and re-implement each and every IE bug. We'd probably have CSS4 by now, if other browser vendors didn't have to disassemble and implement "MSCSS" in the meantime.
It's called "File Transfer Protocol".
ftp.
sheesh!
MSN Messenger will load URLs in Internet Explorer even if another browser has been set to be the default.
9.x is better? Maybe I should give it another look, it's been awhile...
BTW I wasn't "trolling."
I've recently come across several .mht web pages which are produced using microsoft software but I'm not able to open these pages using my firefox/linux system.
yeah, I think it's incrementally better...not scads, but certainly an improvement.
What happens when IE is updated? I remember in XP it always installed the icon just about everywhere even if I had removed and tried to make it go away (from the useless "default programs" utility in Windows). MS is forcing it on you no matter what. Besides you still have to keep it up-to-date even though you do not use it.
Now this argument may be a little less relevant now that its 2007, but IE is 85% ish of the market share. many browsers complain that Microsoft doesnt comply with web standards, but I have a few basic issues with this premise.
.NET . From that created the need to run these applications, and this is where windows developed. the same thing holds for IE. They tried to develop web technologies that were easy to develop (at least in their eyes). The industry embraced them and things ran better on IE. It was in their interest to give the public a way to view these web developments. So bundling of IE was necessary and it was more important that IE is compatible with Microsoft technologies than web standards. Remember Microsoft doesn't make Money off of IE, they make the money on selling High Margin development software to Businesses.
1. Web Standards are a moving target, what may be compliant in 2007 will not be complaint 3 years from now. A company that moves as slow as Microsoft shouldn't be penalized for not incorporating them the instant they develop. If anything you could theoretically commend them for waiting to see which ones are important and relevant and stand the test of time. Examples...Frames? - I could argue both ways on this one so don't crucify me its merely a discussion point
2. When you are 85% of the market share and you dont get a voice in the development of the standards, its not your interest to follow them in the first place. I personally deal with this periodically in my job. We have to comply to ANSI standards, the standards committee is made up of us and all our competitors. When market share is balanced the concept works well. We usually benefit from following the standard. However, when a new technology or idea comes along that doesnt meet the standard or bends the standard it is usually met with staunch resistance from the body. One because it presents a competitive threat, and the second is it breaks the status quo. In the case of Microsoft they sell software, but mainly technologies built with software. Their technologies and development software is some of the best in the industry and really improves productivity and lowers development costs. Their technologies are not perfect and have their issues, but they make development easy and save a company tons of money. Some of these technologies violate standards. I dont think Microsoft should be penalized for that, because i think we loose sight of the fact of why Microsoft is #1. Its a two fold issue, we tend to focus on the fact that everyone runs windows, but...everyone also develops using Microsoft software. You can say all you want and we can argue a chicken and egg problem all day, but Microsoft built its empire not on windows, but on its ability to create technologies that make development easy. Example QBASIC, Visual Basic, and
So a huge rabbit trail, but I think this standards thing is just a way for Opera to use the courts to leverage Market Share in its favor. Its a shame.
Sony and Panasonic/Matsushita should follow suit and take on GM and Toyota for "bundling" stereo systems with their cars and trucks.
One can't let their distaste for Microsoft to interfere with the realization that many of these "antitrust" cases are unwarranted, would be laughable in any industry other than tech, and risk setting dangerous precedents that will ultimately disadvantage consumers everywhere.
There isn't a worthwhile OS out there that doesn't come pre-bundled with a web browser or media player these days, just like there isn't a decent consumer-level camera produced today that doesn't come pre-bundled with a flash (before the EU was around to defend flash/accessory manufacturers and prevent this travesty). From a business perspective, Microsoft (and Apple, and the leading Linux distros) are delivering value by bundling useful products/features that go hand in hand with their core OS offering, and are ultimately innovating and improving on the concept of what constitutes a "complete" operating system solution. GM and Toyota aren't really doing much different when bundling stereo systems and air conditioners with their products.
Sure, the software business has standards that in an ideal world should be followed. But initiatives like the Mozilla Foundation (whose goal, along with making millions from Google, is to dominate enough of the browser market with a standards-focused offering that web designers have no choice but to accommodate such standards) will be far more effective and less damaging than serving token penalties dished out to the one software company everyone loves to hate. (Note: yes, I realize Firefox does not yet pass the Acid test, however in almost every realistic application it is a standards-based browser, hence my use of the term 'standards-focused').
Ultimately I don't think senior-aged EU regulators and lawyers that have trouble operating their televisions and cell phones have any business interfering with the tech industry.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
KDE comes with konqueror and that's great. Will opera also send them lawyers??? I used to be a opera fan, but I promise not to use it not a single time any more. you can't apply some laws to microsoft, and some others for other company, that's not democracy. Laws are the same for everybody, and it doesn't matter who it is. Opera wants to restrict our right of having Windows with IE installed, what if we continue in the same path? The only SO possible in the future will be console only and we would need to pay an expert to install all what we need to have it complete. Do you think that in the future OS will come without Internet Browsers????? Everything will come with a browser, from a TV to your refrigerator.
That is to say, "they all do it."
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Obviously I and millions of others disagree with the current /. groupthink. IE doesn't seem broken to me. While I don't use it as my primary browser it does provide an adequate browsing experience for when I do use it.
I decided to put the 4 browsers I use to the acid2 test.
IE 7- failed
Firefox 2(both on WinXP and RHEL 5) - failed
Seamonkey 1.1.7 (RHEL 5 only) - failed
Konqueror 3.5.4 (RHEL 5) - passed
Now of the 4 (5 if you count browser & OS combos), the only one that passed the acid2 test is the only one I find to be woefully inadequate for daily web browsing.
These folks screaming that IE is "broken" frankly are coming off as a little insane to me. Since by their same logic, firefox and seamonkey are also broken. Only for some arcane definition of "broken" is that true.
As a web developer, I don't code for IE as it will handle almost anything. I do code for Firefox (and in the past I coded for Netscape) since it seems not to be able to handle code as well as IE. When I'm done making it look perfect in FF, I look at it in IE. At most I'll have a couple of minor tweaks to make. Maybe having to code specifically for FF means it is "broken," but I think it is more that it is just different. Broken implies it doesn't work and in the case of FF and Seamonkey they almost always provide a superior browsing experience.
So really the only thing that is broken is the Opera's folks view of reality.
standby for all the mod trolls .. atn: Rob Malda (Score:1, Offtopic)
davecb5620@gmail.com
and remind me again whether Opera works with update.microsoft.com?
1) Once you have standards compliance, innovation (at that level) goes away. Innovation happens above standards - do we want to halt web-presentation innovation? I certainly don't think it's good enough yet.
2) Aren't the "standards" published by the W3C actually "recommendations"? What's with the desire for W3C police?
3) Which version of IE? XP/Vista & IE7 are result of unbundling. Oddly, Win98 & IE5 are still bundled.
4) AFAIK, IE is the only decent "corporate" browser - boon and bane of IT department's internal webapps. That is is also a consumer browser (that ya'll report to be a 'a poor one') is a nice by-product.
5) And how good can the standard be if 0% of browsers are fully compliant and don't extend them in breaking ways?
6) Apple and Nintendo are indeed Monopolies, depending on how you draw the circle around them. They just aren't rich or irritating enough to be chased.
I must need more caffine. Resume your whining.
It is part of an operating system's features to include basic functionality.
In mac this means quicktime, safari, ichat, text edit, activity monitor, ilife, etc.
in windows this means windows media player, internet explorer, windows messenger, task manager, note pad, etc.
There has to be a line drawn somewhere, because I doubt ANYBODY likes the idea of having to download multiple gigs of their default OS piece by piece.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
This is because you installed Opera, and you've set it as the default Web Browsing application. It's in the Control Panel, Programs and Features.
In Windows Vista (any flavor), you can uninstall Internet Explorer. You couldn't do this on previous Windows versions, because Internet Explorer was integrated into the OS.
What Opera wants, is that Internet Explorer shouldn't be Windows default browser, and the end user needs to chose his own browser, or any flavor of many, which is a good thing, because it would drop Internet Explorer users using Vista to something relatively low. (if none.)
And being forced to keep software that I never want to use is BAD practice.
I should NOT be forced to have a piece of software installed that is not critical to the functionality of the OS.
I use Firefox to browse. I don't want IE on my system. At all. If I could remove it entirely, I wouldn't have to worry about security holes, updates, patches, interoperability.
AFAIK, there is no way to entirely remove IE from Vista. And this is just sheer marketing stupidity by Microsoft.
Windows Update is a separate program in Vista so it doesn't work with either.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Actually, if you read below, there is a way of uninstalling it.
.NET.
Like it or not, programs coded for Vista sometimes do use Internet Explorer or at least the Trident engine, thus keeping it up to date is just as critical as a program that uses DirectX or
So, just because you don't want to use it, doesn't mean you won't end up using it anyway.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Why doesn't Opera show how "superior" they are by creating their own OS and bundling Opera with it. Maybe they could complain about Linux bundling Konqeror or Mac bundling Safari. Two quote a really lame song from Justin Timberlake "Cry me a river"
"During My Service In The United States Congress, I Took The Initiative In Creating The Internet." -Al Gore
Extending--as long as it doesn't break other things--isn't really a problem as much as not implementing part of the standard (or worse implementing it wrongly) is.
What do you mean by corporate browser?
look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
I'll try to duck the spittle and bile and address the argument directly.
... what Microsoft would be like if it was run by people like this"
"It's jealousy, and it's greed."
Which is exactly the motivation to fight a competitor. If companies weren't jelous of and greedy for the money made by another, we wouldn't get better products and services.
"It's not ethical. It's not reasonable."; "fuck the EU for even considering this"
They appear to be following all the proper judicial procedures. Opera Software is not committing any illegal acts. They're pursuing legal recourse for a perceived grievance, not bombing Microsoft's offices. Looks like the paragon of ethics and reasonability.
"This is Microsoft's OS, and they can ship it however the hell they want. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Or are you forgetting that there are actually other options..."
This is exactly the situation that is different for a monopoly, explaining why many bodies that govern economic action, like the EU, have laws to appeal to. This means that Microsoft cannot do whatever "the hell they want" any more than the grocery store can sell ebola-laced beef. We regulate economic action for our best interests.
"they are even worse than MS
Microsoft has been convicted of various crimes in various jurisdictions, including the US and the EU. Opera has not, and appears to have no such black marks on its record. I do not see how its attempts at legal recourse he are worse.
Despite yourself, I think you're right that MS would be scary if it were run like Opera. Its illegal actions have caused significant damage to its financial position. If I were a stockholder, I'd love to have that massive EU fine dispersed in a dividend. And I'd be enamored with MS adopting anything close to Opera's quality of software engineering-- with MS' market position, it'd be unstoppable.